My crisis of faith in Bill
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Good conversation here. Enjoyed reading it.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Well I guess it depends where you or how you were brought up. When I was growing up worthless & useless is ummm pretty dam close to the same thing.
Now tonight Udeh which they was playing Baylor by the way , pretty dm good quality opponent, no Saint Marys sisters of the blind-- Like I said Had 16 points- - - – - 15 rebounds and 3 blocks - wouldn’t really call that even useless. You see there ARE things a player can do without scoring lights out. For some reason so many people seem to think that all that matters is scoring and they don’t take into account all the other aspects of the game… Which if you can’t be happy with a 15 rebound performance & 3 blocks well then I’m sorry you can’t appreciate all faucets of the game, that’s on you. I’d take Udeh in a heart beat-- - -I’d take Zuby in a heart beat it’s a win, win either way as far as I’m concerned. -Again you should be able to have a Udeh type on the team without him having to go out and put big scoring numbers THAT’S what there are four others on the floor that is or are capable of doing that.
Every player on the team has a role to play— your wings score, your point guard s role is to control the offense & runs the offense - -your 3 & 4 have roles to play/ Score, and your five their responsibility is to more then most is to rebound, & rim protect – and if they score more that’s a bonus but not a requirement. Again you have or should have 4 other players on the floor who should be capable of doing that.
It’s ok I’ll still or would take Udeh-- -and I would take Zuby- either one would be great, I don’t have to choose one or the other. - it’s a Win , Win- -You take Zuby— that’s great he is a great choice too, I think it was bad to let both of them get away, – Thing is Udeh did get to the free throw line-- -Udeh did get rebounds, sure it wasn’t Houston , BUT still like I said Baylor isn’t anyone to laugh at either - - -they are a legit program also and Udeh doing this on Baylors home Court against pretty dam good athletes --Have a good night
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Selden, Wiggins, and Ellis were starters. White didn’t need to start to be part of the rotation. He could have played off the bench without usurping any of those players. That is a basic and objective fact and I am surprised I have to explain that.
Self used an 8 man rotation that season. 4.5 back court players and 3.5 front court players. Tharpe, Wiggins, Selden, Ellis, Embiid, Mason, Black, and Traylor. Ellis is the 0.5 for each level since he was the 4, but mostly played on the perimeter. Mason, Black, and Traylor were the rotation players off the bench that season.
Embiid, Ellis, Black, and Traylor’s minutes that year were very close to 80 minutes per game so that was the front court rotation with Landen Lucas getting some spot minutes whenever Embiid was injured.
Mason primarily subbed for Tharpe and Selden with those 3 combining for 76 of the 80 minutes at the two back court spots. Wiggins was at 33 mpg that season basically leaving about 7 minutes per game for the wing spot and 4 more back court minutes for a grand total of 11 extra minutes per game of spot duty. Frankamp got the majority of those extra 4 back court minutes since he was a back court player and not a wing. All three of Greene, Frankamp, and White brought the same skill set to the table, outside shooting. But none of those three were very good at that skill that season. Greene shot 33%, White 32%, and Frankamp 31% from 3 so the one skill each was supposed to bring to the table was something none of them were able to actually do that season.
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@SlimShaddy54 Worthless and useless do not have the same meaning so that means somebody failed you in life since you don’t know the difference between those two words. Udoka Azubuike was also useless outside of 5’ from the basket, but that doesn’t he was a worthless player. It simply means his skill set was non existent more than a couple of step away from the basket, same as Udeh.
Your also using Udeh’s career high in points to claim he’s better than Zuby when Zuby is averaging 14.5 ppg this season. What category that’s relevant for their positions is Udeh better than Zuby in? Also, St. John’s has also played Baylor this season and Zuby went for 22 and 10 that game
Zuby is averaging 14.5 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 2.0 bpg, 69% FT shooting on 6.3 attempts per game and is at 62% shooting inside the arc and 57% overall while playing 29.7 mpg.
Udeh is averaging 7.4 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 1.5 bpg, 54% FT shooting on 3.9 attempts per game and is at 61.7% from the field with no outside attempts.
If you’re going to keep arguing the guy averaging 7 and 8 for a mid to low tier P5 schools is better than a guy averaging 15 and 8 for a 1st place P5 team, then you truly need to readjust your evaluation abilities because you might be the only person who would take Udeh over Zuby at this point.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 White got 6 mpg his soph season here and 30+ at Nebraska and Syracuse his junior and senior season and shot over 40% both places. White set a Syracuse season record with 109 3-pointers.
We talk a lot about Self getting to see what players do at practice. And we say that what we see in games in just the tip of the iceberg, incomplete data. We say this when kids are doing well and we think they deserve more time. It goes both ways. When kids underperform in limited minutes and then go to other P5 schools playing big minutes and shooting 40% from 3, it doesnt look good.
Selden’s shot looked broken. He spent several seasons cleaning it up. He never became a 40% 3 pt shooter. His eFG% his sophomore season was .461 and he averaged 29 minutes a game. Whites was .559 his sophomore season.
There was a role for White, Self just didnt see it.
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@approxinfinity Andrew White was never the better overall player between himself and Selden. His role at KU was always going to be coming off the bench playing lesser minutes because of who was ahead of him. Transferring was the best decision for White because he wouldn’t have had his cup of coffee in the NBA staying at KU.
None of this means White was a bad player because he wasn’t. It just means that the mid level 4 star recruit got recruited over by a pair of 5 star players who were better overall players than White and there wasn’t a pathway to starters minutes for him at KU until potentially his senior year.
Let’s say White never transfers and sticks at KU for his last two seasons, what’s his path to becoming a starter? Let’s just acknowledge that White was never going to start over Selden and Ellis, so for what would’ve been his junior season, his competition for minutes was Kelly Oubre, Greene, and Svi. I could easily see him playing over Greene and Svi, but I don’t see him staying in front of Oubre all season. That would probably put White in the 20 mpg range his junior season and going down as Oubre kept developing.
Let’s say at that point that White then decides to stay for his senior season at KU which would’ve been the 2015-16 team. There is an open starting spot that season that ultimately went to Devonte Graham so that would be the battle for White because we know he was never starting over Ellis and Selden. Would White have been able to beat out Graham for that starting spot in 2015-16 if he stayed all 4 years at Kansas?
So again, Andrew White was never a bad player, just someone who was here at a time when Self was at his peak in recruiting and White was stuck behind players who were just better overall than he was so he made the correct decision to go elsewhere to give himself the best chance to reach the NBA which he did.
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@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Texas-Hawk-10 White got 6 mpg his soph season here and 30+ at Nebraska and Syracuse his junior and senior season and shot over 40% both places. White set a Syracuse season record with 109 3-pointers.
We talk a lot about Self getting to see what players do at practice. And we say that what we see in games in just the tip of the iceberg, incomplete data. We say this when kids are doing well and we think they deserve more time. It goes both ways. When kids underperform in limited minutes and then go to other P5 schools playing big minutes and shooting 40% from 3, it doesnt look good.
Selden’s shot looked broken. He spent several seasons cleaning it up. He never became a 40% 3 pt shooter. His eFG% his sophomore season was .461 and he averaged 29 minutes a game. Whites was .559 his sophomore season.
There was a role for White, Self just didnt see it.
Didn’t Brannen Green basically take the role from White?
Also, the staff wanted to keep White if I recall. But he wanted a larger role that we couldn’t give him.
Last but not least, there is a reason why he fit the Syracuse team. He wasn’t nearly as exposed as a defender in that zone.
And like I’m a huge Andrew White fan. I thought he was going to be a star here, and was very sad to see him go.
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@Kcmatt7 Greene was one of the best shooters I can recall playing for KU. Too bad he was such a hot head. It was heart warming to see he helped save a someone from a car wreck after getting let go, but I was hoping it was him that he saved.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 What the hell is wrong with you dude ?- - do you have a reading comprehension problem ?- -No where ever did I say I would take Udeh OVER Zuby, I said I would take Udeh in a heart beat - -I said I would also take Zuby in a heart beat either way I said was a WIN , WIN. – I wasn’t comparing Udeh’s Stats to Zuby’s stats holy shit-- I already knew Zuby stats were better thanks. -I’m not trying to nor did I say I would take UDEH OVER Zuby.- -I said I would take Udeh myself —I personally would of loved to keep them both , but knew that wasn’t happening. I stated multiple times that either way Udeh OR Zuby it was a win , win
I think we are done here. You saying someone has failed me in life , that’s my mom and dad you talking about when you say that , because they are the one’s who always said as much. Don’t really appreciate you making this personal and talking shit like that about my Parents. I’d be careful about what you say before you know who your saying it about.- - THANKS
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@SlimShaddy54 @Texas-Hawk-10 guys can we take it down a notch please? This has been a fun thread and would hate to have it get locked because people’s head explode.
Thanks.
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@approxinfinity You got it cause I’m done on this topic with this individual , not appreciated what was said but sure ain’t nothing but a thing Sorry
As a matter of fact , think it’s time to take a break from here , I know that will make a lot of people rejoice, have a party it’s all good. People don’t like what I have to say- -so be it Thanks approx you have a good board - well for the most part-- -ROCK CHALK
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@SlimShaddy54 you’re good man. Take a breather.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 @Kcmatt7 yeah, i fell asleep thinking about how that Syracuse zone might have benefited White. Selden def had the higher ceiling on the defensive end.
So Self recruits White and Greene and then declares that threes are fools gold. Thats their biggest asset as players. I am not going to pin this all on Self. Things change and we are always trying to win. Players become available and you recruit over other players. It happens. And yes, looking back the talent pipeline at that time was strong.
But it was unfortunate for White nonetheless.
I think the biggest moral of the story imo is “if you arent a good defender don’t play for Bill Self”. It just is not going to end well.
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@approxinfinity Greene was also anticipated to be the better player as well over White. White was the 69th ranked player in 2012 in what was a down recruiting cycle for KU. KU’s 2013 class was an all timer with Self landing four 5 star recruits including Greene and KU’s best player out of that 2013 class wasn’t even one of the 5 stars, it was their lowest ranked player, Frank Mason.
That 2013 class featured Wiggins, Selden, Embiid, and Greene as 5 star players, and Frankamp and Mason as 4 star players with Mason barely outside the top 50 in that class.
It also never helped White’s case for minutes here that he wasn’t a good 3 point shooter at KU. That made it easier to budget him out the door.
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That year Traylor, Greene, and Frankamp combined to play 957 minutes. All of these minutes came off the bench. I would argue, that giving a substantial part of these 957 bench minutes to Andrew White III would have made him a part of the rotation. There are others who, bafflingly, disagree with this. This is the last statement that I will make about the feasibility of giving Andrew White rotation minutes 11 years ago.
I would have liked to see AW3 get rotation minutes, as he proved at later stops that he was a hell of a player. Oh well. Sometimes things just don’t work out and that is fine.
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@Jhawk69 no stone unturned!
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
That year Traylor, Greene, and Frankamp combined to play 957 minutes. All of these minutes came off the bench. I would argue, that giving a substantial part of these 957 bench minutes to Andrew White III would have made him a part of the rotation. There are others who, bafflingly, disagree with this. This is the last statement that I will make about the feasibility of giving Andrew White rotation minutes 11 years ago.
I would have liked to see AW3 get rotation minutes, as he proved at later stops that he was a hell of a player. Oh well. Sometimes things just don’t work out and that is fine.
Jamari Traylor was never part of the discussion until this post you just made. Traylor was the 8th man and 4th big in that rotation. He also had zero affect and White’s minutes that season because they didn’t play the same position or sub for the same players. Traylor subbed exclusively for the 4 and 5 that season season while White exclusively subbed for one of the perimeter spots.
You’ve also been ignoring the fact that Frankamp dod not play in 8 games that season because Self chose not to sub him in and that Brannen Greene did not play in 7 games because Self chose not to sub him in. Even if White got all of Frankamp and Greene’s minutes, that still leaves about 25% of the games he would not have played in because Self didn’t play more than 8 players in those games.
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I have agree with @MoonwalkMafia and have alluded to it several times that certain players have such a long leash compared to others. Cliff Alexander should’ve played much more over Jamari after the first semester. Both Udeh and Zuby are better than KJ IMO on that matter.
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@dylans man Greene definitely on my top 5 what could have been KU players list. Had the stroke and height to be one of the greatest spot up 3pt shooters of all time but couldn’t do anything else even to an average level to stay on the court.
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@kjayhawks It was generally trending that way starting around mid January after the first couple of Big 12 games. Cliff also played at the 5 spot quite a bit so there were times they were both on the floor together. Overall though, starting around mid-January, Jamari’s minutes were trending downward while Cliff’s were trending upwards.
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
That year Traylor, Greene, and Frankamp combined to play 957 minutes. All of these minutes came off the bench. I would argue, that giving a substantial part of these 957 bench minutes to Andrew White III would have made him a part of the rotation. There are others who, bafflingly, disagree with this. This is the last statement that I will make about the feasibility of giving Andrew White rotation minutes 11 years ago.
I would have liked to see AW3 get rotation minutes, as he proved at later stops that he was a hell of a player. Oh well. Sometimes things just don’t work out and that is fine.
I thought AW3 should have gotten run over BG. But hard to really complain when BG made 50% of his 3s lol.
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Sometimes I think we all get caught up too much on a player’s stats. There still exists the “eye test” and we all know Self goes off his eyes. Note that we don’t see what he sees. He’s at practices and is constantly informed by assistant coaches.
I expressed some love for Udeh. That wasn’t just based off his recent stats. He was playing with visible enthusiasm and he helped lift his team. It’s something we often sorely lack. Then I fall asleep at games.
Should be an interesting game tonight. We better come ready or we’ll take another L!
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@drgnslayr I would love to see the guys and put in a full hard concerted effort of 40 full minutes of solid Basketball tonight.- Haven’t really seen that yet. Solid defense - - -low turnovers - – good rebounding — & a solid night of shooting the three, Would love to see that , give them a little confidence in themselves… - -Let’s not have them looking past tonight towards Saturday & Houston. If we do liable to get our ass beat.
Would love for them to get a solid win tonight THEN look towards Saturday , we got a chance if we win, we have a chance to make up some ground and have more confidence & Momentum going into Saturday. -We know Saturday will be rockin/juiced, Just take care of business tonight , get that Road win- - --ROCK CHALK
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My faith in Self is not at Zero anymore, meaning it is negative.
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I would just remind people we won a Natty in 2022 and we’re favorites in 2020.
Fresh blood next season will be welcome, but let’s not act like the guy lost his touch already. You can’t even write off this season yet. A lot of basketball left.
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@Kcmatt7 Newbie here. Thanks for lifting up Sunday spirit here. After watching the game again, I really like the combo tower HD & FB - hoping coach can make the best use of them from hereon. This could be the best combo centers in the nation. Imagine HD can use his soft touch plus another option to throw high pass just like what we saw yesterday, or seal for FB to finish strong off of a feed from any guards. We will be unstoppable if Harris can keep making 3s, helping others to score. I don’t think Storr is as good as advertised/was in Wisc. Been watching this site for a while and love what y’all have here. Appreciate the info, learning, useful insights for other Hawks fans here.
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We have a lot to take away from the Houston game.
First, and foremost, we figured out where our offense needs to come from… mostly these 4 players:
Hunter, Flory, Zeke, and Rylan. If AJ gets it together, he can be added to this list.
Knowing what we know now… it’s time to put a lot more focus on getting these players points. Juan already knows this… he only had 12 assists in this game!
I’m coming away from this game with optimism. The loss should help toughen up this bunch, and believe me, besides just gelling as a team, they need toughening! I’m starting to see a path for a nice March run! First time this year I see a path!
Once again… the spotlight is on KJ. When he returns. We will either sink or prosper. If he instantly gets his 30+ minutes back and then craps out on the stat sheet, it will be an early March exit. If he comes back realizing his role will be to bring even more energy to the current mix… we could go far!
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@jay4ever thanks for speaking up! Glad to have you with us.
@drgnslayr I think you’re right on all counts.The combo of Hunter and Bidunga blends so well on both ends of the court.
There is a path!
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We all know KJ plays great d, boxes out religiously. and helps move the ball around on O… he is an energizer bunny, but we all know he not a real natural scorer and we all know he will get plenty of minutes… so what does he need to do better? Rebounding?
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@Bosthawk as @drgnslayr alluded KJ being a voice of support for Bidunga would help the team, though i dont know if anything like that will happen. KJ isnt going to magically get longer and he is not an inside presence against long teams. He just isn’t and wont be.
That said, as for rebounding, on the offensive side he needs to fight for inside position and not try to run in for the board when there is open space.
He needs to see his 5 fouls as an asset and be ultra aggressive. Dial it up a notch. We have depth now at the 4, use it.
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I feel like we’re all more or less saying the same thing regarding the rotation when KJ comes back. One of the most frustrating things about the way we lost yesterday is that we got some big answers with Griffen and Bidunga, and honestly Storr too…but in a bad way. If you could guarantee me that KJ will not average more than 15 minutes from here on out, I would take it in a heart beat. If Storr is averaging 17 minutes, give 10 of those to Griffen. Obviously adjust situationally–no problem with riding the hot hand. But we saw where our offensive bread is buttered yesterday. Of course, the question is whether or not Self has seen what the rest of us had.
I honestly think Self got too much blame for how things transpired yesterday. He had a game plan yesterday, and it worked! KU led for 90 percent of the game. We were the better the team. Regarding free throws, it’s not like they don’t practice them. Your veteran leaders have to make those. They know that. Same thing with inbounding the ball. These are guys who have been playing at this level for 5-6 years. That stuff cannot happen.
HOWEVER, in the press conference after the debacle when Self said we were hurt by KJ not being out there I almost threw my computer. I’m worried that is a sign of what he plans on doing: bring KJ back and pretend his absence has been the problem.
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@Bosthawk I like KJ’s energy, especially on defense. But I also see potent in him scoring as well especially last several games, end of season. He’s sort of disappearing again this season in offense. I kind of comparing him with Jwan Roberts - the guy started with 1 ppg but he’s found his signature through drills, drills and drills. I’m pretty sure KJ can provide extra offense with his 7’-8’ short jumpers or floaters effectively. I see him as a strong player who can help team score, regardless whether they need points or not. It’s a win-win. Scouts will value his offensive skill and of course, we’ll be more dangerous comes conference.
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I’d prefer KJ off the bench, but just getting Flory consistent minutes should pay dividends.
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I went back and looked at Embiids minutes. He ramped up very quickly.
I would argue that Flory may be even more important to this roster than Embiid was to that one (also critical).
Every kid is different, obviously, and every team different. I just wonder why Bill ramped up Flory seemingly much slower than Embiid other than devotion to KJ. I mean, maybe he was caught up in thinking Hunter and Flory couldnt play together. Maybe he underestimated Flory. But thats curious because Embiid was much more under the radar than Flory. Signs still point to KJ bias.
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@approxinfinity I’d like to hear from journalists (Newell?) asking coach, too (…maybe he was caught up in thinking Hunter and Flory couldnt play together) - lol… KJ’s on sideline has brought some light to the darkness in KUMBB, IMHO. Let’s hope coach will find the right formula going forward, we’re pretty darned close. Hopefully, FB’s 19pts against top dog Cougars gave enough testament to coach that he’s grown up, he’s ready to bring this team to the next level.
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@jay4ever maybe you mean Matt Tait. Jesse Newell is w/the Star.
