NOA response from KU discussion
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I’m afraid that this New Committee is looking to make a mark for it’self from the get go and KU is going to be the target.
I think they are going to be out to show that this committee isn’t going to put up with any Bull S - - - from anyone including a Blue Blood school and they going to use KU as an example. I’m not looking for anything good to come from these guys working our case - - and the thing is if they decide to run it up our arse then we have to take and smile because - - - NO APPEAL
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We should be afraid its new. It’s also the only hope at a fair shake.
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@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
We should be afraid its new. It’s also the only hope at a fair shake.
So very true & that’s a big reason I am worried like you. They are new They want to set an example.
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@jayballer73 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
We should be afraid its new. It’s also the only hope at a fair shake.
So very true & that’s a big reason I am worried like you. They are new They want to set an example.
If they purposefully seek to make an example of a program, schools are going to flat out refuse have cases go to them which is bad for business for the IARP. If the IARP goes too far the other way and absolves everything, the NCAA is going to refuse to have cases go the IARP route which again is bad for business for the IARP. It’s in the IARP’s best interest to be as fair and unbiased as possible so both schools and the NCAA will continue to allow the IARP to hear cases in the future.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 one hundred percent agree.
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KU did not waive its right to appeal if the IARP accepts its case. In the referral response they said this:
“Although KU believes it is more likely to receive a fair decision through the IARP, KU submits that the use of the IARP should not result in the inability to have the decision of the Independent Resolution Panel (IRP) reviewed by the federal courts, as the Rice Commission recommended. Accordingly, KU does not waive any right to seek a review and/or appeal in any forum should a procedural error occur or should the IRP render a decision or penalty that is not supported by the record in this case.”
NC St took a similar stance when they responded.
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It will be interesting if the NCAA tries to argue that since consenting to the non-appealable alternate panel is voluntary, it is akin to private arbitration. Most attempts to seek review of arbitration are fruitless under the American Arbitration Act, even if a party unilaterally tries to “reserve” their right to seek redress to the courts. But arbitration agreements are explicit in what rights they waive. I still doubt that courts would enforce the “no recourse” provision when faced with gross procedural violations (e.g., NCAA not adhering to their own rules) or manifest injustice.
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It was the NCAA that threw our case to the IRP, correct? To me, it shows weakness on their part and speaks volumes as to just how flimsy their case against us really is. Why would they do that?
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It is my opinion that the NCAA has lost so much power because of their broad legal exposure… that they are attempting to separate their pursuit on prosecuting infractions to a “third party” which is nothing more than a bunch of legal eagles.
They are hoping for two advantages with this:
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Reduce their legal exposure (also meaning financial exposure).
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Regain aggressive tactics for discovery and prosecution.
This is basically guaranteed to end up one day in front of the Supreme Court. The idea that an entity can contract out “hit squads” in this fashion and then not think they will be held accountable is just one more example of how our way of life is being threatened by large-scale organizations.
Large corporations have been using these tactics for decades. Hiring unscrupulous collections agency is an example that pops up in my head. The real key here is if the hiring entity can be pursued for damages.
The NCAA took a page out of the big corp playbook.
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Self to NCAA: drop dead https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/29329604/kansas-basketball-coach-bill-self-considering-legal-action-vs-ncaa-attorney-says
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Bill basically threatening discovery, imo.
They have everything on him at this point.
This would be Bills opportunity to get leverage and force testimony.
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I’ve been saying this for months now, if Adidas is ultimately deemed a booster by the IARP, Self and Kansas are going full scorched earth on the NCAA in court and torch the NCAA system through the courtroom and empty the NCAA’s closet of all its skeletons.
The KU/NC State/Louisville cases have the potential to be complete game changers in the NCAA and lead to creation of a new governing body created by university presidents and athletic directors.
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basically like they were saying here in Topeka , the local sports daily talk show. - -Basically the jest of this is that KU is admitting guilt, everyone pretty well knows there were things that were violations But like they said that Coach 's stance is they are trying to end his long outstanding career and that this kind thing goes on just about anywhere and feel like they are trying to come down on Self harder.
Also stating just another statement that KU is NOT going down like a bunch of marsh mellows they are going to make the NCAA look so bad out of this. Also saying that this case with KU could very easily go down as the biggest case ever, even more so then the N Carolina scenario.
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It’s a move of complete desperation. Discovery goes both ways and as I have did before, Self, Townsend, et. al., don’t want to be under oath.
While @Texas-Hawk-10 is late to the party on the scorched earth (I pointed this out a while back) … I was the one that said just after Self’s infamous denial (lies) in October of 2018. That we should make it clear before the NCAA made findings that we’d go scorched earth. Now? Good luck. The NCAA can’t give in at this stage.
I also said after Self’s infamous denials (lies), the risk was very high that this ends Self’s tenure at KU. Largely scoffed at by most everyone here. Folks guaranteeing that was wrong.
So now when Self references doing what everyone else did - cheating - makes you really wonder about those denials (lies). As I have said repeatedly, if you say everyone else does it, you are admitting the impropriety.
Why would the NCAA, an entity run by and supported by the colleges, be scared of this silly and baseless lawsuit threat?
Absolute desperation with the walls closing in. Good grief, look at OSU’s penalties. Those are much worse than the consensus “slap on the wrist” we routinely heard here.
The hammer is coming.
I’m sorry, but I have called this from the start. I’ve listened to folks attack, call names, make accusations, and say utterly senseless things related to this issue in response.
Yet many folks here have persisted with the opinion to attack the NCAA, to sue, all this complete baloney. Look where we are now.
There was one posting flurry where challenging Self’s honesty, when we all know he’s a liar, led to outrageous attacks and name calling from many here. And utterly stupid analogies to speeding. Just the worst of this site.
Now look at your hero. He’s pathetic.
This is horrible. Self has put us here.
We now see our coach do what no other coach has really done. Desperate and again, embarrassing.
Bill Self, the liar, needs to resign. Now. Please. It’s time. He is causing further damage to the program and university. A complete embarrassment.
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@HighEliteMajor said in NOA response from KU discussion:
It’s a move of complete desperation. Discovery goes both ways and as I have did before, Self, Townsend, et. al., don’t want to be under oath.
While @Texas-Hawk-10 is late to the party on the scorched earth (I pointed this out a while back) … I was the one that said just after Self’s infamous denial (lies) in October of 2018. That we should make it clear before the NCAA made findings that we’d go scorched earth. Now? Good luck. The NCAA can’t give in at this stage.
I also said after Self’s infamous denials (lies), the risk was very high that this ends Self’s tenure at KU. Largely scoffed at by most everyone here. Folks guaranteeing that was wrong.
So now when Self references doing what everyone else did - cheating - makes you really wonder about those denials (lies). As I have said repeatedly, if you say everyone else does it, you are admitting the impropriety.
Why would the NCAA, an entity run by and supported by the colleges, be scared of this silly and baseless lawsuit threat?
Absolute desperation with the walls closing in. Good grief, look at OSU’s penalties. Those are much worse than the consensus “slap on the wrist” we routinely heard here.
The hammer is coming.
I’m sorry, but I have called this from the start. I’ve listened to folks attack, call names, make accusations, and say utterly senseless things related to this issue in response.
Yet many folks here have persisted with the opinion to attack the NCAA, to sue, all this complete baloney. Look where we are now.
There was one posting flurry where challenging Self’s honesty, when we all know he’s a liar, led to outrageous attacks and name calling from many here. And utterly stupid analogies to speeding. Just the worst of this site.
Now look at your hero. He’s pathetic.
This is horrible. Self has put us here.
We now see our coach do what no other coach has really done. Desperate and again, embarrassing.
Bill Self, the liar, needs to resign. Now. Please. It’s time. He is causing further damage to the program and university. A complete embarrassment.
This IS NOT the end for Coach Self at KU, that’s not happening. Sure he will be suspended games more likely then not - -but the end ? - - Hardly. - -Everything I’ve been hearing is maybe 20 % of the season amounts to about 10 games Townsend more likely then Self , quite possible 1 yr ban from the NCAA is going to be about the jest of it all or a loss of Scholi - -again Self will continue to be here , this isn’t going to be the end - -some here may want that to happen But sorry to disappoint
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Hey if your a ku fan, don’t turn a blind eye to what the recruiting world is. Self is right to do this. the evidence on him is weak! even if we all know some shady things have happened. Can we please not act like every power program does this. We know how much money coach k gave Zion. We know duke and Uk have been 1-2 in the recruiting rankings every year for the past 6 years and ku has been 3-19 ranked. Let’s be honest that they probably do so much more shady stuff then ku. Let’s also not think about how the NCAA has turned a blind eye to Nike and under armor. This stuff happens in football too.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I tend to agree. The NCAA bigtime overreached this time. Could be the beginning of the end for them.
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@HighEliteMajor said in NOA response from KU discussion:
It’s a move of complete desperation. Discovery goes both ways and as I have did before, Self, Townsend, et. al., don’t want to be under oath.
While @Texas-Hawk-10 is late to the party on the scorched earth (I pointed this out a while back) … I was the one that said just after Self’s infamous denial (lies) in October of 2018. That we should make it clear before the NCAA made findings that we’d go scorched earth. Now? Good luck. The NCAA can’t give in at this stage.
I also said after Self’s infamous denials (lies), the risk was very high that this ends Self’s tenure at KU. Largely scoffed at by most everyone here. Folks guaranteeing that was wrong.
So now when Self references doing what everyone else did - cheating - makes you really wonder about those denials (lies). As I have said repeatedly, if you say everyone else does it, you are admitting the impropriety.
Why would the NCAA, an entity run by and supported by the colleges, be scared of this silly and baseless lawsuit threat?
Absolute desperation with the walls closing in. Good grief, look at OSU’s penalties. Those are much worse than the consensus “slap on the wrist” we routinely heard here.
The hammer is coming.
I’m sorry, but I have called this from the start. I’ve listened to folks attack, call names, make accusations, and say utterly senseless things related to this issue in response.
Yet many folks here have persisted with the opinion to attack the NCAA, to sue, all this complete baloney. Look where we are now.
There was one posting flurry where challenging Self’s honesty, when we all know he’s a liar, led to outrageous attacks and name calling from many here. And utterly stupid analogies to speeding. Just the worst of this site.
Now look at your hero. He’s pathetic.
This is horrible. Self has put us here.
We now see our coach do what no other coach has really done. Desperate and again, embarrassing.
Bill Self, the liar, needs to resign. Now. Please. It’s time. He is causing further damage to the program and university. A complete embarrassment.
You’ve been right about a lot of stuff over the years, i certainly hope this is not one of them. In this day and age where we live in the United States of Apology i’m glad Self is not bending over and apologizing to the NCAA bully. He is standing up to them and is being a fighter. I like that. Could this decision create a worse result in the end? Yep. But i’m ok with that. The NCAA is selectively enforcing its rules and giving out punishments dis-proportionally to programs based on bias with KU being its “make an example” target. While they have the power to do so, its not right. I’d rather go down as a fighter vs laying down just to be the NCAA’s trophy mounted on the wall above their fireplace.
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Something smells rotten in Denmark
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What’s pathetic, HEM, is your constant need to be right, be right first, and claim moral superiority. “While @Texas-Hawk-10 is late to the party on the scorched earth (I pointed this out a while back)” - get over yourself, man.
Bill Self is not admitting to cheating. He is admitting that he talks to shoeco reps and asks for help. He is not admitting to asking shoeco reps to pay players to come to Kansas, and there is still no evidence that anyone on the staff has done so. What he is claiming is that everyone works with shoeco reps as such and that it has never been impermissible before. Bill Self is not stupid, and his lawyers would not advise him to admit to committing violations and then sue the NCAA for defamation.
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@RockkChalkk I love your post. My view early was simply to take a much different approach to the allegations. Honesty, contrition, transparency, etc. That did not mean you couldn’t engage in a good faith disagreement on the rules interpretation. And of course, there is no guarantee that my approach would have rendered a better result.
“In this day and age where we live in the United States of Apology i’m glad Self is not bending over and apologizing to the NCAA bully. He is standing up to them and is being a fighter. I like that.” As @jaybate-1-0 used to say, “PHOF.” Man, I miss that guy.
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@jtmoney I agree. It is pathetic to point out being right. I’ve trended that way too much. But I will tell you why – go look at the absolute hateful responses and attacks when I’ve expressed opinions on this topic. I’m telling you, not proudly, that is why I’m jamming it back in folks’ faces a bit. Again, not the best look.
Bill Self was stupid to make those comments in October 2018 - infamously, “When recruiting prospective student athletes, my staff and I have not and do not offer improper inducements to them or their families to influence their college decisions nor are we aware of any third-party involvement to do so.” Stupidity. I know it’s fashionable to caste Self as some genius. Basketball wise, yes. This was not the moment he showed brilliance.
Lawyers make mistakes and misjudgments. If he relied on lawyers, this was a poor advice.
“We know that shoe companies are highly involved with basketball recruiting. It’s common place in the sport. We associate with the shoe companies and communicate, but we make no mistake, we recruit our athletes. The shoe companies obviously have a private and distinct interest in where a player may attend school. Those interests may align with our interests. But that doesn’t mean that we solicit them to engage in activities contrary to the NCAA rules. We don’t do that. The shoe companies are independent entities that have a specific business interest. My coaches and staff have never provided illegal benefits to players. We are committed to working the NCAA related to the involvement of shoe companies, the issues that the NCAA has raised regarding our program, and to address those same issues across the breadth of college basketball. We understand the NCAA’s concerns and look forward to addressing them moving forward.”
I just threw that together in a few minutes. I posted something similar just after Self’s statement. I’m a little partial to my approach …
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Hahaha. @HighEliteMajor , you are certainly modest, I’ll give you that. But, I do not see the contradiction. Bill Self said "nor are we aware of any third-party involvement to do so.” There has been nothing to come out to contradict that claim.
Mike Brey recently told The Athletic, “I never thought of it like that. If there’s money changing hands, then yeah, they’re a booster, but I don’t think any of us look at the support we get from sneaker companies and think of that as violations. They’re giving us information to help close the deal (with recruits). Every one of us works the shoe company angle to help us get players,” Brey says. “I speak to those guys as much as I would speak to parents. No question if there was an Under Armour event somewhere, I’d get a call from someone at Under Armour saying, ‘Hey Mike, did you see this 15-year-old kid in Dallas? He’s in our program, you gotta get on him.’ I’m not saying they’d cheat to get him, but damn right they’re helping, absolutely.”
Bill Self is claiming that the NCAA never said that you couldn’t talk to shoeco reps about recruits, that every other coach does it, the NCAA knows they do it, and they have never said that’s impermissible. There is no evidence that he was aware that the shoeco companies were influencing recruits with impermissible benefits. You could say, “Bill Self is not dumb, he knew what was going on” but there is no evidence that he was aware or any evidence that he was encouraging the shoeco reps to take those actions. Now, there is nothing on tape where Bill Self or Kurtis Townsend said, “We need to do whatever it takes to get this guy within the framework of NCAA rules,” and that’s the only thing that I could see as shaky as far as a lack of institutional control. We don’t know if they have had those conversations or what their relationship is like. But when Kurtis Townsend is on tape saying that, we don’t know that he means “we need to do whatever it takes (to get Zion), including offering impermissible benefits” or if he means “we need to do everything we can under the letter of the law.” And considering that Zion went elsewhere, it seems safe to assume that KU didn’t pursue illegal benefits. I’m sure they could have found someone with deep, deep pockets to bring Zion to KU for a season, or at least match Addidas’s financial offering.
In this case, Addidas was acting out of it’s own best interest, and I wouldn’t doubt that other shoeco reps are as well. But there is no evidence that Bill Self and TJ Gassnola had implicitly aligned their business interests together through impermissible benefits." You could assume or imply that they did, but there is NO evidence.
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Shoecos have completely infected and run through all of college sports. They provide funding at the universities, in the high schools, in AAU, they organize/fund events, they promote college sports in all areas… essentially, they are college sports as much as the universities have their role. All ADs are open for shoecos. I’m sure that access is probably covered in their contracts.
Without true evidence of Kansas and Adidas conspiring together in recruiting… this case is over. That has to be substantial and far more than a “we cool” comment. And it was a bigger blunder for the NCAA to force KU’s hand into admitting the booster malarky to clear Silvio. That showed how desperate the NCAA was. And who is to say what other threats were issued when that went down. Does anyone in here really think KU made that move just to clear Silvio… especially if that would risk charges later that Adidas would be understood as a booster? You think KU just waltzed into that deal without legal counsel? ha… laughable.
And we are not “scorching earth.” Scorched earth would mean we would expose all sorts of possible violations from other schools at this same level. We have no intention of going after pretty much the entire field of D1 schools. Self has privy to info on at least half the D1 institutions out there. That’s how recruiting works. It doesn’t favor Kansas to scorch the earth and attack half of D1… and we don’t need to.
This is a game of chess… and so far… it looks like Kansas has been thinking many moves ahead. Definitely more than the NCAA. Their moves seem spontaneous, emotional, and defensive. I still can’t believe their desperation in making KU state Adidas as a booster in order to liberate Silvio. That further builds upon our victim status.
We have been victimized by this entire system. In order to compete at this high level, and for everyone to keep their employment, we are forced to work in this entire environment and that environment includes possible unscrupulous individuals who work for shoecos. And then we are under attack from the NCAA for participating in an environment they are in charge of policing and setting standards. We are just here to play basketball and be competitive. We are accused of violations based on laws that don’t exist (shoecos are boosters). And then when it isn’t going well for the governing body, they force us to claim shoecos are boosters in order to free a young player so he can pursue his interests after he was punished far too heavy… essentially turning him into a bargaining chip.
Self realizes our status as victim, and he’s going to fight back! Bravo!
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@drgnslayr Your assumptions about the logic behind a scorched earth plan are faulty. Nobody is advocating going scorched earth on the NCAA as a first line of defense in this matter. It is a last line of defense to guard against the NCAA’s changing enforcement and unequal application of an NCAA bylaw in regards to the definition of a booster.
Here is the specific bylaws in question which is the NCAA’s definition of a representative of athletic interest more commonly known as a booster.
13.02.15 A “representative of the institution’s athletics interests” is an individual, independent agency, corporate entity (e.g., apparel or equipment manufacturer) or other organization who is known (or who should have been known) by a member of the institution’s executive or athletics administration to:
a) Have participated in or to be a member of an agency or organization promoting the institution’s intercollegiate athletics program;
(b) Have made financial contributions to the athletics department or to an athletics booster organization of that institution;
Be assisting or to have been requested (by the athletics department staff) to assist in the recruitment of prospective studentathletes;(d) Be assisting or to have assisted in providing benefits to enrolled student-athletes or their family members; or
(e) Have been involved otherwise in promoting the institution’s athletics program.
If former NABC president and current Notre Dame coach Mike Brey is to be believed, every school is in communication with a representative of a shoe sponsor to get information on recruits and to help their school with recruiting. We know TJ Gassnola was helping coaches at multiple schools, not just Kansas to make contact with recruits.
Self’s statements this week indicate he’s ready to torch the system if the ruling goes against Kansas and I do believe Self is ready to martyr himself to bring about change in the NCAA and he won’t be alone on that fight. All Adidas schools will have KU’s back if Adidas is ruled a booster.
What really needs to happen is the NCAA needs to create a separate set of bylaws in regards to corporate sponsors of athletic programs and what they can or cannot do. Right now, by literal interpretation of this bylaw, and company that advertise in the home venue of an NCAA program would be considered a booster. Is Delta Dental really a booster of Kansas Athletics? Is Russell Stover a booster of Kansas Athletics? Is Pepsi a Kansas Athletics booster? These are all companies that have corporate sponsorship deals with Kansas Athletics and advertise inside Allen Fieldhouse so based on how the NCAA is portraying Adidas, do they consider those companies boosters of Kansas Athletics as well?
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Excellent posts!
The NCAA bootstraps too much into its definitions. A booster is anyone who helps recruit someone, known or should be known to the school to be doing so. Then there is a requirement for supervision and control of boosters.
I would love to see how KU can supervise everybody around the country that has contact with recruits.
The ultimate resolution of this, if it goes to court, will have to be an application of the test for legal agency, which requires knowledge and some degree of control. There may be situations where “should have known” comes into play, plus “ratification” and “duty to inquire.”
But they will have a hard time showing agency where the agent is free to recruit any athlete he wishes to any school he wishes. That type of non-exclusive agency makes the duty to supervise much more difficult to prove.
It can get very convoluted. I had cases in federal appellate court (actually argued in front of Judge Bork, and yes he is smart but can be a condescending jerk!) where the arguments got so involved on whether someone was an agent that I was in the Library of Congress reading 1840’s cases involving drivers of milk wagons in Louisiana trying to discern how courts weigh what factors govern.
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Don’t forget the Larry Brown part too. That is 1.A of this whole booster issue
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This post is deleted!
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I think we basically agree on things.
I think the NCAA will have to show a real effort where Kansas officials and Adidas conspired to bring players to Kansas. I haven’t heard of anything coming close to making such a violation charge valid.
I do believe Self will scorch the NCAA. But I doubt Self will scorch Duke… and believe me, he could scorch Duke over Zion. He could make that investigation and allegation stick. He could do the same by going after other schools. That isn’t Self’s style, to hurt others, especially negatively impacting athletes. That’s how I defined “scorched earth.”
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@drgnslayr said in NOA response from KU discussion:
I think we basically agree on things.
I think the NCAA will have to show a real effort where Kansas officials and Adidas conspired to bring players to Kansas. I haven’t heard of anything coming close to making such a violation charge valid.
I do believe Self will scorch the NCAA. But I doubt Self will scorch Duke… and believe me, he could scorch Duke over Zion. He could make that investigation and allegation stick. He could do the same by going after other schools. That isn’t Self’s style, to hurt others, especially negatively impacting athletes. That’s how I defined “scorched earth.”
Hasn’t the NCAA pretty much removed themselves from the KU situation for the present time ? - -I think it will now have to be that independent firm will have to show that effort between KU officials and Adidas won’t it ? Yes true when it comes to it , I think it will be the NCAA infractions that hand down the penalty when the dust clears - or am I just totally in left field on this ? – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@drgnslayr said in NOA response from KU discussion:
I think we basically agree on things.
I think the NCAA will have to show a real effort where Kansas officials and Adidas conspired to bring players to Kansas. I haven’t heard of anything coming close to making such a violation charge valid.
I do believe Self will scorch the NCAA. But I doubt Self will scorch Duke… and believe me, he could scorch Duke over Zion. He could make that investigation and allegation stick. He could do the same by going after other schools. That isn’t Self’s style, to hurt others, especially negatively impacting athletes. That’s how I defined “scorched earth.”
Scorched earth to me means there will be collateral damage along the way. While Self and Kansas may not directly go after Duke, texts implying what it would take for KU to land Zion Williamson did get leaked along with the information his former agency made public about his parents living situation and vehicle. The Zion situation is relevant because of the similarities to what happened with Billy Preston’s recruitment is how you establish relevance to be able to dig deeper into Zion’s recruitment and if Duke becomes collateral damage as a result, I don’t think fellow ACC teams Louisville and NC State are going to be too upset about that since they’re facing a lot of the same accusations as KU in regards to their relationship with TJ Gassnola and Adidas.
I would imagine if KU went to trial, more of their focus would be on LSU, Oklahoma St., and Arizona and why they didn’t get charged with the same booster violation stuff the Adidas schools did since those schools did have collaborations with an apparel supplier rep to steer recruits their way as well.
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If you are fighting for your lively hood, who knows?
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I agree
Yes. I don’t know all the details of how this will work but I haven’t been keeping up like many in here.
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@BShark This is how the NCAA pretends its an impartial decision?
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@approxinfinity said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@BShark This is how the NCAA pretends its an impartial decision?
The IARP is not operated by the NCAA. If they show favoritism towards the NCAA in their rulings, schools won’t accept their cases going that route which negates the purpose of its creation.
