Billy Momma Drama
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Don’t you think that being that involved in college basketball and AAU she would know what is or isn’t legal?
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@JayHawkFanToo she’s his mom too
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Then it would not be illegal, right?
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@JayHawkFanToo idk, NCAA has some crazy rules!
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The NCAA rules are fairly straight forward and readily available and the great majority of student athletes have no problem following them.
I know you are trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, I understand and I get it but your grasping at straws. Again, if the car would have been obtained on the up and up the issue would have been resolved in one day. The fact it has taken this long and KU chose to sit Billy would appear to indicate that there were irregularities, don’t you agree on at least this much?
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@JayHawkFanToo You don’t have any evidence they didn’t do things right, so why speculate so extremely. When we do have info, have at it. Impatience is not an excuse for jumping to conclusions. “Must have done something wrong” is a bit much.
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@DanR What parent wouldn’t be pissed that their kid is costing their team a chance at a 14th consecutive Conference Championship and a realistic shot at doing anything in the NCAA Tournament?
That’s just good parenting.
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@DanR oops - just read further about your explanation - so never mind my smart ass remarks.
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I absolutely believe it’s completely reasonable to think things are not above board in the BP situation. Why would we think anything else at this point honestly? What’s the other option? The KU compliance office has it out for BP? Not likely. The KU compliance office has whiffed on this entire situation and is completely incompetent? Hmmm. I think let’s hope not lest we find out what all other irregularities have been mismanaged thru the years. Is it speculation? Of course. But it’s a very very reasonable assumption at minimum. I realize some don’t wish to believe that and that’s fine. But the other options are much like @JayHawkFanToo says in my opinion “grasping at straws”. I also realize the entirety of society likes to decide what is politically correct and who can say what about what these days. But none of this is bashing BP or his family. Maybe other ppl and posts are doing that. But suggesting that there’s been something illegally obtained in the eyes of amateurism with the current info we have is simply not and unreasonable thing at all.
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@cragarhawk There are so many variables in any investigation that any difficulty or complication can thoroughly gum up the works. Self’s discussion of this in last night’s KC Star article is quite enlightening, and might help dispel the urge to assume that a serious infraction is causing the delay.
We think of these things as just asking for some info and documents, then submitting it to the NCAA. But just figuring out who to contact, how they should be approached, and what to ask can involve numerous hours of background investigation, interviews, and acquisition of other documents. Strategy and legal advice sessions all have to be squeezed into normal staff routines, which for a bb team includes trips to games almost every week, and recruiting visits more often than we realize. There are also inevitable media sessions and meetings with supervisory school admins who don’t want to be left out. And all that is just what is involved in the school, and doesn’t even address the need for followup after followup as people don’t have what you want or don’t want to provide it and require persuasion. When the information gathering becomes complete, there is another lengthy round of legal involvement in the preparation of affidavits, with many possible exchanges to get every T crossed and I dotted while everyone tries to make sure there is no unexplained fact, unidentified name, or unexplored avenue.
Then there is the the hint we received from @RockChalkinTexas that they are trying to acqquire funding to pay for the car. Title tracing, loan applications, employment and pay histories, credit checks (and perhaps cleanups), proof of sources of funds for months if not years–all that can be a mess, especially in a nontraditional family where unmarried folks have lived together for years and shared expenses. And people and banks and car dealers do not always respond when you want them to. It took my car dealer 5 and 1/2 weeks just to send me my tags and regis to replace my 6-week temp ones, despite my calling them weekly, and I finally got them only 2 days before going on a cross-country trip. What is important to our fans may be a lower priority to third parties, assuming they cooperate at all.
And then the NCAA is going to take time to go over everything with their own magnifying glasses.
Self says the amount of detail they have had to gather in an effort to anticipate any issues is staggering. Anyone who has conducted a financial investigation knows that finding out what happened can be the easiest part. Being able to track it all down and prove it without leaving any stone unturned can be, simply put, the biggest pain in the ass you have ever experienced.
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I saw this tweet posted on another board that could actually be some solid information in this whole situation.
“The Billy Preston situation will come down to the NCAA’s definition of what a pre-existing relationship is. How long do you have to know someone, so that they are considered a family friend and not an agent/representative.”
Further tweets by this same person spoke on this making sense into why it took so long to gather information/evidence, why his Mom says they are innocent and why KU had to turn over documents to the NCAA. From what we gather Billy’s family has been involved in Professional Basketball in some capacity in the past. The car could have been provided by a friend of the family and that relationship is in question and has required a paper trail… Who knows.
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If they did things right, the issue would have been resolved in a day or there would have not been an issue in the first place. If they did things right, KU would be playing Billy and not sitting him while the investigation goes on; remember that KU sat Alexander when it sensed a rules violation and it turned out to be a wise decision? If Billy and family felt everything was done above board they would have asked that Billy start playing a long time ago; even now, the family has nor asked that Billy start playing, at least not publicly or that we know, right?
There is nothing “illegal” with someone giving Billy or you or me (I wish) a car; however, it is against NCAA rules and every HS athlete with aspiration to play college ball knows it. I have gifted money before and you have likely done so yourself and so you probably know that as long as you stay within the $10K IRS limit, is not even taxable. There is now an appeal against the FBI indictments that states there was nothing “illegal” with Adidas or any other firm giving money to an individual; it might be against NCAA rules but it is not illegal. I indicated before that the actual crime might end up being tax evasion by the recipients and not the money itself.
There is no doubt there were “irregularities” of unknown extent in the acquisition of the car and KU self reported it to the NCAA, it would have not done so if it thought it was above board. Don’t you think Coach Self is on the phone every day telling the Compliance Office that it is costing him dearly on the basketball court…and we know his word carries considerable weight at KU? Right?
There seems to be a lot of smoke and likely a fire; it might have been a small fire and already extinguished but the smoke has already created a lot of damage.
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@mayjay I understand your point of view. It probably is a pain in the ass that we will never fully understand. Obviously the situation isn’t as clear cut as “the car is registered to BP or his mother and she has the documents to prove that and how it was acquired”. That would be the day or 2 scenario… In which it would never have had to have multiple more facts gathered, multiple parties contacted and interviewed. Pain in the ass t’s crossed and I’s dotted. And weeks and weeks of getting to the bottom of it before having to turn it over to the NCAA. So while yes I will admit it is possible that everything is above board and it’s just been a perfect storm/nightmare paperwork fiasco or whatever. I still contend it’s reasonable to assume the opposite. Also feel it’s okay to speculate. After all, that’s all any of us do here about any subject honestly. Minus the posting of obvious facts, stats etc. When they are available.
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Self’s latest comments regarding the duo of P and Sousa
Bill Self says Kansas’ basketball program will find out “very, very soon” if and when freshman forward Billy Preston will be able to play in games for the Jayhawks.
“It’s a situation right now where we think we could know any minute on what his situation is,” said Self, KU’s 15th-year coach, Wednesday night on his weekly Hawk Talk radio show. “We actually feel very good about what the NCAA has in their hands what we submitted,” Self added.
Kansas recently submitted to college’s governing body findings over an issue that that KU has said concerns the financial picture regarding a car Preston has been driving on campus this school year.
“We were hopeful for one (answer) last week,” Self said of final word from the NCAA on whether or not Preston can play. “The reason we didn’t get it … it’s not the NCAA’s fault folks. They way it (KU’s findings) had to be submitted, it had to be turned in after it was completely done with corrections so that way the NCAA doesn’t come back and say, ‘We need more information.’ We tried to make it a complete file.
“When we got it (completed), it was very close to Christmas break. People who need to review it (at NCAA) don’t report until Jan. 2 (after a holiday break that started Dec. 22). It’s been 10 to 12 days with not a lot being done with it. That’s not anybody’s fault at all. I know it’s frustrating. It’s more frustrating for Billy and obviously his mother more than anybody else. We think we’ll have a final decision on this very soon. When that decision is made we are optimistic and hoping for the best.”
The fact Preston has been held out 14 games while KU compliance looked into this case is quite significant, Self said.
“If there is a problem, which we are not saying there is, but if there is one, he has already sat how many games now? Fourteen games? Gosh dang,” Self said. “We certainly hope and believe that would be sufficient (penalty) if there is one (problem). We are not even admitting there is one. That’s where we are at right now.
“I’m trying to be patient. Certainly the NCAA knows obviously there is a lot at stake, but what is at stake more than anything else is a young man’s well being. I’m certainly hopeful that we’re going to have him real soon.”
Self addressed the matter of why this has taken so long for this situation to be resolved.
“There’s a lot of different things that go into it when you go through all records,” Self said. “As an institution I know we have done a nice job of being very thorough to the point we presented this after more interviews and things like that that you can imagine. If you think of it like this, if you are looking into something and someone tells you one name, you’ve got to go talk to that one name. If somebody tells you two names, that’s two more names you’ve got to go talk to.
“It takes a little bit longer to do a thorough job to present to the NCAA where they could make their final determination. I know we as an institution believe we have been very cautious and very thorough and basically a young man has been hurt a pretty fair amount by something that he is totally oblivious to,” added Self, who did not expand on what that might be.
“Still,” Self continued, “by the rules and letter of the law, the rules say this, that you have to approach it that way.
Self added that “it would be nice if we would have been able to get all the information to them a month ago. That’s not the the NCAA’s fault. That’s not our fault. That was us continuing and attorneys continually trying to put the thing together (for NCAA review). I wish it was something you just say, ‘OK here is the situation. Boom. Here is one piece of paper that describes everything that could possibly have transpired with this.’ It’s a little bit more complicated than that.”
As far as the final report to the NCAA, Self stressed: “I feel good about it, that it’s an honest assessment on what has transpired.”
Meanwhile, the NCAA also is reviewing freshman forward Silvio De Sousa’s amateurism status, as it does all incoming student-athletes. De Sousa recently graduated from IMG Academy and is going through the normal process to get cleared to play college basketball, in his case starting immediately.
Self said it still could be a few days before De Sousa is cleared for participation.
“There’s obviously questions when you have an international player,” Self said. De Sousa hails from Angola.
“What teams did he play for? What travel teams did he play for? Were there professionals on the travel teams? If there were professionals did you get expenses? Did you get more than expenses/ How did you get from there to here? Who paid for it? You have all these amateurism questions that have to be answered,” Self said. “We just have to get them answered. We think we can have all answers hopefully to the NCAA in the next day or two. They’ll follow up if they have anything more they need to find out about.”
Self said De Sousa is in the process of learning the system and is a ways away from being able to contribute in games.
“He’ll need time. You need time to play without thinking,” Self said. “OK, if we run 2-3 zone what do you do? What’s the base thing to do if we run man or whatever. It’s getting him comfortable with the most simple things. We’re still probably a week or 10 days if things go perfect where he’d be able to play significant minutes and help us.”
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@JayHawkFanToo You’ve made number of posts on this topic, and the NCAA. I could not agree more. You’ve hammered this issue perfectly.
It is quite easy to demonize the enforcer of the rules, and to whine about rules, but that usually comes from folks that don’t follow the rules (or even with notice of the rules, with everything on the line, still don’t take even the most obvious steps to ensure compliance). Excuses flow like a river. And the whining ignores the reason that there are so many rules, and so much specificity – because if you don’t have rules and specificity, the rules collapse under the pressure of the exceptions, as noted by good lawyers.
It may sound stupid that kid can’t accept one lousy meal from a KU alum, but that meal turns into a weekly event, a daily event, to twice a day, to stocking his refrigerator; then if it’s food, something that’s a necessity, why not clothes, or pizza money, or whatever. Everything is a slippery slope. That’s why on the edges, rules enforcement sounds petty. But it’s that “bright-line” that eliminates the slippery slope. That’s how the integrity of the game is protected. And the reality is, the integrity is in very large measure actually protected.
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“If there is a problem, which we are not saying there is, but if there is one, he has already sat how many games now? Fourteen games? Gosh dang,” Self said. “We certainly hope and believe that would be sufficient (penalty) if there is one (problem). We are not even admitting there is one. That’s where we are at right now.“
I believe this is called a non-denial denial?
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The NCAA is a big, easy and convenient target for people that really are clueless about its role in college sports.
The great majority of student athletes go through the process without any issues and it is the tinny minority that in many case have been given passes before college that believe the rules don’t apply to them that get in trouble and the “go to” answer is to blame the NCAA for doing its job.
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Think of it this way.
Let’s say two kids meet in high school on the basketball team. One kid (let’s call him “Superstar”) clearly has a college future. The other (let’s call him “Regular Joe”)is going to end up being just a regular HS basketball player. Regular Joe and Superstar become friends. Even though Regular Joe isn’t from a rich family, they do okay and they help Superstar out from time to time - rides to games, AAU tournaments, spending money on the weekends, etc. - because when Regular Joe and Superstar hang out, they don’t want Superstar to be left out.
Is that illegal? Is that wrong? Is that against NCAA rules? That’s a gray area, because they met in high school, when Superstar’s skill and opportunity were clear. But it’s clouded because the two kids are friends.
Now let’s say that Regular Joe’s family does have quite a bit of money, so it’s not just $20 on the weekend, or a trip with the family to a chain restaurant to celebrate a birthday - now it’s paying for prom tuxes and limos, or paying for AAU trips. Is that illegal? Wrong? Against NCAA rules?
The question of how long you have to know someone has long haunted the NCAA because sports cross the normal income lines drawn by real estate and work. A talented, athletic kid can get a chance to go to a private school that he could not otherwise afford, where he ends up becoming friends with kids he would never meet, or dating a girl whose father owns a bunch of local businesses.
But to the NCAA, those relationships were created because of the kid’s athletic talent, so they can be questioned.
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@JayHawkFanToo Informative noninformation.
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@cragarhawk I agree it is perfectly reasonable to assume there is something, and Self’s comment seems to reinforce that. It is the inferences that his family is dragging their feet to not comply because they are crooked, and the accusations that KU compliance is screwing up, that I think are based solely on the delay, that I think are unjustified. Flowing purely out of fan impatience, and leading to the anger at her for daring to speak out.
I would love Bill’s salary, but I couldn’t handle all the crap.
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@JayHawkFanToo Actually it sounds a lot more like a non-admission admission…
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@mayjay … so you’re saying @JayHawkFanToo is right, correct?
@justanotherfan You’re choosing to play in the NCAA, you deal with their rules. Insert “mentor” for average joe, and you see the enforcement issue.
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@JayHawkFanToo If you feel the need/desire to gift any more money to anyone - send me an email.
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mayjay said:
It is the inferences that his family is dragging their feet to not comply because they are crooked, and the accusations that KU compliance is screwing up, that I think are based solely on the delay, that I think are unjustified.
I can’t remember anyone saying that Billy and/or his family is/are crooked. In fact, I specifically indicated that even if they received money/car/benefits from a third party, there is nothing illegal or crooked about it…it just happens to be against NCAA rules designed to provide a level field and that every othre student athlete complies with no issues.
I don’t seem to recall any allegations either that the Compliance Office is screwing up. I have pointed out that hey are just doing their due diligence as any competent and responsible office would do.
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My days of gifting are gone. I am planning for my own retirement now.
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@JayHawkFanToo I wasn’t just referrng to here. I have read comments telling his mom to just shut up, telling them both to take a hike, and excoriating our compliance department for neither knowing about the car nor getting the investigation settled quickly.
@HighEliteMajor Sometimes he is right, and other times…maybe not so much. Heck, sometimes you are right, and even I am.
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A broken clock is right twice a day.
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@JayHawkFanToo We used to have a grandfathers clock that had a loose minute hand. Sometimes, but not always, it would slip back down toward the 6 instead of going on up around. It was maddening to figure out when it was right.
Yes, watching that damned clock for hours, waiting to see if the hand slipped, is what sent me over the edge.
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You need to come back from the edge.
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@JayHawkFanToo Might join the Flat Earthers, what the heck. As long as I’m here.
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@JayHawkFanToo I said he was sleazy. I’m sorry his mom’s feelings are hurt. Maybe i shouldn’t be this way, but I care more about KU basketball than i do his Mom’s feelings. Common sense says there is something that was done that was not within the framework of the rules that are clearly laid out. Maybe it was a simple mistake - maybe it was willful disregard of the rules. Now, i absolutely don’t agree with fans reaching out to the family and saying nasty things at all- that is way, way out of bounds, and should be condemned. But, that is far cry from complaining about a kid that didn’t follow the rules, and severely impacted his team.
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Innocent until proven guilty. Isn’t that what makes our country judicial system stand out?
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@KUSTEVE I am always glad that KU has a rep for trying to follow the rules. The stories told by prior players always paint a picture of the concern by our coaches of how the players develop not just as players but also as quality young men.
With that in mind, I doubt HCBS would work so hard to protect B Preston’s eligibility if he doubted his character.
And, since we obviously want to hold athletes to a bright line test of knowing exactly what is legit and what is not, I fervently believe that all of us KU fans report every nickel of our income including gains on sales of cars and other personal property, estimate all our Goodwill donation deductions using actual FMV, and have always made sure to pay all use taxes on out of state internet purchases.
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The Preston Situation is causing cabin fever among the board rats. Everyone is turning on the other…
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Gunman said:
Innocent until proven guilty. Isn’t that what makes our country judicial system stand out?
This isn’t a legal case though and the NCAA doesn’t have the same rules as our court systems do.
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Self said “any minute” last night, I think. Decision should come soon. Now, I will puke.
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I was not an athlete coming out of HS. Wasn’t good enough. As a result, when I found mentors in my chosen profession, I didn’t have the NCAA trying to declare me ineligible, or say I couldn’t accept my scholarship, or tons of fans questioning the motives and character of myself or my family. I was able to get help and guidance from some people that, to this day, I respect a great deal. To put it simply, I know that I would not be the professional I am today, or the man I am today, without the mentorship of those individuals.
The NCAA would benefit greatly if some of these guys actually could form relationships with guys that walked their path. Wouldn’t it be great if Billy Preston actually had the chance to form a relationship with a guy like Wayne Simien, or could talk to Darnell Jackson about what it’s like to go through tough times in college?
Heck, wouldn’t it have been great if a guy like Jacque Vaughn or Kirk Hinrich could have talked to someone like Josh Selby about how to contribute even when you’re injured, or a guy like Xavier Henry having a chance to get to know Paul Pierce.
Sports is the only forum in which the current system basically forbids the next generation from developing those mentorship relationships until after they are professionals, when that next generation is competing with those guys for jobs, minutes, contracts, endorsements, etc.
I know, I know, rules, rules, rules.
But someone needs to honestly say one simple thing - this is stupid.
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@justanotherfan is it rules that limits those relationships or is it that the former hawks are off living their own lives?
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HighEliteMajor said:
Self said “any minute” last night, I think. Decision should come soon. Now, I will puke.
Ya and on top of that NOW if you go and read the article off the LJW Self is now starting to give excuses as to why it’s taking longer for De Sousa to be cleared.
I give up it’s looking more and more like we won’t get either of them for this by the time it is all said and done
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Can’t speak to it’s validity. But a friend today said he saw rumor on a friend’s fb page that Preston is cleared. The friend of my friend is an Alumni. I have seen nothing yet that supports this. So who knows
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@cragarhawk thanks for the scoop!
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The principle that an individual is “presumed” incident until proven guilty is not unique to our legal system, it is part of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states: “Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.”
Having said that, the NCAA is not a court of law, it is an institution which universities voluntarily join and have a saying in the operation. Likewise, student athletes do not have to follow the rules and they do not have to play NCAA sports, they can play under different organizations with different rules. If they choose to play for a NCAA member school they must follow all the rules. It is really that simple.
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TTBOMK, none of the mentorship you named are prohibited by the NCAA; Wayne Simien is a mentor to many players through his Called to Greatness Campus Ministry. The problem happens when mentors start providing impermissible benefits, particularly when the benefits involve a quid pro quo.
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Seems to me the situation must be more complicated than Billy and his Mom(s) either unknowingly or intentionally breaking some NCAA rule. If that was the case, it would have been settled in one day. They aren’t stupid, and KU wouldn’t have wasted time on it. If it turns out that his Mom’s partner bought the car, I can see how it could fall into a gray area of rules interpretation for the NCAA, particularly if Billy and his Mom didn’t think they’d need to include compliance/financial stuff about her partner up front. So that could be the issue (and would make sense with the “personal lives” stuff she tweeted about). Would also make sense why it took so long to establish her relationship with Billy. Kind of hate to speculate, but why not? Everyone else has.
Clearly at this point, if Billy and his mom had been “caught” bamboozling KU or the NCAA he’d be LONG gone, so the fact that it’s dragged on beyond last semester is a positive sign to me.
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Maybe Billy is innocent here, maybe his Mother is right. Maybe not. Maybe naive in not even thinking the car he was driving would ever be in question. It’s a plauisble thought.
I don’t know whether the issue is centered around pre-existing relationships Billy or his family has with someone, if that is the reason KU compliance and the NCAA have taken a deeper look.
Nobody would care where the car comes from if he wasn’t an athlete trying to play basketball. A Student wouldn’t miss 14 going on 15 days of class for this.
The rules may be flawed, they are the rules but it doesn’t mean they are right. Let’s not act like the NCAA hasn’t made some mind-boggling decisions in the past.
Cliff Alexander was ineligible for a loan his mother took without his knowledge?. How was that his fault? If he knew about it, that changes things. Did we ever know whether Cliff knew anything?
The NCAA once suspended Baylor’s Perry Jones just before the start of the Big-12 tournament in 2011 and 5 games the following season because his mother accepted 3 seperate 15-day loans to keep Perry and their family from going homeless. They said Perry was suspended for “accepting impermissible benefits”. What exactly did Perry accept? The person who loaned the Jones money to pay their Mortgage was someone Perry and the family knew since the 6th grade.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/631738-baylor-basketball-breaking-down-perry-jones
I’m not assuming the Preston situation is the same as other cases but what if Billy is innocent as others have been in the past and still paid the price
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If we look at why it’s taken so much time, @mayjay’s suggestion of the difficulty getting paperwork from disinterested and unmotivated third parties is the most reasonable of the benign explanations.
“Innocence” of course is relative – meaning, the NCAA rules determine “innocence” so to speak. That doesn’t mean we like it, or that “innocence” equates with the kid having done absolutely nothing wrong on his end. If Billy was driving a car that his mom gave him and told him was his from her, but she accepted money from someone she shouldn’t have, without Billy’s knowledge, Billy is “innocent” in our eyes, but not to the NCAA. We are all prejudiced (or benefit by) our parents. Parents, as in Cliff’s case (as @BeddieKU23 mentioned), seem to have caused Cliff’s issue. Life’s rough.
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The third party angle would make sense.
“she accepted money from someone she shouldn’t have, without Billy’s knowledge, Billy is “innocent” in our eyes, but not to the NCAA.”
Also a valid statement. With Self’s recent comments it would seem to indicate they are banking on “time served” already. “KU’s de-facto hold-out/in-house-suspension” would be sufficient to cover what they found out about the car.
My second thought, why does the NCAA have rules that would penalize the student athlete if they are innocent in any wrong doing, however the parents/family made a mistake. It begs the question whether the NCAA should be in the game of penalizing an athlete for his parent(s) issue. Isn’t judging whether the student (Billy) in this case did something wrong more important… I’m just having a hard time figuring out where the line is in all this
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@BeddieKU23 Frankly, it would be too easy to transfer lots of goodies to a family and then claim the kid didn’t know. If we or anyone else claims “unfair treatment” now when, say, UNC doesn’t get slammed, imagine the outcry when bluebloods (where the recruits worth paying for tend to end up) figure out how to have their innocent little waifs commit while those behind-their-backs family members suddenly start driving new cars, taking trips to follow their darlings, and moving into nicer homes.
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Sorry I was a bit harsh on Billy and his mother. But I’m sick of these guys coming in here with their families and turning our athletic department (and reputation) into a Jerry Springer show.
These kids and parents should realize they are only damaging themselves. No NBA team hunts out drama as a positive factor when picking players.
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We need to FORMALIZE the training of recruits/players in staying between the lines.
It should be done with forms of media, like short films. And then Q&As afterwards to make sure it soaks in, while we document that our players are in full knowledge.
These are educational items that should be organized and designed through our compliance program.
There is NO REASON why Kansas should go down for mistakes our players make as long as our coaches and administration play fair ball.
Document, document, document.
