Josh to Celtics #1?
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I think it’s time to pull out the dead horse image again.
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KUSTEVE said:
I think it’s time to pull out the dead horse image again.
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I’m ready for the good old times, back when I believed all of KU’s players to be of high character.
Man, I’d rather be talking about Mason than Jackson. That dude is a stud and a seemingly great guy.
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@HawksWin Isn’t tonight when the draft is? - - I was thinking it was tonight? - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@ParisHawk Of course, you are correct. I’m never surprised though by these sorts of rationalizations and attempts at minimization. It’s expected when it comes to KU players – interesting, most of the time the good ones. If it’s someone that disappoints, like Brannen Greene or Conner Frankamp, some who have rationalized JJ’s conduct (like @Crimsonorblue22) cast them as the devil. Complete hypocrisy.
I always love the “there is much more to this story than we know.” Ok. That means the writer of that quote doesn’t know, but will speculate that there is more – implying of course that the additional information that the writer does not know favors JJ. That’s just garbage. The same writer will speculate, and has, that there is much more to the story regarding BG or CF, implying there is more negative information. Solely because of ones like or dislike of a particular player. There is always info we don’t know. It’s just interesting how that is treated.
But this case is exactly what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. What we supposedly don’t know, I’m sure the prosecutor did know. The prosecutor could have charged this as an assault if he/she felt it met the burden. And likely, because the lady was inside of a big piece of steel (the car) and the windows weren’t busted out and/or JJ didn’t try to open the door, the prosecutor passed on that charge.
JJ’s conduct stands alone. Period.
The further folly here, as highlighted in @Texas-Hawk-10’s comment, that some can’t get through their heads, is that NO ONE IS PRETENDING THIS IS A ONE WAY INCIDENT. No one. It’s a complete strawman argument. It’s the type of argument that is intended, purposefully, to distract and CREATE a narrative that is simply untrue. How hard is this?
@Texas-Hawk-10, further, your definition of assault in Kansas is partially wrong. You suggest that an “Assault involves bodily harm or …” That is incorrect. What you put after your “or” is correct – threatening them. An assault in Kansas is “knowingly placing another person in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily harm.” It’s before bodily harm. So, if someone randomly hits someone in the back of the head with a fist, most think the person was assaulted. Common usage, yes. Legally in Kansas, no. That is a battery and because the person had no immediate apprehension, then there is no “assault”.
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@JayHawkFanToo I stand by my statement. No matter how petty they are, he had two police “issues”. Is that better?
So now you have to wonder what happens to a kid like that after you give him millions of dollars and even more fame. That is my point. Idgaf what he was ultimately charged with. He went after a woman in some form and he performed a hit and run. Only fact that matter is he was guilty of two crimes that ARE above a traffic violation. And that is an issue. Period.
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looks like Jackson could slide to 5 to the Kings. Career suicide if that happens
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@BeddieKU23 Who do you think the Suns take at 4?
Suns will trade that pick before they give JJ to the Kings.
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Kcmatt7 said:
He went after a woman in some form and he performed a hit and run. Only fact that matter is he was guilty of two crimes that ARE above a traffic violation. And that is an issue. Period.
He did not go after the woman, he hit her car and this is why he was not charged with assault…I believe than under our legal system, we still have the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, tight?
He did not “perform” a hit and run, he accidentally hit a car while backing up from a parking spot at a KU parking lot, something that probably happens multiple times a day at private parking lots at KU. I am not sure the Police was involved in this incident and probably Campus Police (not the real Police) got involved and the issue resolved; typically, Police does not get involved in incident on private property unless there are injuries. Do you have information that the City Police (real Police) was ever involved?
I don’t understand why you are trying to make his actions look worse than they are. We all agree that both incidents were bad but nothing earth shattering. The first one more serious but the second just above the level of a traffic ticket.
Again, none of us condone or minimize what he did but we do not need to make it worse that it is either. Just my opinion.
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@JayHawkFanToo I’m not making him look any worse. And innocent until proven guilty doesn’t mean a damn thing to me right now if I’m a GM investing millions. In fact, I probably take the approach that he is guilty of anything said just to be cautious. Which is the point I have made which you continue to ignore.
People applying for jobs don’t get hired for something as small as posting things on the internet. Much less actually breaking the law. Go and try to get a good job with two misdemeanors on your record in the last year and tell me how that goes.
Is someone with two misdemeanors in the last 7 months someone you would 100% feel confident giving $5M guaranteed ever year for 3 years to?
That is the point I am making that you are ignoring. I don’t care if JJ volunteers every Sunday at a soup kitchen after church where he is a youth minister for underprivileged children missing a leg. He still committed two crimes int he past 7 months and that raises character questions no matter who you are. And that scrutiny only multiplies when you are talking about giving someone $15M.
We obviously have a difference of opinion on the crimes. Which is why I really avoided talking about them in great detail. But again, for a 3rd time in this post, my point is that JJ is still a risky pick due to the fact he DID commit two crimes. If you have anything that would be an argument contrary to my belief that GMs are in fact worried about JJ’s character issues, please list those. Another post minimizing his crimes based on technicalities is not what I am asking for, just to be clear. Simply, whether or not you would feel comfortable giving someone with two misdemeanors $15M in guaranteed money.
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Just a little suggestion: In the military judicial system, after a conviiction has been handed down (regardless of whether the accused pled guilty), the formalities proceed to sentencing. The prosecution can present evidence showing “aggravation” to justify a severe sentence (extensive treatment needed for injuries of a victim, for example, or prior criminal record of the perp). Defense can present evidence in “extenuation or mitigation” in an effort to get a lighter sentence (good prior character, for example, or diminished mental capacity). Civilian courts do much the same, but don’t usually seem to have such formal categories for it.
If Calvert McK did anything in the bar or elsewhere to help provoke an incident, it would be considered as a type of extenuation evidence–i.e., it could be offered as an explanation for how a group of people got caught up in mutually provocative stuff until it resulted in the crime at issue. Explanation hoping to show it was a unique circumstance, but not justification.
If JJ’s beating and kicking of the car occurred in concert with other people doing the same thing, or if Calvert felt personally threatened by the attack, that would be something considered as aggravation. Not a separately charged crime, but a circumstance justifying consideration that this was significantly more severe than, say, a one-time frustrated ramming of an unoccupied car with a shopping cart causing the same damage.
My point is this: if you want to consider one, you have to consider the other. People defending JJ because of how it developed need to acknowledge that he took it way beyong anything she provoked. People pointing out how scared she may have been need to consider the legitimacy of arguments showing that she certainly displayed aggressive conduct, too, and might not have been scared at all.
But the attacks based on what other people are urging to be considered should stop. Both sides have valid points. The moral high ground is not occupied by anyone here.
I personally doubt that JJ turns out to be a Ron Artest, and chokes his coach or goes after a fan. But all draft choices are risky, as are any choices where we align our fortunes with others.
Can we get back to acting like we are all fans of the same team?
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@mayjay So, where do you see Josh being drafted? I’m thinking number 3, although I could be wrong.
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@jayballer54 - Yes, tonight we will know! Hoping (100% emotion-based) Josh #1, and Mason #27 (applied 0% logic, 0% analysis)
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@Crimsonorblue22 - wonder if Calvert was bitter, envious, jealous, angry young woman wanting equal treatment as the KU Men’s BB? After all, she considered herself a good player I’m sure, but she and her team weren’t shown the same love, adoration, support from the KU fans. Did she think she was entitled to the same notoriety as Jackson & other players were receiving? Whatever her state of mind, she was toxic for the players. They should have ran as fast as they could from her!! If my son was slapped, kicked, pushed, yelled at by a drunken self-elated prima-donna, I’m not sure a gentlemanly response would have made any difference to girls like her wanting to chop & challenge the boys’ ego & manhood in the name of equality. These boys are still maturing. And if my daughter behaved the way Calvert did, she won’t be treated like a princess just because she’s a girl when she’s behaving like a mad bull in dress. Bet Josh’s mom will straighten him out, and hope he’ll avoid toxic Calverts of the world.
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@HawksWin I don’t condone josh’s behavior. He was sticking up for his teammate. I think she has some serious problems and it’s to bad she won’t sign the waiver so KU can talk, like her and her dad. I’m anxious to see what 3rd school will take her.
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@KUSTEVE I still think he could, if used properly, play 4 positions on the court, creating havoc for defenses. But coaches and GMs, especially for the teams who have earned high draft picks, get stuck in their own conservatism. They will wish he was taller as a forward, a better shooter as a wing, and more disciplined with the ball if acting as point forward or guard. So I would pick him #1 but he might go as low as 5 if trades influence order.
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@elpoyo Serious question: do you work for CNN?
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Now you are comparing apples and oranges. Josh Jackson is not applying to be a teacher, a counselor, an accountant, a doctor, an attorney or a priest, he is applying to be a basketball player in a League in which incidents like his are nothing new.
If I am hiring an accountant to do my books and manage my company’s accounts I certainly would hire someone with an extra clean record; however, if I am hiring someone to dig fence posts holes on my backyard, I could not care less what he did a long as he does the work and stays out of trouble while working for me.
If character would be requirement for every job, then the Kardashians, who much like Jackson are in the entertainment business, would be in the poor house since they have no talent or morals.
Kobi Bryant was rewarded with huge contract and he became even more popular after the rape accusation and out of court settlement.
The Chiefs drafted Tyreek Hill, who had been dismissed from Oklahoma State after pleading guilty to choking his pregnant girlfriend, a crime that is considerably more serious than anything Josh did and now he is cheered by the fans.
Have you ever heard of Pacman Jones, a crime wave all by himself?
I could go on but it serves no purpose.
Again and in my opinion, you are blowing out Jackson’s issues out of proportion and making them worse than they are. We agree that he made mistakes but we disagree that they define who Jackson is and on how much will affect his draft status. Contracts are loaded with morals clauses that would allow teams to get rid of him if he gets into further trouble.
I guess we will know in a couple of hours how these issues affected his draft status. If he falls below the top 4-5 then we will know it probably had an effect, otherwise it will not have had any.
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@JayHawkFanToo gotta say, character counts in every way to me.
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@JayHawkFanToo I completely disagree and find so much wrong with your entire statement. So, I’ll just leave it at that.
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Some 18 posts ago it was suggested we are beating a dead horse.
Now, we are making glue.
@approxinfinity, can you PLEASE end this? Minds are made up.
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@mayjay You can choose not to follow the thread. Nothing hurtful has been said so no reason to end it. Just a debate.
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I agree that it’s glue, but I agree with @Kcmatt7. If people want to keep going with it, it hasn’t gotten out of control.
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I do agree with both of you. At this time some people believe that what Jackson did was so serious that should define who he is, others believe it’s not a big deal and most of us are somewhere in between, where we don’t approve or condone what he did but we also believe that is should not be made any worse than its is and should not define what Jackson is. No doubt all position have some merit and, if still doing debate, I could defend any of them
As you recall, Jackson got a couple or three “Ts” early in the season, one fully unwarranted and even the announcers said so, but he learned his lesson, realized that sometimes bad calls happen, buttoned his lip and did not get any more T’s the rest of the season. I think the kids is a fast learner and he will always remember what these incidents could have cost him and will be a good citizen going forward.
I have to say that this thread, although repetitive, its has not gotten confrontational or rude and while there appears to be little left to say on the subject, there is no need to shut it down; I am certainly out of things to say and moving to other threads/topics.
Again, we can always agree to disagree.
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@JayHawkFanToo I wonder how those T’s will pan out in the league? Seems reaction is promoted
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Jackson is a fast learner and has learned to keep his temper in check. Remember how at the beginning of the season we used to cringe when he took a 3 point shot? Well…his 3 point shooting went from 0.318 before conference to 0.435 in conference play, a result of better mechanics but most of all better shot selection; a huge improvement no doubt. Jackson will do well in the NBA not only because his God given athleticism but also his desire to win and the work ethic to make it happen.
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@JayHawkFanToo Something encouraging to me about his chances going forward is that HCBS went to the draft supporting him all the way, and JJ specifically talked about how much this meant to him. If he were hiding latent thug tendencies, I don’t see Self investing himself in JJ’s future so visibly. And I figure Self and the rest of the staff know him best.
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I agree, it makes sense.
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KU is an elite program. So sad some fans think the men players should be perfect. OH GOD if they aren’t then they are cursed for life. Hey we fans know. So Players if you do wrong at KU just give up. Quit? You have no chance. Because some of our KU fans know. Don’t fight it, just accept it. They are experts on what is acceptable and not acceptable.
So making a sales pitch to high school women looking for a college basketball career. Come to KU. No really. As some our fans believe that you can come do what ever you want without punishment. You can spit in a persons face. Slam a drink in someone’s face. Hell punch a man in his face and your Golden. If a KU man so much gets angry at any of these actions. Then he has the problem and shows a lack of character of a good law abiding citizen.
So come ladies and play basketball and abuse KU men. Our fans will back your actions.
