Grade The New Kansas Recruiting Class
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@KUSTEVE he really was!
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I like how you broke it down in scenarios. I tend to agree with your assessment that the second scenario may be the most likely outcome.
I can see Vick struggle, too… at least, early on. His movements are very fast, but he’ll be playing in a faster game than he is used to. If the game is moving faster than his mind can keep up, we can expect to see lots of TOs because he’ll be telegraphing everything. But maybe he is a fast learner… and if he is, then by late in the season he can shore up his TOs and see the game slow down for him.
He will have this “extra season” of WUG ball to work on bringing his game up to speed. I think him and Carlton have a big advantage and if they really work hard they don’t have to play like total freshmen all year… instead play like a hybrid of freshmen/sophomores. That would be a monster advantage for us in March!
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@drgnslayr Who plays at the 3? Man it would be great if Svi had a Frank-type fresh/soph improvement, Is he the starter, or does Greene slide in there? Or a split reminiscent of our 5 rotation last year? I have parked my Bragg at the 3 fantasy after watching Trey Lyles school Bragg on drive after drive on Youtube. And, is Vick going to play the 3, or is he going to play at the 2? what say you?
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@elpoyo Neither of those links proves your point. Bragg had a slip of the tongue when announcing his decision. Everyone has them, his just happened to occur in front of a camera. The twitter link isn’t dissing Kentucky, he just picked the school he had been committed to for several months at that point. It was a biased, homer pick
I would also like to know where there was any evidence ISU was ever in the lead for Diallo. Someone could probably convince me that St. John’s was ahead at one point, but that’s about it.
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You have to give credit where credit is due. Trey Lyles will be playing in the NBA in six months. When he faced Bragg, he was a year and a half from being in the NBA. No surprise that he was doing what he wanted on the floor. Bragg might be an NBA caliber player a year from now, but it is more likely that he won’t be ready for the NBA next summer. That means that you had a guy that was older and a year away from being an NBA player facing a younger guy that was nearly three years away from being an NBA player in a best case scenario. And you can’t discount that Lyles was/is the better player anyway. Lyles isn’t the type of 3 that Bragg would see on a regular basis. He’s the toughest type of opponent. Most college 3’s would be far less skilled.
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@justanotherfan So my fantasy isn’t dead?..lol.
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The 3 is the spot that is really up for grabs this year. We’ve been blessed with crazy talent at SF for so long and now it could be our weak spot on the floor.
I think Self doesn’t know who will play the 3 most of the time this year. He is going to definitely have tryouts for the job. Up for grabs, but the winner better show tons of aggression! We need a very aggressive 3 that can drive the ball, rebound and defend… using strength and athleticism. And throw on there the ability to nail the 3.
Player / strength / weakness
Svi / well-rounded skill set / physical strength and lacks aggression
BG / spot up shooter / lacks aggression, handles, ability to create his own shot
Vick / athleticism, can drive and create / freshman rookie
Perry / shooting skills and ability to create / inconsistent aggression, medium handles
Carlton / athleticism and build / freshman rookie
This is what I think up til now. I’m doubtful Perry will get a shot at many minutes at the 3, but would be great if he could.
I look at someone like Carlton and think he should be in the KU video vault studying old tape of Marcus Morris. Those skills could get him minutes at the 3 thru 5.
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@drgnslayr I’ve rolled around the thought of Selden at the 3, with Devonte running point, and Frank at the 2. Is that a pipe dream?
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I think it is a pipe dream because I view Wayne as having the same mental over-sensitivity that EJ had. You move this kind of player around and his game goes haywire. Sometimes I still imagine EJ being left at the 2 all 4 years and wonder if he would have gotten on track and a shot at playing in the league…
I think what threw Wayne into a year-long slump was partly based on the comment Self had that he could put Wayne at any position 1 thru 4. That must have sent his mind into chaotic calculations!
I’d like to see Self come out this year and announce that Wayne will be locked in as a 2 this year. I think it will make a huge difference in what kind of year he has.
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I don’t like the thought of Frank and Devonte playing a lot together because we do not know yet if Vick can be the lone ballhandler on the floor if both Frank and Devonte need a break. Remember how much Frank wore down last year when he basically played 38 minutes a game while Devonte was out with injury? We have to keep Frank fresher this year, which means that we have to be able to rest both he and Devonte regularly to keep their minutes around 28-30 each. That means they can only play about 20 minutes a game together, which is not enough for your starting/best group.
I like Perry, but question if he has the lateral quickness to handle smaller 3’s (which would be what he would see basically every night). I think Bragg is better equipped to handle that on the defensive end, which is why I like your first idea. I think we see an early season starting group of Mason-Selden-Svi-Ellis-Diallo. Once we know how healthy Greene’s hip is, he enters the mix and may even replace Svi in the starting lineup, depending on how Svi plays. Bragg will help out up front, but because he has the best perimeter skills, if Svi and Greene struggle at the 3, Bragg will be an option because Traylor, Mickelson and Lucas can’t play there and Bragg will be one of our best 7 players, so getting him on the floor should be a priority.
Speaking of the best 7, I think that is (in no particular order) Mason, Graham, Ellis, Diallo, Bragg, Selden, Svi or Greene. That’s the base rotation right now. Vick may get in there, but I didn’t see enough in his high school highlights to put him ahead of Selden, so he’s on the edge of the rotation now. I still think he has a role ultimately, but he may not have much impact until early in the conference season.
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@drgnslayr I agree. I really like the idea of Wayne being at the 3 but I don’t think it is the best thing for him and the team.
Mason may not be a “pure” point guard but I think he and Graham will split time playing the PG which is great as we should always have a good ball handler in the game. It is beating a dead horse but a lot of our early exits from the tourney can be blamed on bad guard play (not sure last year is that reason but 2014 and 2013 are examples). This year we should have some of the best ball handling we have had since 2008…or so I hope.
Wayne is due for a great season and I think he will have that if he stays focused on the 2 guard spot. That is the position he has played for the last 2 years as a starter and it is his time to shine. Wiggs is gone. Oubre is gone. Wayne should have the green light and hopefully will string together an entire season of games like Florida and Baylor and not pull the disappearing act like the WSU game.
This year’s team is exciting for a number of reasons but my #1 reason is guard play. Mason / Graham / Selden are going to be a force.
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@drgnslayr I agree with your approach completely, but I would just lock Wayne into the 3. Let Mason Graham and Svi do the 1-2 thing. Keep Wayne out of the ball handling situations as much as possible. Let him be that “big wing” that Self said he really was, with Greene as his back up. But locking into the 2 is fine with me. Svi and Greene then can do the 3 thing. The point is the same, but your argument is probably better since he has been at the 2 primarily for his two seasons here.
Either way, when Wayne’s on the court, he is nothing other than what his predetermined position is. Leave him there.
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@drgnslayr Agreed on EJ. he was never the same after going fulltime to the point. I enjoy chewing the fat on possibles in the off season - we have such a deep team with so much experience, along with some really talented rookies coming aboard. This is going to be a year to remember, imo.
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@justanotherfan Don’t worry about Graham and Mason together. Self would stagger their rest. Further, Svi is your third ball handler, not Vick.
Believe me, I like your rotation. I doubt Self does.
Here’s my rotation viewing it from Self’s eyes right now.
Starters: Mason, Graham, Selden, Ellis, Lucas.
Rotation Subs: Traylor, Svi, Diallo, Greene.
Minimal Play Sub: Bragg.
No play subs: Mickelson, Vick.
My only hesitancies are Graham or Svi starting, or Lucas or Traylor starting.
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@KUSTEVE I think he’s a 4.
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@HighEliteMajor If Landen Lucas starts over Diallo I really hope he has improved a TON as I did not see anything last year that said “Starting center for a top 5 program”. I know you hate seeing Jamari in the game and I personally feel like that about Landen. I hope I am wrong but I just don’t see a very high ceiling for him. He really is not great at anything. Good at certain things and plays his ass off but Diallo was brought in to start as far as I’m concerned.
I think the only way an OAD is worth the time and effort is if they come in and make an instant impact and put up numbers. Diallo will be a bust in my eyes if he comes in and gets 15-20 minutes while backing up Landen Lucas during his 1 year.
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@HighEliteMajor said:
some twitter link about his NCAA bracket where he picked Kansas?
Some twitter link was a link to his twitter account where he picked kansas to win it all (no problems there), but singled out UK by picking Manhattan to beat UK and even circled Manhattan. Seriously, he fills 1/4th of his bracket and then picked UK to lose in the first round to Manhattan and you think that doesn’t mean anything? Clearly something was off and its obvious he was peeved at UK and even posters on KU boards said he was big on UK, but they cooled off him and he apparently didn’t like that.
I know its all sunshine over here , but just pointing out what i see. This is afterall a message board where people can put in their opinions…right?
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@Crimsonorblue22 You’re probably right, but i can’t get that step back 3 out of my head, the drives to the hoop that remind me so much of a right handed Oubre, and the way he swats lots of shots away from behind ( trailing plays). My fear is he’ll be Perry Ellis2 on the blocks.
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@KUSTEVE think he may be worse at D than Perry. Hope I’m wrong!
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My thinking is if Wayne steps up and has a banner year, so will the team!
I know the media will be focusing on Perry… and Cheick and others… but I have a feeling our year will mimic the performance of Wayne. He really needs to get after it this year and there really isn’t any reason why he shouldn’t!
Bring it, Wayne!
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@Crimsonorblue22 We’re agreeing his defense will need work,whether at the 3 or the 4. I would hate for his offensive game to be reduced to trying to score with his back to the basket down low against beefier guys when he would present a true mismatch for most college 3s. But, if he can’t defend against the smaller guys, and they are driving right past him, coach wouldn’t have him on the floor at the 3 anyway. Good discussion.
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@HighEliteMajor Oh mercy, I sure hope you are wrong. I could see it happening but part of me thinks Self is starting to learn a little bit that he needs to get his best horses out there sooner and let them take their lumps early in the season. If he could find a way to speed up that learning curve for his studs he would in theory be able to get more out of them when it matters most at the end of the season.
It just seemed odd last year that when the newspapers and espn articles started writing a lot about Oubre’s lack of playing time that suddenly the “light” came on for him and his minutes went way up. It felt like more than a coincidence. The big time recruits will hesitate to come to KU if they think they will be buried on the bench for half the year. Actually, Diallo made it clear that he would choose a school with his biggest deciding factor being pt. The comments made me think he was st. john’s bound. At that time the recruiting class was looking dire and its possible Self gave him some sort of an informal guarantee because Diallo still chose KU knowing what the historical trend has been for others similarly ranked to him (Embiid, Cliff, Oubre).
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@elpoyo Right. You are free to state your opinions. You just run the risk of getting them refuted when they are factually incorrect; and you run the risk of engaging a discussion on opinions when others disagree. We all run that risk when we start posting.
I just think your initial post on Bragg perhaps did not reflect the opinion you stated in later posts. No worries.
Keep posting. We really aren’t “all sunshine over here.”
I’ve never been lumped in with the sunshine group I don’t think. But I’m good with that for a change.
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Regarding the original heading, GRADING THIS CLASS, I am not inclined to offer a 10 until I see some super play from our current recruits and transfer. That said, if we had gotten no one but Diallo and Colby, I would have awarded us an 8. Bragg and Vick kick us up to a 9. That ranks quite well alongside our returning veterans, whom I rank as 8.5. Hope springs eternal…regardless of el poyo’s muddled cloudbursts.
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I think you are right. I hope you are wrong.
Self has too often leaned on experience over talent. As others have said, I hope that he has learned from that. Lucas and Traylor are not as good at basketball as Diallo and Bragg. That doesn’t mean that they should never play, but it does mean that if someone has to play a minimal amount of minutes between Ellis, Diallo, Lucas, Bragg and Traylor, it should be Lucas or Traylor because they are the least talented among that group.
My worry with Svi is that his ballhandling was not good last year due to his lack of strength. He seems to have corrected the lack of strength issue, but has that had an unintended consequence (lost shot fluidity, loss of quickness). Sometimes putting on muscle is great. Other times it just puts tank armor on a Ferrari. Doesn’t accelerate anymore and can’t corner worth a darn. Not saying this happened to Svi. We don’t know. I’m just monitoring that as closely as I am monitoring the Greene hip situation.
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@justanotherfan Here’s why Self has always preferred experience over talent at least early in the season. His explanation for why Cliff didn’t start sooner was basically because Cliff was foul prone and he rather have Cliff pick up 2 fouls later in the half than 2 minutes into the game and sit for 18. It was the same deal with Embiid as well. He didn’t start until he could prove he could play more than a couple of minutes without picking up 2 quick fouls. It’ll likely be the same deal with Lucas and Diallo this year. Landen knows how to play defense without fouling immediately and Diallo likely doesn’t. We’ll probably see Diallo move into the starting line up sometime around the 10 game mark this season and hopefully sooner.
I also wouldn’t worry at all about the muscle Svi is putting on. He was listed at about 180 lbs. last year if I remember correctly, that’s just skinny for anyone his size. A player his height should be in the 205-210 range at his age and position. He’ll be stronger this year, but he’s still got another year or two to go before he reaches his ideal playing weight and he has one of the best in the business at identifying an ideal playing weight that doesn’t compromise ability. He’ll be just fine in that department.
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I agree in theory that Self doesn’t want his young guys getting into quick foul trouble, but the problem is that you aren’t getting any more time out of them either way.
Let’s say that a guy doesn’t start because you are worried that he will foul early in the game and end up on the bench. So you sit him until after the first TV timeout and he checks in with about 15 minutes to go in the half. He has already missed the first 5 minutes, but he has zero fouls. He picks up two fouls before the next TV timeout and has to come back to the bench. You got three minutes out of him.
A better solution is just to play the guy and let him adapt on the floor. If that means he fouls out against Northeastern State, that’s fine by me. I’d rather him learn against those guys so he’s available against Texas and Oklahoma than try and ease him in.
In college hoops, the easiest opponents are going to be at the beginning of the schedule, in the first 10-12 games. I’d rather Diallo foul out or miss the last 17 minutes of the first half against those guys than have him gone against Texas when we really need him. JMO.
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@justanotherfan The thought process on not starting a foul prone player right away is that if you wait, they can see how the game is being officiated first and then determine how they can play from there…
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@justanotherfan @Texas-Hawk-10
And it allows the player to get in a rhythm. If you were to get two early fouls and sit for 17 minutes then halftime you have no flow as to how the game is going anymore. But, if you wait and let them play the next 5 minutes, they can get a feel for the game and come out ready to go in the second half.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree with you on the 15 pounds of muscle-at 17 his body is just maturing and he was thin to start with. I am happy about it-that was the plan. I’d venture to say if he had a twin brother who wasn’t a jock the kid would naturally gain some weight (not 15
and muscle purely from increased testosterone kids experience at that age.
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Cliffs biggest problem was he didn’t want to take any responsibility for his actions and he was a mamas boy! I bet his mom interfered with his relationship with HCBS and held him back more than anything. I remember how much HCBS talked about the Morris twins mom and how she stayed in KS to help Robinson with his sister his last year at KU. I never heard Self talk about Cliffs mom once?
As a coach you don’t need any outside influences conflicting what you are trying to instill in the kids you are trying to make men out of! I believe the reason Cliffs minutes were minimal is because HCBS had more than he could stand from Cliff and his mom. She will be the reason he never makes in in the NBA. She has already done plenty of damage but I don’t think she is done! Moms that continually make excuses for their children produce piss poor adults that usually end up behind bars or dead!
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I think that may be a bit harsh unless you have some pretty significant evidence of something beyond the loan, etc. Saying that Cliff’s mom is “an outside influence” isn’t really fair. She’s his mother. She’s not an agent. She’s not a runner. She’s not some Johnny come lately or a hanger on. She’s his mother.
I know next to nothing about her other than this whole loan thing. Saying that she interfered with Self and will be the reason he doesn’t make the NBA is a huge leap given the limited facts we have, unless you know more than what has been in the public view. Not saying that you need to divulge if you do, because I believe everyone is entitled to privacy, even great athletes. But making a blanket statement like that really isn’t fair to Cliff or his family.
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@justanotherfan She might as well be his agent or runner. She is already cashing in on his earnings. He had a full ride, food, stipends, housing, clothes, etc. Who benefited most from the loan that was taken out on his future earnings? AND if I posted the things he has on FB, twitter, and conducted myself during interviews the way he has my mom would kick my butt! Its just my view on the situation harsh or not.
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@Statmachine you see cliffs new “baby”?
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Embiid did have a future NBA player in front of him when he came in so his situation is different from Diallo’s. Diallo doesn’t have a future NBA Center in his way.
I think with Self this year, he’s going to role with his most talented team. No question Diallo will have to adjust as all freshman do, but if we all agree that Diallo is an upgrade to Lucas why would you sit him. Conventional wisdom from Self says he sits early, I’m hunching he plays Diallo because he knows how talented this kid could be. No reason to baby him.
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I think your “mom comments” concerning Cliff’s mom sound harsh… but that doesn’t mean what you said is not true!
I think a lot of parents have totally screwed over their kids by getting too involved in their activities.
If I can think of parents I would consider correct in how they remained supportive of their athletic children I would look at Andrew Wiggins’ parents. They seemed to be there for him and offer him advice from their experience, but in the end, they instilled responsibilities in Andrew to make his own decisions and they weren’t fiddling around with Self too much to try to influence to meet their desires… an often very selfish attitude parents can have!
I don’t know if Cliff is a “momma’s boy” but if he is and he lets her continue to influence his future, he is in trouble. This is HIS future and he is supposed to be entering manhood and taking some responsibility for himself.
The more I write about this, the more your comments sound less harsh about Cliff’s mom. I like to remain respectful about anyone’s parents because it feels like prying… so my statement isn’t about Cliff’s mom as much as it is about parents of athletic children.
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@Crimsonorblue22 No I haven’t seen the new baby, but I bet that wasn’t his fault either? Sorry guys I just think Cliff’s attitude and behavior is pretty poor for someone that has been blessed like he has.
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@drgnslayr Cliffs moma moved close to KU to be with her son. Now I don’t know if she had a 9to5 but If I were a betting man I would bet she did not have a JOB during her short stay. Who do you think paid for that?
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I don’t know… maybe borrowed money?
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That “baby” seems to be parked in a nice residential area. Is there more to the “baby” story? Like a sweet-azz crib?
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How many in here see Cliff’s future as being financially sound?
I’m not trying to address this with any racial tone. There are great examples of financially sound athletes in all races. But there seems to be a push in Cliff’s life to buy goodies as fast as possible… and perhaps it is more than just Cliff wanting goodies…
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I know they have 7 kids so where are they if she’s in Lawrence? I wondered about that house too. Even thought he might be joking. How dumb can one be?
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Many agents will “advance” money to clients and will get paid when the contract goes through. However, considering that Cliff does not have a contract as of yet, it looks like a risky proposition. As far as the ca,r and as cars go for pro-athletes, this is not really not that extravagant.
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@Statmachine You are assuming a laundry list of characteristics about Mom that I’m not convinced of. I personally think if the truth were known, Mom was an accomplice to Cliff’s plan to cash in sooner than later. I simply refuse to believe any lending organization would loan a nickel on somebody else’s money w/o getting some form of commitment from the bread winner. I doubt Cliff’s mom had the wherewithal to put something like that together w/o help from her son, who obviously knew a lot more than he’s letting on…imho. The villain here isn’t Mom…it’s Cliff. Mom helped with the money laundering, for sure, but I think this is 100% Cliff’s baby. Just my opinion, fwiw.
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@KUSTEVE You’re probably right but my mom would have NEVER let something like this jeopardize my extremely bright future.
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It is extravagant if he doesn’t get a contract. And I wonder if there is a house involved, too. The car is parked in front of what appears to be a pretty nice house. It is unlikely he gets a contract going in the second round. He’ll be headed to Dead-League where players go to die and get paid essentially the same wage McDonald’s employees make. This is likely the scenario for Cliff. I hope he breaks through…but he shouldn’t be buying anything yet on future earnings that are a total 50/50 shot of coming through.
Cliff already made a huge error in judgment that is going to cost him a fortune (most likely) regarding getting a hold of some quick cash. That is the basis of why I think he is in for hardship ahead. We can blame his mom… but I’m not going to do that. Cliff is the one that had to step up and be responsible.
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Cliff and family have shown in spades that they don’t have the judgment to make decisions that will pay in the future and are mostly thinking on the here and now. A really bad combination for player whose future status is pretty much in limbo.
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@Statmachine No doubt. This was obviously a lottery ticket moment for the whole family.
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All I know this is a sad, sad story!
