Looking back at Hilton
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The lowdown
Self let’s his upper classmen guys get away with a million mistakes but they are “his guys with a leash” even though their results are more L’s and blowouts than ever before
Brings in other upper classmen and treats them like freshman
Oats ain’t coming here and programs licking their chops watching Houston and isu run things while another blue blood becomes the next ucla/indiana
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@approxinfinity Sorry for the late response, the Y was calling for a late night swim so I turned it off. Maybe this is true for a lot of schools like them but team construction is different. Not too many 5 stars playing there. System players seems to be Gard’s MO and he seems to be pretty good at constructing a team. Right now they’re fairly deep, but guys coming off the bench are not big time portal guys, but a UWGB guard Kamari McGee who has been amazing, or John Tonje, again not a huge name but is probably an all american, 2nd team, 3rd team? He’s pushing the right buttons this year it looks like.
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“It’s always the same equation for us in Ames…. Can we take care of the ball? Hilton is a tough venue and if we start this game with turnovers and fall behind the temperature in Hilton rises from screaming fans and becomes easy for them to roll us! If we keep it to around 10 total turnovers in the game, we stand a chance. We need to keep Hunter in the low post and space properly.”
Hunter was pure awful… very anemic. It’s so hard to win when he plays outside the paint. His high ball screens do nothing. He hasn’t hit a three in centuries, he has no chance at a rebound, and his strength is in low post scoring, but he allowed himself to get pushed around in this game. Didn’t help the refs had some bad calls. His “arm bar” foul was ridiculous. Self should have thrown a fit and drew a technical to see if his guys would wake up.
Our guys came in here feeling sure they were going to lose. It’s that kind of game we get from several foes in AFH. I bet we go 10 in a row losses in Ames now. It’s already been 3 in a row. The mental conditioning has begun.
KJ didn’t have a great game but I give him kudos for bringing effort above the rest… except for Zeke, who was his normal greatness!
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@kjayhawks said in Looking back at Hilton:
wtf are you doing Juan? Jesus looking like a freshman
x100
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Hey, it sucks to lose. But losing like that is maddening and frustrating. F-U-G-L-Y.
I lost track of how many times we got a turnover and within a split second turned it right back over.
But, we had a chance to be in this game all night. Stupid turnovers and bad decision making.
I think starting Shak has positives and negatives. The defense is obviously better. But, today at least, we suffer with really only ONE offensive threat on the perimeter. Shouldn’t take much for teams to try to shutdown Zeke. Leaves zero room for Hunter to operate and gain good position.
So, if you’re starting Shak, you gotta start Rylan and not KJ, who is a non threat on O.
Self has his hands full. I wish he would think about offense. You have to score more than the other team to win.
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And of course — fun with the box score.
Sums it up:
FTs
KU 4-11
ISU 18-25
Game over.
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Hunter made two decisions to take it easy and not over exert himself and ISU hustled and got possession. One was followed by an ISU three dagger. They played us tougher than we could handle but in spite of our bad passing we still got good looks but couldn’t convert. It looks like Juan, Zeke and a top five recruiting first year class of three and four stars who we thought and they thought were likely one and done guys. Our basic offense just looks like a road to nowhere. I go into games thinking it will finally click and the pent up talent will explode. I haven’t given up but hurry up before I give out. Of course it is hard to win when Cyclone Jones who shoots with one butt cheek facing the basket is making 30 footers.
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@rockchalkjayhawk that shows how aggressive we ain’t. Not sure I remember a team of KUs hovering around single digits for FT attempts.
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@Zabudda said in Looking back at Hilton:
Hunter made two decisions to take it easy and not over exert himself and ISU hustled and got possession. One was followed by an ISU three dagger. They played us tougher than we could handle but in spite of our bad passing we still got good looks but couldn’t convert. It looks like Juan, Zeke and a top five recruiting first year class of three and four stars who we thought and they thought were likely one and done guys. Our basic offense just looks like a road to nowhere. I go into games thinking it will finally click and the pent up talent will explode. I haven’t given up but hurry up before I give out. Of course it is hard to win when Cyclone Jones who shoots with one butt cheek facing the basket is making 30 footers.
I posted earlier this season, every year we have ran 4 guards since 2010 we have made it to atleast the elite 8. The years we ran the 1980s high low we were setting at home after the first weekend.
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KU’s season point distribution (% of total):
- 3-pointers: 26.9% (ranked 292)
- 2-pointers: 61.0% (ranked 4)
- Free throws: 12.1% (ranked 364 - this is dead last)
Had a friend send this to me and I stared at it for 10 minutes like it was a modern art masterpiece (of terrible). This would have been bad in 1996. We cannot win this way.
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@MoonwalkMafia Uh uh uh yeah we can cause you won’t play every game good so uh uh when we play bad we just gotta make sure they play worse
The problem is we play bad a lot (more blowouts in 2.5 years than ever before). Self’s philosophy is iowa football: win 17-14 - vs. we need to be Oregon or Ohio State with athletes and let them play.
Other site nailed it - we win big games early like the Duke game but then you hear Self say “oh well we didn’t play any defense tonight”. He fails to recognize we won that game as Hunter sat the last 8 minutes……he’s that oblivious
He’s won consistently with defense but only has the 2 titles after more 1 seeds than you can imagine.
Playing the way we do though it makes sense with how the tourney goes. Tony Bennett, Iowa football - that crap never works in any sport for multiple titles unless you have a ton of luck like 2022 (Bill’s words).
If Bill can’t be successful unless you have guys in the system for 3+ years he needs to retire. He treats jr transfers like freshman which he can’t grasp not to do.
Rather than taking us to new heights after his heart he’s taken us the opposite direction while supposedly getting the players he wants with no ncaa cloud and great nil.
This is all on him and he won’t ever fix it because he won’t switch the rotations up because of his trust and loyalty
As @approxinfinity is seeing we come back with kj on the bench and he puts him right back in and their lead expands.
Bill hasn’t seen clear for well over 3 years now and without remy and kalkenbrenner he’d be looking even more foolish
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Dajuan is atrocious. He is the worst PG of the Self era by far. KJ played with effort but he isn’t very skilled so at some point it becomes harmful. Hunter wasn’t into it at all yesterday.
At this point I’m just looking forward to next season and getting some new kids in the program.
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@MoonwalkMafia said in Looking back at Hilton:
KU’s season point distribution (% of total):
- 3-pointers: 26.9% (ranked 292)
- 2-pointers: 61.0% (ranked 4)
- Free throws: 12.1% (ranked 364 - this is dead last)
Had a friend send this to me and I stared at it for 10 minutes like it was a modern art masterpiece (of terrible). This would have been bad in 1996. We cannot win this way.
To not get any free throws while taking mostly 2s is astounding.
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@kjayhawks said in Looking back at Hilton:
@Zabudda said in Looking back at Hilton:
Hunter made two decisions to take it easy and not over exert himself and ISU hustled and got possession. One was followed by an ISU three dagger. They played us tougher than we could handle but in spite of our bad passing we still got good looks but couldn’t convert. It looks like Juan, Zeke and a top five recruiting first year class of three and four stars who we thought and they thought were likely one and done guys. Our basic offense just looks like a road to nowhere. I go into games thinking it will finally click and the pent up talent will explode. I haven’t given up but hurry up before I give out. Of course it is hard to win when Cyclone Jones who shoots with one butt cheek facing the basket is making 30 footers.
I posted earlier this season, every year we have ran 4 guards since 2010 we have made it to atleast the elite 8. The years we ran the 1980s high low we were setting at home after the first weekend.
This statement is objectively false.
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@TYOHawk The more I look at the program since 2013 the worse it actually gets on how he handles players and his system
The best teams as the other poster pointed out were 4/1 and yet he’s talking about playing 3 bigs because he’s so frustrated with our wings. Maybe coddle them like you do the big 3 and they’d produce better.
If he Embiid or Oubre’s incoming DP he needs to be “retired” next year because he will have effed up yet another roster.
He’s going to value Elmarko and McDowell and somehow Clemence might get minutes because they know what he wants and practice well versus all the young guys and 1-3 upper classmen transfers he brings in and gets mad at how they do things in practice.
He runs a program like the 80’s
He’s gaslit the program for multiple years that Juan is the truest pure pg and incredible - people said “self knows more than message board idiots” and actually the people watching the games from their house could see it clearer
He thought Hunter is the next Jokovic and he can’t defend a ball screen or the rack, roll quickly to the hoop or hit 3’s consistently. Yet Bill knows more and plays him
He’s gaslit us that kj is as impactful to a game as Ochai was. He had the game against Duke and watching Duke that would go different if we played again. Every other game he can’t score outside a dunk, kills all offensive spacing (doesn’t matter Juan can’t beat his man off the dribble consistently anyways) and can’t rebound.
He plays a pg who isn’t a threat to score and can’t shoot - when he shoots a lot the other team loves it. And he plays a 4 man that is zero threat to score and other teams don’t guard. We then can’t score but he doesn’t care because defensively he’s happy getting beat 74-57. Oh but with 4 minutes left it was a 6 point game. Did you all watch? We never had control, we’re down the 15-11 and NEVER took the lead again. OH YEAH BUT WE WERE RIGHT THERE BABY AND ALMOST HAD THIS ONE!
Yet Self never sits these three - thinks they are his best shot to win and has yet another year where we aren’t even conference contenders let alone a title
Hope you all keep those title hopes alive and keep on believin because you clearly are seeing the same stuff I have for 3 years and somehow expecting different results which is the definition of insanity
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Frank - Josh team - Oregon loss
Graham, Svi, Newman team - nova final 4 blowout as we dumped it into big doke to start, didn’t guard nova out to the 3 line and got trounced
2022 team with JW at the 4 - reversal to nova and revenge
What’s false about it?
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If you are talking about my statements then you may be right. But you cannot mean that about Butt Cheek Jones’ side straddle release!
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@kuballin10 said in Looking back at Hilton:
Frank - Josh team - Oregon loss
Graham, Svi, Newman team - nova final 4 blowout as we dumped it into big doke to start, didn’t guard nova out to the 3 line and got trounced
2022 team with JW at the 4 - reversal to nova and revenge
What’s false about it?
@kjayhawks said since 2010 correct? 2011 and 2012 each used high-low with 2 bigs as the base offense with an Elite 8 and title game appearance. 2013-2015 were all 4 guard line up teams and none reached the Elite 8 and two of those teams were 9 and 10 loss seasons with second round exits. Also, Doke didn’t play in the 2018 Final Four because he was out for the season with injury.
So, an objectively false statement just like yours about being done posting for the year, yet you’re still posting.
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@Zabudda Not your statement.
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@rockchalkjayhawk Alot of that is from 2nd chance points and ISU attacking the rim-- -that’s something we don’t seem capable of or just flat don’t want to do - good reason for that separation
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My blood pressure is so much better after giving up college basketball. I’ll still watch college football even though the transfer portal and NIL evil exists, but at least in football you get to watch them knock the crap out of each other. That’s always fun. See y’all August 23rd.
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@kuballin10 said in Looking back at Hilton:
@TYOHawk The more I look at the program since 2013 the worse it actually gets on how he handles players and his system
The best teams as the other poster pointed out were 4/1 and yet he’s talking about playing 3 bigs because he’s so frustrated with our wings. Maybe coddle them like you do the big 3 and they’d produce better.
If he Embiid or Oubre’s incoming DP he needs to be “retired” next year because he will have effed up yet another roster.
He’s going to value Elmarko and McDowell and somehow Clemence might get minutes because they know what he wants and practice well versus all the young guys and 1-3 upper classmen transfers he brings in and gets mad at how they do things in practice.
He runs a program like the 80’s
He’s gaslit the program for multiple years that Juan is the truest pure pg and incredible - people said “self knows more than message board idiots” and actually the people watching the games from their house could see it clearer
He thought Hunter is the next Jokovic and he can’t defend a ball screen or the rack, roll quickly to the hoop or hit 3’s consistently. Yet Bill knows more and plays him
He’s gaslit us that kj is as impactful to a game as Ochai was. He had the game against Duke and watching Duke that would go different if we played again. Every other game he can’t score outside a dunk, kills all offensive spacing (doesn’t matter Juan can’t beat his man off the dribble consistently anyways) and can’t rebound.
He plays a pg who isn’t a threat to score and can’t shoot - when he shoots a lot the other team loves it. And he plays a 4 man that is zero threat to score and other teams don’t guard. We then can’t score but he doesn’t care because defensively he’s happy getting beat 74-57. Oh but with 4 minutes left it was a 6 point game. Did you all watch? We never had control, we’re down the 15-11 and NEVER took the lead again. OH YEAH BUT WE WERE RIGHT THERE BABY AND ALMOST HAD THIS ONE!
Yet Self never sits these three - thinks they are his best shot to win and has yet another year where we aren’t even conference contenders let alone a title
Hope you all keep those title hopes alive and keep on believin because you clearly are seeing the same stuff I have for 3 years and somehow expecting different results which is the definition of insanity
He keeps calling Juan a winner but we’ve gotten our ass kicked more during his era as PG than ever before in Coach’s history. If it wasn’t for Remy we would’ve never saw the second weekend during Dajuan’s tenure.
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Hard to see Zach being on the roster next year if I’m being honest
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I’ll dive into the teams another time but your flat out wrong again about 2018
Who’s this #35 that played against nova? You don’t remember them talking about his Mom coming over to see him play?
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/401025886
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@BShark Ya I don’t think Zach will be back, actually surprised he stuck this year
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The thing that bothers me most about last night besides the poor in-game management of rotations and reading the room of who was playing well/wasn’t, is the fact three Seniors, two of them 5th/6th year guys did not have a lot of poise during critical parts of this game. The turnovers last night were awful from Juan and Hunt in particular. This is a reoccurring issue that happens in big games like this, especially on the road. We’ve seen the ceiling of all 3, there is nothing untapped to unlock from any of them. Maybe they will learn from this but I’m not optimistic there.
Hunt’s effort last night was piss-poor on both ends. There’s a pattern there with him when things don’t go well. Competitiveness especially.
Juan missing 5 Free Throws at critical points of the game. Unfortunate I guess is the nice way of putting it.
Hopefully KJ is okay with that shoulder, but he was not good on offense around the rim. 4 years later with his athletic ability and still not finishing strong and through contact.
Zeke is our best offensive player and yet he is rarely the focus. Flory is one of our best 5 players and yet he’s a sub playing out of position when Hunt stays in. What a mess
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Also wanna say I hate that Zeke is on this roster. I know the front of that jersey means something to that kid and he’s played his ass off. He’s just stuck on a roster where the circle of trust runs this roster.
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@TYOHawk said in Looking back at Hilton:
Also wanna say I hate that Zeke is on this roster. I know the front of that jersey means something to that kid and he’s played his ass off. He’s just stuck on a roster where the circle of trust runs this roster.
You don’t think the front of the jersey means anything to Juan or KJ??
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@Woodrow said in Looking back at Hilton:
@TYOHawk said in Looking back at Hilton:
Also wanna say I hate that Zeke is on this roster. I know the front of that jersey means something to that kid and he’s played his ass off. He’s just stuck on a roster where the circle of trust runs this roster.
You don’t think the front of the jersey means anything to Juan or KJ??
Considering we’ve been getting our ass kicked during most of Juan’s tenure not really. For KJ I do think it means something so I’m wrong for omitting him but Zeke is a Lawrence kid.
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ESPN radio just said Self has lost by 12 or more points 40 times in his KU career, 13 of those have came in the last 3 years to date. Thats over 32% of blowouts in a very short time frame for Kansas basketball. We all ain’t used to that for sure
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I meant to say 2015 in terms of the high low garbage not working. Slice it up any way you want to its pretty damn evident it isn’t working and hasn’t since 2011-12. Bill Self this point has lost his damn mind IMO.
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Doesn’t it kinda suck that for the last four or five years every argument comes down to KJ and Juan?
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@rockchalkjayhawk said in Looking back at Hilton:
Doesn’t it kinda suck that for the last four or five years every argument comes down to KJ and Juan?
They’re kind of holding the program hostage.
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@rockchalkjayhawk yes to the point where people on X are asking what pictures they have of Self he doesn’t want to come out. The same radio show was saying Juan maybe the worst 4 year starter 5th year senior in NCAA history and it’s hard to argue at this point.
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Wow! How low can you go? Ask some of the players what KU means to Juan, CB, Och, Wilson, Big Dave, Kevin, KJ, ask last yrs team or Gurley and Hanni. These players and guys know a hell of a lot more than you do!
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@TYOHawk Yeah problem is Self is the only guy on the planet who doesn’t see it that way
In his mind Juan is one of the greatest KU pg’s and led them to a national title - because he’s said that for now 3 straight years and his actions of playing him so many minutes confirm it
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@kuballin10 said in Looking back at Hilton:
@TYOHawk Yeah problem is Self is the only guy on the planet who doesn’t see it that way
In his mind Juan is one of the greatest KU pg’s and led them to a national title - because he’s said that for now 3 straight years and his actions of playing him so many minutes confirm it
Legit laughable take. We would’ve been out in the second round if it wasn’t for Remy. Creighton was leaving Dajuan open all first half. Self has had favorites before ie Jamari Traylor and etc. But the love for the core 3 and them being in the circle of trust is making for some unwatchable basketball.
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@BeddieKU23 I agree probably with you on 99% , I also think in a lot of these bigger , more intense games these guys get sped up, which is not good. They get caught up with better more athletic players and then turns into a cluster F - - - , Has to be changes BUT were not going to see it --Coach has that bull headed streak in him, which is not good.
I’m still a huge fan of Coach but dam got to fix this as much as i hate to say the article I read and then posted the thread here titled about harsh was spot on.- -I think coach has to turn that leash lose and let these guys go. - - How can a kid feel comfortable/confident when he spends more time looking over at the scorers table every time he makes a mistake, worried about getting yanked,
Dam straight does it suck mistakes are being made? – hell ya it does, but we see mistakes galore from Dickinson – even Juan and yet you don’t see either getting yanked out in a flash- -let these kids play through the mis mistake and learn- - the mistake is in the past and move on There is no way a player can focus on his game- - -and play to his capability if he is scared to death the first time he screws up he is getting yanked.
All your doing with that approach is destroying any self confidence the kid may have to where he becomes a shell of himself and then what?- -Plus you can believe this or not BUT sooner or later this kind of happenings is going to get out and players aren’t going to want to come play here and go through this bullshit --you don’t think if another player who is considering KU if they talk to AJ and or Griffen or whoever and ask how their experience here and playing for Coach Self was, you don’t think they won’t say it sucked and your an idiot if you come and go through this- --Ha guess again
Now watch come Sat and if we curb stomp KSU and play well then all you hear is - -ove see people just over reacting we are fine we don’t have issues- - - umm YES we do and they need fiixed and fixed now
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in Looking back at Hilton:
Wow! How low can you go? Ask some of the players what KU means to Juan, CB, Och, Wilson, Big Dave, Kevin, KJ, ask last yrs team or Gurley and Hanni. These players and guys know a hell of a lot more than you do!
You are missing the point young lady. No one is saying these guys don’t care about KU. Maybe Storr doesn’t care about anything or Hunt didn’t last night. A bit of advise that I got from a successful college coach “My job is to find someone better than my current players. The players job is to push themselves to the level that I can’t do my job”. Coaches have to put their team in the best position win games regardless of whom you like better or have had on your roster longer.
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@kjayhawks reread it!
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I think people are overcomplicating what’s going on here. An offense with Harris and Adams each playing 30 minutes a game is never going to be better than mediocre because of how limited they are offensively. It’s exacerbated by Shak Moore (and I like him) not being a good shooter and David Coit being on a legendary cold streak shooting the ball.
Griffen needs to be playing 30+ minutes (currently only averaging 18), and Storr needs more minutes too (also averaging 18). I realize Storr has sucked this year, but he’s a career 35% 3pt shooter and is probably our best hope of getting to the FT line more often if he can manage to get his act together.
Defense has been pretty good for the most part, but Hunter has the mobility of a 40-year-old man and good teams like Iowa St that force Hunter to defend PnRs, rotate, and recover are going to get a lot of open looks/layups.
Basically I think Zeke and Rylan need to be leading the team in minutes, KJ’s minutes need to go down significantly, and Juan’s minutes need to go down slightly. And if Coit continues to play like this I’d rather see Passmore get minutes.
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@rockchalkjayhawk It is a little tiresome. A little unfair too, that players worse than them take none of the blame. But that’s the way the cookie crumbles.
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Imagine thinking you actually know what is going through Bill’s mind. The narcissism required for that is enormous.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich said in Looking back at Hilton:
I think people are overcomplicating what’s going on here. An offense with Harris and Adams each playing 30 minutes a game is never going to be better than mediocre because of how limited they are offensively. It’s exacerbated by Shak Moore (and I like him) not being a good shooter and David Coit being on a legendary cold streak shooting the ball.
Griffen needs to be playing 30+ minutes (currently only averaging 18), and Storr needs more minutes too (also averaging 18). I realize Storr has sucked this year, but he’s a career 35% 3pt shooter and is probably our best hope of getting to the FT line more often if he can manage to get his act together.
Defense has been pretty good for the most part, but Hunter has the mobility of a 40-year-old man and good teams like Iowa St that force Hunter to defend PnRs, rotate, and recover are going to get a lot of open looks/layups.
Basically I think Zeke and Rylan need to be leading the team in minutes, KJ’s minutes need to go down significantly, and Juan’s minutes need to go down slightly. And if Coit continues to play like this I’d rather see Passmore get minutes.
Been saying this for over 2 years now on Juan and KJs minutes
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@rockchalkjayhawk said in Looking back at Hilton:
Doesn’t it kinda suck that for the last four or five years every argument comes down to KJ and Juan?
Can we all agree that Hunter is the most immobile upright ferret we’ve ever seen run? Just looking for something to unite the board…
Son of Thom, Son of Mickel, Son of Dickins.
All the Hunters I know.
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@approxinfinity Hunter doesn’t seem to have a spec of athletic ability at this point.
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@approxinfinity yea, sure. but…
He doesn’t need much athletic ability to get his shot off. Great touch. He needs teammates or a coach with the ability to get him open near the hoop. Not 15 feet away from the hoop where his unathletic ability slows things down. Spacing!
It’s happened before. It can happen again. Maybe.
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Hunter was decent until he picked up his second foul. After that, he was playing not to commit any more fouls which manifested as him being very unaggresive last night.
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@BShark Honest question - has he not said all those incredible things about Juan? And does he not play him an obscene amount of minutes in big games which confirms what he said?
Not sure how a poster is a narcissist but maybe the coach who’s ego has never ever been checked and is experiencing legitimate failure with his favorite pg of all time - needs a reality check about his analysis???
Just maybe?
