The 5 spot
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in The 5 spot:
@BShark because we have to depend it that or because nobody can do it? I assume it’s the first.
Both but mostly the first. I do think Bill will adapt though.
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He certainly had some moments, good and bad. Looked like a freshman & then dealt with some injury issues that stunted further growth. I’m not sure we saw him in the best light last year. I’m disappointed we are not hearing that he’s been that good so far leading up. In fact it sounds like the all the bigs have struggled. We have had a lot of steady years in the post when we think back to even the Doke days. Doke/Dave/Mitch played a lot of minutes here the last 5-6 years and now that mantle is finally being passed on. Sounds like a lot of growing pains going on right now and something that will likely spill over well into the season.
KJ will play & I have long thought he’d still get minutes at the 5 after solid play there in spurts last year as a freshman. When you earn that kind of trust from coach you tend to keep it. I just think it’s a valid concern about his rebounding. He had 10 total defensive rebounds last year in his minutes. Guards grab more boards than that without even trying. It’s weird because he was pretty darn good at stealing a possession here and there on offense, so you know he has the ability to get the ball.
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Why not Jalen at the 5?
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I mean we all know what he can/can’t do defensively. He’s a great college rebounder and not much else defensively.
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@Jethro said in The 5 spot:
Why not Jalen at the 5?
Even at 6’8", I remember thinking Mitch Lightfoot was undersized at the 5 when the opponent got the ball to their 5. At a “listed” 6’7", 225 lbs., other teams will post him up and let their big men go to work and score. KJ will be OK on offense; way different that DMac, but OK. The mismatches will ocurr on the defensive end of the court. But, I loved KJ’s defense on the perimeter, like NC’s Manek. so when the opponent’s 4 or 5 regularly plays outside, KJ would be my choice.
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Unless Zach/Udeh solidify the 5 position we’re going to be a bit small there all year. Zuby, athletic but 6’8, KJ is shorter than that but again he’s an athletic freak. Cam is tall but not good.
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I do think we will go small some with Wilson at the 5. But it isn’t a 30 mpg solution
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And will be very matchup dependent as well if it happens. I see no reason to play our best player at the 5 and get him beat up. Guys are just going to have to step up and rise to the occasion.
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@Kcmatt7 said in The 5 spot:
I do think we will go small some with Wilson at the 5. But it isn’t a 30 mpg solution
I’m thinking we could go that way until Bill can get the 5 spot sorted out. I just wish each of our 5s had an extra year of experience.
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@Jethro pretty sure you see them do this only when the offense is struggling to get going. But otherwise a last resort.
I definitely get what you’re saying though.
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There is definitely some vindication from people who said we should go after a transfer at the 5. It would be nice to have Kofi in the building lol
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Very fun read in here.
I like to read diversity in opinions on the 5 and we have many ideas going.
I don’t think we become a real powerhouse team without the 5 being resolved. Self has always relied on the post and even last year, as he designed around his previous necessary hi-lo the season came down to low post scoring down the stretch.
I’m never going to say “never” about Self because he has proven me wrong before. He is a guy who changes with the game and the players he has. But as of today, I think his focus right now is to weed through the post guys and maybe nails it down to 2 soon to carry the weight. Ability to develop low post scoring will be key and I can’t help but think strength will be very very important. Look at all those guys and judge them by strength and you have maybe the best indicator (guess) as to how this is going to work itself out.
I have to admit I’m intrigued with Clemence… just not quite as committed as @Texas-Hawk-10 yet. Clemence clearly has a huge skill set, but will it be the skills needed in the low post? Kind of reminds me of EJ… is it necessary to sacrifice his development for his future in order to fit into KU’s needs today? If I’m Clemence… I’m working on my handles, outside shot, crossover, creating scoring space all over the floor and less low post finishes.
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Yeah, perhaps a transfer would have been ideal.
Here’s my rebuttal against that though. We recruited Zach, KJ, Zuby, Udeh in two recruiting classes to play the position. You develop and play these guys that you have invested in. Your security blanket of having an experienced post player is gone after reaping the benefits of guys sticking around. We forget Dave/Mitch struggled mightily as younger players. I get the portal let’s you go out and get a ready-made guy but these KU coaches get paid a great deal to also develop HS talent & long-term that’s the best way to get out of this situation.
Think we are seeing a combination of Self expecting a certain level of play in the post & new guys struggling to match that standard right now. I think we need to prepare as if this will be a constant battle all year long. It’s probably going to take most of this year before we see someone start to emerge. These things take time & this position group is probably a year away from being a strength again.
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Clemence’s game is more poor man’s Brady Manek.
I feel like Self is going to have to be way more creative in how he gets points down low. A lot of his traditional stuff he likes to run doesn’t have a traditional guy to make the plays yet. If the guard play is strong, then that will help them.
I do agree that he’s going to have to settle in on 1-2 options and live with it. I can’t see a platoon being effective.
A lot of my analysis has been about finding the best offensive option in the post but defensively I think that’s the bigger issue Self isn’t talking about. It sounds as if the void Dave/Mitch left is significant right now
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It’s too bad we couldn’t get Doke another year of eligibility.
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This is an interesting conversation. Kind of an old school conversation in a way though, right?
The model in basketball lately has been mobile bigs who can handle and shoot, not necessarily post up and dominate inside like Shaq back in the day.
Looking at the last half decade or so of national champions, Kansas last year was really the only team with a traditional big with size with Big Dave. you have to go way back to 2015 Duke to find a traditional big over 6-9. Villanova? Virginia?
So, I dunno if this is even a conversation.
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Dave had another year available to him which would have been ideal.
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UNC had a traditional big (Bacot) and made it to the Finals. Flo Thamba was a traditional big on the Baylor team that won it 2 years ago. Doke in 19-20 was on the best team in America. Virginia’s big Diakite on their title squad was more of the mobile type.
At least recently, its proven to be effective to have that traditional big in the lane.
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@BeddieKU23 said in The 5 spot:
Dave had another year available to him which would have been ideal.
Any way we could get him on the phone?
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The irony is that the staff sort of shoo’d Dave away. At least that is what it sounded like.
Basically said thanks, but we’re ready to move on. Reaping a bit of what we sowed.
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I think for the new brand of ball, Zach fits pretty well. The key is for him to hit from 3. As soon as that happens, the defense gets spread out and opportunities open up for everyone.
And on D, you switch, switch, switch.
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Perhaps… but it sure wasn’t done because Self wanted him gone and replaced. Self pushed him to leave because this was his time to go, even if he preferred to stick around.
I love the idea… just uncertain of the effectiveness. I think back to Kieff popping the julie from top of the key… it was sweet when it worked. But how effective is it? Your big out there having zero chance of a rebound and taking a shot that is probably best left for a guard. We should always be able to scheme a good trey for a guard.
I hope I’m proven wrong here… would be great if Zach could go 40% from outer space!
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@drgnslayr said in The 5 spot:
Perhaps… but it sure wasn’t done because Self wanted him gone and replaced. Self pushed him to leave because this was his time to go, even if he preferred to stick around.
I love the idea… just uncertain of the effectiveness. I think back to Kieff popping the julie from top of the key… it was sweet when it worked. But how effective is it? Your big out there having zero chance of a rebound and taking a shot that is probably best left for a guard. We should always be able to scheme a good trey for a guard.
I hope I’m proven wrong here… would be great if Zach could go 40% from outer space!
Here’s what having a 5 who can knock down 3’s does, it opens up the paint for guys like Wilson, McCullar, Rice, and Harris to drive and do damage in the middle of the floor because teams would have to guard Clemence on the perimeter.
This is also why KU’s best chance this year is if Clemence develops. This team doesn’t project to be an elite shooting team, but being able to space the floor and get penetration with the wings and guards is still getting the low post points that Self wants, just not in a traditional way.
Based on last year, Clemence also has the mentality to be an above average low post defender and rebounder because he is tough and he’s aggressive. He may not have the ceiling that Udeh has on defense, but Clemence does have the highest overall ceiling of any of the bigs on the roster.
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@BeddieKU23 said in The 5 spot:
UNC had a traditional big (Bacot) and made it to the Finals. Flo Thamba was a traditional big on the Baylor team that won it 2 years ago. Doke in 19-20 was on the best team in America. Virginia’s big Diakite on their title squad was more of the mobile type.
At least recently, its proven to be effective to have that traditional big in the lane.
Well, sure kinda sorta maybe on Flo? Dude averaged a career best 6 pts a game his last year. So not really counting him as a go to guy to get a basket down low.
So we got Bascot and KU’s offerings. The cupboard isn’t exactly bursting at the seams is my point.
I’m by no means arguing against the idea of a big who can get a bucket, just saying they don’t exist as much in today’ game any more.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in The 5 spot:
Here’s what having a 5 who can knock down 3’s does, it opens up the paint for guys like Wilson, McCullar, Rice, and Harris to drive and do damage in the middle of the floor because teams would have to guard Clemence on the perimeter.
Exactly. It’s a big if, but there’s a lot of speed with that crew, so if they can rev the engine and stretch the defense… good things should ensue.
If you think about it, that’s kind of what they did last year in the tourney. The first shot against Nova and UNC was Ochi hitting a 3. That couldn’t be a coincidence. It would be interesting to go back and look at KUs first set and shot in each game to see how often they tried to establish the outside threat and tug at that D from the get-go.
And last years team was fast. Fast break points were a priority. They passed quickly and this occasionally resulted in some sloppy looking passes, especially early in the season. But when it got dialed in, it was a thing of beauty.
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Yeah Flo was the starter but not a very impactful one to their success that year. Crazy that he’s still around.
I agree the traditional Big’s importance has diminished with how the game has evolved at that position. For KU’s scheme it has been critical that they have a guy that can go get a bucket.
Clemence was an interesting take from a fit perspective. Bigs that can stretch the floor have been rare in the Self era. DLaw was the last one and he was only around 1 year.
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Great post… hope it works out that way!
I get revved with this idea… Clem offers so many assets, including passing, and his footwork outside of the low post is like nothing we have ever had from a big. Put this guy on the perimeter and we have a lot less fouls called on us because Clem is skilled at setting a screen.
Imagine his potential for pick and pop, pick and roll?
He’s also a solid passer who can easily pass over defenses into the post for darting guys.
To really take advantage of Clem we will need to commit early to having him be our guy. There is pluses and negatives… the plus is we can have other traditional bigs back him up who run traditional offense and then we have two very different offensive approaches we can run at teams and they have to practice against this before facing us. The neg is we have to work hard to get proficient at both.
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We want Zach to separate from the pack I feel, but it’s an uphill battle because he’s not what you would call a Bill Self big.
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@drgnslayr said in The 5 spot:
Great post… hope it works out that way!
I get revved with this idea… Clem offers so many assets, including passing, and his footwork outside of the low post is like nothing we have ever had from a big. Put this guy on the perimeter and we have a lot less fouls called on us because Clem is skilled at setting a screen.
Imagine his potential for pick and pop, pick and roll?
He’s also a solid passer who can easily pass over defenses into the post for darting guys.
To really take advantage of Clem we will need to commit early to having him be our guy. There is pluses and negatives… the plus is we can have other traditional bigs back him up who run traditional offense and then we have two very different offensive approaches we can run at teams and they have to practice against this before facing us. The neg is we have to work hard to get proficient at both.
What do you mean by “his footwork outside of the low post is like nothing we have ever had from a big?”
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He recruited Zach knowing this about him already. Going to take time but I think he gets there
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@Kcmatt7 said in The 5 spot:
What do you mean by “his footwork outside of the low post is like nothing we have ever had from a big?”
Clem is nimble with his feet. For example, when he sets a pick he can position his feet the right way to prevent a lot of offensive fouls. He can also know how to set a better screen by being in the exact spot that will best slow down the defender’s path.
Sounds like a little thing, but it ends up counting big!
Think back on all the offensive fouls that were called on guys like Big Dave. He either arrives late or his position is ripe for drawing the call.
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@drgnslayr I wouldn’t say he’s doing things we’ve never seen before on the perimeter. Zach is pretty cinderblock footed in my opinion. Reminds me a lot of Carlton Bragg the way he moves to be honest…
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The only thing Zach has shown to be elite at so far is shooting. He could possibly be the best shooting big man we’ve ever seen under Self. Stroke is absolutely pure. I assume he probably has good BBIQ as well.
But he is physically weak in the post. He also appears to be pretty vertically challenged based on everything I’ve seen. Even his HS tape shows this. He’s not going to set better screens than probably any of the other bigs (all of whom are bigger in stature). He isn’t going to be a better rim protector than anyone but maybe Cam.
Now, if Zach can always be in the right spot and do the little things, he probably is the best option. Having a potential lineup where all 5 guys can hit it from deep is tough af to defend. Might force teams to play smaller, in which case Zach at 6’10 can go post guys up for easier buckets. The ideal situation is Zach taking a big step forward and owning the position.
I’m just not sure that Self is willing to concede some easy buckets when he has a 7’2 wingspan and two other freak athletes on the bench he can put in that spot.
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We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.
I compare how he moves his feet to how Dave moved his feet and I see a huge difference.
I agree he needs more strength and think that is what works against him stealing all the 5 minutes. Probably not a great leaper. If he moves his feet well that can make up for a lot. Positioning and being a quick leaper can do that.
To be honest… we all need to see him play more to assess him and he might be better this year if he spent his summer wisely building his strength.
I met him a few months ago… he’s got some size. His height is real and isn’t as thin as I previously thought.
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@drgnslayr I can definitely agree we need to see more. I can imagine Bill knows what he is going to do already, but he is pushing some buttons here at the end of the preseason to see what else he can milk out of these guys. The master of pushing buttons. Easy to forget that he benched Dave midseason and started KJ for a hot second to prove his point.
I certainly hope Zach comes out and proves me wrong. Because a starting lineup with a good Zach, Dick and Wilson is a great shooting lineup that would keep opposing coaches up at night.
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I totally agree… would be great to see Zach earn the spot!
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The one thing the dump downs to the post did was draw the defense inside, which led to open perimeter shots. And Bill misses that. I think I will, too. But I keep thinking what MCCullars will do down low w/o a center to harrass him, and MJ … MJ is the premiere on the block guy we have. And Jalen will run past any ( hyperventilation moment- I should say almost any ) 4 in the country to the rim. Hell, set Clemence up at half court, and let our other players slice and dice.
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@Jethro You saw Bill post up both Och and CB last year.
I would expect to see him expand that part of the playbook. Wilson, KJ, Dick, MJ and McCullar all of the size to abuse smaller guards. Just watch Bill do something disgusting like invert the high-low offense and have bigs feeding lob passes over the top to guards for 20 points a game. Would be too funny to watch honestly. And it’d probably work amazingly well.
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@drgnslayr said in The 5 spot:
We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.
I compare how he moves his feet to how Dave moved his feet and I see a huge difference.
I agree he needs more strength and think that is what works against him stealing all the 5 minutes. Probably not a great leaper. If he moves his feet well that can make up for a lot. Positioning and being a quick leaper can do that.
To be honest… we all need to see him play more to assess him and he might be better this year if he spent his summer wisely building his strength.
I met him a few months ago… he’s got some size. His height is real and isn’t as thin as I previously thought.
Plus, He’s the only KU player who has ever tweeted me back…ever. That counts for something right there.
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McCullar should be a beast in the low post!
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@drgnslayr I can already picture the old man game down there ha.
My first thought was honestly Jalen Brunson absolutely dominating dudes down there with just an old school post up game. I could see McCullar doing this for sure.
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How about our Big 12 very own Niang? 6’8" and body. I loved watching that guy play! He schooled everyone… both outside and inside!
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Cam hurt, will be out a few weeks.
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Sounds like a little thing, but it ends up counting bi Think back on all the offensive fouls that were called on guys like Big Dave. He either arrives late or his position is ripe for drawing the call.
Yay, a grammar police moment.
I believe you mean “rife for drawing the call.”
also, your post is right on.
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Sounds odd. Might be a couple of weeks or might be surgery.
“the Jayhawks welcomed a group of ladies back into the Fieldhouse in person for a behind-the-scenes look at everything that goes into the program. That included a tour of the facilities, including the KU locker room”
I read this and thought the worst. Then it mentioned players’ moms.
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Hearings: would expect KJ to start at this spot against Pitt St. Will update if something changes.
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Sounds about right.
Grady, too?
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After last night I thought the position was Udeh’s to lose in the long run. I think KJ will play a ton there early. But Udeh and Zuby will slowly chip away at his minutes as the season goes on.
Here are some notes I took rewatching the game this morning:
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Udeh - got the start. He was out of position on ball screens twice his first run. Was a little lost on offense (but so was everyone). Clearly the other starters were not comfortable playing with him yet. 2nd run - GREAT defensive effort on the first possession. Basically cause the TO (and almost a shot clock violation). He isn’t posting up at all on O. Not sure if that is by design. I think he must just feel more comfortable on pick and roll lobs. I do think he is a shit rebounder for his size so far. Back in with the starters for his 3rd run - REALLY good help on ball screen action forces a DEEP 3 by Pitt. Then catches the lob the next possession. Next possession another really good help on a ball screen. Then misses the lob. Next possession Udeh gets away with a block, but no call. Ends up a layup from the chaos. Next defensive possession Udeh causes the turnover with a tipped pass that leads to THE OFF THE BACKBOARD LOB. Then KJ throws an idiotic lob and Udeh gets a little banged up.
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KJ got the start at the 4. Which was interesting. His confidence to launch a 3 early tells me we may see a few more of those… Not sure if that is good or bad. Nothing special though his first time on the floor. First run with KJ at the 5 - The switch everything defense caused some confusion between Joe/Jalen/KJ and we give up a wide-open 3. The next possession it works and forces a shot clock violation… Then a turnover the next… The next half court possession ANOTHER turnover. AND THEN ANOTHER TURNOVER WHERE ADAMS GETS AN AND-1. Now a tie-up (KJ had nothing to do with this). Halftime over and KJ get the start at the 5 again. Dumb turnover, stripped by a guard at the high post. But then sets the screen to get Dick open for 3. Forces a bad shot at the rim which gets us a bucket at the other end. Makes a good hustle shot contention in the corner the next play. Next offensive possession he makes a brilliant under the basket skip pass to Wilson in the corner for 3.
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Zach first run - didn’t set any really good screens. Did nothing on O. And gave up two layups I don’t think any of the other big men give up… Offers literally no rim protection. 2nd time out: Good little hook in the paint. 8:13 mark Zach comes over to help on a backside block and might as well not even try. Guy goes over him no problem. Zach in for his 3rd run now. With an awful lineup (wtf Bill). Zach for the 2nd time has the ball on the block and doesn’t realize he is sort of open. Makes a bad pass. Zach a few possessions later gives up on a rotation and guy drills a 3. Zach gets a steal here and it leads to him getting a nice bucket off of a nice pump fake. Very next possession he falls over on D (trips himself) and we give up a 3. Next D possession Zach overhelps on D and can’t close quick enough on his own man we give up a 3. Zach back in with 3 minutes left. Two big look with Zuby. Zach drills a corner 3 (man that stroke is pure).
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Zuby - He looks better on this first run than I remembered last night. But didn’t do anything special. He does take up a lot of room and set some screens. Him and Yes had a bad defensive ball screen action. Gave up the 3 that let Pitt go up 20-6. I though Joe should have gone over the screen, so not sure it was Zuby’s fault. Zuby’s 2nd run - set the screen to get Dick loose for his first 3. He did get abused on a possession. Needs to be tougher for a guy who is 250 lbs… Then got scored over pretty easily. Then he leaves his feet to try and block a 3 and lets his man draw a foul at the basket. Zuby back in for his final run. Posts up his man and makes a very award attempt at a basket, but misses. Gets his own rebound though and scores. Zuby gets a nice poke on a ball that leads to a fast break foul. Next defensive possession he gets a nice help side block. Tip in by Zuby off a missed shot. Zuby with another lob catch for a bucket.
So here is a power ranking of bigs after last night:
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KJ - I love this team playing small and fast. Because we aren’t small. This team is HUGE outside of Harris at PG. KJ lets us play some intense D. It makes sense to see 4 guards and KJ for a good 10-15 mpg where we just pump up the pace of play as fast as we can.
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Udeh - I thought he did the best job of the other bigs defending ball screens after his 1st run. Got his hands on the ball some. Clearly the guys feel like they can just throw the ball at he rim and he’ll go get it. I was disappointed by his rebounding. And I was surprised we didn’t post him up at all. But I like how active he was and I like his ability to defend a lot.
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Zuby - By far the best of the bigs at setting screens and rebounding. He did both of those really well last night (in comparison to the others). He looked raw, but that’s okay. I thought he defended okay and did provide some good rim protection. Overall, I liked what I saw and he easily could have been 2 over Udeh.
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Zach - I do think he is the savviest of the bigs. He’s in the right spot quite a bit. And that shot is something else. But otherwise he is a piss poor rim defender, average rebounder and slow footed in comparison to the others. He is the anti-Bill Self big. A guy who could be force fed for 15ppg at another program. But the truth is I’m just not convinced that he is a P5 big man… And I’m not sure he ever plays more than 15 mpg here ever with his athletic/defensive limitations.
Overall, I wasn’t disappointed by the bigs last night. I thought it was weird how we didn’t post them up very much (maybe that is telling). I continue to believe that while it is the position with the most minutes up for grabs, it isn’t going to kill us. I will say last night did make me appreciate Dave a bit… Hopefully Zuby and Udeh can progress quite a bit over the next 3 months though. I think they will. And what right now may look like a weak spot could turn into a strength. A 1-2 punch of Udeh and Zuby with the ability to go full Golden State Warriors if we need to in KJ.
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Perhaps Self was saving parts of the offense from getting scouted. One reason I can think of them avoiding the post ups. Or the offense is so vanilla right now because of the lack of experience they are running it certain way until there’s more practice and game reps. It is weird but there has to be good reason for it
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@Kcmatt7 Oddly Zach was the ONLY big who posted up and scored last night. And there was evidence last season he could post up and score as well. So, he seems like the perfect modern big to me. Assuming he proves he can shoot of course, which he hasn’t yet in a game. He even proved he’s mobile. He took it to the rack from the foul line and scored!
I say Zach will prove very valuable over time.
As for us morphing into the Golden State Warriors…can’t do that without 4.5 shooters on the floor. We ain’t got the ponies for that. Best we can hope is that Self makes these guys dribble drive like Dotson did. I think the odds of us turning into a good driving team are higher than us turning into a good shooting team, outside of Gradey of course.
Just keep those bigs rotating …
