Vick Coming Back
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Diallo is still trying to figure it out!
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You are forgetting that Jaybate never lets the facts get in the way of his fantasyland stories.
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BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Self gets things wrong all the time.
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All the time?
Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?
As foolish as anyone that assumes he always gets it right.
Still waiting for Larry Brown quotes on Vick being a PG. I scoured the internet, found nothing. Maybe I’ve simply missed it.
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But of course I dont.
U always leave the best part out.
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@jaybate-1.0 NO - -jaybate – -NOT hell Mary - -it’s OH jerry lmao. - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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mercy me - – mercy me - -mercy me - - - people rippling waters - -seems to be some slight difference of opinions within the trible- -has to be the heat - -or the water lol - -let’s remember as I was told sometime back - -let’s play nice and enjoy - -yes - - yes - - yes that’s it – looking forward to Vick playing PG lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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California water rations maybe.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
You are forgetting that Jaybate never lets the facts get in the way of his fantasyland stories.
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BShark said:
California water rations maybe.
Yes that’s what it has to be - - some rations. - -And by the way mister - -no firecrackers for you - -you been to agrumentive ( is that even a word lmao ) - -no missle’s - -no Roman Candles no nothing lol
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The next thread in which I am hoping to follow back and forth disputationness is the one about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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@jaybate-1.0 I do seem to remember people suggesting that Frank couldn’t play point. I wasn’t one of them. His dribbling always looked very tight to me.
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NBA no has love for Vick. Vick needs home. Bill says drop crap and learn PG. Vick proves in NC season he can team it up and play PG. NBA loves Vick and he is 2nd round pick. Next.
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@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 There was discussions of Vick being a point guard when he came to Kansas. There is no doubt he was listed as SG and that’s been his only role here. The “Hurd” being referred to is Nathan Hurd, Vick’s AAU coach. While I don’t think he’ll play PG this season, it is pretty clear that this was a discussion point.
“He’s a natural 2-guard, very athletic. Coach Self said he’s going to have him play the 1, 2 and 3,” Hurd said. “He’s tall enough to play the 3. Two is his natural position, and he can handle the ball well enough to play 1. He’s going to have to get there, work hard and learn coach Self’s stuff. Talent-wise, he’s one of the most talented guys on the team as of right now, but he’s got to get there and work his butt off,” Hurd added.
http://m.kusports.com/news/2015/may/18/high-scoring-memphis-guard-lagerald-vick-picks-kan/
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Thx again for further clarification.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 There was discussions of Vick being a point guard when he came to Kansas. There is no doubt he was listed as SG and that’s been his only role here. The “Hurd” being referred to is Nathan Hurd, Vick’s AAU coach. While I don’t think he’ll play PG this season, it is pretty clear that this was a discussion point.
“He’s a natural 2-guard, very athletic. Coach Self said he’s going to have him play the 1, 2 and 3,” Hurd said. “He’s tall enough to play the 3. Two is his natural position, and he can handle the ball well enough to play 1. He’s going to have to get there, work hard and learn coach Self’s stuff. Talent-wise, he’s one of the most talented guys on the team as of right now, but he’s got to get there and work his butt off,” Hurd added.
http://m.kusports.com/news/2015/may/18/high-scoring-memphis-guard-lagerald-vick-picks-kan/
Sounds like it was recruit speak at this point. We all can take an educated guess that many coaches will lie to get commits. Calipari and Drew are prime offenders but I wouldn’t be surprised if Self made some suspect comments while trying to land a kid.
Like you said, he has only ever been a 2G here and now Self has a natural PG in Dotson and a small guard in Moore that you really don’t want playing outside of the 1/2.
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I agree, recruiting coach speak paraphrased by his HS coach and as far as I can tell not directly by Self. Technically, any player can play any position and in HS is not rare to see a 6’4" player playing Center and a 6’9" player bringing the ball up the court; the better players are also great athletes and so much better than the often weak HS competition that literally can play any position they want somewhat competently.
College is quite different, the competition level is considerably higher and players quickly learn they have a natural position which they will likely play and sometimes, they will play a position different than their natural one if lack of personnel dictates they do and when they do they are often at a disadvantage with opponents playing their natural positions.
If Vick was ever going to play PG, last season would have been his best chance since KU was sorely short at that position, instead, Coach Self decide to ride Graham like a rented mule and played him close to 40 minutes a game with Svi and Newman and occasionally Garret spelling him but I did not see Vick play PG at all.
KU has Moore and Dotson firmly entrenched as PGs and Grimes being next after showing in the FIBA under 18 tournament he could run a team, next candidate would be Garret who actually played PG in HS and after that KJ who has indicated that he is not a big but a big guard that can play and defend positions 1-4. I just don’t see a scenario where Vick would play PG at KU, none whatsoever…wishful thinking notwithstanding. If he did not play PG last season there is no way he plays PG this season.
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I agree with your basic point that the best HS players (the ones that go on to college) can shift around more than they can as they move up the ladder.
That said, Vick played a ton of minutes last year, and as one of KU’s best athletes, he was often asked to play PF because of KU’s lack of depth up front. Last year was probably the worst year for him to get minutes because he was being asked to play up front quite a bit. KU had no lineup where they were better served moving Vick to PG.
These last several KU teams have been guard heavy, but very light up front. If Sam Cunliffe was 6-8 or 6-9, he would have played 18 mpg last season.
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You can call him a point guard, a shooting guard, a wing, a stretch 4, …just as long as he hits the 3…who cares? It’s no skin off my nose if Jaybate wants to call him a point guard.
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Vick will wear #24 this year.
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Woodrow said:
Vick will wear #24 this year.
Thanks.
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@Woodrow More info out now
Gary Bedore Verified account @GaryBedore
KU senior Lagerald Vick will wear No. 24 his senior season. His No. 2 had been given to Charlie Moore when Vick declared for the draft. Why No. 24? Taken from Bible’s Book of Ephesians 4:22-24. Verse 24 is favorite part of passage of Vick and mom, his mom explained.
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Ephesians 4:22-24 New International Version (NIV) 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
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I see “Self” is mentioned twice…oh wait…never mind…
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@mayjay sounds good!
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Vick was the ultimate team player in the Duke game to take us to the Final Four. I’m sure that Self recalled how fantastic Vick has become in the middle of the zone. His pass to Newman in the Overtime was a thing of unselfish beauty. Watch the guys that are coming back this year. De Sousa played the entire overtime and though he threw the ball into the stands, He was a monster on the boards when KU needed him the most. The new guards need to quickly get up to speed on the lob. I hear that Garret is shining in practice.
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@wrwlumpy Garrett is great. Some people write him off because of his jump shot but in every other way he is at worst above average at basketball.
Also I can rewatch that game rewind any day!
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I’m already looking forward to the Grimes to Vick backdoor dunk. It’s going to be a great season. I can’t wait.
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@BShark I meant to post about Garrett, but there was some articles written about how he’s changed his jump shot and is working hard to be a better shooter.
http://www.gctelegram.com/sports/20180702/ku-sophomore-garrett-changing-shooting-form
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark I meant to post about Garrett, but there was some articles written about how he’s changed his jump shot and is working hard to be a better shooter.
http://www.gctelegram.com/sports/20180702/ku-sophomore-garrett-changing-shooting-form
If he gets his shooting numbers up there could be a very real chance he is one of the best couple players on the team.
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@wrwlumpy after that game I saw on tv, a huge hug from Vick to coach, it was very genuine too.
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Remember I said the same thing and you though i was…well… …starting the weekend early…
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@JayHawkFanToo haha gotem!
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@JayHawkFanToo I hope you are right. If I were having to bet on a specific percentage, I’d go 31%. Your “mid to upper 30s” is a bold one.
It does beg the question. If Garrett could change his form and work on his shot in the offseason, what was Doke doing last summer? Dunno.
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Haven’t really chimed in on this. Looks like it was a good thing.
I’m still shocked Vick is coming back. That seemed like a closed door to me. I’ve been fooled twice this off-season. First Doke returned and now Vick. Glad I was wrong.
The biggest question for me regarding this whole thing is what happens if he doesn’t ride the straight and narrow at every turn? Is this the final straw he’s been given? Will Self let him be a continued distraction if he reverts back to old habits? Distractions always end up hurting this team in the end.
What happens when the initial “I’m going to be different” wears off.
I know many of these questions we don’t have the answer too. We’ll have to see how it plays out
I hope he truly takes this chance to heart and becomes the player many of us thought he could be.
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Vick will be on a short leash and if he stray too much he will be gone. I would think one of the reason Coach Self let him come back is because after the Summer he will need just 12 credits to graduate which he can easily do it and graduate in December and, even if he is let go and does not make it to the NBA, at least he will have a college degree to get him started in the real world.
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HighEliteMajor said:
It does beg the question. If Garrett could change his form and work on his shot in the offseason, what was Doke doing last summer? Dunno.
Probably healing and getting physically into playing shape which he still is not quite there yet although he has made great progress. He averaged 23.6 mpg and was the only starter not to be in the 30s. Carrying 280 pounds, even on 7’ body has to be pretty taxing.
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@JayHawkFanToo Unfortunately there is no excuse. It was a miss by the coaching staff.
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I’ll wonder how short the leash is. We’ll find out. It would suck if he’s a starter and something happens. We have depth but this team likely is better with his skills on the floor.
Vick is in a great position to capitalize on his seniority given he’s the only senior. We know he doesn’t have the character of a leader but this is a great opportunity. Would love to see him step up the way Devonte and Frank did in prior seasons.
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@BeddieKU23 I agree on the leader thing. Folks can mature into being a leader, and folks can be shocked into reality. The change in perspective can be life altering. Now, of course, that might be too dramatic a wish here. But really, if he can just play his game on the Court and not be a distraction otherwise, we’d take that in a heartbeat. I am very optimistic – first team all conference optimism.
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Individuals show leadership in different ways. Some are vocal and demonstrative like Mason and Graham and others are more quiet and show leadership by example like Ellis and Lucas. I understand Lightfoot is a good one in practice and was very helpful to De Sousa. Some are good everyday leaders and some really shine under stress.
Vick is now in a situation where failure is not an option if he has any hope of playing at the next level. There is no going back to college fall back option and being dismissed from the team would be the kiss of death. I don’t believe we can expect to see a vocal Vick leader but hopefully he will let his game speak for him and provide leadership by example. Good Vick is All Conference and bad Vick does not see the second half of the season; I am hoping it is the first; I am sure we all are.
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Imagine if KU wins the tournament this year. Vick would have EE, EE, FF and a title. That would have to be the most success any player has had in the tournament while at KU.
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BShark said:
Imagine if KU wins the tournament this year. Vick would have EE, EE, FF and a title. That would have to be the most success any player has had in the tournament while at KU.
If that were to happen, Vick might finish his career as the winningest Jayhawk of all time. Currently, by my count the winningest four year players are Tyrel Reed, who won 132 games in his career, Elijah Johnson, who won 131 games in his career, then Sherron Collins with 130 wins.
Vick is at 97 wins right now, and with a loaded KU team this year, 36 wins, while a very high mark, isn’t out of the question, particularly if KU were to win the title. No national champ has won less than 32 games in a season since 2003 (Syracuse went 30-5), but since most national title game participants are playing in their 39th or 40th game of the season now, it’s unlikely this KU team would have that few wins if they were to win the title.
If this team wins a national title, Vick probably lands very close to being the winningest Jayhawk of all time, if he doesn’t end up with the top spot outright.
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https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article214618295.html
Here’s a pretty good article from Jesse Newell on the PT effect Vick will have on the rest of the roster.
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I’d be very happy if he’s not a distraction. I think we have other players more capable of becoming leaders if Vick cannot change who he is. Some can, some can’t and I won’t fault him for it. It’s still a tremendous opportunity though. It can be the driving force. He’s seen the drive of Frank and Devonte the past two seasons so the groundwork he’s witnessed first hand. He knows what’s expected of him if he does take that route.
For the better part of 2 years Vick has been a lingering distraction. Is there a bubble we can put Vick in off the court? Between the girlfriend issues and whatever ale’d him last season he’s certainly walked a thin line. Would be a great story at some point next season if he’s able to bounce back and help lead this promising squad to great things this upcoming season.
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I think that Newell overestimates Vick’s minutes. I find it odd that it has Grimes getting more minutes with Vick than without. I would guess nobody will be getting more than about 28-32 mpg with the depth KU has. I also think it is severely underestimating how much Devon Dotson will play. If Dotson is playing less than 15 mpg, I will be shocked. Charlie Moore is likely to see a good amount of time, but I’m not sure he gets quite that many minutes, particularly since Dotson may start, if not immediately then eventually.
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I’m really interested in the rotation for sure. I actually think Vick’s addition changes everyone’s minutes except Dotson and Grimes.
Vick’s addition means that there will be direct minutes taken away from Garrett and KJ at the 3.
There will also be indirect minutes taken from the post play, as well as an advantage gained, imo. Vick’s addition indirectly adds more depth to our post play by letting KJ get minutes at the 4. More depth means more aggression from our post players. More aggression means fewer, but more impactful minutes from Dedric and Doke. Below is my guess for the rotation and stats for players.
PG:
- Dotson: 28 MPG, 9 PPG, 3.8 AST, 3 TOV, 1.2 STL, 3 RBD
- Moore: 12 MPG, 3 PPG, 2 AST, 1 TOV, .5 STL, .5 RBD
SG:
- Grimes: 32 MPG, 14 PPG, 2.5 AST, 3 TOV, 1.2 STL, .5 BLK, 3 RBD
- Garrett: 8 MPG, 3 PPG, 1 AST, .2 TOV, 1 STL, .5 BLK, 3 RBD
SF:
- KJ: 20 MPG, 5 PPG, 1.2 AST, 1 TOV, 1 STL, .5 BLK, 4 RBD
- Vick: 20 MPG, 9 PPG, 1.2 AST, 1 TOV, 1 STL, .5 BLK, 2 RBD
PF:
- Dedric: 28 MPG, 14 PPG, 2 AST, 1.5 TOV, .8 STL, 2.5 BLK, 7 RBD
- KJ: 8 MPG, 4 PPG, .5 AST, .5 TOV, .2 STL, .3 BLK, 3 RBD
- Mitch: 4 MPG, 2 PPG, .1 AST, .1 TOV, .2 STL, 1 BLK, 3 RBD
C:
- Doke: 20 MPG, 11 PPG, .8 AST, 1.5 TOV, .5 STL, 2.5 BLK, 7 RBD
- De Sousa: 15 MPG, 5 PPG, .1 AST, 1.5 TOV, .3 STL, 1 BLK, 6 RBD
- Big Dave: 5 MPG, 2 PPG, .1 AST, .2 TOV, .2 STL, .5 BLK, 3 RBD
Team Line:
81 PPG, 15.3 AST, 14.5 TOV, 8.1 STL, 9.8 BLK, 44.5 RBD
Comparison to last season, for perspective:
I have us scoring roughly the same points as last season. While we may not be AS talented scoring the ball, this team will not go through those same periods of stalling with Devonte walking the ball up the court slowly. I also expect twice as many blocked shots and about 9 more rebounds per game. I expect a few more turnovers per game as well, with a rookie running point. I expect a 30% increase in steals, topping off what I consider to be a superior defensive team to last seasons. Perhaps, a superior defensive team to the rest of the country.
Comparison to 2008 team:
The 2008 team shared the ball amazingly well. Much better than my projections, although my first round saw us having close to the 18 per game the 2008 team had. Both teams should have similar defensive prowess, although I believe that this year’s team will block more shots than the 2008 bunch. I may have overprojected this season’s rebound numbers, but I also think this is a better rebounding team than 2008. KJ is a better rebounder than Rush, Dedric is the best rebounder out of both teams. The 2008 team was far from turnover prone, but they did take care of the ball better.
All in all, this team looks as good as any in the Self Era, at least on paper. What I expect is an elite defensive team that is able to play through the post, score consistently and still have the versatility to run and gun if needed. As long as everyone stays healthy, this is a FF or bust year imo.
Also note that my projections do not expect a crazy season from Dotson, and that if he develops into a player better than what I have projected here, this team is absolutely insane.
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There is some pressure on either Moore or Dotson to emerge. With so many weapons, you have to have a good PG to make sure everyone eats. RussRob did that exceptionally well in 2008 to be sure that Rush, Arthur and Chalmers all got opportunities every night.
Either Dotson or Moore has to be able to do the same for this team.
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I believe the number come from Bart Torvik and Newell was just using them but did not generate them himself.
