Kansas vs Duke Game Thread:
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@jayballer73 padding his stats w/misses
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Well, it’s nice to be old enough to know this game won’t mean much in the grand scheme of things. Honestly, we deserved to lose. But Duke really did too.
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jayballer73 said:
DanR said:
Not trying to pile on Dave, but just thinking back to some wasted possessions in the last 3 minutes… illegal screen, stupid bounce pass to Doke. Clanked followup on Garret’s miss. Love the dude, but not the guy I want involved in clutch time compared to pretty much anyone else on the team.
Career High and team leading 13 rebounds
And? If Self goes back to the 2 big lineup this team WILL NOT reach its potential. This isnt 2010. Our bigs will get exposed on d all season.
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@DanR Agreed. This is almost like a practice game. Good for the film room to teach. We will improve from this. We’ve seen some ugly openers in this thing in past years and recovered.
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Devonte Graham scored 35 tonight in an overtime loss.
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I think Silvio’s impact was greatly overstated. I’m sure he’s rusty but he didn’t show much of anything tonight. He might not see very many minutes.
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BigBad said:
jayballer73 said:
DanR said:
Not trying to pile on Dave, but just thinking back to some wasted possessions in the last 3 minutes… illegal screen, stupid bounce pass to Doke. Clanked followup on Garret’s miss. Love the dude, but not the guy I want involved in clutch time compared to pretty much anyone else on the team.
Career High and team leading 13 rebounds
And? If Self goes back to the 2 big lineup this team WILL NOT reach its potential. This isnt 2010. Our bigs will get exposed on d all season.
Uhhh… we were lights out on defense… their only offense was our offense.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@jayballer73 padding his stats w/misses
Or OR OR maybe - - just maybe rebounding other guys misses when we could actually get a shot up WITHOUT turning the ball over
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BigBad said:
jayballer73 said:
DanR said:
Not trying to pile on Dave, but just thinking back to some wasted possessions in the last 3 minutes… illegal screen, stupid bounce pass to Doke. Clanked followup on Garret’s miss. Love the dude, but not the guy I want involved in clutch time compared to pretty much anyone else on the team.
Career High and team leading 13 rebounds
And? If Self goes back to the 2 big lineup this team WILL NOT reach its potential. This isn’t 2010. Our Big’s will get exposed on d all season.
if you notice and or Heard Self he said that he thought Dave did a pretty decent job in the open floor. - - having 2 Big’s - WAS NOT the reason we lost this game - - - believe that - -when the other team gets up 14 more shots then you because of your turnovers - -When your main Big man only get 4 shot attempts for the ENTIRE game and you lose by two - -IS NOT because of having two Big’s on the floor -that’s a pretty good AND?
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jayballer73 said:
BigBad said:
jayballer73 said:
DanR said:
Not trying to pile on Dave, but just thinking back to some wasted possessions in the last 3 minutes… illegal screen, stupid bounce pass to Doke. Clanked followup on Garret’s miss. Love the dude, but not the guy I want involved in clutch time compared to pretty much anyone else on the team.
Career High and team leading 13 rebounds
And? If Self goes back to the 2 big lineup this team WILL NOT reach its potential. This isn’t 2010. Our Big’s will get exposed on d all season.
if you notice and or Heard Self he said that he thought Dave did a pretty decent job in the open floor. - - having 2 Big’s - WAS NOT the reason we lost this game - - - believe that - -when the other team gets up 14 more shots then you because of your turnovers - -When your main Big man only get 4 shot attempts for the ENTIRE game and you lose by two - -IS NOT because of having two Big’s on the floor -that’s a pretty good AND?
100% YES ABSOLUTELY
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Idk a starting line-up with three guys that can’t shoot sure doesn’t help. That said we did see that bully ball can work, gotta clean up the TOs.
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@BShark which 3, I got 4
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And we didn’t even have our best shooter.
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I cooled down after a shower, I got a little heated there sorry folks. Just disappointed in the last few days here. Lost a game we thought would be a good one Saturday, then complete blow this game with turnovers. Rough week for the hawks.
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kjayhawks said:
I cooled down after a shower, I got a little heated there sorry folks. Just disappointed in the last few days here. Lost a game we thought would be a good one Saturday, then complete blow this game with turnovers. Rough week for the hawks.
Saturday is on you a bit I think, though you are not alone, many got tricked. I expected KSU to roll as this is far from my first rodeo.
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I’m not seeing the big improvement of Dave. You guys?
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@BShark I wouldn’t say I was bold enough to predict victory, just wanted a game in a packed house. I never saw 28 turnovers coming tonight tho. Not with with Dook have freshman. It like the roles were flipped tonight. We played like freshman especially in transition.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
I’m not seeing the big improvement of Dave. You guys?
One game and he barely played last year. I think he will be fine but we have too many 5s. I think both him and Doke would do better as the lone true post player.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I thought he was okay, had a couple bad turnovers on a night that everyone wearing blue did as well. I love how strong he is on the glass. He needs to stop shooting jumpers if he can’t hit them tho, his shot reminds me of Cole Aldrich behind the head ugliness.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
I’m not seeing the big improvement of Dave. You guys?
Oh I see it. Can’t teach his motor. He’s just a bit late on a lot of plays now where even thinking of making the pass wouldn’t cross his mind a year ago.
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@FarmerJayhawk What do you make of the Silvio situation? Seems like Bill is pissed at him.
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@BShark he even stated that, not pissed but you know
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BShark said:
@FarmerJayhawk What do you make of the Silvio situation? Seems like Bill is pissed at him.
Honestly I think Silvio is playing like a true freshman. He made some super effort plays but wasn’t that sound. 4 boards in 7 minutes is awesome. Good FT shooter. But missed some bunnies (0-3 shooting) and just never got in rhythm. Needs reps between Friday and legit games in Maui.
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Silvio just doesn’t add anything that Doke and Dave don’t already do. Everyone kept talking about how he was developing this mid range jumper but we didn’t see it. He couldn’t finish around the rim and doesn’t hustle as much as Dave. Right now he is clearly #3 in that rotation if we go to 4 guards. I honestly wouldn’t be shocked if he only plays 10-15 MPG at this point.
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The last dook hero gets it https://twitter.com/iammaliknewman/status/1191907032594616320?s=21
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Bill, “I think we made easy plays difficult.” Exactly. Not like we played out of our skulls and lost. We threw our D game and lost by 2. Probably played a B+ game on defense and a F——- on offense. We raise the offense to a D and we win by 10.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
And we didn’t even have our best shooter.
Yeah where was Moss?
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@chriz hamstring pull. Self said he’s only practiced one day since he started here.
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I don’t think a 2-point loss to a good Duke team is going to ruin the season. We have a lot of things we can work on and a lot of things we can get better at. I believe we can get to April if we can avoid turning the ball over 28 times in a game.
On to the next game. Let’s learn from this and keep getting better.
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A lot of time over the next three games to get healthy, correct some stuff and try to figure out rotations.
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Lol Illinois most to Nicholls at home. CC: Adam Miller
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The bread and butter of 2 bigs and selfs high low was predicated in having a 4 that could at least shoot to 15 feet. None of the 3 bigs can do that. The reason doke didn’t get many shots is because there wasn’t room. Nobody respects our 4s range and if Garrett is in with them forget it. This team need to go 4 and 1 and rotate the 3 bigs. I guarantee we evolve that way.
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How I miss the clutch guys… Devonte Graham, Frank Mason III, Cole Aldrich, Jeff Withey and Thomas Robinson.
I don’t know whether to view tonight’s game as glass half full (27 turnovers and only lost by 2) or glass half empty (27 turnovers represents our skill level)
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@bskeet We turned it over 28 times and only lost by 2 to a pretty good team. I’m going with glass half full. Turnovers can be corrected.
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I feel like we had 6 or 7 turnovers in transition. A could of times Ochai had an easy layup or dunk that he passed away.
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kjayhawks said:
I feel like we had 6 or 7 turnovers in transition. A could of times Ochai had an easy layup or dunk that he passed away.
Ochai is a bad passer and Dotson low key isn’t too great at it.
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This team has to go with the 4 best shooters and Doke period. Aside from Dotson leading like Frank or Devonte, how fast Enaruna can gain Self’s trust may be the most important element to this team.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich “turnovers can be corrected”
I hope you’re right. The turnovers I saw last night were stupid and I’ve always heard you can’t fix stupid.
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@nuleafjhawk that’s the trouble with yes Dooks pressure was good but so many of them were grade school type of plays.
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We were out-coached in this one. We didn’t come prepared, and we have enough experienced players that we should have been better prepared.
We should have had more plays to work from so the game would have been better scripted to beat a defense that was allowed to completely overplay the passing lanes and double down on Doke.
For example, if we are going to count on some form of a hi-lo then we need to isolate Doke. Make it much harder for him to get doubled. Heck, Duke was doing that to us and they almost fouled out Doke.
We all know both David and Silvio are weak on perimeter defense. They can compensate by playing out tighter to use ball denial. And if they play out tight, if their man drives past them he will have to face Doke in the paint.
Funny that we played a game where our guys played tentative, trying not to make a mistake, and that style actually pushed them into more mistakes. The way to beat aggressive defense is to attack it. So we would drive the ball and blow by defenders then immediately stop and pick up the ball and then get pinched. That made no sense at all. Our guards need to finish at the rim after they blow by. Marcus was the only one that understood that.
Except for a few minutes in the second half, Duke controlled this game and deserved to win.
This isn’t a team that will do well playing free style. This team will need to run more off a script. The good news is that we have the personnel to be very effective off a script.
The loss may help us more than if we scored 4 more points and won a nail-biter. Keep building chip!
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@drgnslayr I’m not a basketball guru - just a fan, but I’ve always felt like we’re a better team without Doke in the lineup. His turnovers and lack of FT shooting ability really hamstring us. I have nothing against him, he seems like a super nice kid, I just think he’s a terrible basketball player. Every time he matches up against another 7 footer (or close) he gets embarrassed.
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A few very negative things that I saw last night.
Dotson was timid being defended against Jones. Jones really seemed to rattle his ability to run the offense the way we know Dotson can. If I was a scout seeing that game I would be deeply concerned about Devon leaving after the year. Of course there will be 30+ more games for him to prove otherwise but the man that’s supposed to lead the troops was taken out of his comfort. He may not be 100% as well but he’s going to have to do a better job leading this group against the better teams. This was more or less the opposite of how he played last year in the Champions Classic.
The turnovers were atrocious. To even lose in single digits after an almost school record amount is quite remarkable. I think that shows how average Duke is right now more then anything that they couldn’t pull away after getting 28 empty possessions from KU. I get the stage was bright but we saw a lot of careless mistakes. Up 9 in the early to middle stages of the 2nd half with all the momentum and Duke gets a pair of 3 pointers and then 3 consecutive inexplicable turnovers ruin it all. That was the turning point of the game momentum wise. KU could have blown it open. It was game 1 but to me this was biggest negative we could see all season long. The lack of chemistry and value of the ball was on full display.
What to do with Doke? He had no clue what to do with double teams or the awareness on how to make the defense pay. As much value as he’s provided at times in his career and the numbers clearly back that up, last night was a major step back for him. Rusty? I don’t know he definitely wasn’t aggressive fighting the double teams and at his size he gave all the advantage to Duke.
Moss’s absence. According to Synergy Moss was in the 99th percentile for spot up shooting. He has to get healthy and give this team a deep threat. Ochai cannot do it alone. Might be the entire key to opening up what was one of the worst offensive performances I’ve ever seen. Just having a shooter on the floor would limit how many double teams Doke sees and the way defenses can stop this offense from punishing them.
One major positive, the defense was solid last night. We can put out big lineups that force easy shots to become difficult. I thought KU had a good defensive gameplan besides some lapses on Carey and Hurt from the perimeter. This years defense looks promising.
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Duke defended a Doke high pick and roll perfectly. They doubled the ball handler and left Doke alone. They knew they he couldn’t take advantage of the space that far away and that their defense could meet him far enough from the basket so he couldn’t just dunk it. When this happened with Dotson it was a real effort to pass around/over the two defenders which always gave duke enough time to recover.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
And we didn’t even have our best shooter.
yet another way to look at it - - Moss which from everything I’ve heard probably going to be our best 3 pt shooter - - no Moss - - 28 turnovers - - our main Big only 4 shot attempts – and LOSE by only 2 - -not THAT concerned. - -for sure need work to do taking a lot beter control of ball - -but I mean 1st game of the year.
look at it this way - -they talking about how deep we are and all that jibber jabber & it’s true BUT -no matter how you want to twist - - turn & kick it - - Bottom line is were still a pretty young team ourself.
Dotson - -Soph - - McCormack - - Soph - - -Abaji - -Soph - - Desousa - - been inactive for year - - rusty as hell. - -Ya , Ya, I know Dotson been starting - and all that garbage - -at times not going to mean squat - -this was one of those times. - - As lousy as we played it was TWO points - -1st game.
It just stuns me how all the Coach cushion Beer drinking Pretzel eating arm chair Coach’s pop up - - talking smack - -all what the F- - - is Self doing? - - Time for Coaching Change - -Self should of done this – Self should of done that – Self - - Self - - Self. - -I know we got a 1001 Arm Chair Coachs that are un-defeated and always have that PERFECT play call - -bout makes me sick.
I’ve always said to these people , but don’t think any have ever taken me up on it YET. - -if your that great of Coach - - you got the answers - - plays situtions - -for every circumstance - - every game ? - -The solution is quite simple - -how bout you just trot your your happy little fat as right on down to the athletic dept Beer in one hand - - hoagie in the other , and a bag of pretzels stripped to your belt and put in your resume - tell them your ready to take over help out - - HELL we won’t ever have anything to worry about - - just have them Fed-E us the NCAA trophy for the res of our lives - -we got THE COACH.
it’s stone funny really- -I mean holy fricken crap -some people think things are the end of KU basketball because we lost a game. - -let’s see- -how did that Kentucky/Michigan State game turn out? - -wonder what those fans are thinking? - -Wonder where the arm chair Coach’s hide when we rip off 10-11-12 wins in a row - -where they are at when we won 14 straight conference championships? - - wonder if these Coach’s do realize that Calipari hasn’t won any more titles then KU has in the same length of time? - thingsthat make a guy go hmmmmm. - -Ok I’m done – have a great day lmao. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Hey doke was 2 for 3 from the line. Spacing for Doke is huge. Having 4 guards that you have to respect from 3 creates that spacing.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
I’m not seeing the big improvement of Dave. You guys?
Oh I see it. Can’t teach his motor. He’s just a bit late on a lot of plays now where even thinking of making the pass wouldn’t cross his mind a year ago.
Love how he attacks the glass. - -A lot of times his motor goes faster then the rest of his body. - - he is going to be fine. - -by his JR & SR years we gonna have us a stud for sure - -the kid is just scratching his potential
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We don’t have 4 guards to make that happen unless the freshman grow up fast
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BeddieKU23 said:
We don’t have 4 guards to make that happen unless the freshman grow up fast
I don’t disagree we have at best 3/4 respectable shooting guards but, last night we didn’t get to see Garrett’s new form from 3. If there is such a thing that is.
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Belatedly chiming in - was at the Garden last night for the games. Great atmosphere. Strong KU contingent, but Duke crowd seemed a bit larger, or louder. I bought ticket late and was primarily in with MSU fans - who were all rooting for KU (or againt Duke). Was also next to Milwaukee Bucks scout who had some interesting observations. Assume it came through on TV, but what was so apparent in person is that Doke, Dave and Silvio were all, as HSBC likes to say, “sped up.” Bad footwork and poor (often slow) decision-making. And, because we had virtually no threat on the perimeter, it allowed Duke to throw multiple bodies at them. Really, no Jayhawk played well - Garrett was solid and Enaruna looked (surprisingly) comfortable, but that’s about it. Having said that, playing as badly as they did (at least on the offensive end) and still be in a position to win with half a minute to go is a positive. One troubling “trend” is that Self, as he usually does, really shortened the bench in the second half, while Duke was substituting fairly liberally (4 subs with 10+ minutes). Our 3 perimeter guys all played 36-38 minutes. That’s not sustainable over the course of the year. Maybe it was just that he really wanted to win this game…
