Josh to Celtics #1?
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ParisHawk said:
That is a BS question. Picture the scenario, for crying out loud: alone in your car with a gang kicking away at it and shouting at you. You don’t think that’s menacing?
This is an appeal to emotion and doesn’t seem rational. Josh and his friends aren’t a gang. I don’t think this was a premeditated effort to terrorize Calvert. I cannot in a million years imagine myself having done something to invoke the wrath of JJ and friends vandalizing my car so this doesn’t hold water with me. If you are asking me to replace in my mind Josh and friends with another group of random people, well that troubles me. Who are the other people and what are their motives?
You use the word “know” to imply that I need to prove she was traumatized. Prove she wasn’t.
This is shifting the burden of proof. Josh was the accused. Innocent until proven guilty.
This reminds me of the page from an Elmore Leonard novel: one guy says “Did you know once every 7 seconds a woman gets beaten in the US?” and the other replies “Hard to believe so many women get out of line.”
Also an appeal to emotion. He didn’t beat her, as you said. He trashed her stuff and told her a few things. Probably all drunk. Definitely all regrettable actions. But this isn’t Elmore Leonard’s world. If anything she is getting the benefit of the doubt more than Josh.
Similarly, while Josh is an old freshman, he’s still a college freshman. Let’s not assume that his decisions now are indicative of his adult character.
I wasn’t talking about his character, I was talking about that one action. Not normal, not a “mistake”.
The reason I bring up his character is that much of our understanding of the facts is cemented together with speculation. And if we are going to speculate, his character appears to be something we are familiar with to some degree.
Let’s look at this through the lens of the current times.
That sentence scares me. More relativism - and worse, graver conflict among everyone concerning acceptable behavior. We who have a common bond here can’t even agree that what JJ did was wrong, and wrong enough to be brought before a judge?
So first, we can agree what he did was wrong. Probably alcohol involved. Dumb. Rash. Totally agree. But in terms of relativism, I would argue that since the dawn of human thought, societally acceptable behavior has been in flux. To assume that one generations interpretation is the correct one would not only be to deny future interpretation but also all those that came before it, would it not? Is it so bad to possibly consider the female participant in this scenario to be simply person A and the male accused of vandalism to be person B?
You didn’t answer my question: was JJ’s treatment by the court too harsh for you?
I don’t think so. He’s fine. I’m sure it put a scare into him with lesser stakes as HEM said. Maybe a good thing.
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If Josh had done that to my sister I would have got some buddies together and kicked his ass…with baseball bats.
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Jackson was acknowledged his adjustment to the NBA will go beyond X’s and O’s. “I have been taking an anger management course,” Jackson said. “I’m just wrapping it up right now. It’s just something that I had to do. I learned from the mistake I made. I’m making it through it.” What did he learn? “One of the biggest things I got out of it was just to worry about the things I can control and not to worry about the things that I can’t,” Jackson said. “It sounds so simple. But I went home and thought about that a lot and it made huge amount of sense to me. There’s a lot of things in this world that we cannot control. But yet it frustrates you. We can’t worry about them too much.”
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Me thinks Boston likes Tatum better. I’m afraid we are about to watch JJ slip to pick 6. And get drafted by anyone willing to trade up with Orlando to get him. Phoenix is in position to pull of the biggest coup and get both JJ and Isaac if they play their cards exactly right. Hold D’Aaron Fox out for bidding. Forcing the Kings to trade with their 5th and 10th picks. Suns draft either JJ or Isaac. Whoever they think Orlando likes better. Then trade that 10th pick, 32nd pick and either Ulis or Knight for the 6th pick and get the other one. Would make Phoenix scary, young and as athletic as any other team. Almost hope this comes true. Phoneix would be a contender in 2 years.
- PG - Bledsoe
- SG - Booker
- SF - JJ
- PF - TJ Warren
- C - Len
Bench:
- Isaac
- Chriss
- Knight
- Chandler
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ESPN saying Bulls and Knicks are after JJ.
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On ESPN radio yesterday (I can’t remember whom) they said Josh was the most scrutinized pick due to his dumbass mistakes at KU. If he hadn’t been considered of high character coming out of High School that he would be majorly penalized.
You earn your reputation, I hope he can clean his back up.
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@Kcmatt7 Suns were also looking at DeAndre Jordan for Chandler plus a draft pick but balked at giving up a pick.
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@approxinfinity Suns should have gone for Howard. I think the entire league would have gone after Howard if they knew how cheap he would be.
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Well in my up bringing I’ve seen women that would rattle your teeth. Hey I’m not condoning violence against women. Yet trying to paint JJ as a women beater is weak. He kicked a car door. Geez dude.
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DoubleDD said:
Well in my up bringing I’ve seen women that would rattle your teeth. Hey I’m not condoning violence against women. Yet trying to paint JJ as a women beater is weak. He kicked a car door. Geez dude.
you are right. Its Vick who’s the woman beater
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The argument isn’t whether or not you think JJ is a good person. The argument is if you want to invest millions of dollars into a guy who was in two police altercations in the last year.
There are players who have no police altercations their college career that people think are questionable off the court. A kid from Detroit with two altercations? People are going to be skeptical, and rightfully so.
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Hold on just a second…
Police altercation appears to imply that he had an altercation with police officers which as we know is not the case.
He had two incident that eventually involved the Police. Lets be clear that in the first one at the night club’s parking lot, he was charged only with criminal damage to property and NOT with assault which would have been the case if he made threats that made the woman in question feel in danger.
The second involved a hit and run, which is something that happens all the time. I have personally had my car hit a few times at parking lots and hardly ever anyone left any information. One time in Lawrence at an event, my car got hit and there were several witnesses and the lady was told to leave a note with her phone number, which she did, but one of the witnesses was suspicious and got her tags as well. As it turned out, the phone number she left was wrong and when the Police checked the tags it turned out to be the wife of the Lawrence City Attorney. The Police contacted her and she claimed she transposed a couple of numbers on the number she left by mistake…right. With all the surveillance cameras around, it is now more difficult to get away with it and Josh made a bone headed mistake and got caught.
While the first incident is very serious, the second is just one level up from a traffic ticket and not really that big of a deal.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
in the first one at the night club’s parking lot, he was charged only with criminal damage to property and NOT with assault which would have been the case if he made threats that made the woman in question feel in danger.
I’m willing to accept that, but I imagine myself in a car being kicked and damaged by several athletic young males and I imagine myself in danger.
So a verbal threat is assault but physically damaging the car I am in is not? Me no understand…
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@ParisHawk Assault involves bodily harm or the threat of bodily harm. Kicking a car is not harming someone physically or threatening them physically.
Can we also stop pretending like this is a one way incident with Josh doing everything and Calvert doing nothing wrong. She was the instigator in this event and a big part of why She’s no longer apart of the women’s team.
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Assault does not require physical contact. If he threatened her to the point that she felt unsafe, even when he physically did not touch her, he would have been charged with assault, if he touched her as well assault and battery.
Obviously the Police/prosecutors felt that whatever he said to her did not raise to the level of assault and she and her companion in her car were not at any time in danger and hence the lone charge of criminal damage to property.
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Um it wasn’t several male athletes? Come on man. Don’t try to gloss over the facts of the case.
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Mr Calvert didn’t seem to concerned for her well-being. After calling LJW and being shut down, the Star was thrilled to post all his accusations. His interest was strictly monetary. Finally, SZ spoke up for KU and told the Calverts if they would sign the waiver KU could discuss this in the open. Not another peep! Girl Calvert is transfering at semester. There is so much more to this story than we know. If I had a daughter that had been hit, kicked, beat or abused in any way, something would have been done about it and I would have pulled her out. If she was afraid while she was in the car, she had options, honk the horn, back over them, call 911. Keep in mind she had a hit an run earlier, and she wasnt allowed to go in other dorms or housing on campus. From just reading the reports, sounds like she needs to keep her mouth shut too. Really wished she would have signed the waiver!
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@ParisHawk Assault involves bodily harm or the threat of bodily harm. Kicking a car is not harming someone physically or threatening them physically.
OK, I accept that, thanks.
Can we also stop pretending like this is a one way incident with Josh doing everything and Calvert doing nothing wrong. She was the instigator in this event and a big part of why She’s no longer apart of the women’s team.
Who is “we”? I never pretended Calvert did nothing wrong. I did say that was no excuse. Difference.
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DoubleDD said:
Um it wasn’t several male athletes? Come on man. Don’t try to gloss over the facts of the case.
I didn’t say several male athletes. I said several athletic young males. The police report stated several people damaged the car. I did assume they were all male and that there were no 90-pound weaklings. That is not “glossing over the facts of the case”.
I am really surprised by some of the reactions here. The guy did wrong. There was nothing wrong with him being charged and brought before a court, and there was nothing wrong with the treatment he received in court.
Did the judge make any excuses for him? If not, why should I?
Anyone who thinks the police or the judge went too far, say why.
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I think it’s time to pull out the dead horse image again.
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KUSTEVE said:
I think it’s time to pull out the dead horse image again.
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I’m ready for the good old times, back when I believed all of KU’s players to be of high character.
Man, I’d rather be talking about Mason than Jackson. That dude is a stud and a seemingly great guy.
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@HawksWin Isn’t tonight when the draft is? - - I was thinking it was tonight? - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@ParisHawk Of course, you are correct. I’m never surprised though by these sorts of rationalizations and attempts at minimization. It’s expected when it comes to KU players – interesting, most of the time the good ones. If it’s someone that disappoints, like Brannen Greene or Conner Frankamp, some who have rationalized JJ’s conduct (like @Crimsonorblue22) cast them as the devil. Complete hypocrisy.
I always love the “there is much more to this story than we know.” Ok. That means the writer of that quote doesn’t know, but will speculate that there is more – implying of course that the additional information that the writer does not know favors JJ. That’s just garbage. The same writer will speculate, and has, that there is much more to the story regarding BG or CF, implying there is more negative information. Solely because of ones like or dislike of a particular player. There is always info we don’t know. It’s just interesting how that is treated.
But this case is exactly what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. What we supposedly don’t know, I’m sure the prosecutor did know. The prosecutor could have charged this as an assault if he/she felt it met the burden. And likely, because the lady was inside of a big piece of steel (the car) and the windows weren’t busted out and/or JJ didn’t try to open the door, the prosecutor passed on that charge.
JJ’s conduct stands alone. Period.
The further folly here, as highlighted in @Texas-Hawk-10’s comment, that some can’t get through their heads, is that NO ONE IS PRETENDING THIS IS A ONE WAY INCIDENT. No one. It’s a complete strawman argument. It’s the type of argument that is intended, purposefully, to distract and CREATE a narrative that is simply untrue. How hard is this?
@Texas-Hawk-10, further, your definition of assault in Kansas is partially wrong. You suggest that an “Assault involves bodily harm or …” That is incorrect. What you put after your “or” is correct – threatening them. An assault in Kansas is “knowingly placing another person in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily harm.” It’s before bodily harm. So, if someone randomly hits someone in the back of the head with a fist, most think the person was assaulted. Common usage, yes. Legally in Kansas, no. That is a battery and because the person had no immediate apprehension, then there is no “assault”.
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@JayHawkFanToo I stand by my statement. No matter how petty they are, he had two police “issues”. Is that better?
So now you have to wonder what happens to a kid like that after you give him millions of dollars and even more fame. That is my point. Idgaf what he was ultimately charged with. He went after a woman in some form and he performed a hit and run. Only fact that matter is he was guilty of two crimes that ARE above a traffic violation. And that is an issue. Period.
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looks like Jackson could slide to 5 to the Kings. Career suicide if that happens
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@BeddieKU23 Who do you think the Suns take at 4?
Suns will trade that pick before they give JJ to the Kings.
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Kcmatt7 said:
He went after a woman in some form and he performed a hit and run. Only fact that matter is he was guilty of two crimes that ARE above a traffic violation. And that is an issue. Period.
He did not go after the woman, he hit her car and this is why he was not charged with assault…I believe than under our legal system, we still have the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, tight?
He did not “perform” a hit and run, he accidentally hit a car while backing up from a parking spot at a KU parking lot, something that probably happens multiple times a day at private parking lots at KU. I am not sure the Police was involved in this incident and probably Campus Police (not the real Police) got involved and the issue resolved; typically, Police does not get involved in incident on private property unless there are injuries. Do you have information that the City Police (real Police) was ever involved?
I don’t understand why you are trying to make his actions look worse than they are. We all agree that both incidents were bad but nothing earth shattering. The first one more serious but the second just above the level of a traffic ticket.
Again, none of us condone or minimize what he did but we do not need to make it worse that it is either. Just my opinion.
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@JayHawkFanToo I’m not making him look any worse. And innocent until proven guilty doesn’t mean a damn thing to me right now if I’m a GM investing millions. In fact, I probably take the approach that he is guilty of anything said just to be cautious. Which is the point I have made which you continue to ignore.
People applying for jobs don’t get hired for something as small as posting things on the internet. Much less actually breaking the law. Go and try to get a good job with two misdemeanors on your record in the last year and tell me how that goes.
Is someone with two misdemeanors in the last 7 months someone you would 100% feel confident giving $5M guaranteed ever year for 3 years to?
That is the point I am making that you are ignoring. I don’t care if JJ volunteers every Sunday at a soup kitchen after church where he is a youth minister for underprivileged children missing a leg. He still committed two crimes int he past 7 months and that raises character questions no matter who you are. And that scrutiny only multiplies when you are talking about giving someone $15M.
We obviously have a difference of opinion on the crimes. Which is why I really avoided talking about them in great detail. But again, for a 3rd time in this post, my point is that JJ is still a risky pick due to the fact he DID commit two crimes. If you have anything that would be an argument contrary to my belief that GMs are in fact worried about JJ’s character issues, please list those. Another post minimizing his crimes based on technicalities is not what I am asking for, just to be clear. Simply, whether or not you would feel comfortable giving someone with two misdemeanors $15M in guaranteed money.
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Just a little suggestion: In the military judicial system, after a conviiction has been handed down (regardless of whether the accused pled guilty), the formalities proceed to sentencing. The prosecution can present evidence showing “aggravation” to justify a severe sentence (extensive treatment needed for injuries of a victim, for example, or prior criminal record of the perp). Defense can present evidence in “extenuation or mitigation” in an effort to get a lighter sentence (good prior character, for example, or diminished mental capacity). Civilian courts do much the same, but don’t usually seem to have such formal categories for it.
If Calvert McK did anything in the bar or elsewhere to help provoke an incident, it would be considered as a type of extenuation evidence–i.e., it could be offered as an explanation for how a group of people got caught up in mutually provocative stuff until it resulted in the crime at issue. Explanation hoping to show it was a unique circumstance, but not justification.
If JJ’s beating and kicking of the car occurred in concert with other people doing the same thing, or if Calvert felt personally threatened by the attack, that would be something considered as aggravation. Not a separately charged crime, but a circumstance justifying consideration that this was significantly more severe than, say, a one-time frustrated ramming of an unoccupied car with a shopping cart causing the same damage.
My point is this: if you want to consider one, you have to consider the other. People defending JJ because of how it developed need to acknowledge that he took it way beyong anything she provoked. People pointing out how scared she may have been need to consider the legitimacy of arguments showing that she certainly displayed aggressive conduct, too, and might not have been scared at all.
But the attacks based on what other people are urging to be considered should stop. Both sides have valid points. The moral high ground is not occupied by anyone here.
I personally doubt that JJ turns out to be a Ron Artest, and chokes his coach or goes after a fan. But all draft choices are risky, as are any choices where we align our fortunes with others.
Can we get back to acting like we are all fans of the same team?
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@mayjay So, where do you see Josh being drafted? I’m thinking number 3, although I could be wrong.
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@jayballer54 - Yes, tonight we will know! Hoping (100% emotion-based) Josh #1, and Mason #27 (applied 0% logic, 0% analysis)
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@Crimsonorblue22 - wonder if Calvert was bitter, envious, jealous, angry young woman wanting equal treatment as the KU Men’s BB? After all, she considered herself a good player I’m sure, but she and her team weren’t shown the same love, adoration, support from the KU fans. Did she think she was entitled to the same notoriety as Jackson & other players were receiving? Whatever her state of mind, she was toxic for the players. They should have ran as fast as they could from her!! If my son was slapped, kicked, pushed, yelled at by a drunken self-elated prima-donna, I’m not sure a gentlemanly response would have made any difference to girls like her wanting to chop & challenge the boys’ ego & manhood in the name of equality. These boys are still maturing. And if my daughter behaved the way Calvert did, she won’t be treated like a princess just because she’s a girl when she’s behaving like a mad bull in dress. Bet Josh’s mom will straighten him out, and hope he’ll avoid toxic Calverts of the world.
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@HawksWin I don’t condone josh’s behavior. He was sticking up for his teammate. I think she has some serious problems and it’s to bad she won’t sign the waiver so KU can talk, like her and her dad. I’m anxious to see what 3rd school will take her.
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@KUSTEVE I still think he could, if used properly, play 4 positions on the court, creating havoc for defenses. But coaches and GMs, especially for the teams who have earned high draft picks, get stuck in their own conservatism. They will wish he was taller as a forward, a better shooter as a wing, and more disciplined with the ball if acting as point forward or guard. So I would pick him #1 but he might go as low as 5 if trades influence order.
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@elpoyo Serious question: do you work for CNN?
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Now you are comparing apples and oranges. Josh Jackson is not applying to be a teacher, a counselor, an accountant, a doctor, an attorney or a priest, he is applying to be a basketball player in a League in which incidents like his are nothing new.
If I am hiring an accountant to do my books and manage my company’s accounts I certainly would hire someone with an extra clean record; however, if I am hiring someone to dig fence posts holes on my backyard, I could not care less what he did a long as he does the work and stays out of trouble while working for me.
If character would be requirement for every job, then the Kardashians, who much like Jackson are in the entertainment business, would be in the poor house since they have no talent or morals.
Kobi Bryant was rewarded with huge contract and he became even more popular after the rape accusation and out of court settlement.
The Chiefs drafted Tyreek Hill, who had been dismissed from Oklahoma State after pleading guilty to choking his pregnant girlfriend, a crime that is considerably more serious than anything Josh did and now he is cheered by the fans.
Have you ever heard of Pacman Jones, a crime wave all by himself?
I could go on but it serves no purpose.
Again and in my opinion, you are blowing out Jackson’s issues out of proportion and making them worse than they are. We agree that he made mistakes but we disagree that they define who Jackson is and on how much will affect his draft status. Contracts are loaded with morals clauses that would allow teams to get rid of him if he gets into further trouble.
I guess we will know in a couple of hours how these issues affected his draft status. If he falls below the top 4-5 then we will know it probably had an effect, otherwise it will not have had any.
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@JayHawkFanToo gotta say, character counts in every way to me.
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@JayHawkFanToo I completely disagree and find so much wrong with your entire statement. So, I’ll just leave it at that.
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Some 18 posts ago it was suggested we are beating a dead horse.
Now, we are making glue.
@approxinfinity, can you PLEASE end this? Minds are made up.
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@mayjay You can choose not to follow the thread. Nothing hurtful has been said so no reason to end it. Just a debate.
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I agree that it’s glue, but I agree with @Kcmatt7. If people want to keep going with it, it hasn’t gotten out of control.
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I do agree with both of you. At this time some people believe that what Jackson did was so serious that should define who he is, others believe it’s not a big deal and most of us are somewhere in between, where we don’t approve or condone what he did but we also believe that is should not be made any worse than its is and should not define what Jackson is. No doubt all position have some merit and, if still doing debate, I could defend any of them
As you recall, Jackson got a couple or three “Ts” early in the season, one fully unwarranted and even the announcers said so, but he learned his lesson, realized that sometimes bad calls happen, buttoned his lip and did not get any more T’s the rest of the season. I think the kids is a fast learner and he will always remember what these incidents could have cost him and will be a good citizen going forward.
I have to say that this thread, although repetitive, its has not gotten confrontational or rude and while there appears to be little left to say on the subject, there is no need to shut it down; I am certainly out of things to say and moving to other threads/topics.
Again, we can always agree to disagree.
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@JayHawkFanToo I wonder how those T’s will pan out in the league? Seems reaction is promoted
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Jackson is a fast learner and has learned to keep his temper in check. Remember how at the beginning of the season we used to cringe when he took a 3 point shot? Well…his 3 point shooting went from 0.318 before conference to 0.435 in conference play, a result of better mechanics but most of all better shot selection; a huge improvement no doubt. Jackson will do well in the NBA not only because his God given athleticism but also his desire to win and the work ethic to make it happen.
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@JayHawkFanToo Something encouraging to me about his chances going forward is that HCBS went to the draft supporting him all the way, and JJ specifically talked about how much this meant to him. If he were hiding latent thug tendencies, I don’t see Self investing himself in JJ’s future so visibly. And I figure Self and the rest of the staff know him best.
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I agree, it makes sense.
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KU is an elite program. So sad some fans think the men players should be perfect. OH GOD if they aren’t then they are cursed for life. Hey we fans know. So Players if you do wrong at KU just give up. Quit? You have no chance. Because some of our KU fans know. Don’t fight it, just accept it. They are experts on what is acceptable and not acceptable.
So making a sales pitch to high school women looking for a college basketball career. Come to KU. No really. As some our fans believe that you can come do what ever you want without punishment. You can spit in a persons face. Slam a drink in someone’s face. Hell punch a man in his face and your Golden. If a KU man so much gets angry at any of these actions. Then he has the problem and shows a lack of character of a good law abiding citizen.
So come ladies and play basketball and abuse KU men. Our fans will back your actions.
