Trouble?
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nuleafjhawk said:
You know what’s the great thing about this NCAA investigation crap? It keeps us occupied to the point that we aren’t talking about the 82-3 pasting that’s coming this weekend.
Ahh valid point - - ahhh yes valid point indeed. - - Hell I had ALMOST forgotten there was a pasting/ - -umm I mean a game this weekend to you brought it up - - thanks lmao
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bskeet said:
Slavery was a good business model too.
A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.
I think that may be the case with the NCAA. That’s a good reason to change the rules.
Of course, it could take a very long time for this to run through the courts and for the courts to determine for or against that fact.
I’m sorry, but that is perhaps the most inflammatory and illogical comparison you could make. Straight from the NBA player handbook – at least you were able to do it in a complete sentence with enunciation of each word. It’s the type of stuff that makes your position look all that more ridiculous and makes my arguments look better.
From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.
Of course, the inconvenient fact that your statement ignores is the matter of CHOICE. But you and many others that tend to occupy one side of the political isle avoid that truth.
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Kcmatt7 said:
bskeet said:
Slavery was a good business model too.
A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.
I think that may be the case with the NCAA. That’s a good reason to change the rules.
Of course, it could take a very long time for this to run through the courts and for the courts to determine for or against that fact.
Don’t forget the early 1900s. Imagine where this country would be without all of that “Social Justice Garbage.”
I mean, what a bunch of f-ing p*ssies. Didn’t they know retirement is for the dead? Which, conveniently, came earlier back then because of all of the health care that didn’t exist and the sick days you didn’t get. At least 16 hour days led to major profits. Well, until the 1930s. But that obviously wasn’t because they let businesses do whatever they want and the economy collapsed under it’s own weight and the majority of the workforce was left unprotected and literally out on the streets.
We only had to enact major worker’s rights, pass enormous oversight legislation, develop the largest social program to date and partake in a war that saw 80M fatalities to come out of it. Really not a big deal. Certainly no lesson to be learned in any of that. No siree.
Which has nothing to do with the here and now – 2019. Not as silly of an analogy as the slavery tripe, but close.
I am all in and support the players uniting to change their conditions. To exercise their power and leverage. To refuse to play. To make demands. Now, I may disagree with their position, meaning the logic, etc. But I would completely support the exercise of that leverage/power. It’s why I support players’ right to hold out in pro sports. Or unions walking off the job. I may disagree with their flawed logic in some cases, but it’s their individual choice. It’s why I love the fact that Darius Bazely skipped college and signed with New Balance. It’s why I love that the recruit we were targeting went to play in Australia.
That tough word, CHOICE.
However, the economics of all of this doesn’t make that approach reasonable – as your example clearly did from decade’s past. But the players can band together, walk out, and exercise their power. Make the CHOICE to refuse to play. Not seeing that.
What we see are the external forces at play. Politics.
This issue is motivated by the social justice garbage. “Social justice” is much different now, than in the 1860s, 1930s, or 1960s. This is mostly about political power and really has nothing to do with the NCAA players (all sports, all skill levels).
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bskeet said:
I’m no expert on the pros and cons of allowing students to profit from their image and likeness, but one of the more compelling arguments I’ve heard is that every citizen has this right, and that the NCAA’s rule is stripping a group of people from this basic right.
I’ve heard two very impassioned arguments about how this will 1) transform women athletes and bring much greater notoriety to them, and 2) destroy women’s athletics and undo title IX… Essentially completely opposite projections on the impact. My conclusion: No one can predict what the benefits and consequences of this will really be.
My other conclusion as to why the NCAA is really fighting this: Status quo and the ability to better control what is known.
I’m sorry, just saw this. Follow here – you’re right, we have the right to profit from our likeness. This is agreed. But you can agree to sign away your rights to profit from any number of activities. You can accept benefits with conditions, and that condition can include your likeness.
You could take a job today that prohibits me from doing a whole range of things based on your agreement. The employer could say you will not buy and sell houses on the side. The employer could say you will not sell photos of yourself. Take this job and you can’t do these things. Whatever. There is a very small list of exceptions.
I seriously do not know how this stuff doesn’t register.
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@dylans Absolutley - i’m right there with you. I’ve always been a Chief’s fan and so far nobody’s screwed that up, but I really don’t give a crap about college football any more (cuz I’m a KU fan…sorrry) and I’m definitely not excited about basketball any more. I’ll watch it, but i won’t do it at the expense of missing out on other things if they come along. Like fishing, playing cards, mowing the yard, shoveling the drive, taking a nap.
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@HighEliteMajor A bit too much heat thrown, in my opinion. I meant no disrespect, but feel pretty disrespected.
I don’t think you are open to another point of view.
SO BE IT.
AMEN.
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HighEliteMajor said:
From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.
That’s certainly not what I meant.
I’m open to an explanation of how my argument leads to this conclusion.
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FWIW, the indentured servitude trope (or tripe) was not invented here.
NCAA must end its indentured servitude of college athletes
JAN 18, 2019
“In the discussion of college athlete rights, the focus has shifted over the last decade to primarily compensation for the athletes, without recognizing that the cartel deprives all college athletes of fundamental rights, like right to interstate travel, right of publicity, right of privacy, forced waiver of educational privacy rights under federal law, right to counsel, right to due process, right to private property, and so on,” said Richard Johnson, a lawyer who 10 years ago successfully sued the NCAA over its denial of college players’ using lawyers…
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@bskeet Low heat. On your statement, “A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.” And my response, “From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.” You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable. But if you believe athletes are “exploited” (again, the entire realm of NCAA athletes, not just the Andrew Wiggins’ level), then a look around America and the labor folks do that help other get rich, I think would lead easily to my conclusion. Athletes are pampered in large part, get extra tutoring, great food, nice living arrangements, gear, they get to travel/see the country, built in social life, all why attending college (some view as positive) for free (or in lower sports, a good chunk free if a partial scholarship). Every “worker” is exploited to some degree. It’s the level of exploitation that is legally important. The level of exploitation here is really very minimal compared to what we easily could argue elsewhere. I don’t even think it qualifies because there are so many other choices.
The poor fellow that can only dig ditches, no education, three kids, bills, rent, nothing in the bank account, trying to support a family – and his boss, the excavation company owner, makes him work overtime, limited pay, tough work. Let’s get real.
I also understand that your slavery comment was not the first dive into that arena and that others have made similar suggestions, such as the “indentured servitude” link you’ve provided. The term “cartel” is something folks like Jay Bilas have latched onto. Of course, purposefully inflammatory, just like the slavery comments, to make folks think “drug cartel.” But a cartel is “an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition.” That is pretty benign, really. But cartels, in practice, engage in price fixing and they squeeze competition through aggressive and mostly illegal means (like killing and threats). Like the drug cartel.
As I’ve pointed out, the NCAA does nothing significant to restrict competition. I mentioned yesterday that they don’t engage in monopolistic activity like acquiring other sports entities (or one that could be directly applicable, using threats that they won’t rent arena space if arenas rent to other leagues). And they don’t have the purpose of “high prices.” In fact, their events are very reasonably priced in most every instance. Some even free like lower level events.
This type of usage of cartel is laughable, but it fits the script of certain folks that attempt to demonize as part of their argument. “What can we say that will grab attention and paint the other side as evil?” But it has no real basis in fact.
You suggest I don’t have an open mind. I’d suggest that at every turn, I’ve refuted quite directly most every point on the topic. I’m not saying that I’m absolutely right. But I’d say that I’ve chinked the armor of you and others’ arguments pretty significantly.
I’d offer that the reaction to support the compensation of players, whatever form (likeness, etc.) that run contrary to the NCAA rules, is driven by feelings of unfairness (in large part). When feelings enter the picture, folks throw out “slavery” in opinion. Something, again, inflammatory and plainly inapplicable.
I will also offer that the NCAA did not prohibit any possible player or family from consulting a lawyer prior to accepting/signing the Letter of Intent. The lawyer’s little statement ignores again the choice to enter the organization and play by that organization’s rules. There is an entire, big world outside of NCAA sports wherein you don’t have rules that govern you – like this crazy idea of paying for your own college expenses. This attorney throws out all this blather, but the reality is that the NCAA still stands.
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HighEliteMajor said:
As I’ve pointed out, the NCAA does nothing significant to restrict competition. I mentioned yesterday that they don’t engage in monopolistic activity like acquiring other sports entities (or one that could be directly applicable, using threats that they won’t rent arena space if arenas rent to other leagues). And they don’t have the purpose of “high prices.” In fact, their events are very reasonably priced in most every instance. Some even free like lower level events.
They own a monopoly over the schools themselves. They have basically already acquired every single public 4-year university in the country.
The only competition that the NCAA has in the world of College Athletics is the NAIA, and that’s made entirely of private institutions. That is it. And the NCAA could buy them tomorrow if they wanted to.
Schools are no longer voluntarily NCAA members. In order to leave, a public institution would have to get approval from their board of regents. Which they never would get.
So the schools have no where to go, and the NCAA can make up whatever rules it wants, fines it wants, strip whatever wins, and the schools have nothing they can do about it.
Their business is derived completely from fans of member institutions, institutions that have nowhere to go. That is exactly what a monopoly is.
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@Kcmatt7 “The only competition that the NCAA has in the world of College Athletics is the NAIA, and that’s made entirely of private institutions. That is it. And the NCAA could buy them tomorrow if they wanted to.”
Some organizations don’t want to be bought out. You ever hear of any NAIA scandals or corruption? Me neither. SO how bout a couple hundred NCAA schools skip town and join the NAIA? Then THEY could buy out the NCAA.
Obviously i don’t know what i’m talking about, but i’m an idea man. You ever see the movie Night Shift? I’m Michael Keaton. "Wanna know why I carry this tape recorder? To tape things. See, I’m an idea man, Chuck. I got ideas coming at me all day… I couldn’t even fight 'em off if I wanted. Wait a second… hold the phone! Hold the phone! [speaking into tape recorder] Idea to eliminate garbage. Edible paper. You eat it, it’s gone! You eat it, it’s outta there! No more garbage! "
Hey - it’s worth a shot. Screw the NCAA
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Kcmatt7 said:
HighEliteMajor said:
As I’ve pointed out, the NCAA does nothing significant to restrict competition. I mentioned yesterday that they don’t engage in monopolistic activity like acquiring other sports entities (or one that could be directly applicable, using threats that they won’t rent arena space if arenas rent to other leagues). And they don’t have the purpose of “high prices.” In fact, their events are very reasonably priced in most every instance. Some even free like lower level events.
They own a monopoly over the schools themselves. They have basically already acquired every single public 4-year university in the country.
The only competition that the NCAA has in the world of College Athletics is the NAIA, and that’s made entirely of private institutions. That is it. And the NCAA could buy them tomorrow if they wanted to.
Schools are no longer voluntarily NCAA members. In order to leave, a public institution would have to get approval from their board of regents. Which they never would get.
So the schools have no where to go, and the NCAA can make up whatever rules it wants, fines it wants, strip whatever wins, and the schools have nothing they can do about it.
Their business is derived completely from fans of member institutions, institutions that have nowhere to go. That is exactly what a monopoly is.
Oh, I have not doubt you can argue it’s a monopoly. The fact that one entity is the sole party providing a product line is the starting point. But you are correct, my blanket statement about it not being a “monopoly” is strained.
When I say that it’s not a monopoly, I mean to focus on the illegality. There are lots of “monopolies” in fact, a single supplier, a single maker of an item – patents and trademarks create that. So I would grant you the pure “monopoly” idea inside the world of “college” sports if it weren’t for the NAIA. Even then, I think defining the sports by “college” is too restrictive to evoke the monopoly idea.
Lots of avenues for “sports” endeavors as I noted.
So my statement about it not being a monopoly would be akin to a drug company. They can compete and make drugs (the sport of basketball), but Merck might have the patent on a specific drug formulation (College BB as an analogy).
Of course, kids at the age of CBB players can play anywhere, not just CBB, so it’s a bit looser there (and helpful to my position).
We know there is no law against having a monopoly. It’s perfectly legal. There are monopolies everywhere. The antitrust laws are there to promote competition. This was the basis of the recent compensation suit. The NCAA has lost before. My point notes the non-monopolistic characteristics/facts that would defeat the illegality issue. Sometimes there are winners and losers in competition.
What I mean is that we live in an economy that promotes and allows competition. Nothing is restricted here, but more importantly, the NCAA isn’t the economic predator. But they do operate a business inside of a contained and restricted bubble.
To that point, why can’t anyone compete with the NCAA?
And to your point, the NCAA could easily “buy” the NAIA – but they haven’t.
I also would suggest that each of the schools are individuals, with competing interests, working together. Therein lies the rub, and therein is your best argument. I recognize that good arguments can be made on this item (and my opinion is just that it’s not, economically, what the government should be looking to restrict or manage). And that there is clearly some activity that can be scrutinized.
The issue for lawsuits is monopolistic activity, violation of the anti-trust laws. Very little here to see for me overall. And legally, we see very little activity with teeth in that regard.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@bskeet You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable.
I also understand that your slavery comment was not the first dive into that arena and that others have made similar suggestions, such as the “indentured servitude” link you’ve provided.
Of course, purposefully inflammatory, just like the slavery comments, to make folks think “drug cartel.”
When feelings enter the picture, folks throw out “slavery” in opinion. Something, again, inflammatory and plainly inapplicable.
I get that you are pretty bruised by the word slavery. Not meant to be inflammatory. Sorry you took offense.
There’s a lesson in rhetoric here that I get loud and clear.
Beating the point over and over again (also a rhetorical device) has not convinced me that the NCAA is not taking advantage of the collective population of student-athletes.
…And, how does any of this lead to the conclusion that the entire American workforce is exploited? That was the question for which I invited elucidation.
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@bskeet Not bruised, just recognizing the purposefully inflammatory mindset that would use such a comparison. With as much respect as possible, it’s just absolute, unequivocal nonsense. AND YOU KNOW IT. Everyone knows it. Nonsensical.
Oh, I noticed the slave Khalil Herbert has left the plantation. I don’t see a slave master chasing him down with dogs or whipping him for his CHOICE. That was after he slept in fine quarters, dined on excellent food, strode the plantation that is the KU campus as if he owned the place, and practiced his skills in front of thousands of adoring fans. Again, completely devoid of logic and used solely to inflame.
It’s interesting that we never see the counter argument on TV. We see lap dogs. ESPN round tables, or outside the lines, they just fawn over the topic. It’s no different than the media that assists left wing politicians by slanting news stories, choosing what to report, manipulating headlines, offering opinion as factual reporting, and lying about sources to serve its larger purpose – but I digress.
I agree that the NCAA is “taking advantage of” certain CBB and CFB athletes. Top level guys in those two sports are the only ones we could even consider in the discussion. Different than the idea of “exploitation” — but it’s a matter of degree. Part of my reply above was the following. Perhaps you don’t think it addressed your point. I intended to address it. See below from a post above:
@bskeet Low heat. On your statement, “A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.” And my response, “From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.” You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable. But if you believe athletes are “exploited” (again, the entire realm of NCAA athletes, not just the Andrew Wiggins’ level), then a look around America and the labor folks do that help other get rich, I think would lead easily to my conclusion. Athletes are pampered in large part, get extra tutoring, great food, nice living arrangements, gear, they get to travel/see the country, built in social life, all why attending college (some view as positive) for free (or in lower sports, a good chunk free if a partial scholarship). Every “worker” is exploited to some degree. It’s the level of exploitation that is legally important. The level of exploitation here is really very minimal compared to what we easily could argue elsewhere. I don’t even think it qualifies because there are so many other choices.
The poor fellow that can only dig ditches, no education, three kids, bills, rent, nothing in the bank account, trying to support a family – and his boss, the excavation company owner, makes him work overtime, limited pay, tough work. Let’s get real.
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@HighEliteMajor @bskeet It’s racism. That’s the point you both are bouncing around but never actually touching. White people hate talking about racism because they can’t win anymore. One of you (@bskeet ) understands at least innately if not explicitly that a big factor in this argument is the race a significant population of the players compared to the race of the significant population of the people in power. And so in your arguments you bring up former instances of racism like slavery.
The other (@HighEliteMajor ) definitely understands the racial element but seeks to remove it completely from the conversation because it’s “social justice garbage” and if he pretends race isn’t really a factor he can live in his land of logic where humanity is just weak feelings crap. Anytime someone suggests an idea that might redistribute power from top down, those in power (or at least those that look like those in power) do what they can to maintain that power.
Of course college basketball and slavery aren’t the same thing. Of course there is more choice for a college athlete today than for a slave in the 1800s or for current slaves today in the american penal system. However the RACISM driving the issue and argument is very much the same. It is impossible to discuss the conflict between a workforce made up primarily of people of color and executives who are primarily white without discussing race. I know it’s scary for us whites but we’d be better off it we’d just call it like it is and talk about the stuff we are afraid of.
Some people aren’t going to like this comment because it brings “politics” into a sports conversation but sorry, race is one of the biggest issues in sports right now. White sports fans look at black athletes making millions of dollars or getting “free rides” and think those folks should feel lucky, but ignore the white owners and execs making 100s of millions of dollars and maintaining systems that uphold that economic inequity. I’m sure HEM will argue that the owners “earned” those millions by working harder and being smarter. They didn’t. They aren’t.
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Communistic thoughts abound. Redistribution of wealth and power to those who make the most noise, but haven’t earned it is becoming the norm. I hate the current sports and political climate. I’m out guys see you when the games start, maybe.
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BigBad said:
jhawk7782 said:
Meanwhile, North Carolina landed a commitment from five-star center Walker Kessler on Sunday night.
NCAA: No Academic Violations at UNC Ruling comes despite university’s finding that many athletes were for years enrolled in and passed courses they did not attend and that were not taught by anyone.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc
I don’t buy into the “everyone else is doing it” excuse either but doesn’t it seem that the NCAA has always had double standards? Some schools seem immune to NCAA violations.
For the MILLIONTH time. The NCAA can not do ANYTHING about classes that a college accredits and offers to all students. UNC cheapened it’s university for sports, but not illegal.
Hey BigBad, I believe you but the NCAA still investigated although the ‘NCAA does not have oversight authority for university academic programs’ (wiki). Can’t the NCAA still charge the University with loss of institutional control?
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@HighEliteMajor When I tell you that it was not meant to be inflammatory and you retort that it was purposeful, then you are just picking a fight.
Presuming to know what I think or suggesting my mindset is also incendiary.
Simmer down. I can’t find the signal amidst all the noise.
You seem to be arguing that “everyone is exploited” to one extent or another, so that somehow indemnifies the NCAA. If that’s your argument, then I guess we’re philosophically on different sides. If not, sorry I don’t get it.
FWIW, I think it’s possible for a more balanced, fair and symbiotic relationship between the institution and the athletes. I think the NCAA used to preserve such a relationship, but market forces have shifted and they have not sufficiently evolved their rules and policies with the times. The NCAA is not as fair as it needs to be. It’s out of balance. They are making very small steps, but I think the market is telling them it is past due and not progressive enough.
The NCAA’s ability to resist market forces is another indicator that there aren’t adequate alternatives and they are monopolistic.
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Notable, also funny story about the weirdness that is the NCAA https://www.golf.com/news/features/2019/10/04/division-3-golf-dylan-dethier-ncaa/
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@FarmerJayhawk Yep, good example of the archaic and overly-restrictive rules. Also, fair and consistent enforcement seems to be beyond their capacity. Perhaps this is why they tend to lean toward hardline, dogmatic responses.
The motivation to change the system just isn’t there because the status quo is so lucrative — for them.
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benshawks08 said:
@HighEliteMajor @bskeet It’s racism. That’s the point you both are bouncing around but never actually touching. White people hate talking about racism because they can’t win anymore. One of you (@bskeet ) understands at least innately if not explicitly that a big factor in this argument is the race a significant population of the players compared to the race of the significant population of the people in power. And so in your arguments you bring up former instances of racism like slavery.
The other (@HighEliteMajor ) definitely understands the racial element but seeks to remove it completely from the conversation because it’s “social justice garbage” and if he pretends race isn’t really a factor he can live in his land of logic where humanity is just weak feelings crap. Anytime someone suggests an idea that might redistribute power from top down, those in power (or at least those that look like those in power) do what they can to maintain that power.
Of course college basketball and slavery aren’t the same thing. Of course there is more choice for a college athlete today than for a slave in the 1800s or for current slaves today in the american penal system. However the RACISM driving the issue and argument is very much the same. It is impossible to discuss the conflict between a workforce made up primarily of people of color and executives who are primarily white without discussing race. I know it’s scary for us whites but we’d be better off it we’d just call it like it is and talk about the stuff we are afraid of.
Some people aren’t going to like this comment because it brings “politics” into a sports conversation but sorry, race is one of the biggest issues in sports right now. White sports fans look at black athletes making millions of dollars or getting “free rides” and think those folks should feel lucky, but ignore the white owners and execs making 100s of millions of dollars and maintaining systems that uphold that economic inequity. I’m sure HEM will argue that the owners “earned” those millions by working harder and being smarter. They didn’t. They aren’t.
Bam. You have said exactly what I’ve suggested. In my mind, it’s all about the poor inner city black kid. That is the core of what has driven this issue.
And I’m sorry, I’m not going to permit my life, my thoughts, my actions, and my concerns to be predicated upon a culture that refuses to help themselves – more appropriately, a self-destructive culture.
Rahm Emanuel, an Obama democrat, the former mayor of Chicago that saw this inner city “culture” firsthand, said:
“This may not be politically correct,” he said, “but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”
He added: “If we’re going to solve this … we’ve got to have a real discussion. … Parts of the conversation cannot be off-limits because it’s not politically comfortable. … We are going to discuss issues that have been taboo in years past because they are part of the solution. … We also have a responsibility to help nurture character. It plays a role. Our kids need that moral structure in their lives. And we cannot be scared to have this conversation.”
Of course, there was anger in response, marching, verbal attacks, etc. Zero … I mean zero … mention of personal responsibility from the “other side” of this issue.
I would say that our country would be much better off if we can take what @benshawks08 said, and what Rahm Emanuel said, and honestly address what ails our inner city.
A big hint – the discussion has nothing to do with blaming inanimate objects.
As I’ve said over and over, CHOICE.
Look at my bi-line. “What in America is anyone prohibited from doing, earning, or achieving?” This is what America offers in 2019. Undeniable.
As a conservative, I’ve had it. I’ve had with the glorification of a bankrupt culture (inner city black culture) and with the continued garbage we deal with day in, and day out. To the core of my beliefs, people that hurt people, commit carnage, destroy lives, and have no morality are enemy. They are the enemy of a civil society. I don’t care what they look like. Yet we want to explain away, continually, the repulsive and destructive behavior. It’s disgusting.
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Thank the the good Lord we have good people like @wissox who works w/young kids in the inner city. @benshawks08 sounds like a great teacher too!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks.
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@HighEliteMajor odd that you say you don’t care what they look like but specifically describe the appearance of those that are your enemy. Don’t have to read between the lines to see that a person who says black culture is my enemy is engaging in racist thoughts and behavior. It’s hate speech. It’s amoral. That kind of blatant white supremacy is exactly what prohibits a whole lot of people from doing, earning, or achieving.
Side note, I have no idea what inanimate objects you are referring to.
Honest question, what is your personal responsibility? Does it end with you? Your partner? Your children? Your neighbor? Your city?
Sure a person of color has choice but can you honestly say they have the same choices as you? How often are you stopped by police? If you and a black person commit the same crime who do you think will get the harsher sentence? Did you get suspended from school for discretionary offenses? What’s the personal responsibility of the cop, the judge, the teacher, the principal?
Sure there is more choice now, but 1 generation ago there wasn’t. Every black adult has a family member who was by law prohibited from doing, earning, and achieving.
We do agree that in this case the athletes may have more power than they are using with respect to boycotts. Wonder if they’ve ever heard about any boycotts in the past? Think grandpa told them about sitting at a counter? Think an athlete’s aunt ever rode a bus?
And what about the people in power? What legacy was passed down from their families? If I’d have spent more time as a child with my uncle in Missouri who was a card carrying member of the KKK, how might my choices be different?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks. The future is bright no matter how scared some people are of it. Kids get this stuff. Kids today seem to care about people more than money so that’s a start. At least the ones I know.
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@benshawks08 Please note the distinction. “Inner city black culture.” It has nothing to do with my black neighbor.
Inner city black culture. You know what it is. I know what it is. We all know what it is. You can turn your back on it, cry racism. I don’t give one good d*** what you think about me.
I care about our country. The absolute violence and carnage brought on our country by the inner city black culture is astounding and unmatched. Don’t talk to me about the 1800s or 1930, or whatever. This is today.
Look at Late Night at AFH and the disgusting show put on in the name of our university. All in the name of ATTRACTING the black athlete. We should all be absolutely embarrassed. This is what is needed to gets kids to sign? Disgusting.
I watched suburban kids try to mimic the disgusting culture. Pants hanging halfway down their a** — an inner city black culture invention to glorify the gangster in jail that has no belt and can’t keep his pants up. Just beautiful.
More importantly than that, a culture of drive by shootings, random acts of carnage, roaming gangs — a culture where choosing to grab a gun and kill someone is ingrained. Daily. Not here and there. DAILY.
Among blacks, 73% of births are out of wedlock. In the inner city, much higher. That has steadily increased since the 60s. To me, this is the most important cause of the inner city destruction we see now.
Worse, black dads with multiple children, with multiple women. It’s an epidemic in the inner city black communities. Heck, look at our BB teams. Who’s got a dad? Whose dad is in jail. Whose mom has the same last name as her son? How many half brothers and half sisters?
This is the plague of the inner city black culture — the answer to the “why.”
And racism is the problem. What a joke.
So don’t give me this racism crap. I don’t care what you call it. I call it reality.
When I see a buddy of mine, a black surgeon, actively trying to keep his kids AWAY from the inner city black culture, that is a huge answer for me. When I hear him discuss it, it cements it.
It’s really sick. We see a “mass” shooting, 10 dead, 20 injured. Horrific. But then we IGNORE the carnage of a single night in Chicago, or a weekend in STL, or you name the Inner city (the deep blue voting areas by no coincidence).
Why? Because the ANSWER makes you uncomfortable. You and others like you operate on feelings. Not facts. You want to normalize abhorrent behavior. You’ll blame everything except the personal behavior.
You are the dangerous enabler. Well intentioned. But when there are so many folks that provide excuses, refuse to demand personal responsibility, we have what we see in the inner cities. It’s easier to give things away than make demands.
Are you proud?
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HighEliteMajor said:
@benshawks08 Please note the distinction. “Inner city black culture.” It has nothing to do with my black neighbor.
Inner city black culture. You know what it is. I know what it is. We all know what it is. You can turn your back on it, cry racism. I don’t give one good d*** what you think about me.
I care about our country. The absolute violence and carnage brought on our country by the inner city black culture is astounding and unmatched. Don’t talk to me about the 1800s or 1930, or whatever. This is today.
Look at Late Night at AFH and the disgusting show put on in the name of our university. All in the name of ATTRACTING the black athlete. We should all be absolutely embarrassed. This is what is needed to gets kids to sign? Disgusting.
I watched suburban kids try to mimic the disgusting culture. Pants hanging halfway down their a** — an inner city black culture invention to glorify the gangster in jail that has no belt and can’t keep his pants up. Just beautiful.
More importantly than that, a culture of drive by shootings, random acts of carnage, roaming gangs — a culture where choosing to grab a gun and kill someone is ingrained. Daily. Not here and there. DAILY.
Among blacks, 73% of births are out of wedlock. In the inner city, much higher. That has steadily increased since the 60s. To me, this is the most important cause of the inner city destruction we see now.
Worse, black dads with multiple children, with multiple women. It’s an epidemic in the inner city black communities. Heck, look at our BB teams. Who’s got a dad? Whose dad is in jail. Whose mom has the same last name as her son? How many half brothers and half sisters?
This is the plague of the inner city black culture — the answer to the “why.”
And racism is the problem. What a joke.
So don’t give me this racism crap. I don’t care what you call it. I call it reality.
When I see a buddy of mine, a black surgeon, actively trying to keep his kids AWAY from the inner city black culture, that is a huge answer for me. When I hear him discuss it, it cements it.
It’s really sick. We see a “mass” shooting, 10 dead, 20 injured. Horrific. But then we IGNORE the carnage of a single night in Chicago, or a weekend in STL, or you name the Inner city (the deep blue voting areas by no coincidence).
Why? Because the ANSWER makes you uncomfortable. You and others like you operate on feelings. Not facts. You want to normalize abhorrent behavior. You’ll blame everything except the personal behavior.
You are the dangerous enabler. Well intentioned. But when there are so many folks that provide excuses, refuse to demand personal responsibility, we have what we see in the inner cities. It’s easier to give things away than make demands.
Are you proud?
UMM , UMM , UMM
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@HighEliteMajor Some people don’t like the answers to hard questions. I’ve been a foster parent for nearly 8 years now and race has no meaning to me so I’ve had Hispanic children and African American children (I love all children). I’ve had 3 and a 4 year olds in my house at that were already saying things like “f*** the police” , “f*** white people” and several other things that would probably get me removed from this blog. I had very rough upbringing and spent time living in a low income predominantly African American neighborhood. 90% of my friends lived with their moms and their mom didnt have any rules or discipline them. Over 70% of children in the inner will grow up without a father figure. To say abouslutely none of that is their fault is a load of crap. I’ve always enjoyed watching Judge Joe Brown and more times than I count he has told these young men to “Man up and take care of their children”. When I didnt do my home work my step whipped my a** with a leather belt. When my friends didnt, they got no punishment. They didnt get in trouble for skipping school or starting fights. So what happened to some my old friends? One them is in prison for murder, one of them is dead. But there are some that decided they didnt want to live that life. They got jobs and worked, just I like I did. You are in control of what you do, no one else.
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@HighEliteMajor Oh I didn’t realize you had a black friend. I retract my claim. You must not be racist.
You ask “WHY” and I really don’t know what you are referring him to. You say I’m afraid of the answer yet I see you didn’t answer any questions of mine. Wonder why that is?
Sorry fellow bucketeers, but my morals prevent me seeing racism and not calling it out. This is some of the most blatant racist ranting I have seen in a while and don’t think we should let it go unanswered.
If your not feeling anything or using your emotional capacity as a human being to impact your thoughts and actions you may need to seek some professional help. Emotions aren’t bad. They are a fairly significant aspect of the human experience.
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@kjayhawks I tell my students almost every single day, “the only persons actions you can control are your own” but to say an individual has full autonomy to do whatever they want is just silly. If you didn’t believe your actions could have an influence on those kids, you wouldn’t do what you do. Surely as a foster parent you’ve seen the impacts an environment can have on a child. Thank you for fostering kids of all races, ethnicities and cultures.
It’s tragic the fear and trauma that a small child saying those kinds of things must have endured. Is some of that responsibility shared by the parent. Of course. Is it also shared by police and white people? Probably.
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@benshawks08 Actions without proper consequences are part of the problem. Every situation is different and yes sometimes a white person is very well responsible for some of those issues. I felt that you insinuated that all problems in the inner cities are all on some else. I’m changing my small piece of the world as much a can. I refuse to ever give up on children. I’ve tried to teach several kids in our care that they can be loved and break the cycle that lays behind them. We have only taken in younger kids and the difference with discipline and love makes is unbelievable. Kids love to have rules, they know you care about them at that point.
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@kjayhawks I’m not trying to insinuate that people don’t have agency in their actions. I am trying to make some people think about their own personal responsibility instead of talking only about how this is someone else’s problem. And again, the racism is undeniable, right? Tell me I’m not the only one who sees it for what it is.
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@kjayhawks just hope you’re not whipping them w/a belt.
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@benshawks08 I dont believe @HighEliteMajor is trying to be racist personally. I think he can be harsh for sure though. It is our responsibility a residents in this country and of the world to help whom ever we can. I just wished more people in Washington and these celebrities that claim to care would step up do something besides put their name on gym and never return. If I won the lottery I would spend every dime with children in the inner city, the foster children that age out of care and are left in the street and a big rescue center for animals.
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@Crimsonorblue22 It is against the law to punish a foster with physical harm. I dont believe in belts. Standing the corner is my go to, then explaining to them in matter they can relate to as to why it was wrong.
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@kjayhawks I’d hope most people aren’t trying to be racist in 2019. I’m sure most don’t feel they are but it doesn’t mean the things they say and do aren’t. Being accidentally racist doesn’t make someone a bad person. Now, having it pointed out and continuing without changing starts a different story. An open mind is a wonderful thing. Open to learning about others and most importantly learning about ourselves.
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@Crimsonorblue22 honestly I’m against spanking in general. I don’t want my children to fear failure or feel like they will be physically attacked. I want my kids to understand mentally what’s right and wrong.
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@Crimsonorblue22 The personal responsibility folks are going to lose it over this, but research shows punishment in general has a negative impact on future behavior. Positive reinforcement is much better at eliminating negative behaviors. Same for dogs, kids and adults.
Decision is do you want to feel good about punishing someone or do you want to change the behavior. For some people the feeling is more important.
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You don’t need money to make a difference, look at @wissox. I’m sure he could be working somewhere else and making much more money. It’s on his heart to work w/inner city kids, not continually gripe about them. He is making a difference, as well as @benshawks08 wherever he is teaching. There are probably more good people on here that are teachers, coaches and/or mentors to kids.
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@benshawks08 It’s easy to cry racist. Simple minded, of course. Easy. The “go to” when facts get in the way. I knew of course when I mentioned my black friend, and I have one, you’d make that comment. I have another that I consider a friend, an architect, but we’ve not been in contact as our kids went to different high schools. Your simplistic mocking of that portion of my comment truly defines your shallowness on this topic. That’s leftist playbook 101.
Oh, emotions are good. They can many time lead to the correct conclusions. But here, your (and others) emotions and feelings drive you away from facts and logic. Your empathy for human suffering, for kids that did nothing to cause their plight, blind you to the “why.” You and others are overwhelmed by that.
Your convulsive “racist” claims of course define your approach to the facts. Facts you can’t refute. Realities you can’t refute.
And in your response to @kjayhawks, don’t try this, “oh, it happens with white people” stuff. Of course it does. Everything does. We all know that. White people are thugs too. All races. The worst killers in world history have been white – Hitler and Stalin. That culture was toxic and horrific.
We’re talking here and now in America. And we’re talking percentages and degrees. That’s what’s important. Where is the core of violence, who commits it, and why? That’s what we’re talking about.
In 1964, 24% of black kids were born out of wedlock. Last stat known, it was 73% for black kids now (and much higher in the inner city). For whites, it’s about 28% last I saw. If pointing out that troubling reality, and the horrific conduct that is part of the inner city black culture, is racist by your definition, fine.
If you don’t have parents in the home, teaching the proper lessons, what chance does a kid have?
We spend out time wringing our hands over the mass shootings (which are of course horrible too) but we see very little about the inner city carnage? I little kid is shot on his porch and it’s on the third page of the paper. Three get shot and because it’s drug related, we gloss over it. As a conservative, every life is important to me. Every one. And the constant dismissal of this conduct and violence as back page news, or no news, is just repulsive to me.
Finally, your post above, “racism is undeniable.” Correct. That’s easy. But it’s again percentages and degrees. Now, we’re in a much different world and have been for quite a while. There will always be racism. So you always have that to fall back on. Try thinking. Analyzing. Searching for why. Past racism is a part of that answer. I don’t deny that, and never have.
But that excuse/rationale is every decreasing and is now far, far outweighed by opportunity. But when the opportunity is not seized, when folks commit crimes and fail, they rely on you (and others like you) for the ever present excuse – racism. It will always be there for you. Everything with you comes back to racism and that is, by itself, completely illogical.
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@benshawks08 I absolutely hate parents that are excited to spank their kids. My step father was that way. He jump up with a smile on his face and sprint to the belt. Sick SOB he was but that’s another topic.
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@benshawks08 agree!
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@Crimsonorblue22 my wife taught in the some of the rough public schools in St. Louis for several years. We do what we can for sure.
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@HighEliteMajor @benshawks08 That is the issue for me, I do not claim any side when it comes to politics. But right now there is no middle. If I disagree with a Democrat I’m a racist and a Nazi. Which is sickening to compare someone to Hitler or a Nazi. I’ll have to try and find a article that a holocaust survivor wrote about insulting that is to them.
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@HighEliteMajor I only “cry racism” when you write racist things. It’s not every answer but it is an answer you refuse to accept. I ask again where you are getting these percentages not as an argumentative tool but as one of curiosity. Just curious about your source.
Poverty, violence, trauma, racism are cycles and systems that continually feed themselves.
And you are definitely right that opportunity is a huge part of the answer. And just like there are percentages and degrees with racism, those same percentages and degrees exist with opportunity. Does everyone have an opportunity? Sure. The same opportunity? As many opportunities? That’s where you and I don’t see eye to eye.
And no I will never turn off my empathy. I’d encourage you to turn yours up a few notches but you are of course free to do and think what you choose.
If you really care about every life, which I truly think is an honest belief you hold, do some research about work being done to help people and consider funding some with that big salary you try so hard to hold onto. Assigning blame doesn’t actually fix anything.
Appreciation to @Crimsonorblue22 and @kjayhawks and all the others for doing the work.
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It’s CULTURE not race. A few hundred years from now history books will look back at this time and use it as an example that multiculturalism doesn’t work. If you think you are different you are either ignorant or naive. If you think its taught then look at any school cafeteria and see how kids congregate with similar cultures. In school culture is jocks, nerds, artsy types, etc. In real life it’s religion, political belief, family background and culture. Cultures will ALWAYS clash.
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Race is the #1 determining factor in predicting success of students in education. There are other factors but race is #1. Look at test scores, graduation rate, degrees earned, anything.
You can draw two conclusions from that data: The educational system does not serve all students equally based on race.
Or
Students who are not white are not as capable of success.
Hint: the second one is racist.
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@benshawks08 clearly institutionalized problems don’t exist and these non white kids are simply… Yeah I can’t even finish this as a joke.
