The Divide Has Been Drawn
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Great discussion and points by all and appreciate the tone. I’ll register my vote for big words and the historical illustrations and reference to other disciplines. Thanks @MoonwalkMafia @ParisHawk.
I don’t think we can sew up the conference championship, let alone National Championship, without seeing better production from our high ceiling players. I’m not sold on one strategy or another to get them there. But I worry that a loss of productivity from the team as a whole when we lean on the lower ceiling players has a large opportunity cost down the road.
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@Bwag Yes, and hopefully they can get more time Saturday and also play stronger and tougher. They will get better and have more of a feel for how Self wants them to play.
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First, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
I have started this basketball season supporting the idea of making Cheick and Carlton EARN their minutes instead of have them gifted to them because of potential. I still think that is the way to go and it does a lot to help keep the team focused so much on team, instead of every man for himself.
But… I also said there would come a time when our young guns earn more minutes. I think we are rapidly approaching that time. They can start getting more minutes and the upperclassmen they take minutes from shouldn’t really challenge that.
All of these games are important. Regardless what anyone in here says about our conference streak… when you go on any sports media today and they talk about Kansas basketball, they aren’t talking about our 2008 championship. They talk about the streak and what a milestone that is and then they start comparing Self and Kansas to Wooden and UCLA. You will never hear that discussion from them if we just win another national championship (or several).
I’m not against us winning another NC. I want both. But I definitely will not support a concept where we hand over the B12 championship on a lark that giving more experience to our freshmen will be the extra bit to win us a NC. Chances are… we would do that and end up with NEITHER! I can not support any concept that will potentially leave us with NOTHING this year!
I seriously doubt we would have won that OU game had we given plenty of minutes in the second half to Cheick and Carlton. The fire was just too hot for them to contribute what Landen and Jamari contributed.
I think Jamari bought himself some PT minutes by playing as well as he did. He participated in the kind of plays Self really loves… scrappy rebounds, blocks and going after loose balls.
OU doesn’t miss many FTs. They would have enjoyed a lot more free points had we kept our freshmen in there longer.
Really… none of us are in any position to decide if Cheick should be getting more minutes. We simply haven’t seen enough of him to know what he can bring to the game now. We know he is very capable of fouling at a rapid clip.
And as far as him sitting on the bench and killing our future chances at recruiting more OADs… is it worse that he sits, or gets out on the court and brings the team down while he makes terrible plays? I’m not sure if any of us can answer that without just guessing.
His time will come. We have a few softer games coming up and I can almost reassure you that him and Carlton will be getting some minutes. What they do with those minutes will determine how many minutes they get.
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For the new guys I do feel a lesser amount of experience that involves winning is more valuable than a greater amount of experience that involves losing.
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The real question?
Can KU win another conference championship with Traylor and Lucas playing the most minutes?
Can KU win a national championship with Traylor and Lucas playing the most minutes?
It’s that simple.
Bottom line if Traylor and Lucas get the most minutes then Diallo and Bragg never reach their ceiling as they aren’t playing.
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A funny thing Self said in the post game interview about Hield: “We didn’t go after him very hard because we had Ben.”
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@DoubleDD Does Hunter not play on the team anymore?
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@drgnslayr You are right - it just feels like any day Bragg and Diallo’s minutes will increase because they are more comfortable. I think we all need to be patient and wait, as Coach knows how talented these guys are and what they can bring to the table.
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I kind of considered Hunter in the mix with Ellis. Yet after the OU game maybe I should reconsider that point.
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“Can KU win another conference championship with Traylor and Lucas playing the most minutes?”
We have a long ways to go in conference. I am hopeful both Cheick and Carlton are earning more minutes as some point in conference play.
But every game is important in conference.
Our victory against OU at home may easily end up being the winning margin we need in conference. We simply couldn’t waste that game away thinking ahead about the future.
Both Jamari and Landen made very nice contributions in our win against OU.
Will that continue? No one knows the future. Self is looking at conference play one game at a time, and that has proven to be successful for the past 11 seasons.
As of right now, I’m still glad Jamari and Landen are giving us good minutes.
I seriously doubt Self fought so hard to get Cheick and get him legalized only to ice him in the deep freeze all season. Just doesn’t make sense. Cheick is in charge of his minutes, not Self. Obviously, Bill set a bar that Cheick has to get over to get more minutes. I don’t believe that bar is unreasonable and I do believe that Cheick is flying up on that bar quickly.
This is about the time when Kelly started getting real minutes last year. Kelly was a lot more polished than Cheick at this time.
No question by anyone… everyone admits Cheick wasn’t D1 ready from Day 1 at Kansas. I think just about everyone on this planet would be surprised at how quickly he is progressing.
Many of you in here played (or play) lots of basketball. How long would it take to you from being rough to being D1 capable of contributing at a blue blood like Kansas? Well… in my case… I never reached that level of play and I’m guessing most of you didn’t either. And if all of us could sit in practices, we would be blown away by how fast he is progressing.
It won’t be long now…
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Good points but will Coach play him? That’s the question. I hope so.
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@drgnslayr Spot on. Remember being 18 and playing against a 22 year old guy (like Lucas and Traylor)?
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@drgnslayr said:
This is about the time when Kelly started getting real minutes last year. Kelly was a lot more polished than Cheick at this time.
Right on… Folks seem to forget this fact… And Oubre did not have a 5-game suspension… So if they progress at similar rates, Diallo’s moment may come a few games deeper in the conference schedule than Oubre.
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I am glad you are airing this angle, even though I never see much of a divide–just fans debating who to play as they have since I was a boy. I never see any divide at the field house and I know some pretty cantankerous and demanding alumni that are ecstatic about Self.
That being said, I will share my POV to contribute to the discourse, since you feel strongly about this and have thought it through.
I just see Self out ahead of fans, talking heads and most coaches and I see all of them laboring, as change requires, to catch up.
Right now Multiple Offences 2.0 is catching all of D1 flat footed and trying to catch up.
Last season he innovated Bad Ball and by season’s end perhaps a quarter of the teams were using it.
This summer he adopted quick trigger Trey in 4 out 1 in formation innovated by Fred Hoiberg and Mike Anderson and won the WUGs, and now it appears teams are following his lead.
Now he is piecing these together and teams will soon follow that lead, too.
Self is far and away the most trend setting coach of the last decaede, because: a.) he is so successful; b.) he is having to do it with less talent than the super stacks that most other coaches can’t even dream of having the talent to emulate.
That noted, How much higher ranked can we be than we are now? 1 is it.
Next. How much higher overall winning percentage should we realistically target than .820? Not sure.
Next, how many more titles could we have one the last 11 years than we did? Zero .
Next, Which OAD 5 HAS DOUBLE DOUBLED AT AN AVERAGE OF 15/15 and is still ascending (17/17 vs the No.2 team in the country) on a team with as diversified of scoring as KU has that has only lost 1 game? Can’t think of one.
Next, What adidas team is in as good of a position to give the dump truck schools a serious challenge? Can’t think of one.
Next, How much better of a shot at a title and ring can we have at this time of season than we have? Can’t envision better except metaphysically. Bragg and Diallo seem like they can learn with 6-15 mpg and be ready to contribute 10-20 minutes in a right matchup by March.
And we can’t lose any OAD 5s and PGs because they go to dump truck schools no matter what.
It now appears Self has passed everyone by again and everything has changed but the way we think.
Life with genius is always surprising.
I doubt we win a ring, because we are too short outside and too weak at rebounding, especially when the guy we were counting on for glassvacs, Diallo, hasn’t adapted well to D1, despite a steady dose of opportunity.
Regarding Diamond Stone, might he just be more like Xavier and Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Davis, and Ben Simmons, and less like Skal, and Cliff and caleb Tarcievski (sp), and Diallo?
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Yes we have a decent chance to win a title and a ring with C5.
No, we probably cannot win a title and a ring with Bragg and Diallo starting and playing 25-30 mpg every game. They would wreck us for sure.
In C5, so far, we appear to have the most potent every game MUA at the 5 of any team in D1.
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I’m all for the Inglorious Bastards. Like wise No, we cannot win a title and a ring with Lucas and Traylor starting and playing 25-30 mpg. They would wreck us for sure.
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@DoubleDD I agree, we need their collective strengths to win a title.
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Absolutely there will continue intermittently to be match ups where Traylor and Landen will play MORE minutes in order for us to win a title and a ring.
Both guys are getting better at their narrowly scoped roles as the season goes on. Landen’s improvement has been quantified. Part of the reason he is more productive is he is getting to play mostly against favorable match ups. Jamari will get more productive if his leg continues to heel.
But I also think there will be games where Diallo and Braggs mpg pick up. Hunter too.
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The C5 isn’t going to have a stand out player this year. It will be by committee and I would hesitate to include Bragg in the C5 because most of his minutes mostly come when he’s spelling Ellis at this point. That said, KU’s best option for the C5 this year is to play the hot hand or player that provides the need for KU at that time. Against OU, Traylor was the hot hand, but KU couldn’t completely close the gap because of their lack of rebounding so enter KU’s best rebounder, Landen Lucas and I will say that KU does not win that game without Landen’s rebounding efforts. When scoring is most important out of the C5, Mickelson is currently answer.
Diallo and Bragg do need minutes to see if their progress in practice is starting to carry over to games (not yet), but situations like Monday night are not the time to throw them to the wolves. I don’t think Saturday will be either as Texas Tech is not going to be an easy game for KU. Tech handled UT in Lubbock and was within 3 against ISU at Hilton tonight with about a minute left in the game before ISU pulled away at the very end. Bragg and Diallo are going to have their few minutes in the first half of games to justify any second half minutes the rest of the way.
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@jaybate-1.0 I’ll say this much to you, I’d love to sit down and just talk history with you. I enjoy your posts and what you have to bring to the table. Keep on truckin’, my friend.
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First, I dont like bagging on a kid, unless he clearly blows it multiple times in some game…then Im mad at that 1 game. But if a kid blows it repeatedly over several games, then its a bigger sign, & a bigger deal…more of a trend, & the kid could get typecasted. Lucas was bad vs MichSt, & that seemed to be symbolic of his play over the 3 seasons, the dreaded “trend”. But, he seems improved past his plateau a bit this season. So we shouldnt stop rooting for him.
Biggest reason Bragg played limited minutes is he was yielding rebounds, not boxing out. How does 6’3 Hield get putbacks in the paint??
Kevin Young was a limited, undersized, energy type big, yet he never drew the ire of fans like Traylor/Lucas.
Fans need to realize you dont learn Self’s system in a few weeks. And, some kids’ learning speeds and frosh playability varies: Shady, Cole, TRob, Twins, Cliff, Bragg, Diallo. TRob unplayable as frosh, becomes POY-candidate by Jr season…Marcus “soft” frosh, lotto pick by Jr season. Cole barely played as a McD frosh, lotto by Jr season. Shady+TRob with 3 quick fouls 1st half as frosh, too often.You think the $52mil Coach will tolerate outta-position play in the paint? Surrenderring rbds, stickbacks, 2nd chance opps to the opponent? By opposing guards, no less? Has this coach ever tolerated that? Think he’ll start now?
Do we think Self is committing “recruiting suicide” by not playing Bragg/Diallo more? Well, he hasnt killed the program yet.
Also, since these kids DO actually practice against each other & watch ea other, and hear & feel the $52mil Coach breathing down their necks in practice, they have a good idea exactly why Self is awarding mpg, & also why he is not… They may also know which teammate is better at various plays than they themselves are. (Ok, maybe BGreene doesnt quite see the light yet, but I bet he does after the 5game suspension).
Also, some matchups favor different players.
I’m not trying to defend the $52mil Self, but rather point out that this particular coach’s tried & tested system is based on awarding mpg based on reliability of execution in practice first. You’d think fans may appreciate that he’s trying to apply some reliability-of-execution yardstick, instead of just throwing a frosh out there based on high school hype alone. And its not that Self doesnt try to play a frosh: he’s played every frosh kid who was even faintly playable, just to see if he’s got a Sherron or Mason or Graham or Embiid on his hands. Look at the FroshLearningCurveMistakeCircus that IS Kentucky Basketball (at this point in their season) for the opposite example.
Mpg are directly tied to a frosh kid’s success or fails when he tries to play.
If you ask Bragg and Diallo and Greene directly “why arent you getting more mpg?”: what would the kids themselves say?? They get film study, feedback, etc, as they are being coached-up. They know EXACTLY why the ride pine.
Just another chpt of “Brady plays while EJ rides pine”. As frustrating as it is to think of their potential as highly-recruited players sitting on the bench…what shouldnt be forgotten is the kid himself has alrdy shown how reliable he is or is not yet…
Maybe Calipari and certainly Tom Izzo are ok with learning-curve losses, while Self, Roy, & other equally regarded coaches are NOT ok with absorbing losses. Philosophy plays a part as well.
I hope the green newbies catch on quicker, so I can see them play sooner. Its in their hands, brains, and repetitions…
We arent a Self team, until we do all the little things well, that he tries to teach. Notice the crisp passing this year, everything looks sharper, less mistakes–> hmm, finally we get to see a Self team led by experienced veteran players. Hmm, a bunch of soph, jr, sr players who know what they’re doing (fun to watch!). Doesnt happen by accident…takes hard work & a TON of repetitions, right?
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Persuasive.
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IMHO, these are very complicated changes we are living through in college basketball, essentially analogous to the privatization changes the university is living through. The changes alter who pays and who benefits from college sports enterprise and from the university education and research enterprise that the college sports enterprise is embedded in. The phenomenon is embedded in privatization of our republic and its federalized states.
There are different points of view on whether we should be going through the changes, just as there were debates about whether or not USA should become a continental sovereign (continentalization 1.0 ), become one of the imperial powers in 1900 (globalization 1.0), and attempt a global hegemony after the de-Communizing and federalization of the Russian Eurasian Empire (globalization 2.0). But sadly these debates tend to occur after, not before, irreversibility has set in. Irreversibility means the inability to muster the consensus to choose another path of new infrastructure expansion, because too much sunk cost in the current new path has been incurred to allow a course change. It is different than inevitability. Nothing is inevitable, because complexity and the unforeseen muck up all plans good and bad to one degree or other.
There is another stage of discussion, however; that takes place before the path becomes irreversible. It is: how do we sink enough costs to make our POV on future path irreversible?
And there is another stage of discussion before that; that is which infrastructure extension path do the latest technologies, distributions of resources and existing and potential alliances make feasible in the game space.
Most public discourse focuses on (and is orchestrated to focus on) the irreversible and so is essentially venting, where public relations, propaganda and pay-ops are used to manufacture consent to what is going to happen. This is where much talk about OADs now is. It’s good. It’s bad. We shouldn’t have done it and we should go back. We should have done it and let’s go with it. Self should play OADs. He shouldn’t.
But Self is not apparently operating at that level. His actions are saying the entire OAD apparatus is irreversible and not a net benefit to me and KU, if I either accept it as is, and sign and play them, like stack schools, or reject it, and don’t sign them. His actions are saying neither offered path offers net benefit, so I am walking a third path between.
Self’s actions are saying not all OADs are equal. Some have higher ceilings than others. Some have lower foundations than others. Some have no qualification risk. Others have big qualification risk. Self’s actions are saying OADs’ commitment and desire to develop and loyalty exist on a spectrum. His actions say his commitment, desire to develop, and loyalty to OADs are functionally proportional to theirs. His actions say I give you what you give me.
Self has redesigned Self Ball to accommodate the few OADs the recruiting process permits him. It denies him low risk, high foundation OAD point guards and 5s. He has gone to a two point guard offense to compensate that crucial role for not being able to sign the single OAD point guard. In lieu of the single high foundation OAD 5, he has evolve a C5 comprised of lesser 5s and a low foundation OAD 5 with qualification risk.
If the recruiting system changes and let’s him have a 5-10 OAD stack, he will probably embrace that.
The interesting thing is that necessity being an inventing mother, he seems to have invented a C5 that might outperform an OAD 5 under some circumstances, and a tandem point guard set up (pioneered by Self in 2008 and and evolved by Pitino a few years back) that might outperform a single OAD pg.
Self has moved on from playing or not playing OADs.
Public discussion, not Self, has to catch up.
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Nice post.
I think until we start losing games and having those loses directly on the shoulders of some of the C5 I don’t think much is going to change in how the minutes are distributed.
You look at Bragg and he’s clearly in the mix of the rotation before Diallo. Has been since Diallo has been allowed to play. He’s shown glimpses of getting more minutes but Self is using both of these guys only if they don’t make mistakes. If Bragg is going to get consistent minutes, he has to be perfect out there. He has to have a few games where his impact on the game is felt, and lately neither Bragg or Diallo is doing that consistently. Again its a catch 22, there not being allowed to play through mistakes because Self has 3 other veterans he can play that he knows he’s going to get what he hopefully wants out of them. He doesn’t want to lose, especially in Big 12 play. Our coach may value winning in the conference more than any other coach in the Country.
The unknown consistency for our freshman is keeping them on the bench. If Diallo learned court awareness and could play solid defense without fouling, or getting the ball at the FT line and not automatically launching would go a long way to getting on the court. Diallo has to learn how to best impact the game while he’s in there and stop thinking “me” first.
Same with Bragg, his only real offense has been off assists. His Jump-Shot has not been reliable and his defense comes and goes. While the upside for our veterans has already been reached, at least they know what to do and how Self wants it to be done.
Every game we play comes down to our guards and Ellis. We can microcosm a loss or a narrow win to the ineffectiveness of our veteran post players vs unknown production from our freshman but at the end of the day Mason, Graham, Selden & Ellis are going to be the majority of the reason why we win or lose.
Until the freshman prove to Self, we can talk about this issue every game. If we lose the Big 12 or in the NCAA’s because of this issue with our C5 then its on the coach to deal with. Until then we got to learn to enjoy the ride we are on. Our vets won us a big game Monday, I’m sure it won’t be the last. And for information I do want Diallo & Bragg to play but at this point not at the expense of not winning. And without knowing whether we are going to stop winning because Traylor or Lucas is playing more is something nobody can answer.
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Agreed. I think the biggest thing is that he wouldn’t let them play while we were beating the tails off of so many teams.
Not to say I don’t think he’s an incredible coach though, perhaps still one of the top 5 in the nation. And these upper-classmen certainly play with more passion than the youngsters.
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@MoonwalkMafia It is as if this blog has become a debate among Senators who in their hearts think that anything we say will force Bill Self to do things our way. What I find sad is that so many have lost any appreciation as a cheering fan. We right now are rated as the number one team in the country that just beat the other number one team in the country and for some reason there is no joy in some bloggers because we’re apparently not doing it the right way and only eventual failure is staring us in the face. We have the highest odds in Vegas to win the Championship, yet being in that position we still are on the short end of the bet which in the end, if KU doesn’t win it all, then the small “Sky is Falling Gang” can say, “See I told you so.” I love this team and I do not worship at the Alter of Bill Self. We’re playing Basketball now at a higher level than we have in 8 years. I personally thought that Bragg and Diallo did fine Monday night. Diallo throwing out of a double team with a crisp pass to an open man for the first time told me that. Like it or not, Coach is about defense first. More minutes are going to happen for the Frosh but I agree with Jaybate that every member of the Bastards has a place and a particular skill that they bring to the table. I thought that Diallo played well and seemed to be every bit as strong as Spangler. Peace to all.
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@wrwlumpy Well said. I think part of what is driving the freshmen playing time discussion is our recent performance in the tournament. Many believe that having them playing major minutes improves our chances of winning a NC. The recent disappointments have made this more of a flashpoint.
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We are now closer to the Texas Tech game than we are from the win we got on Monday night.
Reading the post out there including this one about the divide, who should play more, upside, ceilings, floors, why it went into OT or three, who played well who didn’t, the refs, the announcers, I have come to the conclusion of this.
Kansas fans are spoiled little brats.
One loss to the team that became number 1. A huge win over the #1/#2 team. Beating a team with possibly the POY of all of college basketball.
Yet there is unrest and anger about the winning. I made the resolution this year, and even posted it on this site that I was going to be more of a fan this year and less of a fanatic. Enjoy the season and the games and not get to a boiling point over ever possession that doesn’t result in a score for KU or a TO for the other team.
So I stand by my statement that KU fans are spoiled. Being ranked #1 isn’t good enough. Winning a tough fought game isn’t good enough.
Here’s a news flash, you can’t win a National Title unless you win games to get into the tournament to begin with. The more games you win in the season and against really good opponents, the better seed you get is said tournament. The better seed, the easier road to that National Title.
Lose those games early and often and then you are forced to win your conference tournament to get in. That will lower your seed in the big dance pitting you up against tougher teams earlier and more often in the tournament.
See you gotta win now, the next game. You can’t look ahead to March now, you have to look at Saturdays game right now. Then come Sunday you have to Look at Tuesday nights game, not who KU will match up in the round of 32.
OK and since someone will surely say I’m a Bill Self apologist for this post, hey I get it, he’s not perfect, nor is any player, ref, fan, announcer, game, band member or anyone or anything else. Being wrong makes us human by nature.
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Some generic comments from someone who doesn’t often post.
First, I am a huge Bragg fan. I truly believe that he could be one of our best players ever. His passing skills, court awareness, footwork, etc all make for a very special player. But putting him in for more minutes in the OU game would have cost us.
Second, Lucas is absolutely no threat to score and Kruger, knowing that, left him alone. I am not a big fan of Lucas as a player. Having said that, we do not go toa third OT without him. He scored 5 straight points, because he was left so alone, made a couple solid defensive plays and carried a major portion of the second OT.
Third, Diallo in the game is growing. He passed better and was more in the flow, than he has been in the past. Eventually he will be a stud for KU. Just not right now. But you can see it coming with both he and Bragg and oh boy, when it does!
Finally, this placing anyone who supports Self into a mythical group that must believe he can do no wrong, is a crock off semi heated poop. you can support someone and still see where they have made mistakes.
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Another one of your gem posts!
“Maybe Calipari and certainly Tom Izzo are ok with learning-curve losses, while Self, Roy, & other equally regarded coaches are NOT ok with absorbing losses. Philosophy plays a part as well.”
I watch a lot of MSU and UK ball.
Izzo likes to play a very hard preconference schedule. That is where he will gamble on games to get guys experience, plus he likes them to get punched in the face many times to toughen them for March. This year was unique for them because they did start B10 play without a loss. But once MSU starts conference play, it is all business. And Izzo will scratch your eyes out for a win. He definitely does not attempt to gamble in conference play any more than necessary, just like Self.
Calipari is different. He always starts a bunch of star freshmen so he doesn’t really have a choice. Over the past couple of seasons he seems to be learning that he can raise the bar at Kentucky if he can keep some seasoned players in his rotation.
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Another general comment about playing Bragg and Diallo more.
This gets to a concept that is lost in this one and done era. Talent is great, but experience can be better. Self runs a pretty basic offense. He has wrinkles that he adds in as the team is more experienced. I forget the number of plays/variations but it is around 100 for his full offense. It takes experienced players to run the various nuances. That is part of the reason this team has been so effective. They have the experience. This makes it tougher to defend KU.
When he inserts Bragg and Diallo, he has to shorten the playbook. and subsequently, even though they are more talented, the team is a slight bit easier to defend.
Just a thought
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@Kong Good points. I spend much too much time on this site and therefore do not attempt to read other school’s basketball blogs. :You point out that Lucas got points because Kruger left him alone. Kruger has been acclaimed here as a very good coach who wins wherever he goes. If anyone here reads OU sites, are they going on about how Lucas was left alone and how that cost them the game? Where do OU fans think their team stands now that they have lost to a team that plays the wrong players, shoots too few threes, and has failed to adapt to the current basketball landscape? There are a number of KU fans here who are upset about how we won the game. How many OU fans are happy about the way they lost the game?
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@sfbahawk To be honest, I would rather not take a critical eye to this particular game from either side. I do, because I am human. But honestly, it is one of those games that you really want to sit back and take a deep breath and just say “Wow, this is why I like college basketball.”
From both teams we saw great defensive play, fantastic effort by individuals, tremendous gut checks, critical high impact shots, wonderful team play and ball movement, etc.
It was just a joy to watch. I think both teams are looking at it like they could have done some things here or there differently, but overall that was about as good as they could play it.
Just don’t get me started on the officiating!
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@Bosthawk I appreciate that suggestion. I’ve started doing the same as well. I think it’s an extremely worthwhile practice for sure. It’s taught me much more about the game as well. It causes you to reevaluate what you see in the heat of the moment. For example, when we beat SDSU, everyone was saying that we played so well, and that it was such a convincing win. I didn’t see that when I rewatched the game. I’ll avoid going into the details of that game, but I agree with your suggestion and assure you that I have been doing the same this year. Again, it’s part of the reason that I felt compelled to write this. The Harvard game may have been one of the more difficult games to watch and then rewatch and find what Self said about Landen Lucas to be true. It simply was not. Rematching the games has likely been the biggest reason that has led me to think that we have better options on this team than how we have been playing in some of our games up to now.
@Kong To be sure, this not a mythical group. I can pretty much identify them by name. The “you weren’t interviewed for the job, so how dare you question coach Self” crowd. I assure you they’re out there. Go to KUSports.com to get a heavy dose of them. Your explanation about supporting someone despite their mistakes is the point. It’s the point I think many of us have made. I love Coach Self. Wouldn’t trade him for the world. But I don’t agree with everything he’s done. I think we’ve had some pretty horrendous losses that rest squarely on his shoulders (the loss to Michigan more than anything comes to mind). That doesn’t mean I want him fired. That doesn’t mean I want him to be replaced by anyone.
@wrwlumpy If Landen Lucas plays 25 minutes and scores 4 points while getting housed by Diamond Stone or Skal Labisierre, yes, I will say I told you so. But to be sure, you are right. Diallo did play better. It blows my mind that Diallo and Bragg think mid-range jumpers (i.e. the worst shot in the game) are ways to stay on the floor. They’re not. With Lucas and Traylor that is something that Self just doesn’t have to worry about because they don’t have that in their repertoire. But you are right, he make some nice plays and is seeming to get more comfortable. At the same time, if Coach Self values defense so much, why not give a guy that can erase plays on the defensive end? I subscribe to the notion that many other posters have pointed out that you gain experience from getting experience. You have to play to get experience though.
And finally, a very general comment on the OAD discussion. Self recruits OADs. So what’s the debate? He chooses to do it. If he doesn’t want to be forced to play them, then why recruit them? It’s not as if he can’t recruit top 50 players that will be around for a few years, who will take the time to learn the systems, learn from the bench, and learn from the veterans in front of them. So maybe instead of asking why should Self give the OADs the control the question should be why does he bother at all if they go against his core philosophy?
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@MoonwalkMafia Like most of us I don’t like the OAD circus. It is a pain as a fan as we don’t get to fall in love with the players as they go through their years at KU. We don’t get to discuss how much they developed in our system under the tutelage of Coach Self, etc. But he is going to continue doing it. He will keep recruiting the best players. Simple as that.
Some OAD players pan out and bring their teams to the promised land. Duke and UK are a pretty good example of this from last year. Some presumed OAD don’t exactly live up to the hype. Skal this year has been beyond underwhelming. He is averaging like 7 or 8 points a game and plays far more than Diallo who I think averages 5 or 6. I am certainly not saying that Diallo is living up to his hype. Far from it. I do believe that we would be seeing a more polished and D1 ready Diallo if he wasn’t forced to sit out our first 5 games.
Diallo and Bragg may not end up being OAD and that is why it is still ok in my book to keep recruiting them. As much as I hate the Cliff Alexander / Oubre class from last year as far as results are concerned I think you still have to recruit these kids. Bragg and Diallo may end up being back and our 2016-2017 team could be yet another squad who could be in a Final 4.
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@JRyman We are definitely spoiled.
I like being spoiled.
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I’m not sure I agree that when Traylor and Lucas are in the offense runs smoother. In fact I think it’s the opposite. The offense bogs down and KU plays bad ball when either Traylor or Lucas are manning the paint.
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@joeloveshawks Did you know that Self is the only active major coach besides Jim Boeheim to not take his team to back to back final fours? The list of people who have done it include Izzo, Donovan, Calipari, Pitino, Brad Stevens, Roy, Bo Ryan, and Consonants. Time to change that!
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@DoubleDD I agree that when Lucas is in it doesn’t run as smooth, but with Hunter in it does. Sometimes with Traylor it does, but certainly better, at this point, than when Diallo is in. But I didn’t say it ran smoother. I said it was a bit easier to defend as there are less options for the offense to run.
I actually like it when Bragg is in the game as his passing skills and court awareness tend to make up for many other things.
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IMHO, most every game is about “match ups.” We are fortunate to have the IB/C5 to address specific game match ups, which gives us a lot of versatility. No doubt we will see Diallo & Bragg involved in more suitable games, and LL & HM & JT will be involved in other suitable games given the match ups. CD & CB will eventually get more valuable minutes and experience when we play the lesser teams. Hopefully, they will be ready to take more minutes and adjust to tougher match ups sooner rather than later. Either way, I am elated to have IB/C5 this season!
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@hawkmoon2020 well said!
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@hawkmoon2020 Exactly. When teams have smaller posts that can’t push around our twig freshmen and HM, they will play more than LL and JT. But, the more physical, grind it out games, we need JT and LL in the game.
For those of you who don’t think LL or JT should be playing: When I was in high school, I started for my Varsity basketball team like I am sure most of you did. Except, that, I was not a good player. I was actually a bad player. I was so bad that when we went into the opposing teams locker room the day after one of our games, they had left up their game plan on the white board and it said in bold letters “DON’T GUARD #55.” I still played though. And I started every single game that season even though I had kids behind me that were more athletic, faster, and an actual offensive threat. Why? because of several reasons. Coach could trust me to rebound, play defense, and actually run the offense. I might never go for 20 pts, but coach could trust me. I understood my role, and that is the same scenario we have right now with our hawks.
JT and LL might not have as much of an upside as CB and CD, but they also have far less of a downside currently. As the season progresses, and CB and CD have a smaller downside, things will change. But as it stands, LL and JT are the safer bet because we know what they bring to the table.
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@Kcmatt7 i’d take you on my TEAM!
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@ralster Thats good stuff man!!
I have a question for everyone.
Which team other than OU could beat KU in an elite 8 or Final Four match up?
Per Kenpom, no team in the last decade has won the championship without a top 15 offense and defense…that I could find anyways.
KU, OU, 'Nova and Michigan St are the only teams right now with that sort of balance.
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That is a grand slam post!!!
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@Lulufulu Not many teams would win, even on an average KU game. My list would be Virginia, Maryland, Xavier and maybe Iowa. MSU, OU, KU and UNC are currently the probable one seeds.
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On a given day, any team can beat any other team…this is the pet peeve I have with the single elimination approach.
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@JayHawkFanToo But that’s also the beauty of the tournament…makes it so much fun, exciting, and unpredictable, because the best team doesn’t always win. Just the team that gets hot at the right moment.
Sucks for the favorite, of course (which we usually are). But the event itself is glorious.
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I believe that once it get to the Elite 8 is should be at least 2 out of 3 or 2 groups of 4 playing each other. Other than Football (pretty logistically impossible) I cannot think of another major sport where a single game decides the tittle.
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@JayHawkFanToo Me too. Which is why it frustrates me that you can have 5 great months…and 1 bad game in the tournament…and your season is a failure in many people’s eyes.
