Billy Momma Drama
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@JayHawkFanToo You’ve made number of posts on this topic, and the NCAA. I could not agree more. You’ve hammered this issue perfectly.
It is quite easy to demonize the enforcer of the rules, and to whine about rules, but that usually comes from folks that don’t follow the rules (or even with notice of the rules, with everything on the line, still don’t take even the most obvious steps to ensure compliance). Excuses flow like a river. And the whining ignores the reason that there are so many rules, and so much specificity – because if you don’t have rules and specificity, the rules collapse under the pressure of the exceptions, as noted by good lawyers.
It may sound stupid that kid can’t accept one lousy meal from a KU alum, but that meal turns into a weekly event, a daily event, to twice a day, to stocking his refrigerator; then if it’s food, something that’s a necessity, why not clothes, or pizza money, or whatever. Everything is a slippery slope. That’s why on the edges, rules enforcement sounds petty. But it’s that “bright-line” that eliminates the slippery slope. That’s how the integrity of the game is protected. And the reality is, the integrity is in very large measure actually protected.
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“If there is a problem, which we are not saying there is, but if there is one, he has already sat how many games now? Fourteen games? Gosh dang,” Self said. “We certainly hope and believe that would be sufficient (penalty) if there is one (problem). We are not even admitting there is one. That’s where we are at right now.“
I believe this is called a non-denial denial?
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The NCAA is a big, easy and convenient target for people that really are clueless about its role in college sports.
The great majority of student athletes go through the process without any issues and it is the tinny minority that in many case have been given passes before college that believe the rules don’t apply to them that get in trouble and the “go to” answer is to blame the NCAA for doing its job.
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Think of it this way.
Let’s say two kids meet in high school on the basketball team. One kid (let’s call him “Superstar”) clearly has a college future. The other (let’s call him “Regular Joe”)is going to end up being just a regular HS basketball player. Regular Joe and Superstar become friends. Even though Regular Joe isn’t from a rich family, they do okay and they help Superstar out from time to time - rides to games, AAU tournaments, spending money on the weekends, etc. - because when Regular Joe and Superstar hang out, they don’t want Superstar to be left out.
Is that illegal? Is that wrong? Is that against NCAA rules? That’s a gray area, because they met in high school, when Superstar’s skill and opportunity were clear. But it’s clouded because the two kids are friends.
Now let’s say that Regular Joe’s family does have quite a bit of money, so it’s not just $20 on the weekend, or a trip with the family to a chain restaurant to celebrate a birthday - now it’s paying for prom tuxes and limos, or paying for AAU trips. Is that illegal? Wrong? Against NCAA rules?
The question of how long you have to know someone has long haunted the NCAA because sports cross the normal income lines drawn by real estate and work. A talented, athletic kid can get a chance to go to a private school that he could not otherwise afford, where he ends up becoming friends with kids he would never meet, or dating a girl whose father owns a bunch of local businesses.
But to the NCAA, those relationships were created because of the kid’s athletic talent, so they can be questioned.
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@JayHawkFanToo Informative noninformation.
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@cragarhawk I agree it is perfectly reasonable to assume there is something, and Self’s comment seems to reinforce that. It is the inferences that his family is dragging their feet to not comply because they are crooked, and the accusations that KU compliance is screwing up, that I think are based solely on the delay, that I think are unjustified. Flowing purely out of fan impatience, and leading to the anger at her for daring to speak out.
I would love Bill’s salary, but I couldn’t handle all the crap.
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@JayHawkFanToo Actually it sounds a lot more like a non-admission admission…
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@mayjay … so you’re saying @JayHawkFanToo is right, correct?
@justanotherfan You’re choosing to play in the NCAA, you deal with their rules. Insert “mentor” for average joe, and you see the enforcement issue.
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@JayHawkFanToo If you feel the need/desire to gift any more money to anyone - send me an email.
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mayjay said:
It is the inferences that his family is dragging their feet to not comply because they are crooked, and the accusations that KU compliance is screwing up, that I think are based solely on the delay, that I think are unjustified.
I can’t remember anyone saying that Billy and/or his family is/are crooked. In fact, I specifically indicated that even if they received money/car/benefits from a third party, there is nothing illegal or crooked about it…it just happens to be against NCAA rules designed to provide a level field and that every othre student athlete complies with no issues.
I don’t seem to recall any allegations either that the Compliance Office is screwing up. I have pointed out that hey are just doing their due diligence as any competent and responsible office would do.
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My days of gifting are gone. I am planning for my own retirement now.
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@JayHawkFanToo I wasn’t just referrng to here. I have read comments telling his mom to just shut up, telling them both to take a hike, and excoriating our compliance department for neither knowing about the car nor getting the investigation settled quickly.
@HighEliteMajor Sometimes he is right, and other times…maybe not so much. Heck, sometimes you are right, and even I am.
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A broken clock is right twice a day.
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@JayHawkFanToo We used to have a grandfathers clock that had a loose minute hand. Sometimes, but not always, it would slip back down toward the 6 instead of going on up around. It was maddening to figure out when it was right.
Yes, watching that damned clock for hours, waiting to see if the hand slipped, is what sent me over the edge.
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You need to come back from the edge.
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@JayHawkFanToo Might join the Flat Earthers, what the heck. As long as I’m here.
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@JayHawkFanToo I said he was sleazy. I’m sorry his mom’s feelings are hurt. Maybe i shouldn’t be this way, but I care more about KU basketball than i do his Mom’s feelings. Common sense says there is something that was done that was not within the framework of the rules that are clearly laid out. Maybe it was a simple mistake - maybe it was willful disregard of the rules. Now, i absolutely don’t agree with fans reaching out to the family and saying nasty things at all- that is way, way out of bounds, and should be condemned. But, that is far cry from complaining about a kid that didn’t follow the rules, and severely impacted his team.
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Innocent until proven guilty. Isn’t that what makes our country judicial system stand out?
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@KUSTEVE I am always glad that KU has a rep for trying to follow the rules. The stories told by prior players always paint a picture of the concern by our coaches of how the players develop not just as players but also as quality young men.
With that in mind, I doubt HCBS would work so hard to protect B Preston’s eligibility if he doubted his character.
And, since we obviously want to hold athletes to a bright line test of knowing exactly what is legit and what is not, I fervently believe that all of us KU fans report every nickel of our income including gains on sales of cars and other personal property, estimate all our Goodwill donation deductions using actual FMV, and have always made sure to pay all use taxes on out of state internet purchases.
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The Preston Situation is causing cabin fever among the board rats. Everyone is turning on the other…
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Gunman said:
Innocent until proven guilty. Isn’t that what makes our country judicial system stand out?
This isn’t a legal case though and the NCAA doesn’t have the same rules as our court systems do.
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Self said “any minute” last night, I think. Decision should come soon. Now, I will puke.
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I was not an athlete coming out of HS. Wasn’t good enough. As a result, when I found mentors in my chosen profession, I didn’t have the NCAA trying to declare me ineligible, or say I couldn’t accept my scholarship, or tons of fans questioning the motives and character of myself or my family. I was able to get help and guidance from some people that, to this day, I respect a great deal. To put it simply, I know that I would not be the professional I am today, or the man I am today, without the mentorship of those individuals.
The NCAA would benefit greatly if some of these guys actually could form relationships with guys that walked their path. Wouldn’t it be great if Billy Preston actually had the chance to form a relationship with a guy like Wayne Simien, or could talk to Darnell Jackson about what it’s like to go through tough times in college?
Heck, wouldn’t it have been great if a guy like Jacque Vaughn or Kirk Hinrich could have talked to someone like Josh Selby about how to contribute even when you’re injured, or a guy like Xavier Henry having a chance to get to know Paul Pierce.
Sports is the only forum in which the current system basically forbids the next generation from developing those mentorship relationships until after they are professionals, when that next generation is competing with those guys for jobs, minutes, contracts, endorsements, etc.
I know, I know, rules, rules, rules.
But someone needs to honestly say one simple thing - this is stupid.
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@justanotherfan is it rules that limits those relationships or is it that the former hawks are off living their own lives?
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HighEliteMajor said:
Self said “any minute” last night, I think. Decision should come soon. Now, I will puke.
Ya and on top of that NOW if you go and read the article off the LJW Self is now starting to give excuses as to why it’s taking longer for De Sousa to be cleared.
I give up it’s looking more and more like we won’t get either of them for this by the time it is all said and done
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Can’t speak to it’s validity. But a friend today said he saw rumor on a friend’s fb page that Preston is cleared. The friend of my friend is an Alumni. I have seen nothing yet that supports this. So who knows
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@cragarhawk thanks for the scoop!
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The principle that an individual is “presumed” incident until proven guilty is not unique to our legal system, it is part of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states: “Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.”
Having said that, the NCAA is not a court of law, it is an institution which universities voluntarily join and have a saying in the operation. Likewise, student athletes do not have to follow the rules and they do not have to play NCAA sports, they can play under different organizations with different rules. If they choose to play for a NCAA member school they must follow all the rules. It is really that simple.
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TTBOMK, none of the mentorship you named are prohibited by the NCAA; Wayne Simien is a mentor to many players through his Called to Greatness Campus Ministry. The problem happens when mentors start providing impermissible benefits, particularly when the benefits involve a quid pro quo.
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Seems to me the situation must be more complicated than Billy and his Mom(s) either unknowingly or intentionally breaking some NCAA rule. If that was the case, it would have been settled in one day. They aren’t stupid, and KU wouldn’t have wasted time on it. If it turns out that his Mom’s partner bought the car, I can see how it could fall into a gray area of rules interpretation for the NCAA, particularly if Billy and his Mom didn’t think they’d need to include compliance/financial stuff about her partner up front. So that could be the issue (and would make sense with the “personal lives” stuff she tweeted about). Would also make sense why it took so long to establish her relationship with Billy. Kind of hate to speculate, but why not? Everyone else has.
Clearly at this point, if Billy and his mom had been “caught” bamboozling KU or the NCAA he’d be LONG gone, so the fact that it’s dragged on beyond last semester is a positive sign to me.
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Maybe Billy is innocent here, maybe his Mother is right. Maybe not. Maybe naive in not even thinking the car he was driving would ever be in question. It’s a plauisble thought.
I don’t know whether the issue is centered around pre-existing relationships Billy or his family has with someone, if that is the reason KU compliance and the NCAA have taken a deeper look.
Nobody would care where the car comes from if he wasn’t an athlete trying to play basketball. A Student wouldn’t miss 14 going on 15 days of class for this.
The rules may be flawed, they are the rules but it doesn’t mean they are right. Let’s not act like the NCAA hasn’t made some mind-boggling decisions in the past.
Cliff Alexander was ineligible for a loan his mother took without his knowledge?. How was that his fault? If he knew about it, that changes things. Did we ever know whether Cliff knew anything?
The NCAA once suspended Baylor’s Perry Jones just before the start of the Big-12 tournament in 2011 and 5 games the following season because his mother accepted 3 seperate 15-day loans to keep Perry and their family from going homeless. They said Perry was suspended for “accepting impermissible benefits”. What exactly did Perry accept? The person who loaned the Jones money to pay their Mortgage was someone Perry and the family knew since the 6th grade.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/631738-baylor-basketball-breaking-down-perry-jones
I’m not assuming the Preston situation is the same as other cases but what if Billy is innocent as others have been in the past and still paid the price
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If we look at why it’s taken so much time, @mayjay’s suggestion of the difficulty getting paperwork from disinterested and unmotivated third parties is the most reasonable of the benign explanations.
“Innocence” of course is relative – meaning, the NCAA rules determine “innocence” so to speak. That doesn’t mean we like it, or that “innocence” equates with the kid having done absolutely nothing wrong on his end. If Billy was driving a car that his mom gave him and told him was his from her, but she accepted money from someone she shouldn’t have, without Billy’s knowledge, Billy is “innocent” in our eyes, but not to the NCAA. We are all prejudiced (or benefit by) our parents. Parents, as in Cliff’s case (as @BeddieKU23 mentioned), seem to have caused Cliff’s issue. Life’s rough.
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The third party angle would make sense.
“she accepted money from someone she shouldn’t have, without Billy’s knowledge, Billy is “innocent” in our eyes, but not to the NCAA.”
Also a valid statement. With Self’s recent comments it would seem to indicate they are banking on “time served” already. “KU’s de-facto hold-out/in-house-suspension” would be sufficient to cover what they found out about the car.
My second thought, why does the NCAA have rules that would penalize the student athlete if they are innocent in any wrong doing, however the parents/family made a mistake. It begs the question whether the NCAA should be in the game of penalizing an athlete for his parent(s) issue. Isn’t judging whether the student (Billy) in this case did something wrong more important… I’m just having a hard time figuring out where the line is in all this
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@BeddieKU23 Frankly, it would be too easy to transfer lots of goodies to a family and then claim the kid didn’t know. If we or anyone else claims “unfair treatment” now when, say, UNC doesn’t get slammed, imagine the outcry when bluebloods (where the recruits worth paying for tend to end up) figure out how to have their innocent little waifs commit while those behind-their-backs family members suddenly start driving new cars, taking trips to follow their darlings, and moving into nicer homes.
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Sorry I was a bit harsh on Billy and his mother. But I’m sick of these guys coming in here with their families and turning our athletic department (and reputation) into a Jerry Springer show.
These kids and parents should realize they are only damaging themselves. No NBA team hunts out drama as a positive factor when picking players.
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We need to FORMALIZE the training of recruits/players in staying between the lines.
It should be done with forms of media, like short films. And then Q&As afterwards to make sure it soaks in, while we document that our players are in full knowledge.
These are educational items that should be organized and designed through our compliance program.
There is NO REASON why Kansas should go down for mistakes our players make as long as our coaches and administration play fair ball.
Document, document, document.
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Lonzo Ball did go 2nd in the draft with as much drama associated to his name as any player I could think of…
I certainly don’t agree with his mother’s comments making headlines. It’s not a good look.
Ultimately the man in charge of our program must make the call on these situations. Billy could have been someone else’s problem to deal with…
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@Gunman Innocent until proven guilty.
Unless you’re 11-3 with 3 home losses. Then you are stone cold guilty and somebody better do something about it damn quick.
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True… but Ball is an ongoing story. We will see how that plays out in the long run. If it goes bad, I think more NBA front offices will look to stay away from drama.
Some drama is actually needed in sports. We only have to think back to the Magic/Bird era and their controversies. That was “good drama.” Fans loved it!
But Ball’s dad is just an arse. I always try to put the game ahead of the drama… but it is hard to watch Lonzo with approval while his dad may be killing viewership of the game.
Pretty much all pro sports are facing viewership issues. I don’t think “Ball-like” drama is going to rescue them. Eventually, marketing wonks will come out of the woods and point fingers at Ball’s dad, regardless of whether he did so much damage or not. It is about blaming someone else.
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If Ball falls out of the NBA, it will have more to do with his production than his dad’s mouth.
Right now, he’s averaging 10/7/7. That’s not great. I thought his assist numbers would be better, and I thought he would shoot better from 3 (currently under 30%). If this continues, he won’t make it. If he bumps that assist number up to 8.5, and starts shooting more in the 35% range from 3, Lonzo goes from being an iffy player to being a solid player. Not a star, but very solid, particularly because he can rebound and should be able to handle bigger guards in the post.
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I’ve been waiting for their 15 minutes of fame to end but it doesn’t seem like its happening anytime soon. ESPN seems set on covering what they eat for dinner, where they get their dry-cleaning. Heck they were front and center for the younger one’s practice in Lithuiana today!!! Seems as if the fabricated drama Lavar created has fooled everyone, he’s famous, his kids are famous. Drama sells…
Preston’s mom’s tweets, that’s not good drama. Whether she’s right in the matter is irrelevant to the distraction it continues to bring. She called out a fan-base. What if Billy is cleared to play in the home game next week, does he get a roar from the crowd or do people take his mother’s comments to heart. I have a feeling the 16,300 would support him with open arms as we do any Hawk. It does beg the question though
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justanotherfan said:
If Ball falls out of the NBA, it will have more to do with his production than his dad’s mouth.
Sure… but you can’t say his father’s actions have no impact. You can’t say that if there are two equal players, management wouldn’t rather take the one without drama.
RIght now… all pro sports teams are focusing on viewership. Winning games is still the major factor in that. But it isn’t everything. I watch some NBA. Ball’s dad is a big turnoff for me and definitely doesn’t inspire me to follow Lakers ball.
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True. At least, it sells for a while.
I think the general public will become EXTREMELY SICK of most drama this year. Our political dramas have become overwhelming for everyone, and people are suffering from drama fatigue.
If you want to look at drama that can have long lasting positive impact… look at JoJo’s personality! Look at how he is becoming a superstar and a chunk of that is his personality.
I think eventually we will get away from being a society where one can claim, “ALL publicity is GOOD publicity!”
At least… I hope so! lol
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Agree with everything you said.
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This forum is so refreshing! I happened upon a facebook group that is called Kansas University Basketball Recruiting. I thought, oh, that looks interesting, so I liked it. Big mistake, but now I have a purpose there. It’s hilarious. Type something like “Dang this team is soft” and here’s a typical response: “Get lost troll” “GTFO” “You’re not a KU fan” One guy whom I questioned about his post that the NCAA always picks on us, nobody else asked why I’m on there because I’m obviously a Duke or Kentucky fan. When I asked him if he wanted to see my KU degree, he doubted that. I asked him if he was a KU grad. He had no response!
Most of the posts this week have been people contributing nothing more than “I don’t care what happens, I’m a Jayhawk fan for life because I bleed Crimson and Blue”
Of course very little of it has to do with KU recruiting.
Then the thread on Billy’s moms tweet took on a decidedly different tone than here. No objectivity, just a bunch of absolute 100% agreement with what she wrote. Anyone who did question it was called all sorts of names.
One person even called me a Wisconsin fan to which I pled guilty. Even with every privacy setting possible on FB he figured that out!
BTW this could be the year two impressive streaks ends, our conference championship streak and UW’s NCAA tournament streak.
Anyways, this cordial discussion I read through today has been a good reminder of what we have here! I appreciate you guys and gals!
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Facebook is terrible.
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I kind of like to think of myself as the @elpoyo of the facebook group!
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@drgnslayr It’s who can be the loudest bigmouth. It’s just part of our overall cultural decline. It’s chest pounding, screaming, “look at me” garbage that has spread like a cancer since it began back in the 90s. Now we see these idiots pounding their chests and screaming because they make a routine tackle. It’s a joke. And it’s proliferated with the disease that is social media.
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@HighEliteMajor I’d pound my chest if I made a routine tackle.
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@HighEliteMajor I notice it more even at HS and Jr. High levels these days. All that type of thing was strictly verboten when I played. In fact. Any sort of end zone celebration at all after a touchdown would get you unsportsmanlike… I’m not sure why or when it all became okay. I find myself looking for the kids that don’t do it. It’s a rarity.
