Self's Worst Team at KU
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I’m going to rile a few feathers here? Yet I place the blame at Graham’s feet. Don’t get me wrong there is enough blame to go around. Poor Defense, Poor rebounding, Lack of depth in the paint, and yes some poor Coaching.
Yet I get this feeling if BIFM were playing last night. KU doesn’t lose. I can see it right now. OK boys you want to extend the defense to stop our shooters then it’s going to be a war in the paint. Mister Mason would’ve strapped it on and went to the paint with a fury. Time and time again he would’ve gone into the paint. This would have affected the team play and mind sight. The other KU players too would have started going into the paint as they would be feeding of their leader.
This leader of toughness is what is truly lacking. KU hasn’t always had that big time scorer to carry the team, but they’ve always had that kid would get damn mean and turn the paint into a war zone.
Help maybe on the way. From what I Hear Desousa is a junk yard dog.
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The way I see it, KU has two problems it needs to address.
First, KU is right know a one trick pony and what Coach Self said once upon a time about 3 point shooting being fool’s gold, that many made fun at the time, has now become reality. The team has become so dependent on the 3 that when it is not working, even at friendly AFH, KU has nothing else to use. Live by the 3 and die by the 3 is particularly applicable for this team. KU tried to penetrate but it was largely ineffective and too little and too late.
Next, the best rebounder is Garret and he is not playing much. As much as I like Doke, he still has way too much to learn and he has really not come even close to understanding what position and boxing out are. On defense, when he should be boxing out opposing players he is the one being boxed out instead and thus his rebounding is not close to what it should be. Last night Tech. players roamed the paint with impunity and out rebounded KU 44-29 and 18-8 on offensive rebounds. On offense, Doke does not know how to get himself in position to receive the pass inside like Lucas did; last night he should have absolutely dominated inside and yet he had only 11 points and 7 rebounds when he should have had a 20-15 game against a shorter Tech. team. At least, this is the area where De Sousa and Preston can likely provide immediate help, provide they ever play this season. De Sousa will likely playing soon but he would be the lesser of the contributors where Preston could provide immediate help but the chances of him playing any time soon seem more remote every day.
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@DoubleDD I don’t think you and I watched the same game. Graham did a great job of being aggressive and getting to the line like Frank would have. I think he was one of a few players that actually tried last night.
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@BigBad What relevance does your statement have to the context of point I was making with that statement? Where in my post did I even attempt to make a comparison between Malik Newman and Frank Mason?
My was about comparing KU’s bench talent this year to KU’s bench talent during the 2012 season. It was comparing the talent level of Marcus Garrett and now Malik Newman to Connor Teahan, comparing Mitch Lightfoot and Sam Cunliffe to Kevin Young and Justin Wesley.
Maybe you should read the entirety of the statement for the context instead of reading something and making an u related point about a statement out of context.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@BigBad What relevance does your statement have to the context of point I was making with that statement? Where in my post did I even attempt to make a comparison between Malik Newman and Frank Mason?
You were mentioning high school ratings. I was showing that they are not always accurate.
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NEWS FLASH: Bill Self on Hawk Talk said he thinks the Billy Preston situation is “really close” to being resolved. Groundhog Day.
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Hit 3 or 4 more threes last night at pretty much any point of the game and it’s a win. This is just the team a lot of people have been wanting for the past 5 years. Fools gold/Iowa state kind of team.
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This team is far and away the worst team Self has ever had interms of athletes and toughness. The 2012 team would stomp the daylights outta this bunch, Tyshawn played at an all American level the last half of the year, Trob was an all American, EJ was great as a shooting guard, releford has better defense than any on this team, Withey actually protected the rim, Kevin Young was light years ahead of where Mitch currently is and Teahan averaged more points that Garrett, Mitch and Sam currently do.
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@DanR Ifs and buts… Can’t speak for others, but the point that I have made over that time frame (and I think a few others, as well) was the HCBS could be inflexible and and insisted on running the high-low even when teams were scheming against it. That is, giving good shooters the green light to shoot open, uncontested 3s when the defense was clogging the paint, rather than trying to force entry passes into the post often leading to TOs. He has adapted, but that doesn’t mean going completely the other direction. Now, if opponents are crowding the 3 pt line, then we need to get it into Doke or our perimeter guys need to go strong to the rim or drop it off to someone slashing to the bucket from the weak side.
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What is truly “fool’s gold” is being a one trick pony. When your trick goes wrong, you have nothing else. We may be witnessing that right now. And we saw the peak (Texas) and the valley (TT). But as Bill Self said after the game, a team can’t rely on shooting.
In fact, Bill Self seemed to echo a bit of what I have said for a long time about not blaming shooting for losses - “The thing about it is with ball, it shouldn’t matter what we shoot, especially at home,” Self said. “The worse you shoot it the more you grind. Do you give up in a football game when your quarterback’s having a bad game or he gets hurt? Well, you’ve got to rush it then. We didn’t do that. That’s what concerns me. It’s not as much, ‘Well, you’re 0 for 12 or you did this or that.’ I hate to say this: It’s going to be hard to win if we don’t shoot better offensively, but that’s not what turns coaches on. So you missed the shot. Big deal. They’re 6 of 24 from 3 and they found some ways to score when the ball didn’t go in the hole too." He also said, ”When you have to make shots to play good because you’re a pretty team and you’re a finesse team, that’s a formula for getting beat when you play tough teams, and that’s certainly what happened tonight.”
Further, we had the discussion about Mitch Lightfoot before the TT game. The Lightfoot fan club was pronouncing him a bonafide rotation member and a player that will have significant role, even if DeSousa/Preston come on board, supposedly based on Self’s words. I wonder, though, in a game where we needed depth, Lightfoot played 8 minutes. That’s all. One rebound. Self said, not exactly supporting the idea that Mitch is a guy he can turn to - “When you’re playing with little depth and guys don’t play well or perform, execute or whatever and you’ve got nowhere to put ’em, then because there’s really not depth to put back in the game it makes it hard …" No depth. Mitch was surely not tired, or worn out. But no.
In fact, he could have gone “conventional” with Doke and Mitch to try to shake things up. He didn’t. Why? If Mitch is the wonderful four, why not go conventional? Hmmm.
This isn’t definitive. It’s just real evidence.
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@HighEliteMajor He isn’t going to go with both Dok and Mitch at the same time when they are the only post players he has. So last night has nothing to do with whether he will play Mitch in a 3-2 offense after (if) another big shows up.
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@mayjay So, with the game on the line, last five minutes, he wouldn’t go with what he thinks will win? Because he only has two post players? That makes no sense. There’s no logic to your statement. Mitch was not in foul trouble. Even if he was, the game was in the balance. Heck, he played 5 guards which we haven’t seen. The reason he didn’t go with Doke and Mitch is because although playing conventionally might have created the close to the basket chances, Mitch is the worst option to have in the game.
And of course he’ll play Mitch a bit in the 3/2. Maybe those entire 8 minutes he played last night.
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We don’t have a high to go with the low, so there’s not a back up option on offense. Like I said: hit 3 or 4 more three pointers (still way below average) and no one is talking about coaching strategy. Could have been beaten at every other aspect of the game as we were and it would still have been a win.
I’m not throwing in the towel on this season yet. I hope the Preston situation gets resolved one way or another soon and Self can figure out a defensive strategy that fits this team.
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A natural scoring post would sure help when the outside shots aren’t falling.
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Great interview with DMan on ESPN and Deacons win over the Cuse. I thought he was addressing the current KU team’s woes. But the difference is the Deacs won.
What a great interview for KU to hear what another NC player does to win, “lock in on defense,” “force contested shots,” and “REBOUND” for cryin’ out loud, REBOUND.
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This team can’t stop anyone on defense. They cannot impose their will.
On the offensive side, I saw us do the weave once, and then Devonte Graham lost the ball because he wasn’t paying attention. Good teams don’t just run the weave or any play won autopilot. TT saw what we were doing, saw our body language (here we go again, just gonna move the ball here, then do it here, doh I lost the ball), and that’s right, lost the ball. Totally destroyed our run and the game wasn’t the same after that.
Another poor play was the inbounds pass that was stolen.
Mental toughness starts and ends with concentration. You have to play on edge, keeping your opponent on his heels. But it’s also a mindset that affects how you improve in the offseason even, and our players haven’t changed enough. Vick, Svi, Graham. They are mostly the same players they were when they got here. We aren’t seeing the same sort of trajectory like we did with Frank Mason, who had the mental toughness to do what was necessary season after season to elevate himself to NPOY.
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No you’re right. It was just to late when he started to get into the paint. The game was pretty much decided when he decided to go paint warrior. I still have hope for Graham. Love the kid.
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@truehawk93 no offense, I love Danny, 8-6. We did beat Cuse too.
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Just makes me appreciate Frank (and Josh to a lesser extent) even more. The team lacks grit and toughness. Mason had about an entire teams worth of grit and toughness.
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@DoubleDD It’s all Devonte’s fault…seriously? His 27 points weren’t enough - Frank would’ve had 60. His 40 minutes weren’t enough - he must not be trying. It was Devonte that made Vick go 1 for 9. It was Devonte that made Svi go 0 for 6 from the 3. The one guy that came to play is the guy you blame for the loss. Astonishing.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich I wonder how many drives Frank would’ve had if he had Doke missing back screens the whole game instead of Landen Lucas. Landen made it very easy for our players to drive to the basket. No doubt Frank is great at driving to the basket, but those drives worked because he had an experienced big down low creating the driving lane. That way, all Frank had to do was beat one man instead of 2 or 3. We don’t have that this year.
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@KUSTEVE @BeddieKU23 It seems to me in recollection that we do not have any passing to the high post. That used to be an integral part of our offense, allowing for guard screens and those pick and rolls to the basket. The weave, when used, goes nowhere and fizzles into nothing more than a waste of time. The perimeter is only looking to pass to Doke when he might have a scoring opportunity down low. No passing through the high post who could find an open shooter when the D collapses to him, or feed someone driving either down the lane or on the baseline. This leaves us literally two dimensional–with little ability to mix up our offense and confuse the D with all those choices out of the weave.
Of course, as I said, this is just my recollection. But if I am correct, I do think a bigger and stronger guy than ML coming in to spell Doke, or to play with him, will open up lots more passing opportunities from the high post. ML is not strong or long enough to do it in a 4/1, and Doke still does not seem to have developed any game beyond 6 feet (except for those touch fouls at the women’s 3 pt line).
Edit: We tried LV there one or two games but only to bust the zone.
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This team is obviously struggling and as a fan it is frustrating to watch us get out hustled, etc. That said, there is a ton of season left. The 2006 team got of to a god awful start to the season and turned it around and ended up having a hell of a year (until the Bradley game). I personally feel that we are getting way ahead of ourselves to even consider where this team ranks vs other Bill Self squads. We are two games into the Big 12. One great win. One bad loss. We are the Super Bowl for essentially every team we play game in game out. We are going to take our losses and we are going to have some great wins. I propehecize a thread entitled “Is this Bill Self’s Best Coaching Job?” sometime between now and the end of Big 12 play.
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@KUSTEVE I loved how aggressive he was driving to the hoop. Where has that been all year?
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I strongly dislike the weave offense. I’ve noticed that defenses that scout us well have largely ignored us when we use it. We dilly dally east and west to create seems and misdirection. Your post was spot on really. I think I’ve mentioned this each game chat that we don’t run enough ball screen action. When shots go down its not as noticeable but when we struggle to score I notice how easily defenses are predicting our sets.
The hope would be that a De Sousa or Preston who both have capable jump shots and skills to roam that high post could create more diversity in our offense. Preston would be a perfect fit to run ball screen and pops or ball screen and dives to the hoops with. He has a skilled 8-12 feet shot in his arsenal
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@BeddieKU23 “I strongly dislike the weave offense.”
Really? I LOVE it.
When I’m watching the Harlem Globetrotters.
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About lost my coffee on that one
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I’ll only jump ship if it’s in the tropics. Then I can swim to shore and miss this northern winter.
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It’s not so much blame but more like laying at his feet. Many of good to great players put up nice scoring numbers Yet not really help the team. Take for instance if a said player hits a three point shot then goes down on the defense side of the court and gives up a three? Then what did you really gain? Scoring numbers can be very misleading. Take Doka for instance he has this gaudy number of dunks. His Scoring numbers and number dunks would say feed Doka in the paint. Yet in reality He does need more work on finishing plays at the rim.
There is no doubt that Graham can feel up the basket. Yet this teams needs more than that They need what FM brought last year. A toughness not to wilt when things aren’t going right. They need that leadership that says calm down boys, We got this.
Hey I’m just grasping like everybody else. However, I just can’t remember seeing a KU looking so helpless like this one.
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I think we still get in the Sweet 16 somehow. This team is still better than the Wiggins squad. I don’t think we’d lose to Stanford. ASU and TT are Elite 8 capable teams. We’ve probably improved since losing to Washington.
But they need to focus. Say no to other things, yes to sleep.
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BeddieKU23 said:
I strongly dislike the weave offense. I’ve noticed that defenses that scout us well have largely ignored us when we use it. We dilly dally east and west to create seems and misdirection. Your post was spot on really. I think I’ve mentioned this each game chat that we don’t run enough ball screen action.
Totally agree. I’m not a coach but if we are going with 4 3 point shooters then why not play pick and roll with the 4. Hard hedging becomes a must and it will create easier diving lanes. The NBA with all its 4 and sometimes 5 out has never left out the pick and roll and its always more dangerous when both players can shoot the 3.
It would be much harder to defend then the weave.
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betterfireE said:
I think we still get in the Sweet 16 somehow. This team is still better than the Wiggins squad. I don’t think we’d lose to Stanford. ASU and TT are Elite 8 capable teams. We’ve probably improved since losing to Washington.
But they need to focus. Say no to other things, yes to sleep.
Hear ya - -but that ASU loss just took a hit on us - -as they in turn around and lose to a Colorado team last night that had 6 losses - -that’s not good for us.
Stanford win might look a little better for us as they beat UCLA last night - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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RockkChalkk said:
Key words, “with effort.” They aren’t putting forth the effort needed to win. Being out rebounded, out hustled, can’t defend, those are effort issues. Nobody who watched that game last night said “wow, KU really played hard but the other team just made so many tough shots, nothing they could have done.”
Bingo!
Is it possible that somehow we have our players brainwashed into thinking “conserve energy” all the time? It sure looks like it.
Let’s not forget this is more than just saving energy to get through a game. It’s also about preventing injuries from happening, or getting worse once they happen. Doke is the perfect example. It is clear he is playing through some pain. It would be great if we could rest him more, just to heal quicker.
This last game was pathetic. Super soft play. But we’ve been playing soft all season. Our numbers point that out… shooting the LEAST FTs of any other team in the Big 12! That is an obvious stat that says it all!
Or maybe… this will all work out because we have no place to go but up! Maybe this year will play out where we go on a big winning streak at the end! We usually peak out before March. Maybe this year we won’t!
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@drgnslayr , your “pathetic” comment made me think. KU has players with athleticism, but playing in a pathetic manner. Hhmmm… “patheticism”?
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Gorilla72 said:
@drgnslayr , your “pathetic” comment made me think. KU has players with athleticism, but playing in a pathetic manner. Hhmmm… “patheticism”?
Athpatheticism
