Welcome Back Devonte
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@jaybate-1.0 I would love for you to explain “pretty clearly hyper extended”. “Pretty clearly” indicates a “no doubt about it, everyone agrees on it” idea or concept. It is normal for teams to force right handed guys left to make them prove they can be effective with it, as well as to force them outside of the lane, How often have we heard over the years from the announcers “They need to force him to go left”. Yet after I watched it again I didn’t see any blatant example of forcing Devonte to go left outside of the situations I just described. Before you said his elbow injury is the reason for his poor shooting. Now he has had some nice shooting games recently. I rewatched the game and don’t see the things you are seeing. Please provide points of reference that clearly show and identify an injury,
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@HawkChamp Jaybate stayed at a holiday inn!
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See I knew this thread would bring out the mixed emotions about Devonte Graham and his future.
The way he played yesterday was more in line with what we expect from him . With how deep the draft is he’s not likely to be a 1st round pick unless this team makes it far into March and he has some standout games.
Most of this fan-base (or at least it seemed the majority) thought Diallo, Greene, & Selden weren’t ready last year and yet they are not here anymore are they? No guarantee’s for any of them, just a dream and they all took it. Whatever our opinion of him for the NBA means nothing really, he either stays or goes. He’s going to be 22 soon in a league that de-values age… His time is ticking now.
Regardless this thread was to give him some kudos for having a strong game yesterday. Tuesday we go to Oklahoma where he had arguably his best game of his career last year. We’ll see if he can continue giving this team what it needs. When he is playing at a high level there isn’t many teams that can beat this KU squad
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Close your eyes.
Kick back.
Dream basketball.
Envision Devonte bringing up the ball, assessing the defense, controlling the tempo, calling out signals, pointing fingers and starting the offense. All his theatrics in use every play.
That’s what I want to see. And that is his ticket to the big league. And that is one huge asset we are missing out on because we don’t have someone specifically in charge. No definite leadership. I fear it is going to cost us again this year. The old words of “leading by committee” and “he leads by his actions” are just excuses for not having a real leader. Someone needs to stand up on this team and lead it. Devonte is the right guy to do it. It is in his DNA.
I fear another lost March. I fear everyone pointing fingers in the wrong places; a bad ref call, cold shooting, turnovers…
There are so few teams that really have a leader. It was enough to take WSU to the Final Four a few years ago with all their juco players.
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@drgnslayr you might be right about the team not having a leader. You mentioned common symptoms of a March loss - bad calls cant be controlled but our play should not be determined by the zebras. Turnovers and missed shots can certainly hurt even if we dont have a leader or floor general.
Most of Devonte’s issue is plain standing around and being a spectator. This team is so much better when he is active and looking to make plays.
Does not having a vocal leader affect how we play in March? Probably. But if Devonte decides he doesnt want to be that guy or is unaware of the importance of such a person and that he is the man for the job, then there isnt anything anyone can do about that. We just have to hope that everyone on the team is locked in to what they need to do and accomplish. That is the only thing that can counteract the lack of a floor leader.
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Are you fecal mattering me? Of course you are. All they did was give him his left the whole second half.
Why the flip does one wear lingerie on one’s left elbow, but not on one’s right? Do elbow pads really require coverage from arm pit to mid forearm? I don’t think so. Wait! Maybe one wears it on one’s left instead of one’s right, because one has asymmetric circulation and one is trying to balance out the blood flow to each arm. Hmmm, seems a long shot. Do you think its fun to wear that lingerie? I suspect you don’t wear it if you don’t need it for some significant and often acute issue. I doubt the guys wear it because they are superstitious, but I suppose anything is possible. Protection against bug bites? Maybe, if the KSU experimental labs have unleashed a new Goliath winter mosquito, but again, that seems to stretch credulity a bit. I’m going to sit tight with my recollection here. I’m not watching the TTech game again and marking the time, because you can’t see it. If you watched the second half, it was an every possession thing; that’s what I saw every possession. If you didn’t, then me marking every possession isn’t going to change much is it?
Next, let’s now proceed back down to the leg. Watch the guy walk and slide the second half. He walks like one leg is longer than the other during close ups during breaks in play. Watch him when he walks to the bench for a time out, or to the foul line. Do you recall that last season? I don’t. Why does someone walk like one leg is a little longer than the other? There are a number of possible reasons. He could be trying to fool jaybate 1.0 into thinking he is injured, but that seems a stretch to me. The most likely reason is he is wearing an orthotic in one shoe and not the other. You can cover up the gimp from the lingerie, by gutting it out. It only shows when you are sliding hard to the direction your weak leg is leading toward. And even then you can do a pretty good job of concealing it, if the coach lets you switch off a lot of the time. But one leg longer than the other? Ah, now that’s something the shoe itself. Once in awhile it can be a disk compressed asymmetrically and/or some arthritis in an irritated joint; that results in a little hitch in the git-along, too.
But for the love of all that is logical, the guy that last year was one of the most explosive guards I’ve seen at KU, now struggles to clear the floor, shoots those 3-inch hop sets shots that all other KU guards shoot when they get bad wheels, and you want to argue over whether a guys left arm is hurt when he is wearing lingerie on it? Good lord, what does he need to do? Wear high viz yellow lingerie with a red cross arm patch and a head band with ketchup on it?
I feel like I’m mastering the obvious here regarding DG.
Are you one of those that was sure Landen had magically forgotten how to play the post after running a string of double doubles down the stretch, or did you put two and tow together and say, “Hey, Self is under-reporting again! Landen doesn’t just have a sore foot. Why, Landen is wearing a boot and on top of that Landen can barely raise his arms over his head. Hey, Landen must have TWO injuries and Self is masking the injury for the ten thousandth time at KU!”
Hey, this isn’t pulling teeth.
This is just watching people walk, watching the way defenders guard them, watching how high they jump most of the time, compare it to the prior year when they were supposedly healthy and explosive, and compare shooting percentages and scoring last year and this year, during the same recent stretch that Devonte’s game has fallen off.
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And cut in on Fred Astaire to dance with Marjorie Reynolds, or was it Virginia Dale?
Damn, I wish I had lived back then. I would have cut a mean flipping rug with women that could dance like that.
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I’m very confident on reading injuries in players.
I’m very confident in you on reading leadership issues in teams.
But I’ve gotta say that I don’t see a leadership issue on the team.
What I see is the injury wipe out of Doke and the de-hab (instead of re-hab) of Coleby; this wipes out KU’s ability to get big and stay big inside at 4 and 5, which Self was clearly planning to be able to do, even with his emphasis on 4-1. There are lots of teams where the matchup calls for going big for big at the 4 and 5, as well stressing the opponent’s twin bigs with small ball for stretches. Now Self cannot go big at 4 and 5 except for brief stints. Now Self has to get Josh Jackson a lot of work against big 4s ASAP. As a result, everyone is feeding Josh and standing around while he learns to player 4-1 against a prison body 4. Self is using this 4 game stretch against what I call “Carp” opponents–the bottom feeders that will finish 6th and below, to really give Josh some work in the games. Frank and Devonte are just being asked to do enough to keep us from losing games to the Carp, while Josh figures out how to score and guard and board against prison body 4s. This makes Frank and Devonte appear a lot less energetic and sharp. Down the stretch of the TTech game, Self was clearly ordering Frank and Devonte to let Josh practice dribbling across the midcourt and getting the feel of starting the chops right and chops left. The only thing Self isn’t preparing Josh for is subbing for Self as head coach on the nights Self has the flu.
Next, Self is non-reporting Devonte’s injury riddled body. The guy walks like one leg is shorter than the other. The guy can’t get over a screen on a slide right to left. The guy switches in an obviously un-Selfian way (i.e., no Self team switches against Carp teams; that is unheard of). The guy doesn’t pressure on-ball like he used to do. The guy doesn’t get up like he used to. The guy is shooting half the percentages he used to shoot, and even vs. TTech when he shoots it a little better because he starts taking the 3" hopping jump shot that KU’s perimeter guys resort to when playing injured, DG still didn’t look sharp. Further, the guy isn’t an ambidextrous threat as he used to be. Defenders are putting a flipping dressage saddle on his right hand and riding it to force DG to his left and DG isn’t making them pay, as he used to, when they over played him either way.
Next, Self has decided he has to get Vick a lot of work, because DG could go down at any minute, Svi still doesn’t seem consistent in his shooting, and because he basically is moving Josh to the 4 for most of the game. That in turn means that Self has to get Svi some work against prison bodies at the 4, because there will be games when Josh gets fouled up and Svi will have to log significant minutes vs. the PB4s.
I think the issue above, plus dead legs from heavy practicing for a couple games prior to TTech, explain the team’s lackluster play recently, after a stretch of the best play I have seen a KU team string together in several years.
I expect Frank can reassert and lead decisively, when asked.
It appears Devonte can to, if he were to get a leg and arm healthy.
I’m pretty optimistic about Josh being able to master this force feed learning.
I feel like Vick can step it up a little.
Landen is manning up to his starting 5 role, and Bragg for the first time this game made me think he will start getting it done 3-4 games from now.
What does all of this mean? It means one heck of a lot is hanging on DG getting well and Josh learning to love playing prison body 4s.
As I said, I have some optimism about Josh.
But regarding DG, this little voice in the back of my noggin keeps saying, “Self never totally non-reports someone, unless Self is sure the player won’t get well any time during the season.” Tyrel Reed during his last KU season comes to mind. Reed played operable and un-reported much of his last season, because Self HAD to play him. I fear we are in that predicament again with DG. He is too important not to play. But it may appear to Self that DG isn’t going to get well. So: he appears to have to play through unreported.
Bad news, if it were to prove true.
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@jaybate-1.0 I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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For now, and then DG will resolve this in your favor, or mine, as the season wears on.
Rock Chalk to you.
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I could be way out in left field here, but I wonder if Devonte isn’t trying to help Frank get NPOY or first-team All-American? He seems to want to defer a little bit.
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Hopefully all fiction, no malice
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@jaybate-1.0 He’s hurt. Yet, he’s the missing link- he is what makes us elite when he is 100%.
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@dylans said:
Hopefully all fiction, no malice.
@jaybate-1.0 hasn’t used this phrase in months, I believe, and perhaps since last season! So, does that mean he is now posting only non-fiction? Or that he posts with malice?
Inquiring minds want to know!!!
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Are we not considering Frank our leader? he’s doing an excellent job of running the team and scoring in my opinion.
Lately this team isn’t running many sets that require the PG to break down the defense in order to set up a play. I see a lot of weave action and dribble drive motion going on where our 5 guards are making a play or dumping it in the lane. I don’t know if you agree but our offense hasn’t looked that difficult to defend in theory it’s just the guys are so good at scoring that we are getting the advantage from our players just being better then the opponent.
I like the idea that Devonte would be our leader, but why hasn’t he assumed the role if it’s there to take? Deferring? Maybe he feels that with Frank being the senior he’s content being the co-leader. If he wanted that role full time he could have it by coming back next year.
As far as your fear of losing in March, we all have it and I’m not sure what my specific fear is at this point but it more lies in foul trouble especially Josh and our inability to get enough production in the post to balance out our 5 guard attack. I’m afraid a team will scheme to bait us into feeding the post more than we need to and lose sight of our strength.
Good discussion!
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There a nice article on KU sports about DG
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Frank is amazing. I think he leads by example.
I just believe we need someone demonstrative. Frank shows zero of that. He hardly even cracks a smile after a big play.
It is about communication. When your guys are softening up you give them a demonstrative kick.
I don’t see us winning in March without that. Visible leadership. An icon.
I don’t want this to seem like a bash on Frank. I adore Frank’s play. Everything except the demonstrative part. Even Bill makes fun about him having a stone face.
The game is still largely about emotion. We only have to look back to last year and see the proof with Villanova. They are well-coached… but what pushed them over the edge was their emotions. Playing with the right level of emotion that kept them in the groove.
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@drgnslayr ll showed some leadership skills by standing up for Frank. I think DG is a leader among the guards.
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@jaybate-1.0 Why is everyone always perpetually hurt?
Maybe your just a glass half empty kind of guy.
Look people get nicked up during a season, its sports.
When I stub my toe in the morning and hop one foot and then favor my tender toesie throughout the day, does that mean I am injured?
There is nothing structurally damaged with my toe, but its sore, no biggie, I’ll get over it.I think its kind of comical the way you look for injuries. During the last game Devonte had maybe one of his most athletic dunks of the year. He GOT UP! He had so much air that he didn’t have to use two hands to dunk it. He switched it to one hand, cocked it back and then threw it down with authority.
People are rarely in 100% health throughout the season. This does not mean they have serious injuries. That is why grit and toughness is important in sports. It allows people to play threw the pain and perform even when they are sore that day. Look I am not denying that people get injured, but I would never sit back on my couch and causally act like i am the team doctor making my diagnoses from watching them on TV.
If I was to look into my magic crystal orb, I would see Devonte playing the next game, and the next game and the games in March and games in the NBA. I really don’t see the value in your persistent fear mongering of injuries on every player every season. It would be nice to find out who in your eyes is not injured?
Its good thing you didn’t own race horses. I imagine everyone of them that lost would have been led behind the barn and put out of their misery.
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And maybe this all needs to develop “organically.” Maybe this is all just a process that will finalize with Devonte becoming more animated and communicating with his teammates.
I hate it when we lose. But maybe we need a loss or two and more struggle to find ways of becoming better.
I think this team has toughness… has the skills… has the pieces needed for March. I think we just need to create the right synergy to handle any situation (like coming from behind on the road).
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If Devonte was on any other team but Kansas most of us wouldn’t be able to stand him. The guy takes some god awful shots, misses a ton, and when he makes one he runs around like he is a world beater. He is also typical of an immature player where his defensive intensity only picks up after a good offensive play.
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@RockChalkRedlock Your last big contribution on a similar topic was a couple of months ago when you also were not willing to attribute Landen’s difficulties to an injury. You thought his boot was irrelevant. You said nothing when his oblique injury was revealed.
You called LL a “liability” and hoped we would not rely much on him. Any further thoughts, or do you concede that sometimes injuries do hamper players?
Now, I am not agreeing with @jaybate-1.0 here as to a major impediment. I just think DG was banged up and has come through it mostly. Remember how many times he was on the sideline working out cramps? Limping after that major knee-knock a couple weeks ago?
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Good post.
“People are rarely in 100% health throughout the season.”
I’d probably go further and say NO ONE is 100% healthy at this level of competition throughout the season. Not even walk-ons.
Playing “hurt” is part of the game. By the end of our season pretty much all our guys will need a break to heal.
One big issue is that players compound the number of “injuries” in their bodies throughout the year and having so many can debilitate their performance when it counts most, in March. We’ve seen this in Frank in past years.
Our largest concerned area now is with our post guys. We can’t really afford to lose Landen or Carlton.
There is no question (concerning Devonte) that he has been dealing with a few issues this year relating to his health. Probably his biggest issue is cramping. That is a serious issue. Sensitivity to cramping relates to both lifestyle and genetics. Certain players are more-likely than others to face the problems of cramping. Devonte may be one of those players because it has been happening in a pattern.
This is something that should be addressed with a sports physician and probably a dietician. I’m not certain, but I think there was a blurp out there from our basketball program mentioning Devonte being treated for this in hopes to prevent further issues. If anyone knows, please post it.
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@mayjay ll admitted he got sick of the boot and quit wearing it and then he was fine. He walked all over the island w/it. Mental for him. The oblique strain was strange to me, injured one game fine the next. DG on the knee knock, knee hurts bad at the time but usually not a game changer. DG seems to have the cramps under control, they are playing high minutes especially if jj and Svi get in foul trouble. I guess we’ll find out if they have surgery after the season.
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@BigBad I love DG!
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I think we have seen a more emotional frank this year then at any point in his 4 years. Last year we had a quiet leader in Perry, this year we have stone face frank. But the guys around frank this year are an emotional bunch especially Josh and Devonte who can help this team get where it needs to go. We won’t know what emotions we will get from Frank until the games are here. I know we are already starting to shift our thoughts to the tourney and we still have 15 conference games to go. It’s clear the evolution of this team isnt nearly complete which is a great thing.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I think the oblique strain completely explained LL’s inability to get his arms up for, and to hold onto, passes above his waist. He couldn’t finish at the rim. Now he can. His foot seems better–he wasn’t jumping, and now he is.
And all muscle strain and soft tissue injuries result in varying levels of pain, and inconsistent ability to perform. Anyone with a quadriceps or hamstring pull knows that! I had a shoulder separation years ago. Some days I could not raise my arm, on other days I was playing squash. (Until the orthopod told me to knock it off.)
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@mayjay he recovered in less than a week
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@mayjay Thanks for being the message board watch dog.
I am glad my comments had such a lasting impact they needed to be referenced.
I will stand behind my comments because they were relevant. My biggest concern regarding Landen has nothing to do with his legs or obliques; its his hands. He has struggled with shooting and also securing the ball when he is in the paint; the ball gets poked out a lot. Its never really been injuries that has held him back, that’s just an easy scapegoat for games he under performs. What I said was justified and two months ago fans did have concern, but with the injury to Azubuike that changed everything. Really Azubuike’s injury was just what Landen needed. The team has such a short bench on big men that Landen had to pick up his game. He has responded big time and I couldn’t be more delighted to see him play with that fire we didn’t see at the start of the season.
Attitude is everything, it is the real difference maker, not sore obliques, nagging cramps, or bone bruises. Because Devonte hasn’t been locked in a few games doesn’t scream injury. Do you remember Wiggins biggest flaw his one season here? It was his lack of focus to stay plugged in on offense. That was not because of physical injuries, it was mental. Look at him now. A few years has past and he is doing great in the NBA because he has improved that aspect of his game.
Devonte just needs Focus, not a Physician.
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@RockChalkRedlock said:
Devonte just needs Focus
I will agree with you–example being focus was clearly an issue on the 10 second call. He would have taken at least 12 seconds to get over the line at the pace he was at.
I wasn’t censuring you on LL, just looking to see if over time your conclusion about LL’s value had changed once injuries were known. I was willing to go with the coach’s explanation that he was hampered by injuries early on. Apparently you were not.
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And these are just my opinions…
I can’t say I totally understand the chemistry on this team. It may work out fine. But from a historic perspective, I think it is extremely valuable to have someone loud and demonstrative calling the shots as a leader and staying on guys to perform at their best.
Not even tackling our struggles on defense… Looking at offense, I think we are in for a huge reality check soon. I think we have been masking the overall health of our offense because we have such stud scorers that have continually bailed us out.
Look at our assist numbers. They are okay, but more or less middle of the pack type numbers. If you look at the volume of scoring we are putting up, our assist numbers should be much higher. I don’t take that as a complete negative though, because in past years I sometimes thought our offense had too many assists. We were too “team offense” oriented, creating a crutch of individual players to push their limits in an alpha-dog situation of one-on-one.
Now we have several players not afraid to take their man on in order to score. But are we also masking inefficiencies in our offense? I think so. It will come out when we finally play a tougher opponent… some day.
We definitely did not play with dominance in our first 3 games.
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I still kind of wonder if Devonte has lifestyle issues negatively impacting his court performances.
I wonder if he is eating/drinking properly, and sleeping right, too.
That can easily explain his issues with leg cramps. That is just the first sign. If his physical status is lower, good chance it is impacting his mental side, too… (ie focus)
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@jaybate-1.0 He wore that same thing last year. Guys at the freaking rec wear them. It looks “cool” and it feel comfortable to wear the “lingerie.” He even wore the damn arm band all the way back at Brewster on his left arm. TRob wore them on both arms. Doubt he did it because he hyper extended both elbows.
http://www.collegehoophits.com/blog/devonte-graham-is-a-jayhawk
Let’s be real. He is scoring more PPG. Has more SPG. Has more ASP. Is shooting a better percentage from the floor even though he is taking more shots and shooting worse from 3. A better percentage from free throw line. And he is still shooting a very respectable 38% from the arc. DG is healthy.
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I think I put Devonte at a higher standard than most fans do.
I expect total greatness from Devonte every game. I see him as the overall most-gifted player we have.
But I get frustrated with him just like I did with Wayne Selden. Wayne just seemed to be too laid back most of the time and would just kick in the afterburners for certain games or certain situations. There was no way to count on that and often, in big games, it wasn’t there. That is not the right recipe for winning out in March.
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@Kcmatt7 exactly. It felt like a wild goose chase for injuries. Nothing is wrong with him
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@RockChalkRedlock excellent example of Devontes dunk. He is fine
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“But I’ve gotta say that I don’t see a leadership issue on the team.”
So in March, when we are down by 8 with 3 minutes left in the game, do you see a player stepping up and giving the entire team a pep rally?
I don’t think we need a babysitter at PG. But I know how valuable it is to have someone out there leading, directing, motivating, pushing the right tempo.
Actually… just thinking of the last item, tempo, we are already lacking leadership to try to control tempo. Even Fran has been mentioning it about our games. We are playing home games against inferior competition and we let them control tempo. That is a leadership issue.
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@drgnslayr I think in March if the team needs a come-to-Jesus meeting, seniors Frank and Landen will definitely step right up. And it will have far more impact because they are not the constant talkers now.
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@mayjay great point. We saw the senior leadership of the Arch and Ochefu last year. We need that this year and we need Devonte to step up and not be a spectator like what he normally does.
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@et al,
My prediction remains: once Self spends the next two games versus weak opponents giving Josh as much work on scoring and running the offense as he can, the team we saw earlier this season run efficiently and authoritatively by Frank Mason.
FRANK IS APPARENTLY THE MOST EXPERIENCED AND SKILLED POINT GUARD RUNNING A TOP 5 team in D1.
Frank will drive the car.
The looming question is: will Devonte’s injuries sideline him and force Vick into a role requiring sudden productivity.
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Oh, yes, I’ve been using the line quite a bit. Alas, the mind control techniques of the election used by both candidates, plus the USA national security state, plus the national security states of Russia, China and Israel, have just destroyed your and everyone else’s senses of time!!!
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9 times out of 10 I’m right about the injuries.
Read the season stats to reassure yourself that his recent stats don’t matter.
I can wait.
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It is hilarious how people get stressed out by talk of injuries. It forces them to think and thinking hurts almost as much as injuries!
I never think about injuries until a guy who has proved he can do it suddenly stops doing it and keeps not getting it done.
It’s scary to think about injuries, because it raises a lot of uncertainty and fans hate uncertainty!
You’re so annoyed right now you can’t even remember that many, many injuries occur EVERY season. Having Landen, Devonte and Doke injured is just about par for the course. And you can bet there are more guys “nicked up” we don’t recognize…yet.
Your whining at me about me mentioning injuries suggests how much denial about injuries you employ to get through seasons.
Don’t worry about talking about the injuries. They happen and often and masking them and getting guys to “play through” is one of Self’s great abilities.
All sports at a high level involve lots of injuries.
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@jaybate-1.0 While mind control is fun, my lack of recall just might have had more to do with Rose Mary Woods’ erasure of 9 months of KUBuckets data…
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I will guess the younger posters have no clue who RoseMary Woods was…
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@jaybate-1.0 of course, when you attribute everything to injuries you are bound to get a couple right.
Dude, we all know guys get nicked up. I did too as a player. Even Captain Obvious knows that.
No one is getting stressed out. What we can’t understand is why you don’t provide specific instances to prove your point about something as specific as a “pretty clearly hyperextended elbow”. If you see something, give us a minute marker.
No one minds you suggesting it is an injury. Again, the problem is no one else sees what you see and when we ask for proof, you say we are mad and upset. You clearly avoid providing evidence. I won’t believe it just because someone says it.
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Has anyone else noticed that coach Self has been sitting for longer periods at a time during games? Since I recently endured similar problems, I wonder if he has a corn on his foot. Makes you wonder.
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@drgnslayr
NO-EMOTION?
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@autohawk Strained vocal cords.
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Ooh, I like the apparent Over Generalization 101 approach. It’s like you’re dusting off site destabilization and thread redirect. I thought the site had moved on from those bad old days.
Example 1: lead with false premise of ridiculous overgeneralization by @HawkChamp
“of course, when you attribute everything to injuries you are bound to get a couple right.”
You’ve been watching too much MSM.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, right?
Next.
