Mitch
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Offensively, Garrett creates a “gravity” problem. On the perimeter, Marcus Garrett does not create any sort of gravity. Defenders can go under screens and sag well off him because he’s not a threat to score from outside. That means that if he is on the floor with Doke and Dedric, there will be no space in the paint because there will be two big guys and three defenders in or around the lane.
I looked up Garrett’s offensive numbers to be sure the eye test wasn’t fooling me. They are truly offensive.
Freshman year - 62/136 from the field (45%), 12/45 from three (26%), 25/51 from FT (49%), 44 assists to 30 turnovers (1.47 to 1 ratio). There is nothing in that offensive profile from last year that spells danger for an opponent.
Sophomore year - 18/56 from the field (32%), 4/18 from three (22%), 21/32 from FT (66%), 25 assists to 7 turnovers (3.57 to 1 ration). Garrett is basically only dangerous if he is passing the ball. His FG and 3pt shooting are all but unplayable. Not just limited minutes. We are talking outright cannot get on the court levels. And that FT% was aided by a 7-8 night against Arizona State. Prior to that, he was 14/24 (58%).
It isn’t enough to say that Marcus Garrett is a limited offensive player. He’s worse than that. He’s very nearly a net negative on the offensive end because of his poor shooting. Not a break even. A net negative. He’s only grabbing about 4 rebounds per game. He’d need to be closer to six to balance out the fact that he’s a non threat on offense.
That’s the profile of a player that plays 17 mpg, not 27. We have gone through this so many times in the Self era that we know the names by heart - Morningstar… Traylor… Lucas… the list of “role” players over played and over exposed because they were “mistake free”.
If this isn’t corrected, KU’s season will end with Marcus Garrett going 2-9 from the field, including 0-4 from three with 2 assists and 1 turnover to go along with 5 rebounds in 29 minutes of a Sweet Sixteen loss. You can bookmark this comment and laugh and point at me later if I am wrong, but that is my fear.
Garrett is a poor shooter. While I am sure he worked hard on it over the summer, there are flaws. I don’t expect that he will ever be a great, or even good shooter. But he is the 2018 Chiefs defense - he’s a day trip away from mediocre. He does other things well (some even extremely well), but his offensive limits make him strictly a role player.
He either has to crash the glass offensively to create extra possessions, or he has to create so much offense for others (basically become Doug Gottlieb). The only problem is that Gottlieb even may have been a superior shooter to Garrett, and was almost certainly a superior passer. I just don’t see a clear path to improvement for Garrett that doesn’t involve him becoming a much better shooter, and that isn’t happening overnight.
That’s why we need Grimes, KJ Lawson, Moore and others to step forward. Garrett is simply too limited offensively to shoulder as many minutes as he currently is being asked to. It’s Jamari Traylor all over again. Great for 15 minutes. Not great for 25.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
in all fairness, all players have been saying all along that Charlie is the best 3 point shooter in the team; he just had not had a chance until recently to stay in long enough and get in rhythm to score like he is capable.
As far a not needing Marcus to score, Idon’t agree with that either. He needs to be a scoring threat either from the outside, mid-range or penetrating, otherwise teams can leave him unguarded and basically have 5 players defend 4 and one is going to be double teamed everytime which is not good.
I had high hopes for Marcus since it was reported that he had been working over the Summer with his uncle, who is a coach, fixing his shooting and was doing rather well. The problem is that apparently they tried making his poor shooting form more efficient and it did not make any measurable progress and the ceiling for that style is very low. Marcus needed to first, change his shooting form to the correct one with a much higher ceiling and second, improve the efficiency of his new style. I will guess next summer the staff will not let the uncle anywhere near Marcus.
I give up - - I surrender - -yet I’m not changing my stance - -if people can’t see what I’m bringing out about this - -then so be it - -but you won’t get me to change my stance on this - -w have PLENTY of scoring capilities without Marcus needing to - it’s ok though everybody is entitled to their opinion - -everybody is entitled to disagree on thing - -and THIS - -YEP I’m disagreeing with you lol - -ROCK CHALKJ ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Garrett will never be a great offensive player so the best way to overcome that is to mask his deficiencies. He was a PG in HS and is a very good facilitator on offense. Let him run the show and be the 1 on offense. That’s his best use on offense because it forces the defense to pay attention to him.
He is however KU’s best defender by far and can effectively guard 1-4 as we’ve seen the past 2 years. The points he prevents from being scored on the defensive end make up for his lack of scoring ability on the offensive end.
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@justanotherfan the thing to remember just as you said we can’t afford for him 25 minutes a game and what people are forgetting or ignoring whatever the idea is - the ONLY reason he is getting the minutes he is getting now is because of Doke’s injury -under normal game conditions he won’t be getting these amount of minutes to hinder the offensive side. - -just a little thought
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@jayballer73 Every year, HEM runs down a few of our players. Then he runs down the coach for playing them. His worst day of the year came when we made the Final Four. I just wish he’d admit which team he actually rooted for, so we could do the same to his players. Always remember- he’s the guy that called Malik Newman a “cancer” … right before Newman had probably the best NCAA run of any player we’ve had since Danny Manning. I appreciate your defense of Garrett. Shooting is a skill like anything else, so Garrett could get real good at some point. It might not be this year, but at some point, I believe he will be a great asset, both on offense AND defense. It’s going to require some patience, but by the time Marcus is a senior, I think he’ll make us all glad we stuck with him.
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I don’t believe anyone is asking you to change your opinion on Garret, I am certainly not trying to do do. We all are simply expressing our own biased opinions which is what forums such as this are for.
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KUSTEVE said:
@jayballer73 Every year, HEM runs down a few of our players. Then he runs down the coach for playing them. His worst day of the year came when we made the Final Four. I just wish he’d admit which team he actually rooted for, so we could do the same to his players. Always remember- he’s the guy that called Malik Newman a “cancer” … right before Newman had probably the best NCAA run of any player we’ve had since Danny Manning. I appreciate your defense of Garrett. Shooting is a skill like anything else, so Garrett could get real good at some point. It might not be this year, but at some point, I believe he will be a great asset, both on offense AND defense. It’s going to require some patience, but by the time Marcus is a senior, I think he’ll make us all glad we stuck with him.
Thank you buddy and yes I know at this point Marcus has his issues and is a liability to a point on the offensive end - - yet there are some that have issues on the offensive end AND the defensive end that because of that are MORE of a liability then Marcus - -where opposition take advantages of those liabilities - -thanks buddy. - -ROCKCHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I don’t believe anyone is asking you to change your opinion on Garret, I am certainly not trying to do do. We all are simply expressing our own biased opinions which is why forums such as this are for.
you make it sound like I am pissed - - -I AM NOT pissed - -you reading me wrong - -it’s ok - - time to chill like you said this is a forum you express yours - -I express mine not trippin - -I’m not asking for your approval on how I feel - -All I’m saying neither one going to change the others opinion - -and after awhile just seems senseless to continue to play a game of you said this - -I said that and not getting anywhere -I’ll continue to express my view on Marcus - – -you can continue to express your opinion on how you feel - -it’s ok Brother we gonna be all right - -not take things so serious. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 I was going to make that point on Garrett’s minutes. Once Doke comes back, he likely won’t be playing as much…and Doke is one more scoring option. I think other’s make a good point…he;s probably better as a 20 min. type player unless and until he improves as a scoring threat. But his defense is awfully good compared to most of the other guys.
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Quick comparison to a different sport to make a point about Marcus Garrett.
Last year, Alcides Escobar was a bad hitter by basically any statistical measure you chose. He had a below average batting average, on base percentage, OPS, OPS+, etc. Literally any offensive stat you chose, Escobar was well below average.
There are those that argued that Escobar’s defense could make up for his poor batting, but the problem was, Escobar was so bad offensively that he would have needed to create, over the course of the season, about 100 extra outs to justify playing him every day. Basically, he would have had to turn almost every ball hit in his area into an out just to be a break even player. It was basically impossible for him to be a break even player because his offensive numbers were just too bad.
Garrett is in that same range right now, not because his defense isn’t good (it is) or because he doesn’t bring other things to the table (he does), but because his shooting is so bad. He cannot shoot jump shots right now. Those are basically turnovers. In order to make up for his poor shooting, Garrett would have to never turn the ball over, hold his man to poor shooting, get 3-4 steals per game and average over 5 rebounds per game. He would have to do all of that just to be a break even level player. Garrett would basically need to turn the other team’s best perimeter offensive player into a version of himself with his defense, plus chip in with intangibles because the opposition doesn’t have to respect him from the perimeter.
That’s a lot of pressure on the rest of his game.
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I’m with @jayballer73 on this one. Garret was never projected to score more than 7ppg (at least in my mind). His offense isn’t what’s holding this team back. It’s everyone not named Dedrick or Devon that is the problem on offense. Charlie was supposed to be KUs best shooter - he’s no better than Garrett and couldn’t defend a one legged blind man. Grimes is supposed to be mr wonderful, just perfect in every way - Mr. invisible is more like it. KJ was supposed to be a wildcard do everything Swiss armyknife- he does nothing well so far. McCormack is a McDonalds AA that has great upside, but is wild as heck and out of position/ control in his limited minutes.
Garrett is exactly what we knew he would be - a roll player. The problem is the rest of the team isn’t filling their rolls, making Garrett’s offensive roll expand, to the detriment of the team.
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…and yet KU has beaten 3 top 25 teams (2 in the top 10) and their best basketball is ahead of them. The future is very bright once they get it figured out and healthy.
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dylans said:
I’m with @jayballer73 on this one. Garret was never projected to score more than 7ppg (at least in my mind). His offense isn’t what’s holding this team back. It’s everyone not named Dedrick or Devon that is the problem on offense. Charlie was supposed to be KUs best shooter - he’s no better than Garrett and couldn’t defend a one legged blind man. Grimes is supposed to be mr wonderful, just perfect in every way - Mr. invisible is more like it. KJ was supposed to be a wildcard do everything Swiss armyknife- he does nothing well so far. McCormack is a McDonalds AA that has great upside, but is wild as heck and out of position/ control in his limited minutes.
Garrett is exactly what we knew he would be - a roll player. The problem is the rest of the team isn’t filling their rolls, making Garrett’s offensive roll expand, to the detriment of the team.
Your point is correct. Garrett isn’t supposed to be more than a role player. However, he’s playing 27 mpg right now. That’s too many minutes for a role player.
Garrett as a role player is excellent. He is a versatile defender that can rebound and pass. As a role player, his shooting is minimized because you can play him with other shooters to hide that. As a role player, he fits perfectly.
But he’s being used as a primary player. He’s closing games. That’s not where he can be effective because that amplifies his shortcomings.
Now, some of that is, as you correctly point out, the fault of Grimes, KJ Lawson, Moore and others for not stepping forward. Some of that is the circumstance with Doke being injured.
But you should never over-extend a role player because there is a greater chance that teams start gameplanning to their weaknesses than that they cover those weaknesses. We saw that with Lucas. We saw it with Traylor. We saw it with Morningstar.
Marcus Garrett should go down as a universally loved Jayhawk with a Swiss Army Knife of skills. But if he is put in a position to be a primary player, we will remember his deficiencies more.
Ultimately, this discussion should be about Quentin Grimes underperforming. He has the talent to be an NBA lottery pick. He should have to live up to that. Marcus Garrett is a role player. He shouldn’t be burdened with having to fill Quentin Grimes’ potential.
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@justanotherfan If I could upvote your post more than once, especially the last paragraph, I certainly would!!
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@justanotherfan Well said, sir! The definitive post on the Garrett Situation IMO.
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@jayballer73 but the primary point of others commentary is that Garrett becomes a net drag on others offensive output because team can play off of him.
They can in effect double team DLaw and face-guard Vick with little negative impact on their defense while completely creating havoc with our offensive efficiency.
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dylans said:
…and yet KU has beaten 3 top 25 teams (2 in the top 10) and their best basketball is ahead of them. The future is very bright once they get it figured out and healthy.
thank you for that - - maybe you can word it better. I know Mitch as been assigned to defend the other teams best player a lot and did a pretty dam good job also and to a pretty much taking them out - -really cutting them off - -coming up with steals - - getting his share of boards - he is our defense -pretty much again lik you said he will never be a contributor on offense - -he is contributing a lot just in a different area. - -If the others were contributing on their part - -we wouldn’t be worried about this - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BAB
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@justanotherfan The only problem - well no more then that but one of the major one’s why he is playing those minutes you speak of is because Of Doke being hurt - -I think we agreed on that - -BUT - - if we DON’T play these minutes – WHO do we play ? - -Coach doesn’t have any other options with anyone else - -Marcus is the best we have with Doke being out - -or so its been shown to this point anyways.
IF we don’t play Marcus right now - -then we would be replacing Marcus with a player that really couldn’t be more of and offensive threat - -or hardly anymore the Marcus - -plus they would be more of a liability on the defensive end then Marcus. - -So what you would have is you would be replacing Marcus with a guy worse on the defensive end and not really any better consistent offense player - -your not gaining anything.
Like Dylan said he is not the problem - -he is doing exactly what the Coach has asked him to due while Doke is out - -can guard 1-4 -and guard them well. look at it this way - -sounds like whether we like it one way or another it sounds like Doke coming back - -so Marcus will go back to the reserve role fill in minutes - -and will be less like of that liability like some here have said - -it’s all good - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Bwag Also like I have said – so you want to replace him ? - -So then tell me who you going to replace him with that is that much better to be able to warrant making that change ? - Answer nobody.
There is no others that is consistently better enough to warrant that - -on top of that , not only they are enough better on the offensive end - -then be MORE of a liability on the defensive end - - Garrett is a lockdown defender - -you don’t agree with that? - then how about Bill gush’s over Garrett’s defense - guarding guys at 1-4 and guarding better then anyone. - So if you wanna replace him - then you have to be able to replace him with a guy that is much more on the offensive end to do that.
Let me ask you this - -if this is truly the Case - -then WHY is it that the Guy that understands this getting paid for making these decisions - -a guy that is a hall of fame Coach - and won how many games again since he ha been here - -if that is the decision that should be made - -then why is it that he goes with Marcus? - -I would think if he had anyone any better - -Coach would have them on the floor. - Yet he realizes he DOESN’T have anyone any better at this time. - -like I posted earlier - looks like we won’t have to worry anymore aas it sounds like Doke returns for at least some tomorrow. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Too bad McCormack couldn’t earn more of those minutes. He needs game experience to be more productive long term. Crazy that our McD AA center can’t get minutes in the post, but our ranked around 50 point guard can! I can’t wait until the light goes on for McCormack. I love his hustle and attitude. He’ll be a stud in time.
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@jayballer73 I read what you write and I’m sorry, you seem to totally miss the points made. Like you just look past them. First, no one has said that there is some great replacement for Garrett. No one. Our options are limited. Second, the sole complaint on Garrett is his horrid offense. That’s it. It’s nothing more than that. Don’t create more than it is. You took what @Bwag said and created a fiction.
And all it this amounts to is analysis and discussion. Folks may disagree. But don’t make it more than it is. It’s not a personal attack on you.
@KUSTEVE Same old, same old. First, you lie. I never called Newman a cancer. I posted a thread that addressed a topic that had been discussed, and raised a question for consideration given what was seen, and what Self said related to Newman. Further, it was a huge issue because in early February, Self was questioning team chemistry. Thread link below. Again, you’re just dishonest. Second, again you lie. I’m not running down Garrett. No one is. It’s discussion. I know that’s threatening to you. Third, you lie. To suggest that I would want KU to lose amounts to asinine ramblings. But this is deeper with you. You lash out because you have some irrational need to do so. To make yourself feel better. The signs of a fellow with significant insecurity. But even more so, you continue to think that you are somehow a greater fan than others. Somehow more of a true fan. But, of course, you ignore your criticisms of the team and the coach that seep out. No, no, that’s ok, you’re the true fan. Or, actually, you’re just a dishonest jackass.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/7060/are-we-into-cancer-territory-with-newman
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Malik should have stayed, then we wouldn’t be having these silly discussions about Garrett!
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jayballer73 I read what you write and I’m sorry, you seem to totally miss the points made. Like you just look past them. First, no one has said that there is some great replacement for Garrett. No one. Our options are limited. Second, the sole complaint on Garrett is his horrid offense. That’s it. It’s nothing more than that. Don’t create more than it is. You took what @Bwag said and created a fiction.
And all it this amounts to is analysis and discussion. Folks may disagree. But don’t make it more than it is. It’s not a personal attack on you.
@KUSTEVE Same old, same old. First, you lie. I never called Newman a cancer. I posted a thread that addressed a topic that had been discussed, and raised a question for consideration given what was seen, and what Self said related to Newman. Further, it was a huge issue because in early February, Self was questioning team chemistry. Thread link below. Again, you’re just dishonest. Second, again you lie. I’m not running down Garrett. No one is. It’s discussion. I know that’s threatening to you. Third, you lie. To suggest that I would want KU to lose amounts to asinine ramblings. But this is deeper with you. You lash out because you have some irrational need to do so. To make yourself feel better. The signs of a fellow with significant insecurity. But even more so, you continue to think that you are somehow a greater fan than others. Somehow more of a true fan. But, of course, you ignore your criticisms of the team and the coach that seep out. No, no, that’s ok, you’re the true fan. Or, actually, you’re just a dishonest jackass.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/7060/are-we-into-cancer-territory-with-newman
I’m sorry you can’t seem to get it through your head. - believe me I in no way think I am being attacked. - What I am realizing speaking of totally missing the point is - - - - - -YOU - -I’m sorry it is to difficult for you , I am also starting to see what some people say about you though but it’s ok. - -Also looks like I’m not the only one who seems to believe the same as myself. - - I am really very happy how you seem to be able to analyze me but there is ALOT more then what you try and make it out to be - -there IS a lot more then Garrett being the problem - -just sorry you pick and choose what you want to make it out to be and not understand more that surrounds the real problem - -it’s ok though I don’t feel attacked - -but what I do feel is this is not worth continuing to exchange back and forth - kind of pointless , I DO feel though you are a person that feels the need to have the last word on things - -so if you feel you just have to get in the last word - -feel free it will only prove even further what I just said
Hope you continue to root for KU even WITH Marcus liabilities - -it will be ok and remember - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY - Yet if I recall someone has stated your not really a KU fan – is that true? - - PLEASE tell me this isn’t true - - it’s not is it? - -your not ANOTHERA troll are you - -say it isn’t so Joe - -say it isn’t so. - -have a GREAT DAY my friend
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wissox said:
Malik should have stayed, then we wouldn’t be having these silly discussions about Garrett!
we sure could use him this year for sure - -especially if he would be in that NCAA form as last year - -loved the way he played. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Well if KU keeps Newman we wouldn’t get to see what a Jr. Grimes could do.
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@HighEliteMajor I don’t have to defend myself to the likes of you. From the many times you’ve called Coach Self a liar, it doesn’t bother me a bit when you paint me with the same brush. I notice you didn’t put any links to when you ran down Jamari and Landon, and Coach Self numerous times. You’re very predictable. You start criticizing, and when we win, you disappear. I’m going to keep calling out your games you run on here every time you do it. I hope we make the Final Four again, so you’ll go away.
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Hmmm heard just a STUNNING comment made during the game today , just happen to be about Marcus - -HEY HEM - -did you happen to hear this ? – now let’s see - -what the hell was it they said? - -OH YA Now I remember , they were talking about what a good job Marcus had been doing - -let’s see oh ya - - they said " Garrett - - just been doing what he has been asked to do " - hmm dam - -are they sure? - - that can’t be can it? - - I mean that would mean Coach doesn’t think he is ummm a Liability - NOT if he is just doing what he has been asked to do - -oh well just curious if you happen to catch that too? - - Did you catch that Steve? – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Hey it’s Christmas, let’s drop this.
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@jayballer73 commentary is different from coaching…no one is questioning Garretts defense.
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jayballer73 said:
Hmmm heard just a STUNNING comment made during the game today , just happen to be about Marcus - -HEY HEM - -did you happen to hear this ? – now let’s see - -what the hell was it they said? - -OH YA Now I remember , they were talking about what a good job Marcus had been doing - -let’s see oh ya - - they said " Garrett - - just been doing what he has been asked to do " - hmm dam - -are they sure? - - that can’t be can it? - - I mean that would mean Coach doesn’t think he is ummm a Liability - NOT if he is just doing what he has been asked to do - -oh well just curious if you happen to catch that too? - - Did you catch that Steve? – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
is his firing away from 3 what he:s asked to do?
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
Hey it’s Christmas, let’s drop this.
Hey let’s make sure we emphasize this to EVERYONE about dropping this Ok - -especially at I post a thread and then see someone proudly making remarks about dropping ok? - -THANKS
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@jayballer73 I didn’t just say it to u, huh?
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Bwag said:
jayballer73 said:
Hmmm heard just a STUNNING comment made during the game today , just happen to be about Marcus - -HEY HEM - -did you happen to hear this ? – now let’s see - -what the hell was it they said? - -OH YA Now I remember , they were talking about what a good job Marcus had been doing - -let’s see oh ya - - they said " Garrett - - just been doing what he has been asked to do " - hmm dam - -are they sure? - - that can’t be can it? - - I mean that would mean Coach doesn’t think he is ummm a Liability - NOT if he is just doing what he has been asked to do - -oh well just curious if you happen to catch that too? - - Did you catch that Steve? – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
is his firing away from 3 what he:s asked to do?
ya his 2 shots was firing away thanks for bringing that up - - - - hmm do you think Coach was asking Dedric to pass up open shot - -after open shot-- -after open shot so he could try to get it in even deeper to Doke when Dedric was passing up like 7 ft jumpers – ya I’m sure Coach was asking him - - not sure if you seen other posters saying let’s drop this - – you catch that - I’m willing very willing to drop BUT yet when others seem like that can’t manage to do that - -well nuff said - -had no idea initial statement would bring so many interesting comments - - - - people just continue to want and rag on Garett but yet just blindly look away from many - -many- -many other constant liabilities from others - -we don’t want to talk about those do we? roflmao - -ok so like has been said—ENOUGH ALREADY
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@jayballer73 I didn’t just say it to u, huh?
very interesting that right after my post - - BAM you feel the need to make this statement - - - -kind of hard to NOT read into that - but ONCE again I’ll say like you said - -just drop the dam thing
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Where’s Jaybate when we need him?
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@jayballer73 if I meant it just to you I would have replied to you. Was trying to be a peacemaker here. I’m out!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Remember, peacemakers usually just get caught in the crossfire. Good try, though!
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@KUSTEVE The classic jackass. Traylor was horrible. Lucas pedestrian. Obvious to anyone with an objective brain (excludes you). Those are the players I ran down? Sold. Objective and obvious. As for Self, it is interesting that the points I was most critical about seem to have been modified by Self over the last few years. But don’t let that bother you. Your nose implanted.
But it is you that keeps picking this fight. Anytime you want to stop, that’s your call. Never starts from this end. But out of the blue you keep this crap up. If you want to continue, fine.
Now I’m taking @Crimsonorblue22’s advice. Peacemakers appreciated.
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Let’s cool it with the ad hominem. I think we’re all better than that on this site.
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Wow, this thread is a mess! Gonna shut it down.
