Self's Worst Team at KU
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RockkChalkk said:
Key words, “with effort.” They aren’t putting forth the effort needed to win. Being out rebounded, out hustled, can’t defend, those are effort issues. Nobody who watched that game last night said “wow, KU really played hard but the other team just made so many tough shots, nothing they could have done.”
And Self has to get to them mentally. We are too thin to go the ‘kill them at practice’ route.
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@RockkChalkk I wasn’t able to watch the game…but I didn’t say those things either. And I hedged my bet with effort, because I know the end of the world is near. Lol.
@no_one_in_specific KU lost and is in serious jeopardy of losing the winning game streak, time to watch the rats drown as they jump ship only to try to swim back aboard later.
I am serious about supporting the team though, they damn sure need it with the butt kickings they have coming.
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@dylans that “lose with effort” part was the killer for me.
And a team, supposedly of KU’s caliber should never lose at home.
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Blown said:
Replace Andrea Hudy? You must be joking.
I SAID IF this were the case - - because if they are wore out already - -that is conditioning, who conditions these athletes? - -If you actually read the statement and comprehended the statement you would of seen I said it was a weak idea - -feeble just a quick of the top of the head
HELL NO I don’t want to replace Hudy , mercy - well unless it was the case - which there is no way in hell so a mute point. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BShark Even though our shooting % was similar to theirs…they seemed to make it harder for us to get good shots than they did…hence your comment on defense. They got easier shots than we did, for sure. Rebounding and points off turnovers ultimately did us in.
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@dylans Jump ship… No way, I’m a KU football fan, this team is bad maybe that means they need our support more. I’m tired of the fans bashing our guys on twitter, its one thing to do it here but good golly, we are better fans than this.
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Edit.
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@kjayhawks darn straight!
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There’s nothing to bash really. Just accept the fact that we’re less talented and much thinner than were used to being. Some of the fight I feel like has also gone out of this team. Can’t really know what’s going on with them psychologically. Maybe they’re tired of hearing about how they need some kid that will likely never suit up in order to be great. It’s been a distraction from day one. Let’s call a spade a spade. The entire team would be in a better place right now if BP was never here. And he can go ahead and move on for all I care. Play with who we have. Work to improve with what who is eligible and wants to work hard. The end
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I would add that the De Sousa situation has also compounded the distraction.
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Lack of depth is starting to really cause problems. We can’t consistently score inside. Azuibuke isn’t healthy, but we simply don’t have other options without some of the other guys getting cleared.
At this point, I would actually sit Azuibuke and let him get healthy. We are going to struggle anyway, so you might as well ride Mitch and the walk-ons for a bit, get Udoka’s back ready for March knowing that you’re limited if you don’t have Preston and De Sousa anyway, but if you suddenly have Azuibuke, Preston and De Sousa come tournament time, it doesn’t matter where you’re seeded because that’s top seed talent. No sense in burning everyone out right now. Try to stay in the hunt, maybe sacrifice the streak, but put yourself in a position where if people are healthy/eligible in March, Self ends up going all in with a full house of Kings and Aces when it really counts.
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The polarization of these board comments from a win to a loss is always intriguing to me.
Granted… A loss at AH is a bad loss. We were exposed and out-toughed by an experienced team. Tech was prepared, ready and dudes that haven’t hit many shots all season came out of the gates smoking hot. However, let’s not confuse this Tech team with Tech teams of years’ past. They started five seniors who have come through Allen before. They knew what to expect and their coaching staff had a solid game plan in place. The composure they showed each time we ran at them was impressive. We obviously helped them out a bit with some ill-timed turnovers, but they hit some huge shots in the toughest environment in College Basketball.Despite the eye test from last night, I don’t think this is Self’s Worst Team at KU. I believe there are some metrics that prove otherwise as our friend Jesse Newell pointed out. I do think this is obviously a very different team than we’ve seen at KU during Self’s tenure and it clearly has some flaws in its current state. We’ve all diagnosed and know the limitations and challenges that face this group right now. We’re going to take some lumps, but everyone else will take lumps too.
To me, the most interesting thing will be to see how they respond Saturday in Ft. Worth. When I looked down the schedule, I figured we’d be 2-1 to start the conference run. I just assumed the loss would be taken to TCU on the road. A win down there will go a long way in righting the ship. It’s ridiculous and way too early to be jumping ship or declaring this season a bust given how evenly matched the conference stands from top-to-bottom.
At the end of the year, I’ll be happy to revisit the “what is Bill Self’s worst KU team” debate, but its waaaaaaaayyyyyyy too premature for that right now.
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Lot’s of people jumping off the bandwagon today. It’s a loss…live and learn. The team will prevail. The streak will end sometime. Maybe this year…maybe not. One year, the NCAA will proceed without a mention of the Jayhawks and they will host an NIT game. It will happen. Maybe this year…maybe not. Will this KU team shoot 12 3’s in the second half of a close game and miss all 12 again. Highly doubtful.
There is a silver lining in the loss. The team learned to drive the ball and proved they can score. The previous 13 games had the same 3 options on offense every time:
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weave, drive, dish back out for a 3…shoot, make/miss get back on D
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drive left, pass to top of key, fake right, pass left…drop down low to Doke…dunk, or hook shot…get back on D.
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Top of key…come in from corner for lob, or drive and throw up for lob.
Last night proved they can drive. Last night proved they will drive. This drive to the basket will continue moving forward. When the 3 is falling…of course make it rain. When it’s not, the dribble drive will allow for defensive breakdowns for offensive boards. There is hope. I believe it. I believe we will get Preston back for the home game against K-State. I believe we will go 13-5 in the Big 12. I believe we will beat Texas A&M. I believe we will make it to the second weekend of the tournament as a 4 see and will battle Duke on March 22 in Atlanta. This may be the worst team Bill Self has had in his KU era…but it’s still pretty good.
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bmensch1 said:
Last night proved they can drive. Last night proved they will drive. This drive to the basket will continue moving forward.
Last night and also the previous 2 loses were to teams who chose to defend the 3 and give up the drive. It exposed Vick the most as he and Malik really cant breakdown guys in the half court. On top of that we dont have guys that will finish off alley opps like Lucas and Jackson did last year when Frank and DG got stopped on a drive. I think we had one of those last night with Doke. Vick and Svi could but they both along with Devonte stay outside for a kick out whenever the others penetrate. Teams going forward are going to defend us this way and an adjustment needs to be made.
3 loses and our 3 pointers 6-26 TT 5-20 Washington 14-38 ASU
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Live by the 3, die by the 3, i.e. fool’s gold.
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@BShark I remember several weeks ago when Coach Self made the statement that our scout team (Billy, the Lawsons, Cunliffe, and Moore) were consistently scoring 25+ points on our starters during a 10 minute running clock in practice. That is the day I started getting worried. 1. Either the scout team is extremely good, or 2. our starters are just average. Since that time, it appears that the answer is number 2. Giving up 95 and 85 points on our home floor puts an exclamation point on that answer. Help needs to arrive soon or this will be Self’s worst team.
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@bmensch1 Alas, I’m not nearly as sanguine about it as you are. Yes, DG eschewed (or had taken away) 3 pointers for the most part and was reasonably effective driving and getting to the FT line - shooting 13 (and making all of them). The other perimeter players - not so much. Vick, Svi, Newman, Garrett and Cunliffe combined for 94 minutes playing time and managed just 3!!! FT attempts (only making one). As quick as refs are with whistles these days, that’s hard to do. Our guys seem allergic to driving to create contact and try to draw fouls (which Frank was a master at)…
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I don’t know if this is Self’s worst team during his tenure - still have half the season to determine that - and I don’t think it is his least talented (by a fair amount) - but I would argue that it is the least Self-like team during his tenure - in terms of style, defensive prowess and general grit and toughness - esp. perplexing given the time that most have spent in his system…
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Yes, this appears to be the worst team Self has had. I would say the 2012 Final Four team was Self’s least talented team and prior to this year, I would say that Wiggins/Embiid team was the worst team because of how inexperienced that group was.
I would put this team near the bottom of list as far as talent goes and I think this may end up being the worst team Self has had at KU.
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This post is deleted!
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
I would say the 2012 Final Four team was Self’s least talented team and prior to this year, I would say that Wiggins/Embiid team was the worst team because of how inexperienced that group was.
2012 guys who spent time on an NBA roster:
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T-Rob 7 years
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Withey 5 years
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Tyshawn - 2 half years
Do you think this team surpasses that? I dont.
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This is a good article from Jesse Newell. He has made several valid points about this team:
The reality is this: These Jayhawks have been put in a tough spot because of a roster crunch. Mental toughness can only help KU so much.
The Jayhawks are stuck in a vicious cycle. With only two big men, they have to play small. And if they play small, they have to play with constant energy to be effective defensively. And to have constant energy, they need a breather every once in a while.
And because there are only two big men … there’s no break. Perhaps it’s no surprise that the almost-expected Allen Fieldhouse run — the one so many other Jayhawks teams have made during their 13-year conference streak — never materialized in the second half.
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@AsadZ Perhaps I’m an outlier with this view, but I think the short bench argument is, to some extent, both and excuse and a choice. Yes, Preston’s unavailability means less depth up front. But, lest we forget, we got beat by a team in the E-8 that went on to win the title that had just one real big - Villanova, with Ochefu. They basically played with 7-1/2 guys. The half was a 6-8, 225 lb guy that would spell Ocehefu, but he was just a body - didn’t score and didn’t rebound much. Would argue that Mitch has much more talent than he did. And, it a choice not to play Cunliffe more. It’s not like he hasn’t already demonstrated that he is a capable D-1 player. Is the drop-off from to Cunliffe from Newman, Garrett and Svi THAT much? Even if there is a significant drop-off, that’s usually true with bench players - the trade-off of giving better players a breather is that they are more effective when they are in there.
I guess my view is that depth isn’t really the primary issue - it’s that the players we do have just aren’t constituted the way that we have come to expect with Jayhawks under Self.
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@DCHawker I see what you are saying although Self is playing 4-1 with 7 man rotation, small ball, and he has been preaching the team to play fast. I believe these extended minutes, high tempo flavor has taken a big toll on the guards and with Dok’s back issues the problem is getting worse.
Your post does let me think about another issue? Hudy is one of the best in business but looking at the number of injuries we face every year are we over training in the offseason and during the season, and is it taking a further toll on our players when rotation is so thin? Should KU be evaluating correlation of injuries to its conditioning program to make necessary adjustments?
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@BigBad Yes, I absolutely believe this team has more talent than the 2012 team. Having more talent does not mean they are a better team than 2012 though.
Comparing talent levels is more than looking at the top of the rosters. You have look at the roster from the top to the bottom of the roster. The top of the 2012 roster may have had more talent than this team, but the bottom of this roster is far more talented than 2012.
Marcus Garrett was a highly sought after player, now with Newman coming off the bench, he was recruited by everyone out of high school. Mitch Lightfoot was a well regarded recruit coming of high school. And Sam Cunliffe was a 4 star recruit out of high school as well.
In 2012, KU had a walk on as the first guy off the bench (Connor Teahan) and a guy who had been out of basketball for a year (Kevin Young) along with a transfer from Lamar (Justin Wesley)
Tell me which bench sounds better to you? Newman/Garrett, Mitch Lightfoot, and Sam Cunliffe or Kevin Young, Connor Teahan, and Justin Wesley?
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@AsadZ Fair observation on the first point, although that begs the question as to whether is makes sense to play up tempo if you don’t have the bodies to sustain it? And, wouldn’t that argue for more playing time for Cunliffe? And, we got whipped by an ASU team at AFH that is just as perimeter oriented and short-benched as we are - their guards consistently blew by ours. And, their top 2 scorers average 35mpg.
And, interesting question. Everyone is a big fan of Hudy, but it does seem that we that we suffer from more minor+ injuries than many other teams. Really am not competent to judge where there is causation to conditioning program.
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DCHawker said:
@AsadZ Perhaps I’m an outlier with this view, but I think the short bench argument is, to some extent, both and excuse and a choice. Yes, Preston’s unavailability means less depth up front. But, lest we forget, we got beat by a team in the E-8 that went on to win the title that had just one real big - Villanova, with Ochefu. They basically played with 7-1/2 guys. The half was a 6-8, 225 lb guy that would spell Ocehefu, but he was just a body - didn’t score and didn’t rebound much. Would argue that Mitch has much more talent than he did. And, it a choice not to play Cunliffe more. It’s not like he hasn’t already demonstrated that he is a capable D-1 player. Is the drop-off from to Cunliffe from Newman, Garrett and Svi THAT much? Even if there is a significant drop-off, that’s usually true with bench players - the trade-off of giving better players a breather is that they are more effective when they are in there.
I guess my view is that depth isn’t really the primary issue - it’s that the players we do have just aren’t constituted the way that we have come to expect with Jayhawks under Self.
Comparing sr ocehefu w/18 yr old player Doke as far as playing time, hardly seems fair. Get back at me
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
Marcus Garrett was a highly sought after player, now with Newman coming off the bench, he was recruited by everyone out of high school. Mitch Lightfoot was a well regarded recruit coming of high school. And Sam Cunliffe was a 4 star recruit out of high school as well.
So you are using High School ratings as a barometer for talent?? Mason was a 3 star and Newman was a 5…
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@BShark BUT KENPOM STILL SAYS WE ARE #7!!!
HOW DARE YOU SAY WE SUCK WHEN THE COMPUTER MODELS STILL LOVE US AND THE BIG XII !!!
Lol this team is not fun to watch. At all. It is like watching 4 Junior year Tyshawn’s play together at once.
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We should evaluate players for their contributions at KU not their rankings out of HS or their NBA careers. TRob was runner up for POY to the Unibrow and his career in the NBA consisted of bouncing from one team top the next and now he is playing overseas, Withey who was a great rebounder and the best shot blocker in recent history has mostly sat on the bench and the player who is arguably the best player in recent memory, consensus POY Frank Mason, was picked in the second round. None of these players have matched in the NBA what they achieved at KU. The same can be said when you compare HS ranking against contribution at KU.
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I’m going to rile a few feathers here? Yet I place the blame at Graham’s feet. Don’t get me wrong there is enough blame to go around. Poor Defense, Poor rebounding, Lack of depth in the paint, and yes some poor Coaching.
Yet I get this feeling if BIFM were playing last night. KU doesn’t lose. I can see it right now. OK boys you want to extend the defense to stop our shooters then it’s going to be a war in the paint. Mister Mason would’ve strapped it on and went to the paint with a fury. Time and time again he would’ve gone into the paint. This would have affected the team play and mind sight. The other KU players too would have started going into the paint as they would be feeding of their leader.
This leader of toughness is what is truly lacking. KU hasn’t always had that big time scorer to carry the team, but they’ve always had that kid would get damn mean and turn the paint into a war zone.
Help maybe on the way. From what I Hear Desousa is a junk yard dog.
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The way I see it, KU has two problems it needs to address.
First, KU is right know a one trick pony and what Coach Self said once upon a time about 3 point shooting being fool’s gold, that many made fun at the time, has now become reality. The team has become so dependent on the 3 that when it is not working, even at friendly AFH, KU has nothing else to use. Live by the 3 and die by the 3 is particularly applicable for this team. KU tried to penetrate but it was largely ineffective and too little and too late.
Next, the best rebounder is Garret and he is not playing much. As much as I like Doke, he still has way too much to learn and he has really not come even close to understanding what position and boxing out are. On defense, when he should be boxing out opposing players he is the one being boxed out instead and thus his rebounding is not close to what it should be. Last night Tech. players roamed the paint with impunity and out rebounded KU 44-29 and 18-8 on offensive rebounds. On offense, Doke does not know how to get himself in position to receive the pass inside like Lucas did; last night he should have absolutely dominated inside and yet he had only 11 points and 7 rebounds when he should have had a 20-15 game against a shorter Tech. team. At least, this is the area where De Sousa and Preston can likely provide immediate help, provide they ever play this season. De Sousa will likely playing soon but he would be the lesser of the contributors where Preston could provide immediate help but the chances of him playing any time soon seem more remote every day.
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@DoubleDD I don’t think you and I watched the same game. Graham did a great job of being aggressive and getting to the line like Frank would have. I think he was one of a few players that actually tried last night.
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@BigBad What relevance does your statement have to the context of point I was making with that statement? Where in my post did I even attempt to make a comparison between Malik Newman and Frank Mason?
My was about comparing KU’s bench talent this year to KU’s bench talent during the 2012 season. It was comparing the talent level of Marcus Garrett and now Malik Newman to Connor Teahan, comparing Mitch Lightfoot and Sam Cunliffe to Kevin Young and Justin Wesley.
Maybe you should read the entirety of the statement for the context instead of reading something and making an u related point about a statement out of context.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@BigBad What relevance does your statement have to the context of point I was making with that statement? Where in my post did I even attempt to make a comparison between Malik Newman and Frank Mason?
You were mentioning high school ratings. I was showing that they are not always accurate.
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NEWS FLASH: Bill Self on Hawk Talk said he thinks the Billy Preston situation is “really close” to being resolved. Groundhog Day.
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Hit 3 or 4 more threes last night at pretty much any point of the game and it’s a win. This is just the team a lot of people have been wanting for the past 5 years. Fools gold/Iowa state kind of team.
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This team is far and away the worst team Self has ever had interms of athletes and toughness. The 2012 team would stomp the daylights outta this bunch, Tyshawn played at an all American level the last half of the year, Trob was an all American, EJ was great as a shooting guard, releford has better defense than any on this team, Withey actually protected the rim, Kevin Young was light years ahead of where Mitch currently is and Teahan averaged more points that Garrett, Mitch and Sam currently do.
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@DanR Ifs and buts… Can’t speak for others, but the point that I have made over that time frame (and I think a few others, as well) was the HCBS could be inflexible and and insisted on running the high-low even when teams were scheming against it. That is, giving good shooters the green light to shoot open, uncontested 3s when the defense was clogging the paint, rather than trying to force entry passes into the post often leading to TOs. He has adapted, but that doesn’t mean going completely the other direction. Now, if opponents are crowding the 3 pt line, then we need to get it into Doke or our perimeter guys need to go strong to the rim or drop it off to someone slashing to the bucket from the weak side.
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What is truly “fool’s gold” is being a one trick pony. When your trick goes wrong, you have nothing else. We may be witnessing that right now. And we saw the peak (Texas) and the valley (TT). But as Bill Self said after the game, a team can’t rely on shooting.
In fact, Bill Self seemed to echo a bit of what I have said for a long time about not blaming shooting for losses - “The thing about it is with ball, it shouldn’t matter what we shoot, especially at home,” Self said. “The worse you shoot it the more you grind. Do you give up in a football game when your quarterback’s having a bad game or he gets hurt? Well, you’ve got to rush it then. We didn’t do that. That’s what concerns me. It’s not as much, ‘Well, you’re 0 for 12 or you did this or that.’ I hate to say this: It’s going to be hard to win if we don’t shoot better offensively, but that’s not what turns coaches on. So you missed the shot. Big deal. They’re 6 of 24 from 3 and they found some ways to score when the ball didn’t go in the hole too." He also said, ”When you have to make shots to play good because you’re a pretty team and you’re a finesse team, that’s a formula for getting beat when you play tough teams, and that’s certainly what happened tonight.”
Further, we had the discussion about Mitch Lightfoot before the TT game. The Lightfoot fan club was pronouncing him a bonafide rotation member and a player that will have significant role, even if DeSousa/Preston come on board, supposedly based on Self’s words. I wonder, though, in a game where we needed depth, Lightfoot played 8 minutes. That’s all. One rebound. Self said, not exactly supporting the idea that Mitch is a guy he can turn to - “When you’re playing with little depth and guys don’t play well or perform, execute or whatever and you’ve got nowhere to put ’em, then because there’s really not depth to put back in the game it makes it hard …" No depth. Mitch was surely not tired, or worn out. But no.
In fact, he could have gone “conventional” with Doke and Mitch to try to shake things up. He didn’t. Why? If Mitch is the wonderful four, why not go conventional? Hmmm.
This isn’t definitive. It’s just real evidence.
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@HighEliteMajor He isn’t going to go with both Dok and Mitch at the same time when they are the only post players he has. So last night has nothing to do with whether he will play Mitch in a 3-2 offense after (if) another big shows up.
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@mayjay So, with the game on the line, last five minutes, he wouldn’t go with what he thinks will win? Because he only has two post players? That makes no sense. There’s no logic to your statement. Mitch was not in foul trouble. Even if he was, the game was in the balance. Heck, he played 5 guards which we haven’t seen. The reason he didn’t go with Doke and Mitch is because although playing conventionally might have created the close to the basket chances, Mitch is the worst option to have in the game.
And of course he’ll play Mitch a bit in the 3/2. Maybe those entire 8 minutes he played last night.
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We don’t have a high to go with the low, so there’s not a back up option on offense. Like I said: hit 3 or 4 more three pointers (still way below average) and no one is talking about coaching strategy. Could have been beaten at every other aspect of the game as we were and it would still have been a win.
I’m not throwing in the towel on this season yet. I hope the Preston situation gets resolved one way or another soon and Self can figure out a defensive strategy that fits this team.
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A natural scoring post would sure help when the outside shots aren’t falling.
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Great interview with DMan on ESPN and Deacons win over the Cuse. I thought he was addressing the current KU team’s woes. But the difference is the Deacs won.
What a great interview for KU to hear what another NC player does to win, “lock in on defense,” “force contested shots,” and “REBOUND” for cryin’ out loud, REBOUND.
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This team can’t stop anyone on defense. They cannot impose their will.
On the offensive side, I saw us do the weave once, and then Devonte Graham lost the ball because he wasn’t paying attention. Good teams don’t just run the weave or any play won autopilot. TT saw what we were doing, saw our body language (here we go again, just gonna move the ball here, then do it here, doh I lost the ball), and that’s right, lost the ball. Totally destroyed our run and the game wasn’t the same after that.
Another poor play was the inbounds pass that was stolen.
Mental toughness starts and ends with concentration. You have to play on edge, keeping your opponent on his heels. But it’s also a mindset that affects how you improve in the offseason even, and our players haven’t changed enough. Vick, Svi, Graham. They are mostly the same players they were when they got here. We aren’t seeing the same sort of trajectory like we did with Frank Mason, who had the mental toughness to do what was necessary season after season to elevate himself to NPOY.
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No you’re right. It was just to late when he started to get into the paint. The game was pretty much decided when he decided to go paint warrior. I still have hope for Graham. Love the kid.
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@truehawk93 no offense, I love Danny, 8-6. We did beat Cuse too.
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Just makes me appreciate Frank (and Josh to a lesser extent) even more. The team lacks grit and toughness. Mason had about an entire teams worth of grit and toughness.
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@DoubleDD It’s all Devonte’s fault…seriously? His 27 points weren’t enough - Frank would’ve had 60. His 40 minutes weren’t enough - he must not be trying. It was Devonte that made Vick go 1 for 9. It was Devonte that made Svi go 0 for 6 from the 3. The one guy that came to play is the guy you blame for the loss. Astonishing.
