Post Tournament Thoughts
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Great post. I think you hit on all off the issues with this team so far.
I will start with the good and go in reverse of how you went.
Braun (along with Agbaji) was very good scoring from the perimeter. Having both of those guys emerge as legitimate threats to score 15+ every night will make KU very hard to guard because you cannot leave either from three, which opens up so many passing and cutting lanes everywhere else. Over time, this will open up the lane for Martin, Yesufu (we’ll get to both of them in a second) and others. If Wilson rediscovers his stroke, that’s potentially five guys at crunch time that can handle, shoot, or drive.
Part of the good shooting is having good shooters. Part of it is having space to operate. This team should never have more than one big man on the floor at a time. McCormack will be better than he has been. He is at his best either at the top of the key shooting his face up jumper, rolling to the rim for a lob, or getting his offense off rebounds and stick backs. Those are the ways Big Dave should score. Force feeding him in the post is sub optimal, especially when he can punish defenses that help to shooters and drives with dunks and putbacks.
Because KU needs to play small to maximize their personnel, they are going to need guards that rebound. Martin is very good as a rebounder (constantly working back to get boards), and Braun plays bigger than he is on the glass. Agbaji should rebound more, and I would actually challenge him to either rebound at a higher rate, or take on key defensive assignments. But this team has to play small. Wilson is most effective facing up bigger players, where his quickness can exploit that mismatch. When he moves to the perimeter as a wing, his quickness advantage is negated and his productivity drops. I would like to see KU run some 1-4 to 4-5 PnR action. Basically, Wilson screening for the PG (preferably with a PG that can shoot), then if Wilson catches on the pick and pop, immediately getting a screen from the 5. Since KU is going to have shooters on the floor all the time, that double PnR action could catch a team in slow rotations, which should open up either a lob or a three.
This team might be able to be average defensively, but they can’t do that if they switch everything up top. They have a few guys (Harris, Yesufu, Agbaji sometimes, Braun at times) that can get after it defensively. McCormack and Lightfoot are solid around the rim. But they have to be able to keep their assignments rather than switching on every action because size and quickness disadvantages can be exploited if they know switches are coming. That’s a tactical adjustment that should be made in conference play.
And finally, how to close games. The Dayton loss can be blamed on a bad closing strategy. First, KU may have had the wrong group on the floor. Second, they may have had the ball in the wrong guys hands.
The two best one on one scorers on this team are Martin and Agbaji, so if you’re running a play at the end of the game, the ball needs to be in Martin’s hands to start, and it probably should get to Agbaji eventually. The ball should not go into the post, because that is not KU’s most efficient offense. Dave McCormack is not Wayne Simien, or either Morris Twin, or Perry Ellis, or Darrell Arthur. Those guys were more or less automatic one on one in the post. Because McCormack isn’t automatic, asking him to make that play in that situation is unfair. He has skills that mean he can be a factor on that play if you have a PnR going that gives him a roll option, or even a pick and pop where he could also be a passer since Dave is adept at finding open teammates. But asking him to score in a back to the basket situation there, when that isn’t his strongest suit, is unfair to him. Let him make a play he excels at.
But the other option is to close games with either Martin-Agbaji-Braun-Wilson-McCormack or Martin-Yesufu-Agbaji-Braun-Wilson. I’m not sure which of those lineups I prefer more, but Yesufu is another ballhandler/scorer that can make things happen. Having five guys like that down the stretch is intriguing. Obviously, the group with Yesufu is super small, but if they don’t get killed on the glass, it will be difficult to turn them over and they should shoot it well. I’d lean more towards the lineup with McCormack now, surrounded by four shooters. If McCormack is a screener with any of those guys, he is well positioned to play his best ball as a lob catching rim runner that can crash the glass hard.
But it’s still very early, so these things have a way of working themselves out.
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Only dropped to 7th and 8th in the Coaches and AP poll, respectively. I think we are probably worse than that right now.
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@AsadZ said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
Nice post and analysis.
Regarding Team D, could this be attributed to this year’s having several new players including transfers who are still trying to figure out Self’s D style and philosophy?
No, because the Dayton game showed Self has a core 7 man rotation right now. 5 of those 7 were here last year. The difference is Remy instead of Garrett which is a huge downgrade and JCL instead of Thompson which is an upgrade. Yesufu can help of he cracks the rotation because he is a good defender, but his biggest issue is consistency.
This was a bad defensive team last year and it’s mostly the same pieces again this year.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 - Watching Yesufu, I was impressed with his energy. He may not know what’s expected (he’s learning), but he’s trying hard! Seemed to look for rebounds around the boards and hustled!
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I don’t see a Top 10 team after the tourney… though I expect to see a much better team after Christmas. We usually make a leap after the holidays and as league play gets under way.
Curious… will this be a typical Self team that gets out of the blocks early in league play this year? We have a lot of talent but haven’t always showed it because so many new guys adjusting.
I see so much potential in this team, but also this group is perhaps the hardest to predict from past teams because who knows how some of these guys will play in a few months. I said early on, watch out for someone springing off the bench and becoming a major contributor by the end of the season. For that to happen, it might also mean one of our projected successes falls… or worse… suffers an injury.
This is definitely a “time will tell” team!
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Clemence, Adams and Yesufu will all see increased minutes. Newsflash
- Coach is not all that happy with Dave, having Agbaji go opening tip? I loved the move, but that’s how disgusted coach is with Dave.
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Och has quick ups
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I thought putting Chai dog jumping was a brilliant HOF move. Not only does it put a spur under Dave’s shorts it also gives us a shot at winning jump! And it makes a statement that we need to value every single possession!
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“And it makes a statement that we need to value every single possession!” Now if we only would do so.
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Is there really any value to winning the tip?
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Post tournament thoughts? We’re not horrible, we just expect perfection because we’ve been spoiled. I mean, look at our coaching tree and the coaches that we have spun out - Adolf Rupp, Dean Smith, even Coach Self who was a grad assistant under Larry Brown… That being said, here goes.
Dave doesn’t fit with the players on this team. He is mechanical, not fluid and slows them down. He cost us the Dayton game.
Ochai is a star and MVP of our team. Love me some Och, glad he came back.
Braun is a player. Been a Christian fan from the get go, he just knows the game and knows how to play. When we need a play whatever the type might be, he’s always there it seems.
Remy needs to play, period.
Wilson is struggle city, so far. All due to him sitting out four games? We shall see.
Bench - Clemence and Adams deserve to have some playing time, ditto Yesufu and JCL. Harris isn’t impressive thus far and I like him as a player, but the makeup of our team isn’t the same as last.
Mitch has had some good moments and Pettiford.
Now, break out the firing squad, but as I see it Dave’s minutes need to drastically decrease, Harris’ too as well as those of Wilson.
I would not start Dave. For now, I’d go with Wilson, Braun, Agbaji, Remy and Yesufu. Bench - Clemence and Adams, JCL, Mitch and Pettiford. Dave mixed in here and there, if and or when needed.
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@Marco said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
Post tournament thoughts? We’re not horrible, we just expect perfection because we’ve been spoiled. I mean, look at our coaching tree and the coaches that our program has spun out, my god… That being said, here goes.
Dave doesn’t fit with the players on this team. He is mechanical, not fluid and slows them down. He cost us the Dayton game.
Ochai is a star and MVP of our team. Love me some Och, glad he came back.
Braun is a player. Been a Christian fan from the get go, he just knows the game and knows how to play. When we need a play whatever the type might be, he’s always there it seems.
Remy needs to play, period.
Wilson is struggle city, so far. All due to him sitting out four games? We shall see.
Bench - Clemence and Adams deserve to have some playing time, ditto Yesufu and JCL. Harris isn’t impressive thus far and I like him as a player, but the makeup of our team isn’t the same as last.
Mitch has had some good moments and Pettiford.
Now, break out the firing squad, but as I see it Dave’s minutes need to drastically decrease, Harris’ too as well as those of Wilson.
I would not start Dave. For now, I’d go with Wilson, Braun, Agbaji, Remy and Yesufu. Bench - Clemence and Adams, JCL, Mitch and Pettiford. Dave mixed in here and there, if and or when needed.
Man just seems you got a hard on for Dave. - -To save he cost us the Dayton game is probably the furtherst thing from being right that can be. THE WHOLE FRICKEN TEAM COST US THE DAYTON GAME not just McCormack. Very True Dave is off to a slow start agree , BUT WISLON right now holy crap he is crap at this point - -exactly what the hell has he done? - - go ahead I’ll wait. - - Ya I’ll agree wo know’s Dave might do better coming off the Bench for now , BUT inserting Wilson at the 5 which has been tossed about - - is not the answer - I’m not sure what it is - - -Zach is pretty Mobile can stretch but on the defensive side he is at this point a huge liability - -maybe we play KJ he is athletic but his offensive skills right now are zelch, might be able to cover and others score let him rebound - I dunno , think ya need to back off Dave a bit. We have many many other problems then just Dave at this point
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We better figure out the 5 spot quick. I can see the Kentucky game being an ugly one.
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@rockchalkwyo said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
We better figure out the 5 spot quick. I can see the Kentucky game being an ugly one.
ya Kentucky is improved quite a bit
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@jayballer67 said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
@Marco said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
Post tournament thoughts? We’re not horrible, we just expect perfection because we’ve been spoiled. I mean, look at our coaching tree and the coaches that our program has spun out, my god… That being said, here goes.
Dave doesn’t fit with the players on this team. He is mechanical, not fluid and slows them down. He cost us the Dayton game.
Ochai is a star and MVP of our team. Love me some Och, glad he came back.
Braun is a player. Been a Christian fan from the get go, he just knows the game and knows how to play. When we need a play whatever the type might be, he’s always there it seems.
Remy needs to play, period.
Wilson is struggle city, so far. All due to him sitting out four games? We shall see.
Bench - Clemence and Adams deserve to have some playing time, ditto Yesufu and JCL. Harris isn’t impressive thus far and I like him as a player, but the makeup of our team isn’t the same as last.
Mitch has had some good moments and Pettiford.
Now, break out the firing squad, but as I see it Dave’s minutes need to drastically decrease, Harris’ too as well as those of Wilson.
I would not start Dave. For now, I’d go with Wilson, Braun, Agbaji, Remy and Yesufu. Bench - Clemence and Adams, JCL, Mitch and Pettiford. Dave mixed in here and there, if and or when needed.
Man just seems you got a hard on for Dave. - -To save he cost us the Dayton game is probably the furtherst thing from being right that can be. THE WHOLE FRICKEN TEAM COST US THE DAYTON GAME not just McCormack. Very True Dave is off to a slow start agree , BUT WISLON right now holy crap he is crap at this point - -exactly what the hell has he done? - - go ahead I’ll wait. - - Ya I’ll agree wo know’s Dave might do better coming off the Bench for now , BUT inserting Wilson at the 5 which has been tossed about - - is not the answer - I’m not sure what it is - - -Zach is pretty Mobile can stretch but on the defensive side he is at this point a huge liability - -maybe we play KJ he is athletic but his offensive skills right now are zelch, might be able to cover and others score let him rebound - I dunno , think ya need to back off Dave a bit. We have many many other problems then just Dave at this point
That’s just my opinion. I don’t think that Dave’s abilities match the skilksets and makeup of our team. I think in many ways he hurts the team when he is in the lineup. It is not the same team as last year. You cannot ask four players to change the way that they play to benefit one player while at the same time hurting the team. If Dave had played much against Iona we probably would have lost.
I don’t have a hard on for Dave, his tits aren’t near big enough.
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@Marco said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
@jayballer67 said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
@Marco said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
Post tournament thoughts? We’re not horrible, we just expect perfection because we’ve been spoiled. I mean, look at our coaching tree and the coaches that our program has spun out, my god… That being said, here goes.
Dave doesn’t fit with the players on this team. He is mechanical, not fluid and slows them down. He cost us the Dayton game.
Ochai is a star and MVP of our team. Love me some Och, glad he came back.
Braun is a player. Been a Christian fan from the get go, he just knows the game and knows how to play. When we need a play whatever the type might be, he’s always there it seems.
Remy needs to play, period.
Wilson is struggle city, so far. All due to him sitting out four games? We shall see.
Bench - Clemence and Adams deserve to have some playing time, ditto Yesufu and JCL. Harris isn’t impressive thus far and I like him as a player, but the makeup of our team isn’t the same as last.
Mitch has had some good moments and Pettiford.
Now, break out the firing squad, but as I see it Dave’s minutes need to drastically decrease, Harris’ too as well as those of Wilson.
I would not start Dave. For now, I’d go with Wilson, Braun, Agbaji, Remy and Yesufu. Bench - Clemence and Adams, JCL, Mitch and Pettiford. Dave mixed in here and there, if and or when needed.
Man just seems you got a hard on for Dave. - -To save he cost us the Dayton game is probably the furtherst thing from being right that can be. THE WHOLE FRICKEN TEAM COST US THE DAYTON GAME not just McCormack. Very True Dave is off to a slow start agree , BUT WISLON right now holy crap he is crap at this point - -exactly what the hell has he done? - - go ahead I’ll wait. - - Ya I’ll agree wo know’s Dave might do better coming off the Bench for now , BUT inserting Wilson at the 5 which has been tossed about - - is not the answer - I’m not sure what it is - - -Zach is pretty Mobile can stretch but on the defensive side he is at this point a huge liability - -maybe we play KJ he is athletic but his offensive skills right now are zelch, might be able to cover and others score let him rebound - I dunno , think ya need to back off Dave a bit. We have many many other problems then just Dave at this point
That’s just my opinion. I don’t think that Dave’s abilities match the skilksets and makeup of our team. I think in many ways he hurts the team when he is in the lineup. It is not the same team as last year. You cannot ask four players to change the way that they play to benefit one player while at the same time hurting the team. If Dave had played much against Iona we probably would have lost.
I don’t have a hard on for Dave, his tits aren’t near big enough.
Ewwwwww , not a fan lmao
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@jayballer67 lol okay, maybe a bit much. My point being, he is soft. Wilson and Braun and Och would rebound. Even Yesufu and Clemence and Adams, Mitch too, and they wouldn’t miss chippies while being able to pass the ball and run.
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@BeddieKU23 if the possession arrow is pointed the oppositions way when the final buzzer buzzes then yes.
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@Marco Dave has been better than Wilson thus far. I’d start Dave on a short leash.
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@Marco said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
@jayballer67 lol okay, maybe a bit much. My point being, he is soft. Wilson and Braun and Och would rebound. Even Yesufu and Clemence and Adams, Mitch too, and they wouldn’t miss chippies while being able to pass the ball and run.
oh buddy no your not a bit much it’s fine just preference small and I know you know what I mean lol - as far as the other I have seen Mitch and I myself love Mitch but he has missed chippies - matter of fact airballed some.- Now one thing I will say no matter who it is – if your that close you should go up with authority everybody get the hell out of my way I’m flushing this baby stay down as Chocolate Thunder use to say - this is my time, it;s my play time. - -So far Wilson has been doing NONE of these things you mentioned going on his 4th game and hasn’t a of yet done squat - - has look pretty bad and forced.
Again even though he is not the Anseer but all in all might be the temporary answer - -Maybe we ought to just start KJ at the 5 let him rebound he is athletic, really raw offensively but maybe short term he should at least start
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I think the biggest positive for this year is that even in the games where Och seems to not be FULLY engaged, he’s providing scoring when the opportunities present themselves. Plus when he is turned all the way up, he can go for 30 and completely dominate a game.
Unfortunately, scoring isn’t what this team needs most. We all of the sudden have an abundance of scorers. Braun and Remy can get 20+ if given the looks. And despite what we’ve seen of Dave so far, if he gets it together he’s shown in the past the ability to go for 15+ from time to time.
We’ve scored over 70 in EVERY game. Traditionally, if a Self team can win the race to 70 the defense has been strong enough to get the win. I still believe this team can get there and be DANGEROUS come March.
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I’m not really that worried about big Dave. Just trying to do too much right now. He was VERY effective last year in 25 minutes per game once he got in the groove… set screens and rolls, or gets fed in the post and then first looks to dump it off in the corner. If he’s not double teamed then shoot the 4 footer. Rinse and repeat. If he’s playing against a bigger dude, then bring him out to 6 feet. Other than that, he isn’t what he isn’t.
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Wilson still seems to have covid fog brain like he did against USC. No idea what’s going on with him, but if he eventually clicks and Dave clicks then this team will be pretty darn good.
Kind of sucks seeing a loss like that to Dayton though. Will always be in the back of our minds…
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Also… in defense of big Dave. Self’s offense goes through the post (like it or not), so he ends up with the ball in his hands every time one of the new guys screws up and busts a play and he has to force something up (which is not his strength).
LOL. Not sure why I’m pointing this out, except (after rewatching that game) I think Dave was unfairly blamed for the Dayton loss. /Signing off as the president of the Big Dave fan club.
(And KJ Adams fan club)
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@DanR said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
I think Dave was unfairly blamed for the Dayton loss
Absolutely. If you watch the video in the Jess Newell article carefully, you see that Dave had inside position with a free lane to the rim when Braun got the ball. But Remy took his guy through the paint under the basket, giving the Dayton guy time to move behind Dave. CB hesitated, then passed it in anyway, and Dave tried to back into the lane and received a very iffy charge call.
Newell wrote that Self was mad at Remy for an unscripted move that disrupted the called play.
With the time left, CB should have reversed the ball to the right side, or called a timeout rather than force it in to Dave.
Watch it about 10 times and you see how Remy f’d it up.
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No doubt Remy messed up the play.
Jesse also went on to say that Dave is too dependent on the seal in order to score, which is correct. Dave took himself out of a layup by moving to get open and giving up his inside leverage that he had on the smaller guy. You’ll see Dave do that a lot
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Hell, an argument could be made - and he played great! - that CB cost us the game when he flushed it, then taunted drawing the T. We were up by 15, then came the free throws and possession and they just chipped away. It changed the flow of the entire game, no doubt.
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@approxinfinity I’m not a big fan of grandstanding and or taunting, usually counter-productive.
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@Marco especially when the other team is young and in shambles. Something to rally around.
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@approxinfinity said in Post Tournament Thoughts:
@Marco especially when the other team is young and in shambles. Something to rally around.
I am not saying no… Yeah, it rallied their team, really did. They won the tournament. When they make the NCAA’s I hope that they atleast acknowledge CB lol.
I thought when it happened, “damn Christian, What are you doing!?” Then thought ‘oh well, we’re good.’ But we weren’t. Standing by my previous analysis though, Dave was just horrible.
P.S. - Anthony Grant can coach.
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Self seems confident in Jalen Wilson. Will be something to monitor
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Dave will have better days. Part of this is just mechanical. Getting him the ball with the right spacing and at the right time. But he needs to stop shying away from contact. He needs to know how to go towards the basket without fouling. I just don’t think we should be always going hi/lo. It’s too slow and rigid. We need to play at a faster pace because we have depth and speed. Running a faster offense also makes it easier to speed up our opposition, which is what we want to do. Having more possessions in a game should favor us. Relatively low TOs and a decent conversion rate on offense.
I do like how Self is throwing our guards out there in a mostly 3/4s press.
