Josh to Celtics #1?
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@elpoyo I would not apply @stoptheflop’s significantly misguided comments – particularly the “Who amongst us didn’t do something equally stupid when we were young” – to this entire board, or even most of this board. To your point, I’ve seen nothing that tells me that JJ is a “terrific young man.” The evidence would indicate otherwise, but ambivalence might be my spot right now. I would say this, though, he didn’t rob a bank. He didn’t hurt anyone (which is a big deal to me). That doesn’t diminish what he did. There is just a continuum of poor conduct. His was clearly worse than kids will be kids.
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I would bring up points but what is the point? Keep being you and I will keep shaking my head.
See you at the net cutting of the National Championship. I’ll be celebrating how great KU is, and you’ll be nowhere to be found.
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I love your posts but with this one. I think you stepped on the out of bounds line. You mention kids doing wrong and what JJ was far beyond what normal kids do.
Hell my friend I’m an adult and I’ve done things I regret. Believe me they were far worse than what JJ did.
Hell man head up to strawberry hill across from downtown KC and tell me those kids are going to act like those kids from say Shawnee KC. Have the same dreams? Have the same support? Have the same chances to better their lives?
Life isn’t fair my man We just play the cards we are dealt. Wrong or Right. Some are born with silver spoons, and some of us born with only the desire to survive.
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@elpoyo Thanks for your thoughts. As a parent, I hope my children are perfect and don’t make any mistakes. But, when they do screw up I also hope they accept responsibility and accept the consequences. I’m proud of Josh despite his failures and look forward to his NBA career. He has a chance to do great things and I will be rooting for him the whole way.
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I think the trade between the Celtics and 76ers, all but solidifies the top 3. Fultz to the 76ers, Ball to the Lakers, and Josh to Celtics.
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So what happens if Josh goes to the Lakers? Not exactly what Boston was hoping for right?
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So what happens if Josh goes to the Lakers? Not exactly what Boston was hoping for right?
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I think that Josh probably needs some solid good mentoring, needs to hang with pro players whose histories are on the straighter and narrower. His inclinations tend toward self mutilation. If he should run with one or both of the Morrii, I’d expect calamity. That said, there are facets of Josh which are most pleasant and well received. Perhaps a wise personal agent will serve him well. Maybe Mom should plan to move to the franchise city where he eventually lands?
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@stoptheflop I don’t know how old your kids are, but what JJ did was not a normal mistake by a kid.
@DoubleDD So, if I’m following you, because someone might have had a more difficult upbringing, that is an excuse for criminal behavior? That works real well – see the Lansing state prison.
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No, not all. That’s not what I’m saying at all. A crime is a crime, and the punishment should be handed out per the crime.
However perception’s are more like opinions. In that you base them off what you know, what you have experienced. For instance you and few others are in the mind set that what JJ did was abnormal for a kid, while I’ll contest this behavior isn’t that farfetched and in some places upheld.
The prism for which we look through often creates the perception we believe to be the truth. Our surroundings and up bringing have major contributions to how we view and interact with our society.
Understand that JJ’s friend was yelled and mocked in a bar. A drink was thrown in his friends face. This same female had caused Vick trouble before. Oh something was going to happen.
Now is the justification? Yes and No. Yes because were JJ comes from he showed Vick that he was his boy. No because it is indeed breaking the law.
Really my point was JJ’s actions or reaction isn’t that abnormal for a kid/young man. It all just depends on your perception.
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His personality traits are brilliant on the court. They allow him to be the ultimate competitor, the most aggressive player on the court. In real life, those traits can be quite a problem. So, he’ll have to learn to fake it off the court. Maybe the next time, he trash talks the girl, but he doesn’t bust out her windshield. Maybe the next time he hits a parked car, he calls his agent, and everything is fixed. His core will never change- he is, and will always be a carnivore.
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@KUSTEVE I think the fact that she was a girl doesnt really matter, except that people force it into the story. I agree with you that any person who messes with Josh’s teammate is likely to be on Josh’s bad side and that he probably will handle it better in the future but I’m pretty sure they will still catch an earful from him.
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HighEliteMajor said:
what JJ did was not a normal mistake by a kid.
I agree. Whatever “normal” may be, that was not a “mistake”.
JJ was one of several angry young men, some or all athletes, who were damaging that car with a girl inside! Anyone have a daughter or sister or niece of college age? If that were her in that car being traumatized what would you be thinking?
Not throwing JJ under the bus. He admitted, got a diversion with appropriate conditions and a good second chance. Anyone think he should have gotten off with less?
We still have Vick. How “normal” is he?
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@ParisHawk does it matter that she was a girl? How do you know she was being tramautized? It seems people want to portray her as some innocent helpless girl. She’s a D-I baller in a P5 conference. She’s seen stuff, done stuff, understands stuff. And it seems she had a pretty active role to play in the situation. Let’s give her some credit in that regard. Similarly, while Josh is an old freshman, he’s still a college freshman. Let’s not assume that his decisions now are indicative of his adult character. Let’s look at this through the lens of the current times.
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@approxinfinity Really, the fact that the focus of JJ’s anger was a girl/woman, means everything. If he did this to a man, while unacceptable, it is much different. I don’t know, this might provoke the claims of sexism and all of that misplaced garbage. But I’m happily in the camp that you treat women differently solely because they are women – women deserve courtesy and kindness, even when they are not of the same mind. That’s what you do as a man. I’m not really concerned about what one might speculate that she’s seen, heard, or experienced. Perhaps she needs to experience a man who isn’t going to act like this (even if one assumes her to be the source of the problems). I know there can be extreme examples that test my beliefs, so I grant those arguments. JJ went way overboard. If JJ acts that way when a woman disrespects a friend, how does he act when he is the point of disrespect? A reasonable question. Perhaps this incident, as I’ve mentioned in posts when this occurred, can be low impact lesson that prevents a more serious future issue.
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But I’m happily in the camp that you treat women differently solely because they are women – women deserve courtesy and kindness, even when they are not of the same mind.
I disagree 100% with this
My stance is this: you treat women equally because they are people, and all people deserve courtesy and kindness, even when they are not of the same mind. (And then of course, you gotta look out for yourself if they’re really crapping on your parade; but this should be a high threshold)
Now granted, in practice it’s easy to falter. And I’m not a saint. But shouldn’t we be treating everyone, not just women, with the same high standards of compassion and decency?
When you say maybe she need to experience a man that won’t act like this, is it possible that you are you implying that by being a good man (not a good person, but specifically a good man), Josh may make her want to be a better woman? She was not romantically involved with Josh, so this seems a little weird to me. Maybe experiencing a strictly platonic encounter with a man who IS going to act like this and not put up with her BS opened her eyes. Who knows?
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approxinfinity said:
@ParisHawk does it matter that she was a girl?
Yes, somewhat.
How do you know she was being tramautized?
That is a BS question. Picture the scenario, for crying out loud: alone in your car with a gang kicking away at it and shouting at you. You don’t think that’s menacing?
You use the word “know” to imply that I need to prove she was traumatized. Prove she wasn’t.
It seems people want to portray her as some innocent helpless girl. She’s a D-I baller in a P5 conference. She’s seen stuff, done stuff, understands stuff. And it seems she had a pretty active role to play in the situation. Let’s give her some credit in that regard.
This reminds me of the page from an Elmore Leonard novel: one guy says “Did you know once every 7 seconds a woman gets beaten in the US?” and the other replies “Hard to believe so many women get out of line.”
I’m not equating JJ’s actions to beating. My point is it what she did is no excuse.
Similarly, while Josh is an old freshman, he’s still a college freshman. Let’s not assume that his decisions now are indicative of his adult character.
I wasn’t talking about his character, I was talking about that one action. Not normal, not a “mistake”.
Let’s look at this through the lens of the current times.
That sentence scares me. More relativism - and worse, graver conflict among everyone concerning acceptable behavior. We who have a common bond here can’t even agree that what JJ did was wrong, and wrong enough to be brought before a judge?
You didn’t answer my question: was JJ’s treatment by the court too harsh for you?
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@ParisHawk McKenzie Calvert wasn’t alone in the car, there were two other girls with her. Calvert was also the instigator in this event.
As intense as the situation got, based on the police report, Jackson did show some restraint because there are plenty of men out there who would have physically assaulted Calvert in the situation.
Jackson’s intensity and aggression is a double edged sword as it’s a huge part of why he’s so great on the court, but it also can be a negative off the court because it can lead to situations like the Calvert situation where he doesn’t let something go that he should have.
I’m guessing he learned some ways to channel that anger and aggression off the court in ways that won’t lead to charges being filed against him.
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Josh < 25 years of age = cerebral cortex not fully developed. Like all adolescents, he will mature and decision making will improve.
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ZIG said:
I think the trade between the Celtics and 76ers, all but solidifies the top 3. Fultz to the 76ers, Ball to the Lakers, and Josh to Celtics.
That would be great for JJ. Where does he fit on the Celtics team though… They drafted Brown in the top 5 with similar attributes last year and he carved out a nice role as a rookie.
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ParisHawk said:
That is a BS question. Picture the scenario, for crying out loud: alone in your car with a gang kicking away at it and shouting at you. You don’t think that’s menacing?
This is an appeal to emotion and doesn’t seem rational. Josh and his friends aren’t a gang. I don’t think this was a premeditated effort to terrorize Calvert. I cannot in a million years imagine myself having done something to invoke the wrath of JJ and friends vandalizing my car so this doesn’t hold water with me. If you are asking me to replace in my mind Josh and friends with another group of random people, well that troubles me. Who are the other people and what are their motives?
You use the word “know” to imply that I need to prove she was traumatized. Prove she wasn’t.
This is shifting the burden of proof. Josh was the accused. Innocent until proven guilty.
This reminds me of the page from an Elmore Leonard novel: one guy says “Did you know once every 7 seconds a woman gets beaten in the US?” and the other replies “Hard to believe so many women get out of line.”
Also an appeal to emotion. He didn’t beat her, as you said. He trashed her stuff and told her a few things. Probably all drunk. Definitely all regrettable actions. But this isn’t Elmore Leonard’s world. If anything she is getting the benefit of the doubt more than Josh.
Similarly, while Josh is an old freshman, he’s still a college freshman. Let’s not assume that his decisions now are indicative of his adult character.
I wasn’t talking about his character, I was talking about that one action. Not normal, not a “mistake”.
The reason I bring up his character is that much of our understanding of the facts is cemented together with speculation. And if we are going to speculate, his character appears to be something we are familiar with to some degree.
Let’s look at this through the lens of the current times.
That sentence scares me. More relativism - and worse, graver conflict among everyone concerning acceptable behavior. We who have a common bond here can’t even agree that what JJ did was wrong, and wrong enough to be brought before a judge?
So first, we can agree what he did was wrong. Probably alcohol involved. Dumb. Rash. Totally agree. But in terms of relativism, I would argue that since the dawn of human thought, societally acceptable behavior has been in flux. To assume that one generations interpretation is the correct one would not only be to deny future interpretation but also all those that came before it, would it not? Is it so bad to possibly consider the female participant in this scenario to be simply person A and the male accused of vandalism to be person B?
You didn’t answer my question: was JJ’s treatment by the court too harsh for you?
I don’t think so. He’s fine. I’m sure it put a scare into him with lesser stakes as HEM said. Maybe a good thing.
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If Josh had done that to my sister I would have got some buddies together and kicked his ass…with baseball bats.
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Jackson was acknowledged his adjustment to the NBA will go beyond X’s and O’s. “I have been taking an anger management course,” Jackson said. “I’m just wrapping it up right now. It’s just something that I had to do. I learned from the mistake I made. I’m making it through it.” What did he learn? “One of the biggest things I got out of it was just to worry about the things I can control and not to worry about the things that I can’t,” Jackson said. “It sounds so simple. But I went home and thought about that a lot and it made huge amount of sense to me. There’s a lot of things in this world that we cannot control. But yet it frustrates you. We can’t worry about them too much.”
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Me thinks Boston likes Tatum better. I’m afraid we are about to watch JJ slip to pick 6. And get drafted by anyone willing to trade up with Orlando to get him. Phoenix is in position to pull of the biggest coup and get both JJ and Isaac if they play their cards exactly right. Hold D’Aaron Fox out for bidding. Forcing the Kings to trade with their 5th and 10th picks. Suns draft either JJ or Isaac. Whoever they think Orlando likes better. Then trade that 10th pick, 32nd pick and either Ulis or Knight for the 6th pick and get the other one. Would make Phoenix scary, young and as athletic as any other team. Almost hope this comes true. Phoneix would be a contender in 2 years.
- PG - Bledsoe
- SG - Booker
- SF - JJ
- PF - TJ Warren
- C - Len
Bench:
- Isaac
- Chriss
- Knight
- Chandler
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ESPN saying Bulls and Knicks are after JJ.
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On ESPN radio yesterday (I can’t remember whom) they said Josh was the most scrutinized pick due to his dumbass mistakes at KU. If he hadn’t been considered of high character coming out of High School that he would be majorly penalized.
You earn your reputation, I hope he can clean his back up.
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@Kcmatt7 Suns were also looking at DeAndre Jordan for Chandler plus a draft pick but balked at giving up a pick.
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@approxinfinity Suns should have gone for Howard. I think the entire league would have gone after Howard if they knew how cheap he would be.
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Well in my up bringing I’ve seen women that would rattle your teeth. Hey I’m not condoning violence against women. Yet trying to paint JJ as a women beater is weak. He kicked a car door. Geez dude.
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DoubleDD said:
Well in my up bringing I’ve seen women that would rattle your teeth. Hey I’m not condoning violence against women. Yet trying to paint JJ as a women beater is weak. He kicked a car door. Geez dude.
you are right. Its Vick who’s the woman beater
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The argument isn’t whether or not you think JJ is a good person. The argument is if you want to invest millions of dollars into a guy who was in two police altercations in the last year.
There are players who have no police altercations their college career that people think are questionable off the court. A kid from Detroit with two altercations? People are going to be skeptical, and rightfully so.
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Hold on just a second…
Police altercation appears to imply that he had an altercation with police officers which as we know is not the case.
He had two incident that eventually involved the Police. Lets be clear that in the first one at the night club’s parking lot, he was charged only with criminal damage to property and NOT with assault which would have been the case if he made threats that made the woman in question feel in danger.
The second involved a hit and run, which is something that happens all the time. I have personally had my car hit a few times at parking lots and hardly ever anyone left any information. One time in Lawrence at an event, my car got hit and there were several witnesses and the lady was told to leave a note with her phone number, which she did, but one of the witnesses was suspicious and got her tags as well. As it turned out, the phone number she left was wrong and when the Police checked the tags it turned out to be the wife of the Lawrence City Attorney. The Police contacted her and she claimed she transposed a couple of numbers on the number she left by mistake…right. With all the surveillance cameras around, it is now more difficult to get away with it and Josh made a bone headed mistake and got caught.
While the first incident is very serious, the second is just one level up from a traffic ticket and not really that big of a deal.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
in the first one at the night club’s parking lot, he was charged only with criminal damage to property and NOT with assault which would have been the case if he made threats that made the woman in question feel in danger.
I’m willing to accept that, but I imagine myself in a car being kicked and damaged by several athletic young males and I imagine myself in danger.
So a verbal threat is assault but physically damaging the car I am in is not? Me no understand…
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@ParisHawk Assault involves bodily harm or the threat of bodily harm. Kicking a car is not harming someone physically or threatening them physically.
Can we also stop pretending like this is a one way incident with Josh doing everything and Calvert doing nothing wrong. She was the instigator in this event and a big part of why She’s no longer apart of the women’s team.
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Assault does not require physical contact. If he threatened her to the point that she felt unsafe, even when he physically did not touch her, he would have been charged with assault, if he touched her as well assault and battery.
Obviously the Police/prosecutors felt that whatever he said to her did not raise to the level of assault and she and her companion in her car were not at any time in danger and hence the lone charge of criminal damage to property.
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Um it wasn’t several male athletes? Come on man. Don’t try to gloss over the facts of the case.
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Mr Calvert didn’t seem to concerned for her well-being. After calling LJW and being shut down, the Star was thrilled to post all his accusations. His interest was strictly monetary. Finally, SZ spoke up for KU and told the Calverts if they would sign the waiver KU could discuss this in the open. Not another peep! Girl Calvert is transfering at semester. There is so much more to this story than we know. If I had a daughter that had been hit, kicked, beat or abused in any way, something would have been done about it and I would have pulled her out. If she was afraid while she was in the car, she had options, honk the horn, back over them, call 911. Keep in mind she had a hit an run earlier, and she wasnt allowed to go in other dorms or housing on campus. From just reading the reports, sounds like she needs to keep her mouth shut too. Really wished she would have signed the waiver!
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@ParisHawk Assault involves bodily harm or the threat of bodily harm. Kicking a car is not harming someone physically or threatening them physically.
OK, I accept that, thanks.
Can we also stop pretending like this is a one way incident with Josh doing everything and Calvert doing nothing wrong. She was the instigator in this event and a big part of why She’s no longer apart of the women’s team.
Who is “we”? I never pretended Calvert did nothing wrong. I did say that was no excuse. Difference.
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DoubleDD said:
Um it wasn’t several male athletes? Come on man. Don’t try to gloss over the facts of the case.
I didn’t say several male athletes. I said several athletic young males. The police report stated several people damaged the car. I did assume they were all male and that there were no 90-pound weaklings. That is not “glossing over the facts of the case”.
I am really surprised by some of the reactions here. The guy did wrong. There was nothing wrong with him being charged and brought before a court, and there was nothing wrong with the treatment he received in court.
Did the judge make any excuses for him? If not, why should I?
Anyone who thinks the police or the judge went too far, say why.
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I think it’s time to pull out the dead horse image again.
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KUSTEVE said:
I think it’s time to pull out the dead horse image again.
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I’m ready for the good old times, back when I believed all of KU’s players to be of high character.
Man, I’d rather be talking about Mason than Jackson. That dude is a stud and a seemingly great guy.
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@HawksWin Isn’t tonight when the draft is? - - I was thinking it was tonight? - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@ParisHawk Of course, you are correct. I’m never surprised though by these sorts of rationalizations and attempts at minimization. It’s expected when it comes to KU players – interesting, most of the time the good ones. If it’s someone that disappoints, like Brannen Greene or Conner Frankamp, some who have rationalized JJ’s conduct (like @Crimsonorblue22) cast them as the devil. Complete hypocrisy.
I always love the “there is much more to this story than we know.” Ok. That means the writer of that quote doesn’t know, but will speculate that there is more – implying of course that the additional information that the writer does not know favors JJ. That’s just garbage. The same writer will speculate, and has, that there is much more to the story regarding BG or CF, implying there is more negative information. Solely because of ones like or dislike of a particular player. There is always info we don’t know. It’s just interesting how that is treated.
But this case is exactly what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. What we supposedly don’t know, I’m sure the prosecutor did know. The prosecutor could have charged this as an assault if he/she felt it met the burden. And likely, because the lady was inside of a big piece of steel (the car) and the windows weren’t busted out and/or JJ didn’t try to open the door, the prosecutor passed on that charge.
JJ’s conduct stands alone. Period.
The further folly here, as highlighted in @Texas-Hawk-10’s comment, that some can’t get through their heads, is that NO ONE IS PRETENDING THIS IS A ONE WAY INCIDENT. No one. It’s a complete strawman argument. It’s the type of argument that is intended, purposefully, to distract and CREATE a narrative that is simply untrue. How hard is this?
@Texas-Hawk-10, further, your definition of assault in Kansas is partially wrong. You suggest that an “Assault involves bodily harm or …” That is incorrect. What you put after your “or” is correct – threatening them. An assault in Kansas is “knowingly placing another person in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily harm.” It’s before bodily harm. So, if someone randomly hits someone in the back of the head with a fist, most think the person was assaulted. Common usage, yes. Legally in Kansas, no. That is a battery and because the person had no immediate apprehension, then there is no “assault”.
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@JayHawkFanToo I stand by my statement. No matter how petty they are, he had two police “issues”. Is that better?
So now you have to wonder what happens to a kid like that after you give him millions of dollars and even more fame. That is my point. Idgaf what he was ultimately charged with. He went after a woman in some form and he performed a hit and run. Only fact that matter is he was guilty of two crimes that ARE above a traffic violation. And that is an issue. Period.
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looks like Jackson could slide to 5 to the Kings. Career suicide if that happens
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@BeddieKU23 Who do you think the Suns take at 4?
Suns will trade that pick before they give JJ to the Kings.
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Kcmatt7 said:
He went after a woman in some form and he performed a hit and run. Only fact that matter is he was guilty of two crimes that ARE above a traffic violation. And that is an issue. Period.
He did not go after the woman, he hit her car and this is why he was not charged with assault…I believe than under our legal system, we still have the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, tight?
He did not “perform” a hit and run, he accidentally hit a car while backing up from a parking spot at a KU parking lot, something that probably happens multiple times a day at private parking lots at KU. I am not sure the Police was involved in this incident and probably Campus Police (not the real Police) got involved and the issue resolved; typically, Police does not get involved in incident on private property unless there are injuries. Do you have information that the City Police (real Police) was ever involved?
I don’t understand why you are trying to make his actions look worse than they are. We all agree that both incidents were bad but nothing earth shattering. The first one more serious but the second just above the level of a traffic ticket.
Again, none of us condone or minimize what he did but we do not need to make it worse that it is either. Just my opinion.
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@JayHawkFanToo I’m not making him look any worse. And innocent until proven guilty doesn’t mean a damn thing to me right now if I’m a GM investing millions. In fact, I probably take the approach that he is guilty of anything said just to be cautious. Which is the point I have made which you continue to ignore.
People applying for jobs don’t get hired for something as small as posting things on the internet. Much less actually breaking the law. Go and try to get a good job with two misdemeanors on your record in the last year and tell me how that goes.
Is someone with two misdemeanors in the last 7 months someone you would 100% feel confident giving $5M guaranteed ever year for 3 years to?
That is the point I am making that you are ignoring. I don’t care if JJ volunteers every Sunday at a soup kitchen after church where he is a youth minister for underprivileged children missing a leg. He still committed two crimes int he past 7 months and that raises character questions no matter who you are. And that scrutiny only multiplies when you are talking about giving someone $15M.
We obviously have a difference of opinion on the crimes. Which is why I really avoided talking about them in great detail. But again, for a 3rd time in this post, my point is that JJ is still a risky pick due to the fact he DID commit two crimes. If you have anything that would be an argument contrary to my belief that GMs are in fact worried about JJ’s character issues, please list those. Another post minimizing his crimes based on technicalities is not what I am asking for, just to be clear. Simply, whether or not you would feel comfortable giving someone with two misdemeanors $15M in guaranteed money.
