So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?

  • @Texas-Hawk-10 He’s definitely selective with his 3 pt looks. I could see him ending up most years with somewhere between high 30s to even another year like this one similar to aaron miles. He’s not really known as a shooting threat, but has to be just good enough to keep the defense honest.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10

    Spot on about supporting cast and how that impacts Big Dave’s numbers. Big Dave had NO HELP! He carried those numbers by himself. Our perimeter play became mush as the season progressed. Our guys pretty much forgot how to drive, very little movement (on or off ball screens, etc.) Big D wasn’t choreographed in much of the offense, like what you saw last night by both teams using their bigs on pick and rolls.

    As I have said for more than a month… I don’t know how to describe the offense we ran because it had no visible description for what is was… except BROKEN!

    The fact that Dave salvaged the stats that he did is simply amazing! And this is coming from a guy who really lacks good footwork. BTW: I hope he paid attention to players like Timme… who lived by his his swivel steps in the post. Dave can learn that. Timme wasn’t an incredible athlete… he just took the time and worked his butt off to develop smoothness in his moves. Give the guy credit for maximizing his potential!

  • @justanotherfan said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:

    I knew that if Big Dave was our main guy offensively we would be a Round of 32 team.

    Pretty BS stretch to say the tourney loss occurred as you predicted, or that it was due to Dave, not Jalen, being the focal point. So, Wilson at the 4 or 5 with the small guys would have taken us further? You predicted that having Dave at center meant Wilson would barely be able to suit up against USC due to Covid? and that Dave–after heroically propelling us out of the 1st round without Wilson to help–would be playing on a broken foot 2 days later? His being the focal point in Big 12 play meant the guards and wings couldn’t shoot 3s, make layups, rebound, or defend even a lick?

    If you foresaw all that, you need to quit law and just buy lottery tickets.

  • I know about that thread. Did the 2nd half of the season play out the way the thread discussed? Who predicted him being a 2nd team Big 12, or the conference’s Most Improved Player?Covid is Dave’s fault? Outside shooting and inability to defend the 3 are Dave’s fault? Who predicted those things?

    Forget the title. Look at the specifics…what about Dave’s play was predictable over the last 16 games to lead to the loss?

    A title about crappy and lethargic guard play leaving us a 2nd round team would have been more accurate.

    Or maybe you all just amazingly predicted everything, or perhaps some of you cannot get past thumping your chests about how right you were that Dave would be the death of the team.

  • @mayjay from Feb. 1

    “ I honestly can’t believe how bad of a year it has been given how much we returned from last year.

    Seems to me Bill put a lot of eggs in the “Dave can be an 18 and 10 guy” basket and that just didn’t pan out. And there was no plan B. But the reality is this team just cannot shoot the damn ball. Braun has gotten super soft. Wilson’s stroke is gone. Garrett and Harris are Garrett and Harris.

    They don’t have a Moss or BG off the bench who can come in and provide a spark with a couple of set plays. They don’t have a PG who can force the action a bit. They don’t have a big man who they can throw the ball into and get buckets in a grind it out game.

    This team is like playing chess with only pawns and knights. They have no pieces that allow them to attack any differently. Just the same thing over and over and if it doesn’t work, well it is going to be ugly.”

    We have shit talked the entire team all year. All some of you read though is Dave and then for some reason you see red.

    The point being made is that playing through Dave was not taking this team to the promise land. As @justanotherfan said, going five guards may end up being disastrous, but it is about the only way this team would have a chance to make a deep run.

    Then you focus on one game, and use every excuse with it for why we lost except for the reality that this team had a limited upside that a lot of us saw before the season even started, and certainly after the first half of the season.

    (This conversation is giving me some KUBuckets in its prime vibes btw).

  • @Kcmatt7

    @Kcmatt7 I think your post makes it look like I wrote that on Feb 1. To be clear, I never questioned the post strategy.

    Now, to particulars: The point is that Dave played much better during Big 12 play, particular the resurgence that took KU to 2nd place from around 6th. We earned a 3 seed based on that surge. You are blaming him for the loss at the finish as if your predictions of his being responsible played out.

    Dave went from flailing away to post-season accolades after you wrote this:

    @Kcmatt7 said in This is a Second round team if they keep playing McCormick:

    But, we shouldn’t be hanging our season on a guy who hasn’t developed much in three years like he is all of a sudden going to turn his season around these last two months.

    Maybe you don’t know what Most Improved Player, or 2nd team All Big 12, mean, but it sure seems you are still trying to justify prediction, while the coaches and media and the team itself would laugh you out of the room.

  • Dave had a good end to the season and he’s not terrible. He’s got some good offensive moves in the post but he’s not a good shot blocker, struggles to score against length, not a great shooter past the free throw line distance, and he struggled defending pick and rolls. I think the point was, we got a little over focused on playing through him and against elite teams that wasn’t going to pull an upset… I felt like we created a ton of turnovers and were more sound defensively with the small lineup. I would have loved to see a full year commitment to an up tempo style with a small lineup. I think that would have opened up more driving lanes for Garret and wilson. Allowed better spacing for improved looks for braun and ochi. Mix in half court trap and zone like Villanova does occasionally… but Self is an amazing coach so what do I know. I just think the other style had more of a chance to pull some upsets in March. Oh well on to next year!

  • @mayjay Who has said “Man we lost to USC because Dave.” Where has that been said? I know I didn’t say that.

    I think the 30 point loss to end the season in the round of 32 is about all the justification I need to say I was right about this team and the strategy of playing through Dave though… When you predict something, and it comes true, usually that means you were right. But go ahead and hang an entire argument on one single line of a post.

    I just want to reiterate - NOBODY I’ve seen is blaming the USC loss specifically on Dave. If anything people are blaming Self for force feeding him when that was simply not effective enough to make up for all of our other shortcomings.

    Again - I am not saying that Dave is the reason we lost the last game.

    Just making it clear, I don’t think Dave specifically is why we lost to USC.

    P.S. I don’t think Dave cost us that last game by himself.

    P.P.S. Really, Dave is not specifically the reason why we lost one single game against USC.

    One final time - We didn’t lose the USC game because of Dave.

    Okay but seriously Dave isn’t the sole reason we lost to USC.

  • @Kcmatt7 Yeah, but he wasn’t the only reason we lost to USC! 🙃

  • @mayjay

    Dave McCormack played GREAT down the stretch. He was as good as he could have possibly been. He played well in most every game, and even came up huge against Eastern Washington in a game we likely lose if he doesn’t play that well.

    But again, that’s the problem.

    Big Dave played at or near the top of his game and this was a second round team because Big Dave was not a good fit with the rest of this team from a basketball perspective.

    Big Dave needs to play with a really athletic power forward that can do the things that are not his strength - mainly rim protection and rebounding. A player like Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua (or Silvio De Sousa) would have been a great compliment to Dave because they would have defended the best interior player from the other team, and provided the rebounding and rim protection necessary to be successful. Once De Sousa was out, KU did not have that anymore.

    He also needs creative guys on the perimeter (think a guy like Frank Mason) that can drive and distribute to keep the floor opened up for him. Ideally, that guy is also a really strong defensive player so the other team’s PG can’t constantly put Big Dave into the PnR, where he struggles. Dajuan Harris could do some of that, but because he wasn’t a scoring threat, it limited how effective he was.

    And of course, Big Dave needed consistent shooters around him at all times. Other than Braun and Agbaji, this KU team did not have that at all.

    So the ideal Big Dave lineup this year would have been McCormack, De Sousa, Braun, Agbaji and a better scoring version of Harris (or a more confident Thompson). You notice that Marcus Garrett and Jalen Wilson, arguably KU’s other top players this year, are not on that list. And that’s where the problems start.

    To play Big Dave, you have to basically sit two of your other best three or four players. That’s not sustainable. On the other hand, if you spread the floor and play small with Wilson at the 4 or 5 with a variety of guards around, you end up not really playing Big Dave (except with the above lineup, switching in Wilson for De Sousa and accepting that you are going to give up some rebounds), but the majority of the minutes you play very small.

    As I said before, that may have gone horribly. I can clearly see the flaws and the potential to get destroyed defensively and on the glass.

    But I can also see a bunch of lineups where teams can’t figure out how to guard Wilson and Garrett at the 5 and 4. Garrett using his quickness and smarts to take advantage of slower bigs that play off him. Wilson dragging 5’s out to the three point line. The other perimeter guys feasting on the open lane, getting drives and backcuts for layups and dunks, or open threes as defenders help when Wilson and Garrett drive.

    I can see a scrappy, trapping defense that can switch more or less anything, forcing just enough turnovers and rebounding just enough to create opportunities and keep teams from grinding them in the paint.

    Could that type of team make a deep run in the tournament? Yes. Could that type of team miss the tournament entirely? Also yes.

    But this is Kansas. We don’t hang banners and hold parades just for making the tournament.

  • I think we can all agree that Dave is a good team player and has a valuable skill set with the right personnel around him. I think we run into trouble when people equate perceived absolute value of a player with blame.

  • @jayhawks2010 This team was bottom half of the country shooting this season. A small ball line up would’ve been countered with a zone forcing a bad shooting team to wins games by making shots. And no, the small ball line up wouldn’t have worked against athletic length defensively either because Jalen and Braun who typically defended the 4 and 5 spots in the small ball line up are not good defenders.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10 I guess agree to disagree. I don’t think we attack a zone any better with McCormick. I also believe Garret defends the post about as well as anyone and him and wilson would have defended 4-5 not braun. I believe we turnover other teams much higher, drive better, and play more uptempo. But who really knows bc we never did it.

  • @jayhawks2010 coughs OU GAME

  • Ahhh, now I can sleep at night. Lunardi has us a #1 seed in the midwest for next year. Whew, thought the sky was falling for a minute! LOL

  • Lol. And I thought early season bracketology was worthless.

  • With most rosters still unknown, I don’t know how you peg anyone for any seed.

  • @justanotherfan Absolute insanity, but probably generates some clicks.

  • Might help recruiting?

  • @Crimsonorblue22 yeah. As Bill would say “We can send out a flyer.”

  • @jayhawks2010

    I totally agree with your idea of going uptempo and counting less on David in the paint. Most teams we faced wanted to see us try to win a game from just winning with David. And many proved it wasn’t the answer.

    Instead of David being the focus and the first alternative… he should have been more the second and third alternative.

    We had enough athleticism to spread the floor and drive the ball… and then feed David near the basket off the guards driving… for easy baskets.

    Why didn’t we see this go down? Because our perimeter players are not developed players. They almost completely stopped driving the paint until late in games then it was Marcus. Look back at the NC game and how all of Baylor guards not only knew how to drive, but most of the time would fake the drive and then pull the setback jumper. Easy scoring space and high FG %. Learn to do that like Baylor guards… open for an easy perimeter shot anytime you want… and then see how that opens up the rest of the offense. Baylor guards were developed. Those were NBA moves…

    We need player development… otherwise… we need to recruit mostly top shelf players and hope they play well enough in their 1 to 2 years. Not a good strategy. Just ask Calipari.

  • @drgnslayr The problem with your hindsight is KU’s guards couldn’t shoot for shit and gave no reason for defenses to not focus on taking away KU’s driving because there was no reason to respect KU’s outside shooting this year. Dave was KU’s best offensive option for much of the season because KU couldn’t shoot for shit.

    Cam Martin and Josef Yesufu are good shooters that should force defenses to have to extend out. Even more than athleticism, KU needed people who could shoot so going inside to Dave doesn’t automatically turn into double or triple teams like it did last season.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10 said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:

    @drgnslayr The problem with your hindsight is KU’s guards couldn’t shoot for shit and gave no reason for defenses to not focus on taking away KU’s driving because there was no reason to respect KU’s outside shooting this year. Dave was KU’s best offensive option for much of the season because KU couldn’t shoot for shit.

    Cam Martin and Josef Yesufu are good shooters that should force defenses to have to extend out. Even more than athleticism, KU needed people who could shoot so going inside to Dave doesn’t automatically turn into double or triple teams like it did last season.

    KU had the double whammy of having guys that didn’t have either an athletic advantage or a shooting advantage. That tripped us up all season.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10

    I totally agree… but they should have shot respectable #s. They aren’t developed to handle even light defense. They don’t know how to create their own scoring space at the perimeter. It was truly sad to see basketball at Kansas with so little guard development. Pathetic, actually.

    Defense always gives an option open for offense. Guards should know how to create their own scoring by mastering several aspects. Fakes and shots from the perimeter, drives and pull ups, drives and finishes at the rack. This is college basketball and Kansas basketball! To have players that can’t do it is pathetic. They should have a bit of skill before arriving but they should be able to develop these skills within a couple years here.

    DMac is the last guy I’m going to criticize on this team because that guy has the greatest attitude and work standard. He’s a guy who doesn’t have great footwork but he has made lots of strides since becoming a Jayhawk. I totally applaud his play!

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