Trouble?
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I’m so through with all this political crap - I don’t even watch the news because I can’t stand politics (all bad), news (all bad), weather - 90% bad with a 50% chance of intermittent good (i know the math doesn’t work out - that’s true weather math) and now sports. Used to be you could watch sports and be entertained. See some great games, watch some incredible highlights - now it’s just all CRAP.
My boat and fishing poles will be getting a much greater workout in the years to come.
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mayjay said:
Just popping in to say, yes, college bb players ARE interchangeable over a period of years. But they are individuals well recognized by their fan bases in the one to four years they attend their schools. Those are the years available.
Whether another athlete comes along to replace or even exceed them after they leave, is irrelevant to the years in which they could earn a little money.
Right- I go with this definition of interchangeable… You captured my thinking better than I did…
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By that definition we are all special and unique like a snowflake. It also makes us all the same and completely interchangeable.
If none of the former KU players came to Kansas, I’d remember those who did in their place. The coaches make the programs not the players.
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I’m no expert on the pros and cons of allowing students to profit from their image and likeness, but one of the more compelling arguments I’ve heard is that every citizen has this right, and that the NCAA’s rule is stripping a group of people from this basic right.
I’ve heard two very impassioned arguments about how this will 1) transform women athletes and bring much greater notoriety to them, and 2) destroy women’s athletics and undo title IX… Essentially completely opposite projections on the impact. My conclusion: No one can predict what the benefits and consequences of this will really be.
My other conclusion as to why the NCAA is really fighting this: Status quo and the ability to better control what is known.
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Players are not interchangeable.
They do add value.
What they should be compensated is a scholarship that offers them the tools and platform to succeed. That is payment enough from the schools. I can agree to that.
I also believe they should have the ability to go profit off of their likeness.
Yes, the schools brand means a ton. But the brand is also effected by the players playing for that school. It is silly to think otherwise. How much goodwill did the VCU brand gain from going to the Final Four? How about George Mason? Wichita State? Wichita State is now in a new conference making significantly more money because of Baker, VanVleet and Early. Those guys were freaking rockstars in Wichita, KS. They would have made a pretty penny, and it would have only been a fraction of what they gifted to the university.
The 2007 Orange Bowl team, how much extra value did they create over a what used to be a somewhat typical 5-7 KU team? Millions I’d guess.
What happens to the endowment after KU makes a FF? What happens to the attendance? They increase. Which is adding value to the university.
The flip side of that is the cost of having a crappy team. Look how hard it was for KU to raise money for the football program. Look at Arkansas University attendance numbers now that they’ve sucked for so many years at football. What is the brand damage to Arkansas right now? KU Football’s brand has been demolished. Making it harder to get good players, players who would add value. How you can say players are interchangeable knowing the cost vs the gain of a good team?
Of course the players would not be marketable without the school’s brand giving them the platform to become marketable. I do understand this. But the school’s brand suffers as well without having quality players. It does work both ways. This is very, very evident.
This is why I believe that players should be allowed to profit off of their likeness. Those who would make money are the ones who add value over those who truly are “interchangeable.” Would you want their autograph if they played for the Kansas City Jay Birds? No. But you also wouldn’t be wasting your time watching if KU was consistently terrible. You wouldn’t be paying for Matt Kleinman’s autograph, but I literally have paid for a signed Brandon Rush basketball that is sitting right next to me as I type this.
Players simply are not interchangeable. I do agree that Coaches are very important. But Nick Saban is not going to a National Championship with KU’s roster. And Les Miles could probably get to the playoffs with a roster like Alabama’s. That gap in talent is player added value. That gap is worth tens of millions of dollars a season. That gap is what helps to create or destroy brand value.
Realizing this, I find it to be very, very clear that players are worth far more than just what their current “earnings” are. Allowing them to go cash in on some of that value, while they have it (and yes that is partially due to using the school’s brand), seems like the right thing to do in my eyes. Limiting their income in the name of “fairness” does not appear to be working, considering the results of Basketball, Baseball, Football, Soccer, Volleyball, Hockey, Track, Wrestling and basically all NCAA sports. There just simply are schools that have advantages already. Period. Whether it be geography, amenities, population, donors wealth etc.I look at how in almost every sport, 5-10 programs essentially dominate, and I just think that there is no way it can get any worse than it is now. We will see Bama and Clemson in the playoffs again against either OU, OSU, Notre Dame, Georgia, or Texas. Just like we basically have the past 20 years. The favorites to win the NCAA basketball Championship are KU, MSU, UK and Duke. Just like every other season.
If there was tangible proof that limiting players to just their scholarship created a level playing field, you could convince me. But there is absolutely no evidence of that being the case. Bigger or more prestigious schools just simply are more attractive than smaller ones. It has always been the case and it will continue to be the case. Even if you limited athletic department budgets and coach salaries, you’d still have schools that have an advantage.
Players add value, and I cannot find one major reason why we should keep them from capturing it.
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@Kcmatt7 “…5-7 KU team…”
Ah, I feel misty-eyed when anyone brings up those good old days…
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@Kcmatt7 You said, “Players add value, and I cannot find one major reason why we should keep them from capturing it.”
One MAJOR reason - The players don’t own the NCAA or the colleges. That’s about as major as it gets. The same reason I can’t come and sleep in your house – you OWN it. But that doesn’t matter to you or others. You ignore the obvious, most important consideration in our economy. OWNERS MAKE RULES ON PRODUCTS THEY OWN. It doesn’t matter that the players don’t OWN the product to you. Your mindset continues to be, take what others have created. It’s the same mindset of those wanting to pay McDonald’s employees $15 an hour when anyone can do the job (ignoring the market value of the services). But more importantly, you and others (on a certain side of the political isle) devalue ownership of business, risk, investment, creation of product, etc. It’s as if because it has been created, it should be shared. Why is this continually ignored by posters? Because it is an undeniable yet inconvenient truth. Or, more easy, because life is unfair.
The market value of the players’ services is evidenced by no market for the players’ services that is better than what the NCAA/Colleges own (other than what we see – overseas, sub-leagues, etc.).
Folks won’t pay for inferior products that EXCEPT because of the ties to the schools I’ve mentioned.
It’s pretty obvious. You use the Kleinmann example. Right. If I were an autograph seeker, and I’m not, but I’d rather have Sherron Collins than Klienmann. This position of yours and others is related to making a major shift in rules nearly exclusively for those top tier guys. And, further, ignoring all the other sports – golf, tennis, rowing, etc. No one wants anything from them. So it’s the top tier.
You point to Alabama vs. KU. Ok, great. You take the top Power 5 program vs. perhaps a bottom 5 program. But how many other schools pack their stadiums regardless of product? But the macro product is not what I’m focused on.
The interchangeability is related to that particular school. Sure, I agree. Bama’s overall group of players are better than KU’s. And they add value to Bama vs. KU. Conceded.
But my point is that regardless of the individual identity of the player in the helmet, folks support the team. Now, that player has to be good or comparable, but assuming that fact, as we’ve seen at KU, we support them regardless of their identity BECAUSE they are a Jayhawk. This is really undeniable. As mentioned, Collins, TT, Tharpe, EJ, etc. Didn’t matter. (Yes, even Tharpe). That’s different than the overall product you cite. I’m focusing on this individual value, individual likeness stuff.
Another irrefutable point – the players’ individual likeness has little value without the benefit of that university connection. This is in direct contrast to other minor leagues. Those teams don’t create marketing value for the player to any real extent.
*Of course, the free market argument can be used to claim that schools should just bid on players, that such an arrangement is truly “free market.” That’s an entirely different animal and different debate. That’s professional sports to a certain degree (though even leagues like MLB where it’s free bidding, no cap, there are major rules as to when a team’s control of a player would end). There are legal arguments that could be made (they have been tried). But the NCAA model stands. It is an entity that can make its own rules for participation – much like McDonalds. Professional sports (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL) owners, as a group, can make their own rules. The NCAA, though slightly different, is in the same boat. The NCAA can make their own rules for participation.
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HighEliteMajor said:
Folks won’t pay for inferior products that EXCEPT because of the ties to the schools I’ve mentioned.
Exactly why minor league sports don’t make any money and why the WNBA depends on the NBA subsidies for survival.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I worked as a college intern on a project that made a company billions I’d still be paid under our internship arrangement even if I made the key breakthrough. I’d just be compensated down the road with sweet job offers!
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@BigBad Dead-on correct. Women are clamoring in sports for equal pay without regard to the fact that in most every instance, their product does not generate the same revenue as men. But it is so unfair …
@Dylans Inescapable logic you offer there. I will certainly plagiarize in later discussions without any credit to my source. I was an unpaid intern, hated the idea of being unpaid (not looking big picture), but stuck with it based on some good advice, worked three part time jobs (like many others, and the internship paid off greatly in creating my career opportunity. But it was so unfair …
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dylans said:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I worked as a college intern on a project that made a company billions I’d still be paid under our internship arrangement even if I made the key breakthrough. I’d just be compensated down the road with sweet job offers!
Say you were an intern for NASA and got them to the moon. Say that information was leaked publicly, and you became famous in your hometown. Just a Kansas boy that got us to the moon. The local diner offers you $1,000 to come shake hands and launch the new “Dylans Moon Pie” recently added to the menu.
NASA wouldn’t be preventing you from doing this.
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@HighEliteMajor I’ve been of the opinion the NCAA has needed to overhaul their system since long before KU was ever under investigation. I shifted my discussion from the suggestions to tweaking the system to the system itself because of your response to my first post.
The NCAA created this mess long ago when they chose to turn a blind eye to rumors of players getting paid in both football and basketball instead of investigating and shutting down anything they found. They hammer a program about once a decade to keep up appearances of being in control when the reality is the NCAA lost control of amateurism long ago in college athletics. What the NCAA did isn’t much different than MLB turning a blind eye to steroid abuse in the 80’s and 90’s and then essentially black listing players who took advantage of the system in place. The biggest difference between MLB and the NCAA in this case though is that MLB had the ability to enforce their own rules and began testing for steroids and punishing those found guilty of taking steroids. The NCAA doesn’t have the resources to enforce their own rules evenly so they still turn a blind eye to a lot of stuff worthy of investigating.
This is why I’m an advocate for the NCAA to get together with schools from different levels of competition from the P5 schools all the way down to D3 programs and work with those schools to create a set of rules the NCAA can enforce at all levels. That also likely means the NCAA is going to give ground on players profiting from their likeness in some ways.
I’m not in the camp of saying someone like Zion should be able to sign a multi-million dollar shoe contract in college. Letting him auction off the shoe he blew out against UNC would get decent money. Someone like Zion would be in minority of actually being able to make life changing money as a college athlete. Most players would make a few hundred or so a year because of their relative obscurity to most fans.
I don’t think a player should be able to sign endorsement deals and make money that way, but if someone is a budding music artist, let them make money off their music like any other student could do. The NCAA needs to be willing to work with their member schools to create a system that is agreed upon and enforceable. That means both sides would have to compromise on issues in order to reach that agreement. What would make the most impact at that point and determine if the new system would be effective is that NCAA would have to enforce those new rules fairly across the board from powerhouse programs all the way to the worst D3 programs.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 You said, “Players add value, and I cannot find one major reason why we should keep them from capturing it.”
One MAJOR reason - The players don’t own the NCAA or the colleges. That’s about as major as it gets. The same reason I can’t come and sleep in your house – you OWN it. But that doesn’t matter to you or others. You ignore the obvious, most important consideration in our economy. OWNERS MAKE RULES ON PRODUCTS THEY OWN. It doesn’t matter that the players don’t OWN the product to you. Your mindset continues to be, take what others have created. It’s the same mindset of those wanting to pay McDonald’s employees $15 an hour when anyone can do the job (ignoring the market value of the services). But more importantly, you and others (on a certain side of the political isle) devalue ownership of business, risk, investment, creation of product, etc. It’s as if because it has been created, it should be shared. Why is this continually ignored by posters? Because it is an undeniable yet inconvenient truth. Or, more easy, because life is unfair.
The school owns the brand and infrastructure and provide an amazing platform. Conceded.
They do not own the player.
I have NEVER argued that the school should share their profit. Ever. Not once. The schools own their brands and their infrastructure.
But the players are not products. They are participants just like anyone else who goes to work. Once you do your job, your time is then yours.
So, in their own free time, they should not be prevented from earning other income providing it is legal (not throwing games, or that sort of criminal behavior). Any other job on the planet would allow you to do this so long as you are performing your duties, there is no clear conflict of interest, and you don’t negatively effect the company’s image (Doing an advertisement for a Porn Company. Illicit Tweets. Etc).
There is very little risk here for the brands. If anything, it increases their exposure. It helps them grow the brand. It’s the same reason that Pro contracts have forced Media Time in all of them. The more access available the more it helps the brand. Do you think the Chiefs are worried about what commercial Pat Mahomes is going to do? No. they’re pumped he’s on TV in a Chiefs uniform 5 commercials in a row.
If the NCAA wasn’t against this, the schools would not care. I guarantee it. You know how I know? Because the other 30,000 kids that go to school there are free to do what they want. Because they don’t have academic scholarship winners sign anything that says they can’t make any money on the side without the school’s consent.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 You said, “Players add value, and I cannot find one major reason why we should keep them from capturing it.”
One MAJOR reason - The players don’t own the NCAA or the colleges. That’s about as major as it gets. The same reason I can’t come and sleep in your house – you OWN it. But that doesn’t matter to you or others. You ignore the obvious, most important consideration in our economy. OWNERS MAKE RULES ON PRODUCTS THEY OWN. It doesn’t matter that the players don’t OWN the product to you. Your mindset continues to be, take what others have created. It’s the same mindset of those wanting to pay McDonald’s employees $15 an hour when anyone can do the job (ignoring the market value of the services). But more importantly, you and others (on a certain side of the political isle) devalue ownership of business, risk, investment, creation of product, etc. It’s as if because it has been created, it should be shared. Why is this continually ignored by posters? Because it is an undeniable yet inconvenient truth. Or, more easy, because life is unfair.
The market value of the players’ services is evidenced by no market for the players’ services that is better than what the NCAA/Colleges own (other than what we see – overseas, sub-leagues, etc.).
Folks won’t pay for inferior products that EXCEPT because of the ties to the schools I’ve mentioned.
It’s pretty obvious. You use the Kleinmann example. Right. If I were an autograph seeker, and I’m not, but I’d rather have Sherron Collins than Klienmann. This position of yours and others is related to making a major shift in rules nearly exclusively for those top tier guys. And, further, ignoring all the other sports – golf, tennis, rowing, etc. No one wants anything from them. So it’s the top tier.
You point to Alabama vs. KU. Ok, great. You take the top Power 5 program vs. perhaps a bottom 5 program. But how many other schools pack their stadiums regardless of product? But the macro product is not what I’m focused on.
The interchangeability is related to that particular school. Sure, I agree. Bama’s overall group of players are better than KU’s. And they add value to Bama vs. KU. Conceded.
But my point is that regardless of the individual identity of the player in the helmet, folks support the team. Now, that player has to be good or comparable, but assuming that fact, as we’ve seen at KU, we support them regardless of their identity BECAUSE they are a Jayhawk. This is really undeniable. As mentioned, Collins, TT, Tharpe, EJ, etc. Didn’t matter. (Yes, even Tharpe). That’s different than the overall product you cite. I’m focusing on this individual value, individual likeness stuff.
Another irrefutable point – the players’ individual likeness has little value without the benefit of that university connection. This is in direct contrast to other minor leagues. Those teams don’t create marketing value for the player to any real extent.
*Of course, the free market argument can be used to claim that schools should just bid on players, that such an arrangement is truly “free market.” That’s an entirely different animal and different debate. That’s professional sports to a certain degree (though even leagues like MLB where it’s free bidding, no cap, there are major rules as to when a team’s control of a player would end). There are legal arguments that could be made (they have been tried). But the NCAA model stands. It is an entity that can make its own rules for participation – much like McDonalds. Professional sports (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL) owners, as a group, can make their own rules. The NCAA, though slightly different, is in the same boat. The NCAA can make their own rules for participation.
And the NCAA doesn’t own the players - - that would be called slavery. - -if you think the NCAA OWNS these kids - - I feel sorry for you - -people owning people? - - those days are long gone - - Thank GOD. - Again why should it be the privlege of the NCAA to make money off these kids and not Kids be able to make money to live? -Again just like anyone else this is a job to these kids - - or a future job - -last time I checked people get paid to work/jobs - these kids should be no different.
every time they step on the court they are interviewing for their upcoming life/job - -they don’t produce/ they don’t make the big stage - - - more on the line then just a game for them. - -
These kids entertain us when they play , you tell me where else can you go watch a event and not have to pay to watch entertainment? - - Movies?/NOPE - - Play Golf/Nope Racing Event/ NOPE ? Baseball ?/NOPE - - Football? ? NOPE - -there is not any place you can go to watch entertainment - -that’s exactly what these kids are doing for us - - entertaining - so dam straight they should be paid - - You would have to pay to watch those same kids later if/when they make the NBA – this to them is a job just like any other Red Blooded American - whether you want to believe that or not - -you don’t want to then - -Not my Rodeo – Not my cowboy -just takes longer for some to grasp it that’s all pretty simple.
You bring up people and mind sets of like wanting to pay McDonalds employees 15 dollars an hour when anyone can do that ignoring market value - -well I can’t specifically speak for McDonald employees BUT I can speak for where I DID WORK same situation there.
I work in a huge food production plant - - - worked there for 10 yrs and then fell to disability because of my back - - this job had lot to do with my disability - -real shit job, but with my situation at the time took what I could get. - -started out there at 8.00 per hour - -and just like the other employees didn’t get squat - -lots of time through out the year had to work loads of overtime worked 24/7 shifts a lot- -finally right about the or my end worked as a MACHINE OPERATOR and still finally hit 10.00 per hour after 10 fricken years - -Now since I’ve been gone after years and years of employee complaints this factory raised their wages more standard up to date - - ya anyone pretty much could do our job too - but they wouldn’t because of wage. Are you saying that market value of jobs like I know dam well even though as you say ANYONE could do the work - -umm my market value was a lot more then the pay.
Now can you tell me - -can ANYONE do what these kids do? - - Not hardly sure you can dribble a ball maybe make a basket - but dam well know your skills is no where close to these guys - that’s why they are working towards their future as a NBA player entertain - -again IT’S A JOB - just also happens to be something they like to do - -AND ? - -there is no way the NCAA should be profiting of these kids entertainment - -just like anyone else that preforms for people - -they should be getting SOME KIND of money PERIOD
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Kcmatt7 said:
dylans said:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I worked as a college intern on a project that made a company billions I’d still be paid under our internship arrangement even if I made the key breakthrough. I’d just be compensated down the road with sweet job offers!
Say you were an intern for NASA and got them to the moon. Say that information was leaked publicly, and you became famous in your hometown. Just a Kansas boy that got us to the moon. The local diner offers you $1,000 to come shake hands and launch the new “Dylans Moon Pie” recently added to the menu.
NASA wouldn’t be preventing you from doing this.
They could depending upon the deal you agreed too. And I would be more scared of NASA (likely a defense contract somewhere along the line) than the NCAA.
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HEM is right. The schools own the NCAA and the NCAA, by virtue of the powers conferred upon it by its members, gets to make the rules. You want to be a member, you are subject to their rules. If you want to play for a member, you do so within the structure established under the rules.
But, HEM is also wrong. Rules can be changed. And many organizations have changed lots of their rules both by internal choice and in response to external pressure.
People and other institutions affected by the rules are pressuring the NCAA to change its rules. So far as I know, the NCAA has the right to consider the ideas being presented, and the right to change to meet the broader circumstances at play.
There is literally nothing written on a couple of stone tablets handed down as holy writ requiring the current system. The revered Rules of our favorite sport were handed down by Dr. Naismith. But good lord, if those rules hadn’t changed and adapted to new ideas, not one person in the country would ever watch or care about basketball.
All organizations change, adapt, and evolve, or they fail. Some die out anyway. That happens in business and in life.
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mayjay said:
HEM is right. The schools own the NCAA and the NCAA, by virtue of the powers conferred upon it by its members, gets to make the rules. You want to be a member, you are subject to their rules. If you want to play for a member, you do so within the structure established under the rules.
But, HEM is also wrong. Rules can be changed. And many organizations have changed lots of their rules both by internal choice and in response to external pressure.
People and other institutions affected by the rules are pressuring the NCAA to change its rules. So far as I know, the NCAA has the right to consider the ideas being presented, and the right to change to meet the broader circumstances at play.
There is literally nothing written on a couple of stone tablets handed down as holy writ requiring the current system. The revered Rules of our favorite sport were handed down by Dr. Naismith. But good lord, if those rules hadn’t changed and adapted to new ideas, not one person in the country would ever watch or care about basketball.
All organizations change, adapt, and evolve, or they fail. Some die out anyway. That happens in business and in life.
@mayjay Regarding the “wrong” reference, I think you’ve use a red herring to simply make your point. I, of course, have never said that an organization’s rules couldn’t be changed. I’ve said they shouldn’t be changed.
We all agree that the NCAA can change its rules and there is nothing in stone.
The most important reason not to change – the why not – is because the schools, the owners, do not want to change. But an equally important reason “why not” to change is because it makes no sense, business-wise, to change.
The business model works. Athletes to fill the spots are plentiful, if certain athletes don’t want to participate other fill their spots (the irrefutable “interchangeable” argument), there is no mass walkout by the athletes, athletes (all scholarship athletes) by a large, large majority (say, 95% as a guess) are happy with their arrangement, those athletes are getting a free education which lasts a lifetime, the high level athletes have a massive stage to increase their marketability and draft status, and the business makes millions of dollars.
That’s the truth of the business end. And it is undeniable. But that doesn’t matter. It’s just ignored. Or lied about.
The sole reason that change might occur is because of political pressure based on the social justice garbage. Garbage that creates false narratives, focuses on a select few athletes, and ignores why the NCAA even exists. Quite simply, it’s a political perspective that hates business, hates owners, and hates the idea that a business can control it’s own rules (i.e., tell a worker what the worker can and can’t do). That is what is driving this.
Part of what drives that is constant reaction to the alleged plight of the inner city black athlete who doesn’t have pizza money. And, of course, we should all change everything so that athlete can make $2,000 in a local car commercial? I say “black” athlete because – the real truth – that’s all this is. This entire cause celeb is because of the perception and false narrative that the inner city black athlete is somehow being taken advantage of.
When the truth is, the athletic scholarship, by itself, may be the single greatest benefit that athlete has ever received – one that will change his/her life forever (white, black, or anywhere in between). The individual, the athlete, gets much more individually than the school gains from that individual (because that individual can be replaced by another). But to the individual that fills the spot, the scholarship is of exponential worth.
That’s what is lost. Not lost so much as purposefully ignored.
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Slavery was a good business model too.
A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.
I think that may be the case with the NCAA. That’s a good reason to change the rules.
Of course, it could take a very long time for this to run through the courts and for the courts to determine for or against that fact.
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By the way, I don’t know about the argument that this all about black athletes… I imagine that there are a lot of female athletes of all races that will have an opportunity to make money off their image and likeness.
Advertising likes healthy, attractive people for their products.
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bskeet said:
Slavery was a good business model too.
A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.
I think that may be the case with the NCAA. That’s a good reason to change the rules.
Of course, it could take a very long time for this to run through the courts and for the courts to determine for or against that fact.
Don’t forget the early 1900s. Imagine where this country would be without all of that “Social Justice Garbage.”
I mean, what a bunch of f-ing p*ssies. Didn’t they know retirement is for the dead? Which, conveniently, came earlier back then because of all of the health care that didn’t exist and the sick days you didn’t get. At least 16 hour days led to major profits. Well, until the 1930s. But that obviously wasn’t because they let businesses do whatever they want and the economy collapsed under it’s own weight and the majority of the workforce was left unprotected and literally out on the streets.
We only had to enact major worker’s rights, pass enormous oversight legislation, develop the largest social program to date and partake in a war that saw 80M fatalities to come out of it. Really not a big deal. Certainly no lesson to be learned in any of that. No siree.
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You know what’s the great thing about this NCAA investigation crap? It keeps us occupied to the point that we aren’t talking about the 82-3 pasting that’s coming this weekend.
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Kinda funny how Jayhawks are involved again with liberating “slavery”.
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nuleafjhawk said:
You know what’s the great thing about this NCAA investigation crap? It keeps us occupied to the point that we aren’t talking about the 82-3 pasting that’s coming this weekend.
I miss sports as a distraction from things that actually matter. This involving politics into sports is ruining it for me. I wouldn’t even watch football if it weren’t for Mahomes. I really hope LeBron and his ilk don’t ruin college basketball for me as well.
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nuleafjhawk said:
You know what’s the great thing about this NCAA investigation crap? It keeps us occupied to the point that we aren’t talking about the 82-3 pasting that’s coming this weekend.
Ahh valid point - - ahhh yes valid point indeed. - - Hell I had ALMOST forgotten there was a pasting/ - -umm I mean a game this weekend to you brought it up - - thanks lmao
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bskeet said:
Slavery was a good business model too.
A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.
I think that may be the case with the NCAA. That’s a good reason to change the rules.
Of course, it could take a very long time for this to run through the courts and for the courts to determine for or against that fact.
I’m sorry, but that is perhaps the most inflammatory and illogical comparison you could make. Straight from the NBA player handbook – at least you were able to do it in a complete sentence with enunciation of each word. It’s the type of stuff that makes your position look all that more ridiculous and makes my arguments look better.
From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.
Of course, the inconvenient fact that your statement ignores is the matter of CHOICE. But you and many others that tend to occupy one side of the political isle avoid that truth.
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Kcmatt7 said:
bskeet said:
Slavery was a good business model too.
A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.
I think that may be the case with the NCAA. That’s a good reason to change the rules.
Of course, it could take a very long time for this to run through the courts and for the courts to determine for or against that fact.
Don’t forget the early 1900s. Imagine where this country would be without all of that “Social Justice Garbage.”
I mean, what a bunch of f-ing p*ssies. Didn’t they know retirement is for the dead? Which, conveniently, came earlier back then because of all of the health care that didn’t exist and the sick days you didn’t get. At least 16 hour days led to major profits. Well, until the 1930s. But that obviously wasn’t because they let businesses do whatever they want and the economy collapsed under it’s own weight and the majority of the workforce was left unprotected and literally out on the streets.
We only had to enact major worker’s rights, pass enormous oversight legislation, develop the largest social program to date and partake in a war that saw 80M fatalities to come out of it. Really not a big deal. Certainly no lesson to be learned in any of that. No siree.
Which has nothing to do with the here and now – 2019. Not as silly of an analogy as the slavery tripe, but close.
I am all in and support the players uniting to change their conditions. To exercise their power and leverage. To refuse to play. To make demands. Now, I may disagree with their position, meaning the logic, etc. But I would completely support the exercise of that leverage/power. It’s why I support players’ right to hold out in pro sports. Or unions walking off the job. I may disagree with their flawed logic in some cases, but it’s their individual choice. It’s why I love the fact that Darius Bazely skipped college and signed with New Balance. It’s why I love that the recruit we were targeting went to play in Australia.
That tough word, CHOICE.
However, the economics of all of this doesn’t make that approach reasonable – as your example clearly did from decade’s past. But the players can band together, walk out, and exercise their power. Make the CHOICE to refuse to play. Not seeing that.
What we see are the external forces at play. Politics.
This issue is motivated by the social justice garbage. “Social justice” is much different now, than in the 1860s, 1930s, or 1960s. This is mostly about political power and really has nothing to do with the NCAA players (all sports, all skill levels).
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bskeet said:
I’m no expert on the pros and cons of allowing students to profit from their image and likeness, but one of the more compelling arguments I’ve heard is that every citizen has this right, and that the NCAA’s rule is stripping a group of people from this basic right.
I’ve heard two very impassioned arguments about how this will 1) transform women athletes and bring much greater notoriety to them, and 2) destroy women’s athletics and undo title IX… Essentially completely opposite projections on the impact. My conclusion: No one can predict what the benefits and consequences of this will really be.
My other conclusion as to why the NCAA is really fighting this: Status quo and the ability to better control what is known.
I’m sorry, just saw this. Follow here – you’re right, we have the right to profit from our likeness. This is agreed. But you can agree to sign away your rights to profit from any number of activities. You can accept benefits with conditions, and that condition can include your likeness.
You could take a job today that prohibits me from doing a whole range of things based on your agreement. The employer could say you will not buy and sell houses on the side. The employer could say you will not sell photos of yourself. Take this job and you can’t do these things. Whatever. There is a very small list of exceptions.
I seriously do not know how this stuff doesn’t register.
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@dylans Absolutley - i’m right there with you. I’ve always been a Chief’s fan and so far nobody’s screwed that up, but I really don’t give a crap about college football any more (cuz I’m a KU fan…sorrry) and I’m definitely not excited about basketball any more. I’ll watch it, but i won’t do it at the expense of missing out on other things if they come along. Like fishing, playing cards, mowing the yard, shoveling the drive, taking a nap.
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@HighEliteMajor A bit too much heat thrown, in my opinion. I meant no disrespect, but feel pretty disrespected.
I don’t think you are open to another point of view.
SO BE IT.
AMEN.
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HighEliteMajor said:
From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.
That’s certainly not what I meant.
I’m open to an explanation of how my argument leads to this conclusion.
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FWIW, the indentured servitude trope (or tripe) was not invented here.
NCAA must end its indentured servitude of college athletes
JAN 18, 2019
“In the discussion of college athlete rights, the focus has shifted over the last decade to primarily compensation for the athletes, without recognizing that the cartel deprives all college athletes of fundamental rights, like right to interstate travel, right of publicity, right of privacy, forced waiver of educational privacy rights under federal law, right to counsel, right to due process, right to private property, and so on,” said Richard Johnson, a lawyer who 10 years ago successfully sued the NCAA over its denial of college players’ using lawyers…
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@bskeet Low heat. On your statement, “A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.” And my response, “From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.” You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable. But if you believe athletes are “exploited” (again, the entire realm of NCAA athletes, not just the Andrew Wiggins’ level), then a look around America and the labor folks do that help other get rich, I think would lead easily to my conclusion. Athletes are pampered in large part, get extra tutoring, great food, nice living arrangements, gear, they get to travel/see the country, built in social life, all why attending college (some view as positive) for free (or in lower sports, a good chunk free if a partial scholarship). Every “worker” is exploited to some degree. It’s the level of exploitation that is legally important. The level of exploitation here is really very minimal compared to what we easily could argue elsewhere. I don’t even think it qualifies because there are so many other choices.
The poor fellow that can only dig ditches, no education, three kids, bills, rent, nothing in the bank account, trying to support a family – and his boss, the excavation company owner, makes him work overtime, limited pay, tough work. Let’s get real.
I also understand that your slavery comment was not the first dive into that arena and that others have made similar suggestions, such as the “indentured servitude” link you’ve provided. The term “cartel” is something folks like Jay Bilas have latched onto. Of course, purposefully inflammatory, just like the slavery comments, to make folks think “drug cartel.” But a cartel is “an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition.” That is pretty benign, really. But cartels, in practice, engage in price fixing and they squeeze competition through aggressive and mostly illegal means (like killing and threats). Like the drug cartel.
As I’ve pointed out, the NCAA does nothing significant to restrict competition. I mentioned yesterday that they don’t engage in monopolistic activity like acquiring other sports entities (or one that could be directly applicable, using threats that they won’t rent arena space if arenas rent to other leagues). And they don’t have the purpose of “high prices.” In fact, their events are very reasonably priced in most every instance. Some even free like lower level events.
This type of usage of cartel is laughable, but it fits the script of certain folks that attempt to demonize as part of their argument. “What can we say that will grab attention and paint the other side as evil?” But it has no real basis in fact.
You suggest I don’t have an open mind. I’d suggest that at every turn, I’ve refuted quite directly most every point on the topic. I’m not saying that I’m absolutely right. But I’d say that I’ve chinked the armor of you and others’ arguments pretty significantly.
I’d offer that the reaction to support the compensation of players, whatever form (likeness, etc.) that run contrary to the NCAA rules, is driven by feelings of unfairness (in large part). When feelings enter the picture, folks throw out “slavery” in opinion. Something, again, inflammatory and plainly inapplicable.
I will also offer that the NCAA did not prohibit any possible player or family from consulting a lawyer prior to accepting/signing the Letter of Intent. The lawyer’s little statement ignores again the choice to enter the organization and play by that organization’s rules. There is an entire, big world outside of NCAA sports wherein you don’t have rules that govern you – like this crazy idea of paying for your own college expenses. This attorney throws out all this blather, but the reality is that the NCAA still stands.
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HighEliteMajor said:
As I’ve pointed out, the NCAA does nothing significant to restrict competition. I mentioned yesterday that they don’t engage in monopolistic activity like acquiring other sports entities (or one that could be directly applicable, using threats that they won’t rent arena space if arenas rent to other leagues). And they don’t have the purpose of “high prices.” In fact, their events are very reasonably priced in most every instance. Some even free like lower level events.
They own a monopoly over the schools themselves. They have basically already acquired every single public 4-year university in the country.
The only competition that the NCAA has in the world of College Athletics is the NAIA, and that’s made entirely of private institutions. That is it. And the NCAA could buy them tomorrow if they wanted to.
Schools are no longer voluntarily NCAA members. In order to leave, a public institution would have to get approval from their board of regents. Which they never would get.
So the schools have no where to go, and the NCAA can make up whatever rules it wants, fines it wants, strip whatever wins, and the schools have nothing they can do about it.
Their business is derived completely from fans of member institutions, institutions that have nowhere to go. That is exactly what a monopoly is.
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@Kcmatt7 “The only competition that the NCAA has in the world of College Athletics is the NAIA, and that’s made entirely of private institutions. That is it. And the NCAA could buy them tomorrow if they wanted to.”
Some organizations don’t want to be bought out. You ever hear of any NAIA scandals or corruption? Me neither. SO how bout a couple hundred NCAA schools skip town and join the NAIA? Then THEY could buy out the NCAA.
Obviously i don’t know what i’m talking about, but i’m an idea man. You ever see the movie Night Shift? I’m Michael Keaton. "Wanna know why I carry this tape recorder? To tape things. See, I’m an idea man, Chuck. I got ideas coming at me all day… I couldn’t even fight 'em off if I wanted. Wait a second… hold the phone! Hold the phone! [speaking into tape recorder] Idea to eliminate garbage. Edible paper. You eat it, it’s gone! You eat it, it’s outta there! No more garbage! "
Hey - it’s worth a shot. Screw the NCAA
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Kcmatt7 said:
HighEliteMajor said:
As I’ve pointed out, the NCAA does nothing significant to restrict competition. I mentioned yesterday that they don’t engage in monopolistic activity like acquiring other sports entities (or one that could be directly applicable, using threats that they won’t rent arena space if arenas rent to other leagues). And they don’t have the purpose of “high prices.” In fact, their events are very reasonably priced in most every instance. Some even free like lower level events.
They own a monopoly over the schools themselves. They have basically already acquired every single public 4-year university in the country.
The only competition that the NCAA has in the world of College Athletics is the NAIA, and that’s made entirely of private institutions. That is it. And the NCAA could buy them tomorrow if they wanted to.
Schools are no longer voluntarily NCAA members. In order to leave, a public institution would have to get approval from their board of regents. Which they never would get.
So the schools have no where to go, and the NCAA can make up whatever rules it wants, fines it wants, strip whatever wins, and the schools have nothing they can do about it.
Their business is derived completely from fans of member institutions, institutions that have nowhere to go. That is exactly what a monopoly is.
Oh, I have not doubt you can argue it’s a monopoly. The fact that one entity is the sole party providing a product line is the starting point. But you are correct, my blanket statement about it not being a “monopoly” is strained.
When I say that it’s not a monopoly, I mean to focus on the illegality. There are lots of “monopolies” in fact, a single supplier, a single maker of an item – patents and trademarks create that. So I would grant you the pure “monopoly” idea inside the world of “college” sports if it weren’t for the NAIA. Even then, I think defining the sports by “college” is too restrictive to evoke the monopoly idea.
Lots of avenues for “sports” endeavors as I noted.
So my statement about it not being a monopoly would be akin to a drug company. They can compete and make drugs (the sport of basketball), but Merck might have the patent on a specific drug formulation (College BB as an analogy).
Of course, kids at the age of CBB players can play anywhere, not just CBB, so it’s a bit looser there (and helpful to my position).
We know there is no law against having a monopoly. It’s perfectly legal. There are monopolies everywhere. The antitrust laws are there to promote competition. This was the basis of the recent compensation suit. The NCAA has lost before. My point notes the non-monopolistic characteristics/facts that would defeat the illegality issue. Sometimes there are winners and losers in competition.
What I mean is that we live in an economy that promotes and allows competition. Nothing is restricted here, but more importantly, the NCAA isn’t the economic predator. But they do operate a business inside of a contained and restricted bubble.
To that point, why can’t anyone compete with the NCAA?
And to your point, the NCAA could easily “buy” the NAIA – but they haven’t.
I also would suggest that each of the schools are individuals, with competing interests, working together. Therein lies the rub, and therein is your best argument. I recognize that good arguments can be made on this item (and my opinion is just that it’s not, economically, what the government should be looking to restrict or manage). And that there is clearly some activity that can be scrutinized.
The issue for lawsuits is monopolistic activity, violation of the anti-trust laws. Very little here to see for me overall. And legally, we see very little activity with teeth in that regard.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@bskeet You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable.
I also understand that your slavery comment was not the first dive into that arena and that others have made similar suggestions, such as the “indentured servitude” link you’ve provided.
Of course, purposefully inflammatory, just like the slavery comments, to make folks think “drug cartel.”
When feelings enter the picture, folks throw out “slavery” in opinion. Something, again, inflammatory and plainly inapplicable.
I get that you are pretty bruised by the word slavery. Not meant to be inflammatory. Sorry you took offense.
There’s a lesson in rhetoric here that I get loud and clear.
Beating the point over and over again (also a rhetorical device) has not convinced me that the NCAA is not taking advantage of the collective population of student-athletes.
…And, how does any of this lead to the conclusion that the entire American workforce is exploited? That was the question for which I invited elucidation.
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@bskeet Not bruised, just recognizing the purposefully inflammatory mindset that would use such a comparison. With as much respect as possible, it’s just absolute, unequivocal nonsense. AND YOU KNOW IT. Everyone knows it. Nonsensical.
Oh, I noticed the slave Khalil Herbert has left the plantation. I don’t see a slave master chasing him down with dogs or whipping him for his CHOICE. That was after he slept in fine quarters, dined on excellent food, strode the plantation that is the KU campus as if he owned the place, and practiced his skills in front of thousands of adoring fans. Again, completely devoid of logic and used solely to inflame.
It’s interesting that we never see the counter argument on TV. We see lap dogs. ESPN round tables, or outside the lines, they just fawn over the topic. It’s no different than the media that assists left wing politicians by slanting news stories, choosing what to report, manipulating headlines, offering opinion as factual reporting, and lying about sources to serve its larger purpose – but I digress.
I agree that the NCAA is “taking advantage of” certain CBB and CFB athletes. Top level guys in those two sports are the only ones we could even consider in the discussion. Different than the idea of “exploitation” — but it’s a matter of degree. Part of my reply above was the following. Perhaps you don’t think it addressed your point. I intended to address it. See below from a post above:
@bskeet Low heat. On your statement, “A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.” And my response, “From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.” You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable. But if you believe athletes are “exploited” (again, the entire realm of NCAA athletes, not just the Andrew Wiggins’ level), then a look around America and the labor folks do that help other get rich, I think would lead easily to my conclusion. Athletes are pampered in large part, get extra tutoring, great food, nice living arrangements, gear, they get to travel/see the country, built in social life, all why attending college (some view as positive) for free (or in lower sports, a good chunk free if a partial scholarship). Every “worker” is exploited to some degree. It’s the level of exploitation that is legally important. The level of exploitation here is really very minimal compared to what we easily could argue elsewhere. I don’t even think it qualifies because there are so many other choices.
The poor fellow that can only dig ditches, no education, three kids, bills, rent, nothing in the bank account, trying to support a family – and his boss, the excavation company owner, makes him work overtime, limited pay, tough work. Let’s get real.
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@HighEliteMajor @bskeet It’s racism. That’s the point you both are bouncing around but never actually touching. White people hate talking about racism because they can’t win anymore. One of you (@bskeet ) understands at least innately if not explicitly that a big factor in this argument is the race a significant population of the players compared to the race of the significant population of the people in power. And so in your arguments you bring up former instances of racism like slavery.
The other (@HighEliteMajor ) definitely understands the racial element but seeks to remove it completely from the conversation because it’s “social justice garbage” and if he pretends race isn’t really a factor he can live in his land of logic where humanity is just weak feelings crap. Anytime someone suggests an idea that might redistribute power from top down, those in power (or at least those that look like those in power) do what they can to maintain that power.
Of course college basketball and slavery aren’t the same thing. Of course there is more choice for a college athlete today than for a slave in the 1800s or for current slaves today in the american penal system. However the RACISM driving the issue and argument is very much the same. It is impossible to discuss the conflict between a workforce made up primarily of people of color and executives who are primarily white without discussing race. I know it’s scary for us whites but we’d be better off it we’d just call it like it is and talk about the stuff we are afraid of.
Some people aren’t going to like this comment because it brings “politics” into a sports conversation but sorry, race is one of the biggest issues in sports right now. White sports fans look at black athletes making millions of dollars or getting “free rides” and think those folks should feel lucky, but ignore the white owners and execs making 100s of millions of dollars and maintaining systems that uphold that economic inequity. I’m sure HEM will argue that the owners “earned” those millions by working harder and being smarter. They didn’t. They aren’t.
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Communistic thoughts abound. Redistribution of wealth and power to those who make the most noise, but haven’t earned it is becoming the norm. I hate the current sports and political climate. I’m out guys see you when the games start, maybe.
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BigBad said:
jhawk7782 said:
Meanwhile, North Carolina landed a commitment from five-star center Walker Kessler on Sunday night.
NCAA: No Academic Violations at UNC Ruling comes despite university’s finding that many athletes were for years enrolled in and passed courses they did not attend and that were not taught by anyone.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc
I don’t buy into the “everyone else is doing it” excuse either but doesn’t it seem that the NCAA has always had double standards? Some schools seem immune to NCAA violations.
For the MILLIONTH time. The NCAA can not do ANYTHING about classes that a college accredits and offers to all students. UNC cheapened it’s university for sports, but not illegal.
Hey BigBad, I believe you but the NCAA still investigated although the ‘NCAA does not have oversight authority for university academic programs’ (wiki). Can’t the NCAA still charge the University with loss of institutional control?
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@HighEliteMajor When I tell you that it was not meant to be inflammatory and you retort that it was purposeful, then you are just picking a fight.
Presuming to know what I think or suggesting my mindset is also incendiary.
Simmer down. I can’t find the signal amidst all the noise.
You seem to be arguing that “everyone is exploited” to one extent or another, so that somehow indemnifies the NCAA. If that’s your argument, then I guess we’re philosophically on different sides. If not, sorry I don’t get it.
FWIW, I think it’s possible for a more balanced, fair and symbiotic relationship between the institution and the athletes. I think the NCAA used to preserve such a relationship, but market forces have shifted and they have not sufficiently evolved their rules and policies with the times. The NCAA is not as fair as it needs to be. It’s out of balance. They are making very small steps, but I think the market is telling them it is past due and not progressive enough.
The NCAA’s ability to resist market forces is another indicator that there aren’t adequate alternatives and they are monopolistic.
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Notable, also funny story about the weirdness that is the NCAA https://www.golf.com/news/features/2019/10/04/division-3-golf-dylan-dethier-ncaa/
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@FarmerJayhawk Yep, good example of the archaic and overly-restrictive rules. Also, fair and consistent enforcement seems to be beyond their capacity. Perhaps this is why they tend to lean toward hardline, dogmatic responses.
The motivation to change the system just isn’t there because the status quo is so lucrative — for them.
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benshawks08 said:
@HighEliteMajor @bskeet It’s racism. That’s the point you both are bouncing around but never actually touching. White people hate talking about racism because they can’t win anymore. One of you (@bskeet ) understands at least innately if not explicitly that a big factor in this argument is the race a significant population of the players compared to the race of the significant population of the people in power. And so in your arguments you bring up former instances of racism like slavery.
The other (@HighEliteMajor ) definitely understands the racial element but seeks to remove it completely from the conversation because it’s “social justice garbage” and if he pretends race isn’t really a factor he can live in his land of logic where humanity is just weak feelings crap. Anytime someone suggests an idea that might redistribute power from top down, those in power (or at least those that look like those in power) do what they can to maintain that power.
Of course college basketball and slavery aren’t the same thing. Of course there is more choice for a college athlete today than for a slave in the 1800s or for current slaves today in the american penal system. However the RACISM driving the issue and argument is very much the same. It is impossible to discuss the conflict between a workforce made up primarily of people of color and executives who are primarily white without discussing race. I know it’s scary for us whites but we’d be better off it we’d just call it like it is and talk about the stuff we are afraid of.
Some people aren’t going to like this comment because it brings “politics” into a sports conversation but sorry, race is one of the biggest issues in sports right now. White sports fans look at black athletes making millions of dollars or getting “free rides” and think those folks should feel lucky, but ignore the white owners and execs making 100s of millions of dollars and maintaining systems that uphold that economic inequity. I’m sure HEM will argue that the owners “earned” those millions by working harder and being smarter. They didn’t. They aren’t.
Bam. You have said exactly what I’ve suggested. In my mind, it’s all about the poor inner city black kid. That is the core of what has driven this issue.
And I’m sorry, I’m not going to permit my life, my thoughts, my actions, and my concerns to be predicated upon a culture that refuses to help themselves – more appropriately, a self-destructive culture.
Rahm Emanuel, an Obama democrat, the former mayor of Chicago that saw this inner city “culture” firsthand, said:
“This may not be politically correct,” he said, “but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”
He added: “If we’re going to solve this … we’ve got to have a real discussion. … Parts of the conversation cannot be off-limits because it’s not politically comfortable. … We are going to discuss issues that have been taboo in years past because they are part of the solution. … We also have a responsibility to help nurture character. It plays a role. Our kids need that moral structure in their lives. And we cannot be scared to have this conversation.”
Of course, there was anger in response, marching, verbal attacks, etc. Zero … I mean zero … mention of personal responsibility from the “other side” of this issue.
I would say that our country would be much better off if we can take what @benshawks08 said, and what Rahm Emanuel said, and honestly address what ails our inner city.
A big hint – the discussion has nothing to do with blaming inanimate objects.
As I’ve said over and over, CHOICE.
Look at my bi-line. “What in America is anyone prohibited from doing, earning, or achieving?” This is what America offers in 2019. Undeniable.
As a conservative, I’ve had it. I’ve had with the glorification of a bankrupt culture (inner city black culture) and with the continued garbage we deal with day in, and day out. To the core of my beliefs, people that hurt people, commit carnage, destroy lives, and have no morality are enemy. They are the enemy of a civil society. I don’t care what they look like. Yet we want to explain away, continually, the repulsive and destructive behavior. It’s disgusting.
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Thank the the good Lord we have good people like @wissox who works w/young kids in the inner city. @benshawks08 sounds like a great teacher too!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks.
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@HighEliteMajor odd that you say you don’t care what they look like but specifically describe the appearance of those that are your enemy. Don’t have to read between the lines to see that a person who says black culture is my enemy is engaging in racist thoughts and behavior. It’s hate speech. It’s amoral. That kind of blatant white supremacy is exactly what prohibits a whole lot of people from doing, earning, or achieving.
Side note, I have no idea what inanimate objects you are referring to.
Honest question, what is your personal responsibility? Does it end with you? Your partner? Your children? Your neighbor? Your city?
Sure a person of color has choice but can you honestly say they have the same choices as you? How often are you stopped by police? If you and a black person commit the same crime who do you think will get the harsher sentence? Did you get suspended from school for discretionary offenses? What’s the personal responsibility of the cop, the judge, the teacher, the principal?
Sure there is more choice now, but 1 generation ago there wasn’t. Every black adult has a family member who was by law prohibited from doing, earning, and achieving.
We do agree that in this case the athletes may have more power than they are using with respect to boycotts. Wonder if they’ve ever heard about any boycotts in the past? Think grandpa told them about sitting at a counter? Think an athlete’s aunt ever rode a bus?
And what about the people in power? What legacy was passed down from their families? If I’d have spent more time as a child with my uncle in Missouri who was a card carrying member of the KKK, how might my choices be different?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks. The future is bright no matter how scared some people are of it. Kids get this stuff. Kids today seem to care about people more than money so that’s a start. At least the ones I know.
