Kansas vs Duke Game Thread:
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@BShark he even stated that, not pissed but you know
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BShark said:
@FarmerJayhawk What do you make of the Silvio situation? Seems like Bill is pissed at him.
Honestly I think Silvio is playing like a true freshman. He made some super effort plays but wasn’t that sound. 4 boards in 7 minutes is awesome. Good FT shooter. But missed some bunnies (0-3 shooting) and just never got in rhythm. Needs reps between Friday and legit games in Maui.
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Silvio just doesn’t add anything that Doke and Dave don’t already do. Everyone kept talking about how he was developing this mid range jumper but we didn’t see it. He couldn’t finish around the rim and doesn’t hustle as much as Dave. Right now he is clearly #3 in that rotation if we go to 4 guards. I honestly wouldn’t be shocked if he only plays 10-15 MPG at this point.
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The last dook hero gets it https://twitter.com/iammaliknewman/status/1191907032594616320?s=21
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Bill, “I think we made easy plays difficult.” Exactly. Not like we played out of our skulls and lost. We threw our D game and lost by 2. Probably played a B+ game on defense and a F——- on offense. We raise the offense to a D and we win by 10.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
And we didn’t even have our best shooter.
Yeah where was Moss?
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@chriz hamstring pull. Self said he’s only practiced one day since he started here.
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I don’t think a 2-point loss to a good Duke team is going to ruin the season. We have a lot of things we can work on and a lot of things we can get better at. I believe we can get to April if we can avoid turning the ball over 28 times in a game.
On to the next game. Let’s learn from this and keep getting better.
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A lot of time over the next three games to get healthy, correct some stuff and try to figure out rotations.
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Lol Illinois most to Nicholls at home. CC: Adam Miller
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The bread and butter of 2 bigs and selfs high low was predicated in having a 4 that could at least shoot to 15 feet. None of the 3 bigs can do that. The reason doke didn’t get many shots is because there wasn’t room. Nobody respects our 4s range and if Garrett is in with them forget it. This team need to go 4 and 1 and rotate the 3 bigs. I guarantee we evolve that way.
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How I miss the clutch guys… Devonte Graham, Frank Mason III, Cole Aldrich, Jeff Withey and Thomas Robinson.
I don’t know whether to view tonight’s game as glass half full (27 turnovers and only lost by 2) or glass half empty (27 turnovers represents our skill level)
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@bskeet We turned it over 28 times and only lost by 2 to a pretty good team. I’m going with glass half full. Turnovers can be corrected.
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I feel like we had 6 or 7 turnovers in transition. A could of times Ochai had an easy layup or dunk that he passed away.
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kjayhawks said:
I feel like we had 6 or 7 turnovers in transition. A could of times Ochai had an easy layup or dunk that he passed away.
Ochai is a bad passer and Dotson low key isn’t too great at it.
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This team has to go with the 4 best shooters and Doke period. Aside from Dotson leading like Frank or Devonte, how fast Enaruna can gain Self’s trust may be the most important element to this team.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich “turnovers can be corrected”
I hope you’re right. The turnovers I saw last night were stupid and I’ve always heard you can’t fix stupid.
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@nuleafjhawk that’s the trouble with yes Dooks pressure was good but so many of them were grade school type of plays.
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We were out-coached in this one. We didn’t come prepared, and we have enough experienced players that we should have been better prepared.
We should have had more plays to work from so the game would have been better scripted to beat a defense that was allowed to completely overplay the passing lanes and double down on Doke.
For example, if we are going to count on some form of a hi-lo then we need to isolate Doke. Make it much harder for him to get doubled. Heck, Duke was doing that to us and they almost fouled out Doke.
We all know both David and Silvio are weak on perimeter defense. They can compensate by playing out tighter to use ball denial. And if they play out tight, if their man drives past them he will have to face Doke in the paint.
Funny that we played a game where our guys played tentative, trying not to make a mistake, and that style actually pushed them into more mistakes. The way to beat aggressive defense is to attack it. So we would drive the ball and blow by defenders then immediately stop and pick up the ball and then get pinched. That made no sense at all. Our guards need to finish at the rim after they blow by. Marcus was the only one that understood that.
Except for a few minutes in the second half, Duke controlled this game and deserved to win.
This isn’t a team that will do well playing free style. This team will need to run more off a script. The good news is that we have the personnel to be very effective off a script.
The loss may help us more than if we scored 4 more points and won a nail-biter. Keep building chip!
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@drgnslayr I’m not a basketball guru - just a fan, but I’ve always felt like we’re a better team without Doke in the lineup. His turnovers and lack of FT shooting ability really hamstring us. I have nothing against him, he seems like a super nice kid, I just think he’s a terrible basketball player. Every time he matches up against another 7 footer (or close) he gets embarrassed.
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A few very negative things that I saw last night.
Dotson was timid being defended against Jones. Jones really seemed to rattle his ability to run the offense the way we know Dotson can. If I was a scout seeing that game I would be deeply concerned about Devon leaving after the year. Of course there will be 30+ more games for him to prove otherwise but the man that’s supposed to lead the troops was taken out of his comfort. He may not be 100% as well but he’s going to have to do a better job leading this group against the better teams. This was more or less the opposite of how he played last year in the Champions Classic.
The turnovers were atrocious. To even lose in single digits after an almost school record amount is quite remarkable. I think that shows how average Duke is right now more then anything that they couldn’t pull away after getting 28 empty possessions from KU. I get the stage was bright but we saw a lot of careless mistakes. Up 9 in the early to middle stages of the 2nd half with all the momentum and Duke gets a pair of 3 pointers and then 3 consecutive inexplicable turnovers ruin it all. That was the turning point of the game momentum wise. KU could have blown it open. It was game 1 but to me this was biggest negative we could see all season long. The lack of chemistry and value of the ball was on full display.
What to do with Doke? He had no clue what to do with double teams or the awareness on how to make the defense pay. As much value as he’s provided at times in his career and the numbers clearly back that up, last night was a major step back for him. Rusty? I don’t know he definitely wasn’t aggressive fighting the double teams and at his size he gave all the advantage to Duke.
Moss’s absence. According to Synergy Moss was in the 99th percentile for spot up shooting. He has to get healthy and give this team a deep threat. Ochai cannot do it alone. Might be the entire key to opening up what was one of the worst offensive performances I’ve ever seen. Just having a shooter on the floor would limit how many double teams Doke sees and the way defenses can stop this offense from punishing them.
One major positive, the defense was solid last night. We can put out big lineups that force easy shots to become difficult. I thought KU had a good defensive gameplan besides some lapses on Carey and Hurt from the perimeter. This years defense looks promising.
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Duke defended a Doke high pick and roll perfectly. They doubled the ball handler and left Doke alone. They knew they he couldn’t take advantage of the space that far away and that their defense could meet him far enough from the basket so he couldn’t just dunk it. When this happened with Dotson it was a real effort to pass around/over the two defenders which always gave duke enough time to recover.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
And we didn’t even have our best shooter.
yet another way to look at it - - Moss which from everything I’ve heard probably going to be our best 3 pt shooter - - no Moss - - 28 turnovers - - our main Big only 4 shot attempts – and LOSE by only 2 - -not THAT concerned. - -for sure need work to do taking a lot beter control of ball - -but I mean 1st game of the year.
look at it this way - -they talking about how deep we are and all that jibber jabber & it’s true BUT -no matter how you want to twist - - turn & kick it - - Bottom line is were still a pretty young team ourself.
Dotson - -Soph - - McCormack - - Soph - - -Abaji - -Soph - - Desousa - - been inactive for year - - rusty as hell. - -Ya , Ya, I know Dotson been starting - and all that garbage - -at times not going to mean squat - -this was one of those times. - - As lousy as we played it was TWO points - -1st game.
It just stuns me how all the Coach cushion Beer drinking Pretzel eating arm chair Coach’s pop up - - talking smack - -all what the F- - - is Self doing? - - Time for Coaching Change - -Self should of done this – Self should of done that – Self - - Self - - Self. - -I know we got a 1001 Arm Chair Coachs that are un-defeated and always have that PERFECT play call - -bout makes me sick.
I’ve always said to these people , but don’t think any have ever taken me up on it YET. - -if your that great of Coach - - you got the answers - - plays situtions - -for every circumstance - - every game ? - -The solution is quite simple - -how bout you just trot your your happy little fat as right on down to the athletic dept Beer in one hand - - hoagie in the other , and a bag of pretzels stripped to your belt and put in your resume - tell them your ready to take over help out - - HELL we won’t ever have anything to worry about - - just have them Fed-E us the NCAA trophy for the res of our lives - -we got THE COACH.
it’s stone funny really- -I mean holy fricken crap -some people think things are the end of KU basketball because we lost a game. - -let’s see- -how did that Kentucky/Michigan State game turn out? - -wonder what those fans are thinking? - -Wonder where the arm chair Coach’s hide when we rip off 10-11-12 wins in a row - -where they are at when we won 14 straight conference championships? - - wonder if these Coach’s do realize that Calipari hasn’t won any more titles then KU has in the same length of time? - thingsthat make a guy go hmmmmm. - -Ok I’m done – have a great day lmao. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Hey doke was 2 for 3 from the line. Spacing for Doke is huge. Having 4 guards that you have to respect from 3 creates that spacing.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
I’m not seeing the big improvement of Dave. You guys?
Oh I see it. Can’t teach his motor. He’s just a bit late on a lot of plays now where even thinking of making the pass wouldn’t cross his mind a year ago.
Love how he attacks the glass. - -A lot of times his motor goes faster then the rest of his body. - - he is going to be fine. - -by his JR & SR years we gonna have us a stud for sure - -the kid is just scratching his potential
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We don’t have 4 guards to make that happen unless the freshman grow up fast
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BeddieKU23 said:
We don’t have 4 guards to make that happen unless the freshman grow up fast
I don’t disagree we have at best 3/4 respectable shooting guards but, last night we didn’t get to see Garrett’s new form from 3. If there is such a thing that is.
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Belatedly chiming in - was at the Garden last night for the games. Great atmosphere. Strong KU contingent, but Duke crowd seemed a bit larger, or louder. I bought ticket late and was primarily in with MSU fans - who were all rooting for KU (or againt Duke). Was also next to Milwaukee Bucks scout who had some interesting observations. Assume it came through on TV, but what was so apparent in person is that Doke, Dave and Silvio were all, as HSBC likes to say, “sped up.” Bad footwork and poor (often slow) decision-making. And, because we had virtually no threat on the perimeter, it allowed Duke to throw multiple bodies at them. Really, no Jayhawk played well - Garrett was solid and Enaruna looked (surprisingly) comfortable, but that’s about it. Having said that, playing as badly as they did (at least on the offensive end) and still be in a position to win with half a minute to go is a positive. One troubling “trend” is that Self, as he usually does, really shortened the bench in the second half, while Duke was substituting fairly liberally (4 subs with 10+ minutes). Our 3 perimeter guys all played 36-38 minutes. That’s not sustainable over the course of the year. Maybe it was just that he really wanted to win this game…
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Most people are a lot more optimistic after last night than I am. That is not a good Duke team. I do not care what their ranking is they have no depth, and not a ton of high end talent. Jones is a fine PG who can not shoot, Hurt is going to be a great college BB player, and Stanley showed some flashes. Carey was a huge disappointment and looks very unathletic and not very skilled. ( a lot like Doke)
Seems like everyone thinks Moss is magically going to come in and be a dead eye shooter and solve a lot of problems. I am going to have to see that before I believe it. He is our best outside shooter but that isn’t really saying much.
Dotson and Ochai still can not shoot from the outside. Ochai missed two wide open looks from the corner. He sure as hell does not know how to run a fast break as he turned it over twice and another time slowed down to toss it to Dotson for a 3 when he had a wide open guy for a dunk. Of course Dotson missed the open 3.
Then there is the problem with the bigs. None of the three can make anything outside of 5 feet. So when Self plays them together the floor shrinks so much that it takes away the advantage that Doke has. Self is stubborn so there is no reason to think he is going to go away from playing big. I am actually very surprised the RD Mitch, because he at least is a threat to hit some outside shots and is a poor man stretch 4.
Tristan was great in the first half but awful in the second and had some awful turnovers. Wilson and Braun were just bad in the limited minutes they saw.
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@Woodrow I think there are many people very down on the team. I would agree Duke isn’t very good. There are problems sure but but it’s still just one game. I want to see how Self and the team respond. They need time playing together and Self could change things up. If this team still looks like this in February then we have a problem.
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@Woodrow said: “Carey was a huge disappointment and looks very unathletic and not very skilled. ( a lot like Doke)”
I personally felt like Carey looked like Wilt compared to Doke. Of course, most games I would look like Wilt compared to Doke.
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I agree with a lot of this post.
Moss by all means graded out last year as an elite spot up shooter. Think Svi his senior year. I think that if he can get healthy and get on the court that will make a difference. How much of a difference we have no clue yet. Self thinks it will be impactful.
A lot of mistakes last night. The bigs were sped up. Dotson didn’t look 100% or was rattled by the stage and the pressure Jones was giving all night. So many careless turnovers. It’s either just a blip or part of the identity of this team. Time will tell
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Scouts seemed to be impressed with Agbaji last night. He’s definitely not flying under the radar…
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BeddieKU23 said:
Scouts seemed to be impressed with Agbaji last night. He’s definitely not flying under the radar…
He was really hot and cold.
I think this team can still be very good but it’s not going to necessarily be fun to watch. Many wins can be had off of defense and rebounding. Cutting the turnovers down is massive. At least bricking a bunch gives a chance for rebounds.
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Yeah he flashed and disappeared at times. If he makes those corner 3’s or makes the right decisions in transition a few times I wonder how different the narrative would be today. I thought he defended well, had some good rebounds and flashed his athletic ability. I think he’s capable of more and hopefully he’ll get there
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This post is deleted!
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nuleafjhawk said:
@KirkIsMyHinrich “turnovers can be corrected”
I hope you’re right. The turnovers I saw last night were stupid and I’ve always heard you can’t fix stupid.
You can, though. You can decrease your stupid by reading books and stuff. At least that’s what I heard; I don’t read.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich You know, we all are not enthused about their play last night. You don’t have to be so hateful.
Lighten up, Francis
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I agree with @drgnslayr that this team had no script or couldn’t follow the script for dealing with pressure last night. They had one back door cut play they used 2 times to punish Duke for the overplays. Hard to say with so many turnovers if players didn’t know where to be, made bad decisions, or didn’t even have a plan. I do think this reinforces a lot of what Self likes to say about “cutting of the head” and why good defense on a point guard can be so important. Tre Jones cut of the head last night. His pressure up top set the tone for KU’s offense. The only release valve for that pressure were the two back door cuts and then letting Garrett run the point. If Garrett is going to be the second ball handler on this team he has to drive to distribute better. He’s improved with the ability to go left a little more this year, but once he starts driving there’s no doubt he’s going to try to take it all the way himself.
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I’ve been trying to figure this out in my head all day - given the fact that we had 28 turnovers and we can’t change that - would we be happier if we had, say 8 turnovers and lost by two points?
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@nuleafjhawk I don’t think so. We played like crap and barely lost to a pretty good team. We can see the potential. The outcome of the first game of the season really doesn’t mean much.
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Just think last year at this time we thought Grimes was a stud.
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@benshawks08 Good insight. HCBS basically went with his starting 5 last night. Those 5 can be very strong defensively - control the boards and apply pressure - albeit with one glaring vulnerability - to a stretch 4 - as was demonstrated. It’s on the offensive end that those 5 will likely struggle to score, at least against other athletic and disciplined teams. The box score shows that we were 4-9 from behind the arc, although the shot chart shows 11 shots taken. Put aside Dotson’s meaningless end of game banked 3, and we hit just 3 shots from behind the arc. Not sure but I believe they were all in the first half (was 1 of Ochai’s in the second stanza?). But more remarkably, we did not make a single shot beyond those outside the paint all game. We had virtually no outside presence. And, as you note, none of our perimeter guys are particularly good dishing the ball. While they drove the ball to the rim reasonably effectively (although not always finishing strongly), I don’t recall a single instance of driving and dishing for an easy bucket. Our PG had 1 assist for the game! Basically, it’s go downhill and hope for a put back if the shot is missed on the drive. That’s not an offense.
None of Doke, Dave or Silvio are skilled enough or have good enough footwork to deal with quick double teams. But the only way to avoid that happening is to make teams pay by making outside shots - which isn’t going to happen that often if Dotson, Garrett and Ochai are all getting 36-40 minutes a game. The sky isn’t falling - despite 28 turnovers and generally poor decision-making, we had a chance to win an ugly game, which is what HCBS likes to do. But, if we continue to go with 2 bigs and those 3 on the perimeter a substantial majority of the time, there are likely to be a lot of ugly games ahead…
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Why do people think it’s impossible for us to clean up the turnovers? Isn’t that the natural progression of a team as they get more experience playing in a system together with their teammates? I think so.
I’d say all turnovers have some degree of carelessness, which is in part caused by an uncertainty of what to do in a particular situation or what a teammate will do in a particular situation. That uncertainty decreases as players get more comfortable in their roles and with their teammates. They understand their teammates’ behavior and body language, and are better able to predict what they are going to do.
They also can learn how to do things better (like feed and pass out of the post) and things that they shouldn’t do (leave your feet to throw a pass), and that helps too.
So, ya, I think we can clean it up a little.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich we looked pretty good getting that 9 pt lead! Then they hit 2 3’s, and we had several to’s on fast break. To many unselfish passes. Och and DDot. Missing Doke when he’s wide open. Tristan needs to go on in, and he’ll get better. But D Dot has me scratching my head, he’s had great defenders on him before. Changing his mind after he goes in w/no options. Those fast break passes will get better. Marcus did a good job on hurt. Their big was 2-2 on 3’s.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I agree with Enaruna getting time. He has so much upside and just needs experience.
With Dotson, I don’t think it was just Tre Jones or Duke’s defense that gave him problems. Our offense wasn’t great. Our post-passing sucked, our big-men can’t shoot, and probably the biggest thing was that we started three guys last night who didn’t attempt a 3-pointer. The lack of perimeter options and lack of spacing forced Dotson into some tough plays. He could have played better but I don’t think it was entirely Dotson’s fault.
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I aint blaming the refs but just doing a little what if.
What if the end of the first half was reviewable? ESPN sure didn’t want to give us the replay and damage Dukes sterling reputation, but I sure wish we’d have had at least a chance to score 2 at the end of the half.
I mentioned this on the game thread. I confirmed this sequence with my DVR. KU FT good. Duke guy grabs the ball out of bounds and throws it in bounds to a guy who does their inbounds passes. The guy who got the pass goes out of bounds to then complete a 2nd inbounds play. Total violation. Total botched call by an official who is supposed to be watching for such things. KU had no back court pressure might be the stripes reason for not watching it. A little while earlier something similar may have happened, I do remember thinking, wait, what was that? It may have even been us doing it? But it sure as heck went uncalled. Just for the record, Duke went down the floor and turned it over to us, so this is somewhat of a moot point, but it might have been a big missed call.
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Garrett got called for a phantom trip where O’Connell fell over his leg. @wissox
How many travels did KU have in the first half that weren’t called the same way on Duke. Jones walked a few times to long island
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Neither team looked very good last night. I will say that KU would’ve won fairly easily without that level of turnovers. Offensively, KU looked pretty much like I thought they would with two bigs out there. Defensively, I thought KU looked good. If you tell me before the game, KU would hold Duke under 70, I’ll take that every time.
None of the teams last night looked very good so I wish ESPN would go back to having this event the second week of the season so everyone could get a game or two in to improve the quality of the games. Last night was two ugly games that definitely looked like the first game of the season for all 4 teams.
