Mitch
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@Kcmatt7 Right. Mitch is pretty much who we thought he was. I remain highly disappointed in Moore, KJ, and Garrett (with Garrett b/c I expected offensive progress). Grimes of course is struggling, but we really need more from these three.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 Right. Mitch is pretty much who we thought he was. I remain highly disappointed in Moore, KJ, and Garrett (with Garrett b/c I expected offensive progress). Grimes of course is struggling, but we really need more from these three.
Garrett is one of the worst offensive players I’ve ever seen play D1 ball. He’s 6’5 and coordinated and smooth and athletic. But he can’t even finish at the rim. It’s a mystery.
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@Kcmatt7 he was finishing last year, jeez what happened to him? His throws looked good though. Huge improvement.
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@Kcmatt7 Concussion effects still?
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@mayjay that’s why he’s hitting his throws? Lol jk
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@Crimsonorblue22 I was wondering more about whether his drives are affected by trying to keep away from contact with his head. Or if he winces anticipating contact.
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@mayjay @Crimsonorblue22 The way he finishes is timid anyway. Last year, this year. Just makes for more volatility in result I think. He doesn’t go with authority. Finishes are mostly swooping back board layups where he’s angling away a bit. He doesn’t seem try to get to the rim. Contrasting him to Newman, who could get there (but not dunk) – Newman seemed to go at the rim aggressively. Or like Mason or TT. Or a physical comp like Releford. Garrett seems passive on this drives most of the time to me. Players with a scoring mentality attack. Garrett doesn’t demonstrate that mentality.
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The problem with Garrett and Grimes is that they stayed in Texas for their HS careers. Texas is not good HS basketball. The level of competition just isn’t there. A lot of players here are very soft and afraid of contact. Grimes played in a district made up of some of the most affluent parts and schools in Houston, and those kids are as soft physically as one would imagine.
It’s not something that Self or Hudy can fix either. It has to be the players who decide they’re no longer scared of contact before anything really changes with them.
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Garret the problem ?? Yikes Not even close. He’s keeping us in games with all the other things he does. The main problem is 1) grimes apparently can’t figure out D1 ball. 2) most of the team had yet to learn how to play consistent D and communicate on switches and learn to box out. One of the most inconsistent defenders is Vick. D Lawson also is slow on defense. Good thing they can score. Team needs to get better on fast breaks and D
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What did Grimes do in game one that he hasn’t been able to since? I don’t understand. The talent seemed to ooze from his veins that night. I’m puzzled because I was thinking this guy is going to be our best freshman in quite a while.
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@Bosthawk Garrett is incompetent on offense. No way that you can say that is not part of the problem. We need offense and the guy shoots like my neighbor. I’ve mentioned this for a while — Garrett off the bench on a differently composed team would be a perfect fit. Here, the lack of offense sticks out like a sore thumb.
But he’s been the best of the guys not named Dedric, Vick, or Dotson. So you’re right, he’s not near the biggest problem.
Looking at the PER for our players. Garrett is 13.3. That’s Jamari Traylor territory.
However, Moore is 8.1 and Grimes 6.4. That’s uncharted territory. We’re 11 games in. Hard to fathom bad it could be that bad.
Interesting note … McCormack is 24.6, trailing only Dedric.
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Bosthawk said:
Garret the problem ?? Yikes Not even close. He’s keeping us in games with all the other things he does. The main problem is 1) grimes apparently can’t figure out D1 ball. 2) most of the team had yet to learn how to play consistent D and communicate on switches and learn to box out. One of the most inconsistent defenders is Vick. D Lawson also is slow on defense. Good thing they can score. Team needs to get better on fast breaks and D
I have to agree with you on a lot of this - - by far our best defender - -hands down - - - -rebounds well for his position - -very quick hands - -quick feet. - -Garrett is not our problem. I just think this team has holes - -sometimes feels like a lot of holes - -Offensively AND defensively both.
Again Garrett is not - - is not the problem. - -True on the offensive end is a liability but by far not the only one. Vick is still way to inconsistent - -no shows or no show until late and then tries to turn things on. - - Grimes has been a no show - - - Mitch psssssssst on the OFFENSIVE end - - -Charlie until game before last - -ha - -so Garrett is no more to blame on the offensive then many others are - -BUT yet on the defensive end Garrett stand head and shoulders above everybody else on this team.
See I think people here seem to want to place blame on the offense - which true they look ugly a lot of times. - -Yet I think we need to look at the defensive side a little more. - -I mean perfect example: - -how many fricken times does a team have to get beat on a back door cut before they realize oh ya looks like we got our ass beat back door - -over and over and over I mean come on where is the help? - -where the hell is our 3 pt FG defense? - I mean I am so sick and tired of watching our players can of trot out towards a guy who is about to launch YET another 3 pt attempt and our players just half jog out at them and then kind of an OLay defensive attempt - -if that’s what you wanna call it. - -Our defense sucks. - Do we have the ability to defend ? - -hell yes we do caught a flash of it a couple of times.
On the offensive end ya Garrett isn’t gonna save us - but he by far isn’t the only problem. - -These other guys have to step up - -to dam inconsistent. - We aren’t going to do shit in the NCAA if we can only depend on Dedric for scoring - -if that’s the case he won’t even see the ball. - Teams HAVE to have 2-3 players to share the scoring load - -Is Vick gonna show? - -that’s the problem - - we just don’t know which Vick were gonna get. - -Is Grimes ever gonna come out of this funk? - - AGAIN we don’t know. - but to this point the only consistency we are getting is Dedric - and then the next would be most likely is Devon - -need more then that- -We need Marcus - -he is not the problem - -he shouldn’t really need to be counted on - - on the offensive side of the ball , if others one’s we know that can score and have scored would step up - -but their not - right now anyways - and Garrett is just not that type of player - -that’s not what he does - that’s not why Coach has him in there - he is there for his defense. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@HighEliteMajor bring on Big Dave! (might be skewed if its partly mop-up minutes against scrubs but I don’t care! He deserves to play)
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@jayballer73 I don’t think anyone said Marcus is the problem. Why should we just give Marcus a pass, expectation wise, on his offense? Why should we be more critical of the “others” or expect more of the “others” offensively?
@approxinfinity The question is if he will really get minutes. I doubt it with Doke coming back.
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This is a team problem for sure, several guys aren’t playing as they are capable. Garrett is an issue on offense, he didn’t do terrible against ASU because he got to the lane, drew fouls and made the Fts. But he has to start driving consistently and finishing, the dude does great defensively and has his hands on a ton of good plays. Dedric has been fabulous on the offensive end as of late, hes starting to shoot it at a high percentage instead of getting half of his shots swatted back into his face but he isn’t a very good defender and lets up his fair share of buckets on that end. With his athletic ability it prob doesn’t get any better for him at this stage of his career. Dotson is one guy thats tough to find a whole lot to complain about for me outside of getting sped up and committing some avoidable turnovers like the pass that went thru his hands late against ASU. Overall I really like his game for a true freshman out there leading us on offense. Grimes has been very frustrating to watch outside of the MSU game. He doesn’t seem to have any hustle in him whatsoever, he struggles guarding anyone and against ASU he took numerous crappy shots. I like that he was more aggressive and maybe thats the first step or maybe it was all the stouts there. The question is will he play hard when there isn’t several scouts there? Vick just needs to be more consistent and pride himself more on defense. He too had some silly shots vs ASU but we have also seen him hit some really tough ones when he’s on, maybe he needs to limit those when he isn’t hot. Moore has to prove his worth on the offensive end. He is a liability in every other aspect of the game, we need him to come in and hit some open shots. Outside of one game that has not happened and he hasn’t been an addition off the bench. Mitch just needs to keep being Mitch but try to limit his boneheaded plays. KJ has an odd role to me, you really never know what hes gonna do but he seems to play hard and thats all you can ask out of a guy thats prob the 8th or 9th man in the rotation. Doke just needs to get healthy, continue to improve his FTs, Guard without fouling and rebound to his size.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jayballer73 I don’t think anyone said Marcus is the problem. Why should we just give Marcus a pass, expectation wise, on his offense? Why should we be more critical of the “others” or expect more of the “others” offensively?
@approxinfinity The question is if he will really get minutes. I doubt it with Doke coming back.
maybe you missed the part in what I said as to what the Coach’s is looking for in Marcus - -that’s for his defense seeing as how these others don’t seem to know how too. - -no one is giving anyone a pass and umm exactly WHERE did you see where I called ANYONE on this site out about Marcus? – go ahead I’ll wait. - -I’ll tell you this there are a hell of a lot more people that I’m on her on this team more then Marcus
We have the guys that are quite my capable of producing the numbers then Marcus - every player has a role to play for this team - -offense is NOT the role Coach is looking for out of Marcus on this team, - -We have the players that’s suppose to be bale to help the team in those cat - -it’s not Marcus - - he is playing his role quite sufficantly. v- - My question right back at you would be - - why shouldn’t we? let’s be serious.
Let me ask you this - -who is doing their role better - - Marcus on the defensive end? - -or Vick on the offensive end? - -go ahead again I’ll wait - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@HighEliteMajor Did you get visited by the ghost of Jamari past? Are we going to have to start calling you Ebeneezer?
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@jayballer73 I didn’t miss anything in your post. I agree that Marcus is doing well in certain phases. But when one says that Marcus is doing exactly what the coach wants, it’s a bit silly. Meaning, of course the coach would want a competent offensive player too. Marcus would be Travis Releford if he could score. They were similarly ranked players. So you’re saying the coach really wants an excellent defensive/intangibles guy, without scoring?
When someone says of Garrett that he’s exactly what the coach needs, it’s simply holding the bar too low. Garrett gives us what we need in some phases, and I do think that in certain areas, he’s very good. But again, his “role” is his current “role” because his inexplicable offensive deficiencies create that limited role. A role player becomes that because other areas are subpar. The defensive specialist is not a defensive specialist if he can score. He’s just one heck of a BB player if he can do both.
It’s somewhat similar to what some did with Traylor. Because he was so bad in many other phases, some focused on an area or two to say, wow, he’s filling a role – disregarding that he was a significant net negative.
Garrett, just my opinion here, is a net positive. Much different because his defense and intangibles, including hustle, far exceed Traylor. But on this team, Garrett’s offensive weakness really is highlighted because we struggle with second line scoring (behind Vick and Dedric).
I never said you called anyone out. Not sure where you saw that.
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@HighEliteMajor from the get go - -I’m sure ya that Coach Self did want him as a offensive also - -but when a person realizes what he has in a player - -then he goes with their strengths - -use him for what he is - - not for what he wanted to be. - -Thing is - if he had ANYONE better , then you wouldn’t see him playing as big of a role as he is. - Thing is he has no one better - - Thing is ya he is a liability on the offensive end - -BUT more then makes up for it one the defensive end.
On the other hand we have OTHER players that aren’t cutting it on the Offensive end or the Defensive end - if they were we wouldn’t be getting our ass handed to us on a silver platter on back cuts and 3 pt perimeter shooting to mention just a couple of things - -Marcus a liability? - -to a point - but there are others that far out exceed being a liability to the team then Marcus. - -but neither one of us are winning this discussion - -you got your opinion I go mine so time for me to move on. - Have a great day. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 Now, no quick exit. You make some excellent points. You said, “ya he is a liability on the offensive end” and “Marcus a liability? – to a point.” And that’s all I (and others) have said. He is a liability scoring wise. Meaning, defenders can play off of him, and thus impact our other offensive players. Remember that. When he’s out there on the three point stripe with Charlie, who will the defense more focus on? And that can impact others – because defenses will give him the open three pointer every time.
He is a liability on the offensive, as you said. You also said he makes up for it on the defensive end. My point was that a team composed another way – i.e., more reliable scoring, that’s great. Here, that offensive liability is more impactful on our team because we really need more offense (more guys scoring). That’s all.
It appears we are probably saying much the same thing. You just more passionately. And being passionate about Garrett’s defense and intangibles is something we can all buy into.
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My hope is… we have players that are good in certain areas and those areas will help lift the rest of the team in those areas. Marcus should inspire others to play hard-nosed defense and others should pick up some of his techniques. Dedric is an offensive machine inside and Vick is from the trey line. Let’s hope others pickup on some of that, too.
In so many ways, basketball is all about “team.” We should all know that after TRob suffered his tragedy and the team came around to come a few points away from a National Championship… and without a single McDs AA (as I recall).
We have plenty of talent. But we will never beat Duke in March if we are just trying to match talent.
I like the energy of this group and hold out hope they come together as a team. If they do, I don’t see anyone getting in their way of a title. Big “if” but we are respectable with a banged up Doke, Grimes is still lost out there, and few have truly found their identity on this team. So far, I’d say Dedric is leading the pack on this squad for identity. Even Vick is still honing in on how he fits in this.
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@HighEliteMajor I understand what you saying - - yet if the guys that are known for scoring is a major part of the problem - like you said we need more guys scoring - -which is true , BUT if the guys that have been known as scorers were stepping up like they need to be and have in the past - -we wouldn’t need Marcus as much for that - if they were scoring as they should then Marcus scoring would just be gravy
You tell me can you honestly say you have looked at Marcus as a scorer for this team ? - Have you ever thought of Marcus as a scorer? – -Me neither - - the thing is If Vick was being consistent which he STILL isn’t - -we wouldn’t be talking about this. - -Who is considered more of an offensive threat - -Quentin – or Marcus?- --and Quentin has done what? - -If Quentin was fulfilling his part - -would we need Marcus for his scoring as much ? - -You say we need more scoring - -that’s true - -BUT if Vick and Quentin were doing what they need that’s three out of five in the rotation as true scoring threats.
Then you mention Charlie - -up until the game before last how much of a scoring threat has Charlie been ? – answer Zelch - -I mean up until that single game for the season - opponents could afford to back off him also - -the opposing Coach of the team that when HE DID shoot lights out said that when he did it surprised him - - - Here again - -even if Charlie stepped up and with more consistency he is a much more offensive scorer then Marcus - -so that is 4 guys that we having for scoring if they play like they should/can - -we don’t need Marcus to score if the others are doing what they need to do. - Marcus is not a person no matter that is going to scare other opponents never has been – never will be - -that is not who he is - -we shouldn’t need him for that if others do what they need to do , much more then Marcus. - If we start to feel the need to depend on him for that - - -were Screwed
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in all fairness, all players have been saying all along that Charlie is the best 3 point shooter in the team; he just had not had a chance until recently to stay in long enough and get in rhythm to score like he is capable.
As far a not needing Marcus to score, Idon’t agree with that either. He needs to be a scoring threat either from the outside, mid-range or penetrating, otherwise teams can leave him unguarded and basically have 5 players defend 4 and one is going to be double teamed everytime which is not good.
I had high hopes for Marcus since it was reported that he had been working over the Summer with his uncle, who is a coach, fixing his shooting and was doing rather well. The problem is that apparently they tried making his poor shooting form more efficient and it did not make any measurable progress and the ceiling for that style is very low. Marcus needed to first, change his shooting form to the correct one with a much higher ceiling and second, improve the efficiency of his new style. I will guess next summer the staff will not let the uncle anywhere near Marcus.
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Offensively, Garrett creates a “gravity” problem. On the perimeter, Marcus Garrett does not create any sort of gravity. Defenders can go under screens and sag well off him because he’s not a threat to score from outside. That means that if he is on the floor with Doke and Dedric, there will be no space in the paint because there will be two big guys and three defenders in or around the lane.
I looked up Garrett’s offensive numbers to be sure the eye test wasn’t fooling me. They are truly offensive.
Freshman year - 62/136 from the field (45%), 12/45 from three (26%), 25/51 from FT (49%), 44 assists to 30 turnovers (1.47 to 1 ratio). There is nothing in that offensive profile from last year that spells danger for an opponent.
Sophomore year - 18/56 from the field (32%), 4/18 from three (22%), 21/32 from FT (66%), 25 assists to 7 turnovers (3.57 to 1 ration). Garrett is basically only dangerous if he is passing the ball. His FG and 3pt shooting are all but unplayable. Not just limited minutes. We are talking outright cannot get on the court levels. And that FT% was aided by a 7-8 night against Arizona State. Prior to that, he was 14/24 (58%).
It isn’t enough to say that Marcus Garrett is a limited offensive player. He’s worse than that. He’s very nearly a net negative on the offensive end because of his poor shooting. Not a break even. A net negative. He’s only grabbing about 4 rebounds per game. He’d need to be closer to six to balance out the fact that he’s a non threat on offense.
That’s the profile of a player that plays 17 mpg, not 27. We have gone through this so many times in the Self era that we know the names by heart - Morningstar… Traylor… Lucas… the list of “role” players over played and over exposed because they were “mistake free”.
If this isn’t corrected, KU’s season will end with Marcus Garrett going 2-9 from the field, including 0-4 from three with 2 assists and 1 turnover to go along with 5 rebounds in 29 minutes of a Sweet Sixteen loss. You can bookmark this comment and laugh and point at me later if I am wrong, but that is my fear.
Garrett is a poor shooter. While I am sure he worked hard on it over the summer, there are flaws. I don’t expect that he will ever be a great, or even good shooter. But he is the 2018 Chiefs defense - he’s a day trip away from mediocre. He does other things well (some even extremely well), but his offensive limits make him strictly a role player.
He either has to crash the glass offensively to create extra possessions, or he has to create so much offense for others (basically become Doug Gottlieb). The only problem is that Gottlieb even may have been a superior shooter to Garrett, and was almost certainly a superior passer. I just don’t see a clear path to improvement for Garrett that doesn’t involve him becoming a much better shooter, and that isn’t happening overnight.
That’s why we need Grimes, KJ Lawson, Moore and others to step forward. Garrett is simply too limited offensively to shoulder as many minutes as he currently is being asked to. It’s Jamari Traylor all over again. Great for 15 minutes. Not great for 25.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
in all fairness, all players have been saying all along that Charlie is the best 3 point shooter in the team; he just had not had a chance until recently to stay in long enough and get in rhythm to score like he is capable.
As far a not needing Marcus to score, Idon’t agree with that either. He needs to be a scoring threat either from the outside, mid-range or penetrating, otherwise teams can leave him unguarded and basically have 5 players defend 4 and one is going to be double teamed everytime which is not good.
I had high hopes for Marcus since it was reported that he had been working over the Summer with his uncle, who is a coach, fixing his shooting and was doing rather well. The problem is that apparently they tried making his poor shooting form more efficient and it did not make any measurable progress and the ceiling for that style is very low. Marcus needed to first, change his shooting form to the correct one with a much higher ceiling and second, improve the efficiency of his new style. I will guess next summer the staff will not let the uncle anywhere near Marcus.
I give up - - I surrender - -yet I’m not changing my stance - -if people can’t see what I’m bringing out about this - -then so be it - -but you won’t get me to change my stance on this - -w have PLENTY of scoring capilities without Marcus needing to - it’s ok though everybody is entitled to their opinion - -everybody is entitled to disagree on thing - -and THIS - -YEP I’m disagreeing with you lol - -ROCK CHALKJ ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Garrett will never be a great offensive player so the best way to overcome that is to mask his deficiencies. He was a PG in HS and is a very good facilitator on offense. Let him run the show and be the 1 on offense. That’s his best use on offense because it forces the defense to pay attention to him.
He is however KU’s best defender by far and can effectively guard 1-4 as we’ve seen the past 2 years. The points he prevents from being scored on the defensive end make up for his lack of scoring ability on the offensive end.
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@justanotherfan the thing to remember just as you said we can’t afford for him 25 minutes a game and what people are forgetting or ignoring whatever the idea is - the ONLY reason he is getting the minutes he is getting now is because of Doke’s injury -under normal game conditions he won’t be getting these amount of minutes to hinder the offensive side. - -just a little thought
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@jayballer73 Every year, HEM runs down a few of our players. Then he runs down the coach for playing them. His worst day of the year came when we made the Final Four. I just wish he’d admit which team he actually rooted for, so we could do the same to his players. Always remember- he’s the guy that called Malik Newman a “cancer” … right before Newman had probably the best NCAA run of any player we’ve had since Danny Manning. I appreciate your defense of Garrett. Shooting is a skill like anything else, so Garrett could get real good at some point. It might not be this year, but at some point, I believe he will be a great asset, both on offense AND defense. It’s going to require some patience, but by the time Marcus is a senior, I think he’ll make us all glad we stuck with him.
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I don’t believe anyone is asking you to change your opinion on Garret, I am certainly not trying to do do. We all are simply expressing our own biased opinions which is what forums such as this are for.
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KUSTEVE said:
@jayballer73 Every year, HEM runs down a few of our players. Then he runs down the coach for playing them. His worst day of the year came when we made the Final Four. I just wish he’d admit which team he actually rooted for, so we could do the same to his players. Always remember- he’s the guy that called Malik Newman a “cancer” … right before Newman had probably the best NCAA run of any player we’ve had since Danny Manning. I appreciate your defense of Garrett. Shooting is a skill like anything else, so Garrett could get real good at some point. It might not be this year, but at some point, I believe he will be a great asset, both on offense AND defense. It’s going to require some patience, but by the time Marcus is a senior, I think he’ll make us all glad we stuck with him.
Thank you buddy and yes I know at this point Marcus has his issues and is a liability to a point on the offensive end - - yet there are some that have issues on the offensive end AND the defensive end that because of that are MORE of a liability then Marcus - -where opposition take advantages of those liabilities - -thanks buddy. - -ROCKCHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I don’t believe anyone is asking you to change your opinion on Garret, I am certainly not trying to do do. We all are simply expressing our own biased opinions which is why forums such as this are for.
you make it sound like I am pissed - - -I AM NOT pissed - -you reading me wrong - -it’s ok - - time to chill like you said this is a forum you express yours - -I express mine not trippin - -I’m not asking for your approval on how I feel - -All I’m saying neither one going to change the others opinion - -and after awhile just seems senseless to continue to play a game of you said this - -I said that and not getting anywhere -I’ll continue to express my view on Marcus - – -you can continue to express your opinion on how you feel - -it’s ok Brother we gonna be all right - -not take things so serious. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 I was going to make that point on Garrett’s minutes. Once Doke comes back, he likely won’t be playing as much…and Doke is one more scoring option. I think other’s make a good point…he;s probably better as a 20 min. type player unless and until he improves as a scoring threat. But his defense is awfully good compared to most of the other guys.
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Quick comparison to a different sport to make a point about Marcus Garrett.
Last year, Alcides Escobar was a bad hitter by basically any statistical measure you chose. He had a below average batting average, on base percentage, OPS, OPS+, etc. Literally any offensive stat you chose, Escobar was well below average.
There are those that argued that Escobar’s defense could make up for his poor batting, but the problem was, Escobar was so bad offensively that he would have needed to create, over the course of the season, about 100 extra outs to justify playing him every day. Basically, he would have had to turn almost every ball hit in his area into an out just to be a break even player. It was basically impossible for him to be a break even player because his offensive numbers were just too bad.
Garrett is in that same range right now, not because his defense isn’t good (it is) or because he doesn’t bring other things to the table (he does), but because his shooting is so bad. He cannot shoot jump shots right now. Those are basically turnovers. In order to make up for his poor shooting, Garrett would have to never turn the ball over, hold his man to poor shooting, get 3-4 steals per game and average over 5 rebounds per game. He would have to do all of that just to be a break even level player. Garrett would basically need to turn the other team’s best perimeter offensive player into a version of himself with his defense, plus chip in with intangibles because the opposition doesn’t have to respect him from the perimeter.
That’s a lot of pressure on the rest of his game.
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I’m with @jayballer73 on this one. Garret was never projected to score more than 7ppg (at least in my mind). His offense isn’t what’s holding this team back. It’s everyone not named Dedrick or Devon that is the problem on offense. Charlie was supposed to be KUs best shooter - he’s no better than Garrett and couldn’t defend a one legged blind man. Grimes is supposed to be mr wonderful, just perfect in every way - Mr. invisible is more like it. KJ was supposed to be a wildcard do everything Swiss armyknife- he does nothing well so far. McCormack is a McDonalds AA that has great upside, but is wild as heck and out of position/ control in his limited minutes.
Garrett is exactly what we knew he would be - a roll player. The problem is the rest of the team isn’t filling their rolls, making Garrett’s offensive roll expand, to the detriment of the team.
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…and yet KU has beaten 3 top 25 teams (2 in the top 10) and their best basketball is ahead of them. The future is very bright once they get it figured out and healthy.
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dylans said:
I’m with @jayballer73 on this one. Garret was never projected to score more than 7ppg (at least in my mind). His offense isn’t what’s holding this team back. It’s everyone not named Dedrick or Devon that is the problem on offense. Charlie was supposed to be KUs best shooter - he’s no better than Garrett and couldn’t defend a one legged blind man. Grimes is supposed to be mr wonderful, just perfect in every way - Mr. invisible is more like it. KJ was supposed to be a wildcard do everything Swiss armyknife- he does nothing well so far. McCormack is a McDonalds AA that has great upside, but is wild as heck and out of position/ control in his limited minutes.
Garrett is exactly what we knew he would be - a roll player. The problem is the rest of the team isn’t filling their rolls, making Garrett’s offensive roll expand, to the detriment of the team.
Your point is correct. Garrett isn’t supposed to be more than a role player. However, he’s playing 27 mpg right now. That’s too many minutes for a role player.
Garrett as a role player is excellent. He is a versatile defender that can rebound and pass. As a role player, his shooting is minimized because you can play him with other shooters to hide that. As a role player, he fits perfectly.
But he’s being used as a primary player. He’s closing games. That’s not where he can be effective because that amplifies his shortcomings.
Now, some of that is, as you correctly point out, the fault of Grimes, KJ Lawson, Moore and others for not stepping forward. Some of that is the circumstance with Doke being injured.
But you should never over-extend a role player because there is a greater chance that teams start gameplanning to their weaknesses than that they cover those weaknesses. We saw that with Lucas. We saw it with Traylor. We saw it with Morningstar.
Marcus Garrett should go down as a universally loved Jayhawk with a Swiss Army Knife of skills. But if he is put in a position to be a primary player, we will remember his deficiencies more.
Ultimately, this discussion should be about Quentin Grimes underperforming. He has the talent to be an NBA lottery pick. He should have to live up to that. Marcus Garrett is a role player. He shouldn’t be burdened with having to fill Quentin Grimes’ potential.
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@justanotherfan If I could upvote your post more than once, especially the last paragraph, I certainly would!!
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@justanotherfan Well said, sir! The definitive post on the Garrett Situation IMO.
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@jayballer73 but the primary point of others commentary is that Garrett becomes a net drag on others offensive output because team can play off of him.
They can in effect double team DLaw and face-guard Vick with little negative impact on their defense while completely creating havoc with our offensive efficiency.
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dylans said:
…and yet KU has beaten 3 top 25 teams (2 in the top 10) and their best basketball is ahead of them. The future is very bright once they get it figured out and healthy.
thank you for that - - maybe you can word it better. I know Mitch as been assigned to defend the other teams best player a lot and did a pretty dam good job also and to a pretty much taking them out - -really cutting them off - -coming up with steals - - getting his share of boards - he is our defense -pretty much again lik you said he will never be a contributor on offense - -he is contributing a lot just in a different area. - -If the others were contributing on their part - -we wouldn’t be worried about this - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BAB
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@justanotherfan The only problem - well no more then that but one of the major one’s why he is playing those minutes you speak of is because Of Doke being hurt - -I think we agreed on that - -BUT - - if we DON’T play these minutes – WHO do we play ? - -Coach doesn’t have any other options with anyone else - -Marcus is the best we have with Doke being out - -or so its been shown to this point anyways.
IF we don’t play Marcus right now - -then we would be replacing Marcus with a player that really couldn’t be more of and offensive threat - -or hardly anymore the Marcus - -plus they would be more of a liability on the defensive end then Marcus. - -So what you would have is you would be replacing Marcus with a guy worse on the defensive end and not really any better consistent offense player - -your not gaining anything.
Like Dylan said he is not the problem - -he is doing exactly what the Coach has asked him to due while Doke is out - -can guard 1-4 -and guard them well. look at it this way - -sounds like whether we like it one way or another it sounds like Doke coming back - -so Marcus will go back to the reserve role fill in minutes - -and will be less like of that liability like some here have said - -it’s all good - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Bwag Also like I have said – so you want to replace him ? - -So then tell me who you going to replace him with that is that much better to be able to warrant making that change ? - Answer nobody.
There is no others that is consistently better enough to warrant that - -on top of that , not only they are enough better on the offensive end - -then be MORE of a liability on the defensive end - - Garrett is a lockdown defender - -you don’t agree with that? - then how about Bill gush’s over Garrett’s defense - guarding guys at 1-4 and guarding better then anyone. - So if you wanna replace him - then you have to be able to replace him with a guy that is much more on the offensive end to do that.
Let me ask you this - -if this is truly the Case - -then WHY is it that the Guy that understands this getting paid for making these decisions - -a guy that is a hall of fame Coach - and won how many games again since he ha been here - -if that is the decision that should be made - -then why is it that he goes with Marcus? - -I would think if he had anyone any better - -Coach would have them on the floor. - Yet he realizes he DOESN’T have anyone any better at this time. - -like I posted earlier - looks like we won’t have to worry anymore aas it sounds like Doke returns for at least some tomorrow. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Too bad McCormack couldn’t earn more of those minutes. He needs game experience to be more productive long term. Crazy that our McD AA center can’t get minutes in the post, but our ranked around 50 point guard can! I can’t wait until the light goes on for McCormack. I love his hustle and attitude. He’ll be a stud in time.
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@jayballer73 I read what you write and I’m sorry, you seem to totally miss the points made. Like you just look past them. First, no one has said that there is some great replacement for Garrett. No one. Our options are limited. Second, the sole complaint on Garrett is his horrid offense. That’s it. It’s nothing more than that. Don’t create more than it is. You took what @Bwag said and created a fiction.
And all it this amounts to is analysis and discussion. Folks may disagree. But don’t make it more than it is. It’s not a personal attack on you.
@KUSTEVE Same old, same old. First, you lie. I never called Newman a cancer. I posted a thread that addressed a topic that had been discussed, and raised a question for consideration given what was seen, and what Self said related to Newman. Further, it was a huge issue because in early February, Self was questioning team chemistry. Thread link below. Again, you’re just dishonest. Second, again you lie. I’m not running down Garrett. No one is. It’s discussion. I know that’s threatening to you. Third, you lie. To suggest that I would want KU to lose amounts to asinine ramblings. But this is deeper with you. You lash out because you have some irrational need to do so. To make yourself feel better. The signs of a fellow with significant insecurity. But even more so, you continue to think that you are somehow a greater fan than others. Somehow more of a true fan. But, of course, you ignore your criticisms of the team and the coach that seep out. No, no, that’s ok, you’re the true fan. Or, actually, you’re just a dishonest jackass.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/7060/are-we-into-cancer-territory-with-newman
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Malik should have stayed, then we wouldn’t be having these silly discussions about Garrett!
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jayballer73 I read what you write and I’m sorry, you seem to totally miss the points made. Like you just look past them. First, no one has said that there is some great replacement for Garrett. No one. Our options are limited. Second, the sole complaint on Garrett is his horrid offense. That’s it. It’s nothing more than that. Don’t create more than it is. You took what @Bwag said and created a fiction.
And all it this amounts to is analysis and discussion. Folks may disagree. But don’t make it more than it is. It’s not a personal attack on you.
@KUSTEVE Same old, same old. First, you lie. I never called Newman a cancer. I posted a thread that addressed a topic that had been discussed, and raised a question for consideration given what was seen, and what Self said related to Newman. Further, it was a huge issue because in early February, Self was questioning team chemistry. Thread link below. Again, you’re just dishonest. Second, again you lie. I’m not running down Garrett. No one is. It’s discussion. I know that’s threatening to you. Third, you lie. To suggest that I would want KU to lose amounts to asinine ramblings. But this is deeper with you. You lash out because you have some irrational need to do so. To make yourself feel better. The signs of a fellow with significant insecurity. But even more so, you continue to think that you are somehow a greater fan than others. Somehow more of a true fan. But, of course, you ignore your criticisms of the team and the coach that seep out. No, no, that’s ok, you’re the true fan. Or, actually, you’re just a dishonest jackass.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/7060/are-we-into-cancer-territory-with-newman
I’m sorry you can’t seem to get it through your head. - believe me I in no way think I am being attacked. - What I am realizing speaking of totally missing the point is - - - - - -YOU - -I’m sorry it is to difficult for you , I am also starting to see what some people say about you though but it’s ok. - -Also looks like I’m not the only one who seems to believe the same as myself. - - I am really very happy how you seem to be able to analyze me but there is ALOT more then what you try and make it out to be - -there IS a lot more then Garrett being the problem - -just sorry you pick and choose what you want to make it out to be and not understand more that surrounds the real problem - -it’s ok though I don’t feel attacked - -but what I do feel is this is not worth continuing to exchange back and forth - kind of pointless , I DO feel though you are a person that feels the need to have the last word on things - -so if you feel you just have to get in the last word - -feel free it will only prove even further what I just said
Hope you continue to root for KU even WITH Marcus liabilities - -it will be ok and remember - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY - Yet if I recall someone has stated your not really a KU fan – is that true? - - PLEASE tell me this isn’t true - - it’s not is it? - -your not ANOTHERA troll are you - -say it isn’t so Joe - -say it isn’t so. - -have a GREAT DAY my friend
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wissox said:
Malik should have stayed, then we wouldn’t be having these silly discussions about Garrett!
we sure could use him this year for sure - -especially if he would be in that NCAA form as last year - -loved the way he played. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Well if KU keeps Newman we wouldn’t get to see what a Jr. Grimes could do.
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@HighEliteMajor I don’t have to defend myself to the likes of you. From the many times you’ve called Coach Self a liar, it doesn’t bother me a bit when you paint me with the same brush. I notice you didn’t put any links to when you ran down Jamari and Landon, and Coach Self numerous times. You’re very predictable. You start criticizing, and when we win, you disappear. I’m going to keep calling out your games you run on here every time you do it. I hope we make the Final Four again, so you’ll go away.
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Hmmm heard just a STUNNING comment made during the game today , just happen to be about Marcus - -HEY HEM - -did you happen to hear this ? – now let’s see - -what the hell was it they said? - -OH YA Now I remember , they were talking about what a good job Marcus had been doing - -let’s see oh ya - - they said " Garrett - - just been doing what he has been asked to do " - hmm dam - -are they sure? - - that can’t be can it? - - I mean that would mean Coach doesn’t think he is ummm a Liability - NOT if he is just doing what he has been asked to do - -oh well just curious if you happen to catch that too? - - Did you catch that Steve? – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
