Welcome Back Devonte
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Graham will get a shot at the NBA. He’ll be a late 1st or 2nd round pick, but he’ll get a shot.
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Only if he continues to improve and brings his game to the level of late last season. As of now, he is not getting drafted.
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@JayHawkFanToo Graham still has over half a season left.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I hope he does, he’s a fun jayhawk!
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I agree. I have posted the exact thing before.
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Watching the game in person I thought we came out a little flat but DG and Frank did a much better job of keeping guys in front of them defensively. If TT hadn’t hit 4 more 3s than they average and we sure up the glass on defense that’s a 30 point game. I was just glad to see improvement, ik tech ain’t great but they did just beat #7 WVU.
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@BeddieKU23 If Mario Chalmers can do it, DG can too. He’s got that fire in him. Just needs to bring it every night
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Mario was better than DG and higher ranked coming out of HS. I wish DG and Frank could recreate the havoc RussRob and Mario created. That’s my dream senario. Then DG can leave a national champion too.
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@dylans Josh is better at jumping passing lanes than BRush, and Vick/Svi aren’t slouches defensively. I think we can create the havoc we had with Mario/RussRob/BRush (and Sherron) with everyone picking up their defensive aggression and focus a little bit, If we can get Frank and Devonte healthy, it would be nice to see less of those guys minutes-wise, and when they’re in, ask them to go 100% in spurts. I don’t know that they can get healthy at this point, where that could happen. And I also think Frank is locked in on chasing the Wooden Award, which is more about points and being the floor general, which means staying on the court as much as possible.
I wonder how minutes usage looks over careers… lets see:
Mario:
2005–06 33 games 26mpg 2.7 spg
2006–07 38 games 29.2 mpg 2.6 spg
2007–08 39 games 30.0 mpg 2.5 spg
Robinson played 134 games (107 starts) while averaging 7.1 points, 2.6 rebounds, 3.7 assists and 1.8 steals in 24.8 minutes per game
Frank:
2013-14 16mpg .5 spg
2014-15 33.5mpg 1.4spg
2015-16 33.5mpg 1.3spg
2016-17 34.8mpg 1.3spg
Devonte:
2014-15 17.8 mpg .9spg
2015-16 32.6 mpg 1.4spg
2016-17 33.5 mpg 1.5spg
I don’t recall Mario and RussRob having major injured stretches…(?) but I think the fact that Mario never played over 30mpg in a season and RussRob averaged 24.8mpg and Frank and Devonte have both averaged 33+ over the last couple seasons is a big deal.
I don’t have the numbers on the rest of the guys, but I don’t think that’s necessary to make the case that had Self spread the minutes more on them over their college “careers” we might have been able to get more steals per game.
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@approxinfinity frank and devonte are injured? When did this happen? What is injured?
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@approxinfinity what would really have helped is if Greene would have stayed.
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@HawkChamp by “get healthy” I mean theyre worn down, and playing conservatively defensively to avoid aggravation of recurrent stuff.
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@approxinfinity ah ok. I thought I missed something. Thanks
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@HawkChamp said:
@approxinfinity what would really have helped is if Greene would have stayed.
Funny guy
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My wife brings up a good point too. What made Mario elite in spg wasnt just jumping passing lanes. It was poking the ball away with freakishly long arms. Frank and Devonte have regular arms by comparison. Josh is elite in the spg department though.
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@approxinfinity not at all being humorous. You dont think that an additional perimeter player to give Frank and Devonte an extra two minutes of rest before a tv timeout would be nice? Plus he was a good rebounder and three point shooter. His attitude was his main problem
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97 steals per season for Mario in his Soph and Jr. seasons. 50 for Frank. 55 and TBD (25 and counting) for Devonte.
They either aren’t allowed the freedom or just aren’t ball hawks. I wish they would figure out that playing D is fun as it leads to offense and frustrates the heck out of other teams. D travels too.
Inspite of this I like this years team just fine.
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@dylans the thing is, you dont have to get 5 steals a game to play stifling lock down D. Keeping the other team from driving into the lane any time they want to is what our perimeter players need to focus on. Same problem as last year.
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@dylans do you think steals are down in general due to the damn calls?
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@HawkChamp Ah I thought you were joking b/c his D was weak; thought you were saying that he wouldn’t get us any steals.
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Good positional D is crucial, you’re absolutely right, but SPGs are the devastating secret weapon. I think one begets the other. Establish rules of engagement, then violate them.
Getting steals can break an opponent. It’s how we routinely ripped off 20-2 runs with that 2007-08 team. It violates rules of engagement. It makes people question their ability to assess and deal with you, their ability to function as basketball players.
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@approxinfinity amen, That team knew when to gamble. They fed off of each other. This team is different though. I don’t think they can get away with gambles as much. They also aren’t as freakishly long.
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For the first time this season I decided to watch him closely to see what is injured. He’s doing a great job of masking it, but…
It’s one leg and it’s a thigh. He drags it just trying slide to a pick. He really can’t get over picks and that’s probably why they have been doing so much switching. Probably a pulled groin tendon. Pretty sure it was the left leg, but can t recall for sure today. This explains why he gets up some jumping on the run going off his good leg, but barely clears floor other times.
. Also, his left elbow is pretty clearly hyper extended so the opponent is massively over playing his right hand to make him go left with the injured left arm.DG needs a witch doctor badly.
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@jaybate-1.0 I would love for you to explain “pretty clearly hyper extended”. “Pretty clearly” indicates a “no doubt about it, everyone agrees on it” idea or concept. It is normal for teams to force right handed guys left to make them prove they can be effective with it, as well as to force them outside of the lane, How often have we heard over the years from the announcers “They need to force him to go left”. Yet after I watched it again I didn’t see any blatant example of forcing Devonte to go left outside of the situations I just described. Before you said his elbow injury is the reason for his poor shooting. Now he has had some nice shooting games recently. I rewatched the game and don’t see the things you are seeing. Please provide points of reference that clearly show and identify an injury,
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@HawkChamp Jaybate stayed at a holiday inn!
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See I knew this thread would bring out the mixed emotions about Devonte Graham and his future.
The way he played yesterday was more in line with what we expect from him . With how deep the draft is he’s not likely to be a 1st round pick unless this team makes it far into March and he has some standout games.
Most of this fan-base (or at least it seemed the majority) thought Diallo, Greene, & Selden weren’t ready last year and yet they are not here anymore are they? No guarantee’s for any of them, just a dream and they all took it. Whatever our opinion of him for the NBA means nothing really, he either stays or goes. He’s going to be 22 soon in a league that de-values age… His time is ticking now.
Regardless this thread was to give him some kudos for having a strong game yesterday. Tuesday we go to Oklahoma where he had arguably his best game of his career last year. We’ll see if he can continue giving this team what it needs. When he is playing at a high level there isn’t many teams that can beat this KU squad
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Close your eyes.
Kick back.
Dream basketball.
Envision Devonte bringing up the ball, assessing the defense, controlling the tempo, calling out signals, pointing fingers and starting the offense. All his theatrics in use every play.
That’s what I want to see. And that is his ticket to the big league. And that is one huge asset we are missing out on because we don’t have someone specifically in charge. No definite leadership. I fear it is going to cost us again this year. The old words of “leading by committee” and “he leads by his actions” are just excuses for not having a real leader. Someone needs to stand up on this team and lead it. Devonte is the right guy to do it. It is in his DNA.
I fear another lost March. I fear everyone pointing fingers in the wrong places; a bad ref call, cold shooting, turnovers…
There are so few teams that really have a leader. It was enough to take WSU to the Final Four a few years ago with all their juco players.
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@drgnslayr you might be right about the team not having a leader. You mentioned common symptoms of a March loss - bad calls cant be controlled but our play should not be determined by the zebras. Turnovers and missed shots can certainly hurt even if we dont have a leader or floor general.
Most of Devonte’s issue is plain standing around and being a spectator. This team is so much better when he is active and looking to make plays.
Does not having a vocal leader affect how we play in March? Probably. But if Devonte decides he doesnt want to be that guy or is unaware of the importance of such a person and that he is the man for the job, then there isnt anything anyone can do about that. We just have to hope that everyone on the team is locked in to what they need to do and accomplish. That is the only thing that can counteract the lack of a floor leader.
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Are you fecal mattering me? Of course you are. All they did was give him his left the whole second half.
Why the flip does one wear lingerie on one’s left elbow, but not on one’s right? Do elbow pads really require coverage from arm pit to mid forearm? I don’t think so. Wait! Maybe one wears it on one’s left instead of one’s right, because one has asymmetric circulation and one is trying to balance out the blood flow to each arm. Hmmm, seems a long shot. Do you think its fun to wear that lingerie? I suspect you don’t wear it if you don’t need it for some significant and often acute issue. I doubt the guys wear it because they are superstitious, but I suppose anything is possible. Protection against bug bites? Maybe, if the KSU experimental labs have unleashed a new Goliath winter mosquito, but again, that seems to stretch credulity a bit. I’m going to sit tight with my recollection here. I’m not watching the TTech game again and marking the time, because you can’t see it. If you watched the second half, it was an every possession thing; that’s what I saw every possession. If you didn’t, then me marking every possession isn’t going to change much is it?
Next, let’s now proceed back down to the leg. Watch the guy walk and slide the second half. He walks like one leg is longer than the other during close ups during breaks in play. Watch him when he walks to the bench for a time out, or to the foul line. Do you recall that last season? I don’t. Why does someone walk like one leg is a little longer than the other? There are a number of possible reasons. He could be trying to fool jaybate 1.0 into thinking he is injured, but that seems a stretch to me. The most likely reason is he is wearing an orthotic in one shoe and not the other. You can cover up the gimp from the lingerie, by gutting it out. It only shows when you are sliding hard to the direction your weak leg is leading toward. And even then you can do a pretty good job of concealing it, if the coach lets you switch off a lot of the time. But one leg longer than the other? Ah, now that’s something the shoe itself. Once in awhile it can be a disk compressed asymmetrically and/or some arthritis in an irritated joint; that results in a little hitch in the git-along, too.
But for the love of all that is logical, the guy that last year was one of the most explosive guards I’ve seen at KU, now struggles to clear the floor, shoots those 3-inch hop sets shots that all other KU guards shoot when they get bad wheels, and you want to argue over whether a guys left arm is hurt when he is wearing lingerie on it? Good lord, what does he need to do? Wear high viz yellow lingerie with a red cross arm patch and a head band with ketchup on it?
I feel like I’m mastering the obvious here regarding DG.
Are you one of those that was sure Landen had magically forgotten how to play the post after running a string of double doubles down the stretch, or did you put two and tow together and say, “Hey, Self is under-reporting again! Landen doesn’t just have a sore foot. Why, Landen is wearing a boot and on top of that Landen can barely raise his arms over his head. Hey, Landen must have TWO injuries and Self is masking the injury for the ten thousandth time at KU!”
Hey, this isn’t pulling teeth.
This is just watching people walk, watching the way defenders guard them, watching how high they jump most of the time, compare it to the prior year when they were supposedly healthy and explosive, and compare shooting percentages and scoring last year and this year, during the same recent stretch that Devonte’s game has fallen off.
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And cut in on Fred Astaire to dance with Marjorie Reynolds, or was it Virginia Dale?
Damn, I wish I had lived back then. I would have cut a mean flipping rug with women that could dance like that.
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I’m very confident on reading injuries in players.
I’m very confident in you on reading leadership issues in teams.
But I’ve gotta say that I don’t see a leadership issue on the team.
What I see is the injury wipe out of Doke and the de-hab (instead of re-hab) of Coleby; this wipes out KU’s ability to get big and stay big inside at 4 and 5, which Self was clearly planning to be able to do, even with his emphasis on 4-1. There are lots of teams where the matchup calls for going big for big at the 4 and 5, as well stressing the opponent’s twin bigs with small ball for stretches. Now Self cannot go big at 4 and 5 except for brief stints. Now Self has to get Josh Jackson a lot of work against big 4s ASAP. As a result, everyone is feeding Josh and standing around while he learns to player 4-1 against a prison body 4. Self is using this 4 game stretch against what I call “Carp” opponents–the bottom feeders that will finish 6th and below, to really give Josh some work in the games. Frank and Devonte are just being asked to do enough to keep us from losing games to the Carp, while Josh figures out how to score and guard and board against prison body 4s. This makes Frank and Devonte appear a lot less energetic and sharp. Down the stretch of the TTech game, Self was clearly ordering Frank and Devonte to let Josh practice dribbling across the midcourt and getting the feel of starting the chops right and chops left. The only thing Self isn’t preparing Josh for is subbing for Self as head coach on the nights Self has the flu.
Next, Self is non-reporting Devonte’s injury riddled body. The guy walks like one leg is shorter than the other. The guy can’t get over a screen on a slide right to left. The guy switches in an obviously un-Selfian way (i.e., no Self team switches against Carp teams; that is unheard of). The guy doesn’t pressure on-ball like he used to do. The guy doesn’t get up like he used to. The guy is shooting half the percentages he used to shoot, and even vs. TTech when he shoots it a little better because he starts taking the 3" hopping jump shot that KU’s perimeter guys resort to when playing injured, DG still didn’t look sharp. Further, the guy isn’t an ambidextrous threat as he used to be. Defenders are putting a flipping dressage saddle on his right hand and riding it to force DG to his left and DG isn’t making them pay, as he used to, when they over played him either way.
Next, Self has decided he has to get Vick a lot of work, because DG could go down at any minute, Svi still doesn’t seem consistent in his shooting, and because he basically is moving Josh to the 4 for most of the game. That in turn means that Self has to get Svi some work against prison bodies at the 4, because there will be games when Josh gets fouled up and Svi will have to log significant minutes vs. the PB4s.
I think the issue above, plus dead legs from heavy practicing for a couple games prior to TTech, explain the team’s lackluster play recently, after a stretch of the best play I have seen a KU team string together in several years.
I expect Frank can reassert and lead decisively, when asked.
It appears Devonte can to, if he were to get a leg and arm healthy.
I’m pretty optimistic about Josh being able to master this force feed learning.
I feel like Vick can step it up a little.
Landen is manning up to his starting 5 role, and Bragg for the first time this game made me think he will start getting it done 3-4 games from now.
What does all of this mean? It means one heck of a lot is hanging on DG getting well and Josh learning to love playing prison body 4s.
As I said, I have some optimism about Josh.
But regarding DG, this little voice in the back of my noggin keeps saying, “Self never totally non-reports someone, unless Self is sure the player won’t get well any time during the season.” Tyrel Reed during his last KU season comes to mind. Reed played operable and un-reported much of his last season, because Self HAD to play him. I fear we are in that predicament again with DG. He is too important not to play. But it may appear to Self that DG isn’t going to get well. So: he appears to have to play through unreported.
Bad news, if it were to prove true.
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@jaybate-1.0 I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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For now, and then DG will resolve this in your favor, or mine, as the season wears on.
Rock Chalk to you.
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I could be way out in left field here, but I wonder if Devonte isn’t trying to help Frank get NPOY or first-team All-American? He seems to want to defer a little bit.
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Hopefully all fiction, no malice
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@jaybate-1.0 He’s hurt. Yet, he’s the missing link- he is what makes us elite when he is 100%.
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@dylans said:
Hopefully all fiction, no malice.
@jaybate-1.0 hasn’t used this phrase in months, I believe, and perhaps since last season! So, does that mean he is now posting only non-fiction? Or that he posts with malice?
Inquiring minds want to know!!!
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Are we not considering Frank our leader? he’s doing an excellent job of running the team and scoring in my opinion.
Lately this team isn’t running many sets that require the PG to break down the defense in order to set up a play. I see a lot of weave action and dribble drive motion going on where our 5 guards are making a play or dumping it in the lane. I don’t know if you agree but our offense hasn’t looked that difficult to defend in theory it’s just the guys are so good at scoring that we are getting the advantage from our players just being better then the opponent.
I like the idea that Devonte would be our leader, but why hasn’t he assumed the role if it’s there to take? Deferring? Maybe he feels that with Frank being the senior he’s content being the co-leader. If he wanted that role full time he could have it by coming back next year.
As far as your fear of losing in March, we all have it and I’m not sure what my specific fear is at this point but it more lies in foul trouble especially Josh and our inability to get enough production in the post to balance out our 5 guard attack. I’m afraid a team will scheme to bait us into feeding the post more than we need to and lose sight of our strength.
Good discussion!
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There a nice article on KU sports about DG
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Frank is amazing. I think he leads by example.
I just believe we need someone demonstrative. Frank shows zero of that. He hardly even cracks a smile after a big play.
It is about communication. When your guys are softening up you give them a demonstrative kick.
I don’t see us winning in March without that. Visible leadership. An icon.
I don’t want this to seem like a bash on Frank. I adore Frank’s play. Everything except the demonstrative part. Even Bill makes fun about him having a stone face.
The game is still largely about emotion. We only have to look back to last year and see the proof with Villanova. They are well-coached… but what pushed them over the edge was their emotions. Playing with the right level of emotion that kept them in the groove.
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@drgnslayr ll showed some leadership skills by standing up for Frank. I think DG is a leader among the guards.
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@jaybate-1.0 Why is everyone always perpetually hurt?
Maybe your just a glass half empty kind of guy.
Look people get nicked up during a season, its sports.
When I stub my toe in the morning and hop one foot and then favor my tender toesie throughout the day, does that mean I am injured?
There is nothing structurally damaged with my toe, but its sore, no biggie, I’ll get over it.I think its kind of comical the way you look for injuries. During the last game Devonte had maybe one of his most athletic dunks of the year. He GOT UP! He had so much air that he didn’t have to use two hands to dunk it. He switched it to one hand, cocked it back and then threw it down with authority.
People are rarely in 100% health throughout the season. This does not mean they have serious injuries. That is why grit and toughness is important in sports. It allows people to play threw the pain and perform even when they are sore that day. Look I am not denying that people get injured, but I would never sit back on my couch and causally act like i am the team doctor making my diagnoses from watching them on TV.
If I was to look into my magic crystal orb, I would see Devonte playing the next game, and the next game and the games in March and games in the NBA. I really don’t see the value in your persistent fear mongering of injuries on every player every season. It would be nice to find out who in your eyes is not injured?
Its good thing you didn’t own race horses. I imagine everyone of them that lost would have been led behind the barn and put out of their misery.
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And maybe this all needs to develop “organically.” Maybe this is all just a process that will finalize with Devonte becoming more animated and communicating with his teammates.
I hate it when we lose. But maybe we need a loss or two and more struggle to find ways of becoming better.
I think this team has toughness… has the skills… has the pieces needed for March. I think we just need to create the right synergy to handle any situation (like coming from behind on the road).
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If Devonte was on any other team but Kansas most of us wouldn’t be able to stand him. The guy takes some god awful shots, misses a ton, and when he makes one he runs around like he is a world beater. He is also typical of an immature player where his defensive intensity only picks up after a good offensive play.
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@RockChalkRedlock Your last big contribution on a similar topic was a couple of months ago when you also were not willing to attribute Landen’s difficulties to an injury. You thought his boot was irrelevant. You said nothing when his oblique injury was revealed.
You called LL a “liability” and hoped we would not rely much on him. Any further thoughts, or do you concede that sometimes injuries do hamper players?
Now, I am not agreeing with @jaybate-1.0 here as to a major impediment. I just think DG was banged up and has come through it mostly. Remember how many times he was on the sideline working out cramps? Limping after that major knee-knock a couple weeks ago?
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Good post.
“People are rarely in 100% health throughout the season.”
I’d probably go further and say NO ONE is 100% healthy at this level of competition throughout the season. Not even walk-ons.
Playing “hurt” is part of the game. By the end of our season pretty much all our guys will need a break to heal.
One big issue is that players compound the number of “injuries” in their bodies throughout the year and having so many can debilitate their performance when it counts most, in March. We’ve seen this in Frank in past years.
Our largest concerned area now is with our post guys. We can’t really afford to lose Landen or Carlton.
There is no question (concerning Devonte) that he has been dealing with a few issues this year relating to his health. Probably his biggest issue is cramping. That is a serious issue. Sensitivity to cramping relates to both lifestyle and genetics. Certain players are more-likely than others to face the problems of cramping. Devonte may be one of those players because it has been happening in a pattern.
This is something that should be addressed with a sports physician and probably a dietician. I’m not certain, but I think there was a blurp out there from our basketball program mentioning Devonte being treated for this in hopes to prevent further issues. If anyone knows, please post it.
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@mayjay ll admitted he got sick of the boot and quit wearing it and then he was fine. He walked all over the island w/it. Mental for him. The oblique strain was strange to me, injured one game fine the next. DG on the knee knock, knee hurts bad at the time but usually not a game changer. DG seems to have the cramps under control, they are playing high minutes especially if jj and Svi get in foul trouble. I guess we’ll find out if they have surgery after the season.
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@BigBad I love DG!
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I think we have seen a more emotional frank this year then at any point in his 4 years. Last year we had a quiet leader in Perry, this year we have stone face frank. But the guys around frank this year are an emotional bunch especially Josh and Devonte who can help this team get where it needs to go. We won’t know what emotions we will get from Frank until the games are here. I know we are already starting to shift our thoughts to the tourney and we still have 15 conference games to go. It’s clear the evolution of this team isnt nearly complete which is a great thing.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I think the oblique strain completely explained LL’s inability to get his arms up for, and to hold onto, passes above his waist. He couldn’t finish at the rim. Now he can. His foot seems better–he wasn’t jumping, and now he is.
And all muscle strain and soft tissue injuries result in varying levels of pain, and inconsistent ability to perform. Anyone with a quadriceps or hamstring pull knows that! I had a shoulder separation years ago. Some days I could not raise my arm, on other days I was playing squash. (Until the orthopod told me to knock it off.)
