Has Bill Self Lost This Team?
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I feel Bill is to blame for the lack of shooting on the roster. And hell, he was planning to run off Vick, the best shooter.
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Besides vick nobody has that shooters mentality on the team. Both Dotson and Grimes are at least a year away from developing it at this stage. We have young guards and it shows
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BeddieKU23 said:
Besides vick nobody has that shooters mentality on the team. Both Dotson and Grimes are at least a year away from developing it at this stage. We have young guards and it shows
Agree. I can’t think of a good Self team that had so many young guards.
Now, if guys stay, this team could be really special the next couple years as Dotson, Grimes etc develop.
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The next 5 games and how this team responds will shape the season. I could legit see them going 0-5 and having a 6 game losing streak but it will probably be 3-2 somehow.
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Hopefully the transfer U BS will end after this pieced together group. I dont see us missing the NCAAs, win 4 more games and we are in because off of our name. I’m terrified of how bad Self has struggled with recruiting. I think we are gonna have a down year and that’s ok. It was gonna happen at some point but I’m thinking it goes farther than one year.
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kjayhawks said:
Hopefully the transfer U BS will end after this pieced together group. I dont see us missing the NCAAs, win 4 more games and we are in because off of our name. I’m terrified of how bad Self has struggled with recruiting. I think we are gonna have a down year and that’s ok. It was gonna happen at some point but I’m thinking it goes farther than one year.
I agree with the transfer part. I’d be pretty okay with not taking many more transfers. Grad transfers to fill a need perhaps.
Definitely too many quality wins to miss the tournament, barring an insane flameout.
I disagree that, assuming Self stays this turns into a prolonged down stretch. If Dotson and Grimes are both back, they will be better next year. BUT, we absolutely need guys to come back. I don’t think any kind of spring miracle is happening in recruiting.
So if next year the 8 man rotation is Dotson, Grimes, Garrett, Agbaji, Silvio, Doke, Dave and whoever is better between Braun and McBride… That’s a top 10 team. Might be a lot to expect two of Doke, Dedric and Silvio to be back though. I think next year the guard rotation will be quite good. The worst case scenario for bigs is Dave and Mitch, which is pretty terrifying.
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My Bold prediction going forward is the Kansas State Sweeps us and very convincingly. I’m watching them now and they play so much harder than we do. Which is the case most years unfortunately but we dont have the talent to half ass it this season.
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@BShark agree we could be decent next season but Self has to up his recruiting game. We need good guards and bigs at the same time not either or.
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kjayhawks said:
@BShark agree we could be decent next season but Self has to up his recruiting game. We need good guards and bigs at the same time not either or.
Next year could be an excellent mix. Team would be stellar if Doke and Silvio are back.
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@kjayhawks not really his fault about doke. We have good guards, just young. Pretty sure Silvio isn’t his fault either. Grimes was mvp at the USA games. Injuries have killed us.
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@kjayhawks Dotson and Grimes were both top level recruits. Fans need to stop assuming High School success equals instant college success.
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@BigBad not compared to the guards dook has.
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BigBad said:
@kjayhawks Dotson and Grimes were both top level recruits. Fans need to stop assuming High School success equals instant college success.
It took Mario, Rush and Russ Rob awhile too.
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@kjayhawks so u want one and dones? Better switch up schools then? Huh?
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@Crimsonorblue22 I want whatever wins championships. Lol
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@kjayhawks I didn’t think you were a one and done guy, more frank and dg
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We are never landing 1,2,3 of any recruiting class. Unless we switch to NIKE.
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kjayhawks said:
@Crimsonorblue22 I want whatever wins championships. Lol
Under Bill, it’s experienced guard play.
Evidence: all his FF appearances.
2008: JR, JR, SR, FR
2012: SR, JR, RS JR, RS SR Walk-on
2018: SR, SR, RS SO, JR
BigBad said:
We are never landing 1,2,3 of any recruiting class. Unless we switch to NIKE.
Even then I doubt it. KU would, imo, be below Duke, UK and Oregon in their pecking order. Perhaps under AZ too.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I am not I feel we get guys that dont play hard and ain’t OADs too much.
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@kjayhawks who do u think didn’t play hard today?
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BShark said:
This team could still collapse enough to maybe almost miss the tournament. Either way this is a first weekend exit team.
Ya I would have to agree this could very easily be a 1st weekend exit. They just not really know for sure what I’m looking for but they’re just missing some things. They don’t do a very good job of taking care of the ball , we lost our inside man – -Dedric isn’t an ideal 5 - gets bullied quite abit bad matchups defensively.
Some questions to ponder , How many still think Quentin is a OAD ? - - not me , which ends any chance we MIGHT of had with Stanley coming, - -Quentin may not be a OAD but kind of wonder if he still tries to go and or if being so frustrated that transfers out. - - -Does Doke come back ? - - umm NO , I don’t think so - - just don’t think he can improve his stock that much and could risks yet another injury. - -does KJ come back ? - -probably not , unless Dedric comes back and that’s probably not happening.
This team just lacks that stud – that take over guy - -demands the ball, We can’t close any games - - how many times did we have a chance to close out the game - - bad shot - -forced shot - -this team just lacks that savy. - - as far as the title to this thread - - my answer to that would be – No Bill hasn’t lost this team – just pretty simple he doesn’t have that ONE or TWO get the ball to guys – Vick to inconsistent , makes bone head plays - - example today at the end - -frustrating year this year , truly believe the streak is ending for sure
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BShark said:
BigBad said:
They just cant shoot. It really is that simple.
I think passing and team chemistry are bigger issues. Vick going nutso in the non-con helped mask that somewhat.
Agreed hugely about this team’s passing ability. 6 assists on 24 made FG’s today. There’s too much one on one with this team and they’re not good enough to do that.
This team isn’t patient enough to work the ball to the third or fourth side to get an open driving lane. They want to drive into double teams and that leads to bad things. That’s a huge part of the adjustment to college basketball. Just about every player was the best player on the court by a mile in HS and now when they go against players equal to or better than them, they don’t have the tools to compensate.
This is Grimes biggest issue. HS basketball in Houston is weak. For being the 4th biggest city, there’s very little elite basketball talent coming out of this city. Combine that with Grimes playing for one of the more affluent schools in the city in a district with no competition that rarely puts teams deep in the state tournament, Grimes and with and against crap in HS. I went to a couple of his games last season because I work about 20 minutes for his HS, his teammates were trash players. I think College Park lost in the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs last year despite having the best player in the state.
It’s a huge adjustment for these kids and we saw it when Mason and Graham first got here and learned how to play and win and we’re seeing now with Dotson. Mason and Graham didn’t have upperclassmen mentors and neither does Dotson and that really slows the development of this team.
Vick isn’t a positive influence overall as we’re seeing the same issues this year that have kept him from becoming an elite player and it’s his BBIQ. Tyshawn had Collins, Collins had Robinson, and Robinson had Miles to learn from. Mason had sophomore Tharpe and Graham was second fiddler until his senior year. Dotson has Charlie Moore to learn from. I would seriously consider redshirting McBride next year and letting him learn and keep him and Dotson 2 years apart in eligibility and then sign another PG when McBride takes the reigns to develop.
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@BShark I think you are a good dude and you know your BBall….but come on…0-6???
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Hawk8086 said:
@BShark I think you are a good dude and you know your BBall….but come on…0-6???
I did say I think they come out of the next 5 games 3-2. But it’s possible. Every single game in that stretch is very losable.
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kjayhawks said:
My Bold prediction going forward is the Kansas State Sweeps us and very convincingly. I’m watching them now and they play so much harder than we do. Which is the case most years unfortunately but we dont have the talent to half ass it this season.
Hard to believe KU and KSU have the same league record after 6 games. Did not see the coming.
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I was going to create a post about the naysayers, but this forum will do.
Bill Self has not lost this team. He has one big that can play right now. That’s it. One.
He has two freshmen guards playing that we’re learning are good but not great. Today wasn’t very good for either obviously.
He has two other mercurial talents. Vick is a head case and while I want to blame him some for the wild shots at the end, I was really hoping for a TO before that time. I would have liked our AA to touch the ball. Garrett is showing some offensive chops lately, but I don’t think we can count on him doing this every game.
Our bench contributed 4 points today. Can’t blame them too much because we were counting on 2 guys who really can play who aren’t. Tough to blame coach for Silvio or Doke.
I was really disgusted by both our end of game play and our comments on the board. Maybe those are spoken out of frustration, but goodness. People were just giving up on this team. Seriously. Unbelievable. I trust our coach. He’s in a tough spot for sure, but some people need to take a step back and really think about their over the top statements.
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Back off the ledge. Self hasn’t lost this team. This team is flawed, but is likely getting an elite player back and it’s not likely we don’t make a 3 and turn it over 13 times in a half. We’re not great right now but we’re a really good defensive team and that keeps you in every game. Even after that abortion of a game KenPom has us almost in the top 10. Don’t be that guy.
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@FarmerJayhawk you think it’s “likely” SDS comes back?
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@Woodrow yes. Of course I’m assuming the NCAA follows its own rules so maybe I shouldn’t be.
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Nah, nothing to lose really. It’s still a bunch of misfits that haven’t come together yet. Still trying to fit the pieces together. This is his biggest challenge in awhile. I don’t see anybody mouthing off. Vick and KJ (to me) are the only potential troublemakers.
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The Sky. Is. Falling.
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@wissox but I would like to see some semblance of an offense besides bad ball. We had 6 assists. Lots of one on one/two/or three.
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@Bwag I agree, maybe I should have tempered my post with some concern over this team too. Except for the cupcakes, they haven’t had a blowout win all season.
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It’s a bad loss…no big deal. Believe in self and the jayhawks.
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I didn’t think this was a bad loss at all. WVU played pretty good defense. They defended the point well, especially at the end, and we had no answer. What gives me hope is our defensive play, which is keeping us in nearly every game. The defense is consistently good, and defense can get you far in March. I hope the team hurts. No pain, no gain. But I’m ok.
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who knows maybe this loss wasn’t as bad as it looked. - -we have announcers saying that West Virginia isn’t as bad as it has shown , you could see this coming a mile away had just got blown out - had KU coming in - we always play bad there it seems.
Then you look at the other games from the league today. - -TCU which blew this same West Virginia team out by 31 - -losers to K-State by 10. - - - Record wise anyways Texas you would have to say up set Oklahoma - Oklahoma 13- 4- - -Texas 10-7. – Then you have Baylor beating Tech - -maybe the whole league sucks - -a bunch of average teams that no one is that much better or worse then the others - -just gonna beat one another up like last year we had some pretty good teams - -I don’t know - -I all know we better be ready Monday - -Although I could easily see this teams losing - possible 4 more league games for sure - -and the way things are going right now – Next Saturday - - Kentucky will kick our ass - the way they have been playing - -and then the way we play. - -Dedric gonna be in trouble, with match up - they got to many bigs send on out - -bring one in - -not good
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He hasn’t lost the team. They seem to play hard, imo. He just doesn’t know how to coach underclassmen guards.
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@Kcmatt7 Self knows exactly how to coach young guards. They just don’t become finished products right away. Mason and Graham each took until their third years to become elite guards.
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We have two freshmen guards and Vick is what he is…he is not a leader. Bad plays down the stretch.
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Self know how to develop them over years, absolutely. But he’s clueless as to how to coach with them in game when they’re this young. And most of it is his own strange trust issues.
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Kcmatt7 said:
Self know how to develop them over years, absolutely. But he’s clueless as to how to coach with them in game when they’re this young. And most of it is his own strange trust issues.
The compounding issue is elite guards only stay one year and Bill still chases them. In the case of Grimes, he ended up not being elite.
This team has three very good players in Dedric, Garrett and Dotson. Though Dotson obviously played poorly yesterday. A FR playing badly on the road who would have guessed? The other two starters are atrocious at defense and rebounding. I think Agbaji is closer to being a dude than Grimes is at this point, but he finally played like a FR yesterday as well. Vick is certainly needed for his shot making, unfortunately so you have to keep playing him.
KJ is at his best when he plays at the 4 with Dedric at the 5. If I were Self, this would be the only time I play KJ. He doesn’t work with Dave.
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Wow. A tough loss to a desperately hungry team in a venue we’ve always struggled in regardless of how many mvps we have, and I’m hearing we might lose out and not make the dance???
Hey I hate losing as much as anyone else but jeez, get a grip and pull up those big boy pants.
Could we lose the rest of the conf games? Of course it’s possible… here’s a little secret… come closer… each game, two teams of kids take the court, and play as well as they can. For both teams, sometimes kids get injured, or are fighting a cold, or get overwhelmed, and other times the basket looks as big as a trash can and everything falls. But here’s the secret… one team has to lose. I know Crazy huh? It happens so infrequently to us we tend to forget that little fact.
But that’s what makes it exciting. We could play Div II and beat the crap out of everyone every night, but that wouldn’t be that fun would it? You know why? It’s because you took out all the variables that make them game exciting. The parity of the best playing the best.
Bill Self is a brilliant HOF coach. But even he can’t control or foresee all the variables that swirl around a game that moves lightning fast. Yes even brilliant men make mistakes and… gasp… lose games.
So now dry your eyes and accept that you too, have no way of accessing and successfully evaluating the variables that swirl around every game. You see a tenth, maybe a hundredth of the variables Self sees.
What you can do is look at the few variables you can actually see and couple that with past performance and outcomes - and make projections. Which is what this board is all about.
And while I rarely agree with all the nervous nelly naysayers projections, I totally respect their right to post them. Just as I have a right to post my respectful counter opinions.
And looking at all the rabbits Self has pulled out of that magic crimson and blue hat year in and year out… I say anyone who thinks our chess master is going to just rollover and let the Big 12 have their way with him and his talented, if green, Top 20 team, hasn’t been paying much attention the last 14 years.
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Does anyone think Quentin is a OAD and that he will leave after this year?
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@jayballer73 He shouldn’t be, but we’ll have to wait and see if he’s hellbent on it or not. Hopefully he takes the Wayne Selden route instead of the Josh Selby route.
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it’s getting too late to evaluate a team at this point. Most teams have what they’re going to play for the remainder of the season. We are fast approaching the second half of the season. Self needs to go with his best small and big ball lineups. This team doesn’t seem capable of making the necessary adjustments and turning corners. We’ve all played with various line-ups.
Dotson
Garrett
Grimes
Vick
DLaw
Big ball:
Dotson
Garrett
Grimes
DLaw/Meeotch
Big Mac/Meeotch (hope Silvio can play any game now, but looking less likely now than before)
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NO HE HAS NOT LOSS THIS TEAM
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I think Grimes needs a reality check on his game. He’s making some big blunders at key times and those often not only cost us points or possessions, but are big momentum killers.
WVU isolated him on that finally play because he is our weakness on defense.
I still want to support the freshman, but he represents a big weakness on our team right now. He needs to find a way to better engage in D1. Not sure I know the answer for him but I see what is happening and just trying to point that out.
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My ongoing rant for Silvio may never be answered.
Gawd we need Silvio cleared yesterday. What little the NCAA has responded to concerning the whole ineligibility, reinstatement plan is they will stall and claim they will “review” the request. We all know what “review” means. Before, I thought there was a chance. So, now there is really no choice. If you play Silvio and we win the B12, the NCAA is holding KU hostage. They will rule to vacate the wins. Or, Self keeps him on the bench and they simply do not rule at all. They are controlling this by being the good guy, but then when it comes to ruling, they have the power to rule against KU as they deem necessary. This is too much power. I really believe KU should have the option to play him and if they rule against KU, no wins should be vacated. He is simply declared ineligible. I guarantee you if KU plays Silvio, the NCAA will kill themselves to rule him ineligible. But IF Self keeps him on the bench, and the evidence shows there was NO violations, KU needs to sue the NCAA for abuse of power, liable, and slander. You who claim KU is to blame are giving the NCAA way too much credit. They are the authority and do govern this matter. KU has little to no way of acting within any guidelines. The NCAA has way too much power in these matters. Is it KU’s fault the NCAA is unable to investigate and make a ruling within a reasonable amount of time? There’s a lot of precedence that says KU may have a way to play him, but can and will most likely be held accountable for any actions against the NCAA at this point.
KU is screwed whether he plays or not. This brings up another question. I really don’t understand how the FBI has any jurisdiction with college bball violations. I didn’t realize the NCAA was a federal entity or at least fell within federal laws. The NCAA is capable of interviewing ADIDAS. They don’t have enough teeth to bite and draw blood. So, they some how utlitze the FBI? Did ADIDAS commit a federal crime? Who is the victim? The NCAA? KU? They ruled KU was the victim, but Self is holding Silvio out? The real criminals were sentenced and justice was served. But now the NCAA wants to apply their punishment. So, not only do they use the FBI, but they also used the Grand Jury to do their job too. This is insane abuse, fraud, and flat out lunacy.
I’m beating a silent drum. I will never understand how the NCAA is using information the judge clearly declared as inadmissible. Also, the judge in the Grand Jury declared programs, coaches, and players were not on trial. He made it crystal clear the ADIDAS defendants were on trial and they were found guilty. The sleazy lawyer plays the KU card and now all that information is being used against KU. I don’t understand how the NCAA can be allowed to use information gathered by the FBI. The FBI did their job and now they want to use the FBI’s evidence. All the manpower, resources, and investigations all belong to the FBI, not the NCAA.
Catch my drift or am I just being obtuse…is it deliberate? Love this line.
I’ll let you make the parallelisms.
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Love this movie!
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jayballer73 He shouldn’t be, but we’ll have to wait and see if he’s hellbent on it or not. Hopefully he takes the Wayne Selden route instead of the Josh Selby route.
I fully agree, surely he has enough sense to realize that he is just NOT ready now if he comes on like Gang busters and finishes these last what 12-13 league games and has a really good tourney then ya , but I just don’t at this point see it happening.
Having said that I think if he comes back then if there was any chance of Stanley coming that will be gone - - but I’m ok with that too. If Quentin comes back for a Sophomore year - -would be ok.
What about Doke ? - -you think there would be ANY chance that he comes back ? - - I kind of have mixed feelings about it - -not sure which way I would feel - -on one side feel like we sure could use him - - -on the other kind of feel he is dwarfing any chance for other bigs that might want to come. - -I just don’t really think for his NBA stock purposes coming back is not going to help him that much - -Sorry but I just leary about him making it in the NBA anyways - -he is a old school big in the NBA - -he can make money ok but just don’t feel like it is going to be here in the States.
