Marcus Morris
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@dylans It’s quite a dilemma (crap, i’m getting old - i had to look up how to spell dilemma…) that we have. So many great players, but we need to respect the rafters and only put in the best of the best.
It’s so much easier at K-State. If you score 1,000 points (total career, including Jr High and High School), or if you’ve ever been a judge in a Livestock competition or attended a rodeo - you are rafter bound.
They do have one banner up there that I wish we could remove -
“Remember that time we beat KU?” Oh well, that’s their National Championship.
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Guys please understand the real criteria…
Whoever Bill wants in the rafters gets up there.
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@BShark It should be bigger than that. As @nuleafjhawk points out, we aren’t KSU.
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I get where you guys are coming from but…take it up with Bill and/or the AD?
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@BShark Sorry if you think this (my initial post) is directed at you. I didn’t even consider you when posting. My apologies.
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No need to get that way…
I just don’t see this as something to get upset about. It’s such a small thing.
Wiggins might get up there at some point, that will be a fun day.
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@BShark Yeah, Wiggins. And Josh Jackson. Maybe Josh Selby. They are all players who made KU better with their blood, sweat and tears.
Maybe we could have a “One and Done - No Real Contribution” section of the rafters.
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@nuleafjhawk Selby has no shot, I would say Josh close to no shot. Wiggins I could see legitimately happening for recruiting purposes.
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@BShark said in Marcus Morris:
I get where you guys are coming from but…take it up with Bill and/or the AD?
I’m not THAT upset about it. And I get that it’s whoever Bill wants.
I just think it’s stupid. It will take away from everyone past, present and future that’s going up there. If that is what Bill and Co. want that’s fine. But let’s be real about it at least. Marcus doesn’t deserve it and if he didn’t have the long NBA career he’s had I doubt he’d be going up there.
The one thing I’ll give Marcus credit, is that if he’d have come back for his senior season it’s very likely we win it all and he walks out of Lawrence with 2000 career points and a NC. And he’d probably have been a 1st team AA that next season.
I can’t even imagine Senior versions of the twins playing next to Jr. T-Rob and Withey. Replace Kevin Young and Justin Wesley in 2012 and tell me we don’t win a NC.
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@BShark I was being facetious. You and I should be in the rafters before any of them. We’re much bigger supporters of KU. In fact, all of us on here are great athletic supporters.
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@nuleafjhawk I know but I still think Wiggins might get up there, seriously.
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@Kcmatt7 said in Marcus Morris:
@BShark said in Marcus Morris:
I get where you guys are coming from but…take it up with Bill and/or the AD?
I’m not THAT upset about it. And I get that it’s whoever Bill wants.
I just think it’s stupid. It will take away from everyone past, present and future that’s going up there. If that is what Bill and Co. want that’s fine. But let’s be real about it at least. Marcus doesn’t deserve it and if he didn’t have the long NBA career he’s had I doubt he’d be going up there.
The one thing I’ll give Marcus credit, is that if he’d have come back for his senior season it’s very likely we win it all and he walks out of Lawrence with 2000 career points and a NC. And he’d probably have been a 1st team AA that next season.
I can’t even imagine Senior versions of the twins playing next to Jr. T-Rob and Withey. Replace Kevin Young and Justin Wesley in 2012 and tell me we don’t win a NC.
Fair points.
There is no doubt that part of this has to do with his long NBA career.
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If Wiggins goes up there, I’ll email the AD.
11 loss season, 2nd round exit.
He was 1st team All-Overhyped though. So you know there’s that.
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Wiggins I genuinely do not want to see up there. I think Marcus is at least defensible.
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@Kcmatt7 I’m ready to go off on my annual OAD rant, but I’ll try not to.
All I can say is give me a Christian Braun (even though he doesn’t pronounce his name correctly) ANYDAY over a Wiggins type fellow.
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@nuleafjhawk said in Marcus Morris:
@Kcmatt7 I’m ready to go off on my annual OAD rant, but I’ll try not to.
All I can say is give me a Christian Braun (even though he doesn’t pronounce his name correctly) ANYDAY over a Wiggins type fellow.
Next year will be VERY interesting. We lose our two 5* (-ish in Doke’s case, either way clearly our best big) players and will only have one 5*, a FR guard.
The starting line-up will have a player that was unranked before KU came calling (Garrett), a couple sub 100 3* in Braun and Agbaji (both of whom have struggled this year) and a C that would have been a low 4* in most classes (Dave).
The bench will feature a JUCO and some mid-range 4* in their second year. One coming off an injury.
Not saying it will go bad, not at all. But um, just interesting and something to keep in the back of our minds.
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@dylans I don’t think anyone is arguing that it hasn’t been watered down.
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Does Marcus not deserve it as much as Raef Lafrentz? There are several other retired jerseys around his level imo.
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Bad comp - Raef LaFrentz joined Tim Duncan and Shaquille O’Neal as the only players in the 1990s to earn first team AP All-America honors twice. 2nd all time for Kansas in points and rebounds to one Danny Manning. It shouldn’t be about projections. It should be about accomplishments.
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@BShark Raef Lafrentz: A two-time consensus first team All-American (1997, 1998) … Two-time Big 12 Player of the Year (1997 and 1998) … A finalist for the 1997 and 1998 Wooden and Naismith awards … One of three players in KU history to score 2,000 points … Ranks second in Kansas history for career rebounds (1,186) … A hand injury that forced him to sit out nine games in 1997-98 prevented him from being KU’s all-time leading rebounder … Ranks eighth in KU history for career blocked shots (138) … Ranks among the top 10 in KU history for career field goals, attempts, free throws, attempts and field goal percentage …
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@dylans - “It’s not about projections. It should be about what you did.”
A not oft quoted song lyric from Frank Zappa -
*You ain’t what you’re not
So see what you got
You are what you is
An’ that’s all it is*
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I detect the smell of a big NBA contract funding a large donation to the Dept of Ath.
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Are there others in the rafters that don’t shall we say have no brainer credentials?
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i wonder how kieff feels about this. can’t do this one together.
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@BShark said in Marcus Morris:
@nuleafjhawk Selby has no shot, I would say Josh close to no shot. Wiggins I could see legitimately happening for recruiting purposes.
Jackson would get up there before Wiggins does. Jackson was better in every area than Wiggins at KU.
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Wiggs set the frosh scoring record, didn’t get in trouble w/the law.
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I don’t think either of the Morris twins belong up there. Good players, but didn’t have quite enough tournament or individual success to warrant a place in the rafters. Mason, Graham, Thomas Robinson. If this season’s team wins a championship, I think there’s an argument for Doke and/or Dotson. Maybe Marcus Garrett as well depending on this season as well as next season.
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I would be really disappointed if Wiggs and especially Jo made the rafters. Should ECU retire Mike Trout’s jersey because he signed there before getting drafted? I don’t care about professional accomplishments. Getting your jersey in the rafters should be about what you did at Kansas, not the Golden Phoenix State TimberSuperKnicks
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There have been 30 players so far to have their jersey’s retired by KU. The current known criteria is National POY, Final Four MOP, 4x All-American, Consensus 1st team All-American, 2x 1st team All-American, and Academic All-American of the Year. Also a direct quote from Bill Self on the issue, “There is really not a criteria other than the greatest players that play here deserve to be considered for that.”
It should also be noted that prior to 1929, there is only the Helms Foundation All-American team and also that Wooden Award Finalists are also considered 1st team All-Americans by the Wooden Award foundation which is how Brandon Rush meets the criteria.
Drew Gooden (1999-2002): NPOY (2002) and Consensus 1st team All-American (2002)
Nick Collison (1999-2003): NPOY (2003) and Consensus 1st team All-American (2003)
Sherron Collins (2006-2010): Consensus 1st team All-American (2010)
Fred Pralle (1935-1938): Consensus All-American (1938) and 2x All-American (1937, 38)
Howard Engleman (1938-1941): Consensus 1st team All-American (1941)
Tusten Ackerman (1922-1925): 2x All-American (1924, 1925)
Charlie T. Black (1921-1924): NPOY (1924) and 2x All-American (1923, 1924)
Charles B. Black (1941-1943; 1945-1947): 2x Consensus 1st team All-American (1943, 1946)
Kirk Hinrich (1999-2003)
Jacque Vaughn (1993-1997): Academic All-American of the Year (1997)
Paul Endacott (1920-1923): NPOY (1923) and 2x All-American (1922, 1923)
Wilt Chamberlain (1955-1958): Final Four MOP (1957) and 2x Consensus 1st team All-American (1957, 1958)
Walt Wesley (1963-1966)
Darnell Valentine (1977-1981)
Ray Evans (1942-1944; 1945-1948): 2x 1st Team All-American (1942, 1943), also only player to have jersey retired in both basketball and football at KU
JoJo White (1965-1969)
Bud Stallworth (1969-1972)
Mario Chalmers (2005-2008): Final Four MOP (2008)
Clyde Lovellette (1949-1952): Final Four MOP (1952), 2x Consensus 1st Team All-American (1951, 1952)
B.H. Born (1951-1954): Final Four MOP (1953)
Wayne Simien (2001-2005): Consensus 1st team All-American (2005)
Danny Manning (1984-1988): Final Four MOP (1988), NPOY (1988), 2x Consensus 1st team All-American (1987, 1988)
Brandon Rush (2005-2008): 2x 1st team All-American (2007, 2008)
Gale Gorden (1924-1927): 1st team All-American (1926)
Bill Bridges (1958-1961)
Paul Pierce (1995-1998): Consensus 1st team All-American (1998)
Al Peterson (1924-1927): Consensus All-American (1926)
Dave Robisch (1968-1971)
Raef LaFrentz (1994-1998): 2x Consensus 1st team All-American (1997, 1998)
Cole Aldrich (2007-2010) Academic All-American of the Year (2010)
Out of the 30 players to have their jersey’s retired, 23 meet one of the stated benchmark criteria. That leaves 7 who are in the rafters because Self and others deemed them among the greatest to ever play at KU. Marcus Morris was the B12 POY and consensus 2nd team All-American in 2011. Based solely on measurable merits such as All-American honors and Big 8/12 POY awards, Marcus arguably has a stronger case than Kirk Hinrich, Walt Wesley, Darnell Valentine, and Bill Bridges. None of those players were B8/12 POY (although the B8 didn’t give out a POY from 1960-1967 which hurt Bill Bridges and Walt Wesley who probably would’ve won that award in 1961 and 1966 respectively).
Marcus will have one of the weaker resumes of the players in the rafters, but I would probably say that either Kirk Hinrich or Darnell Valentine have the weakest resumes of all the players that have received the honor.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Marcus was a big nothing historically. I’d take Kirk’s jersey based on 4 years + what should have been a national championship. Made his one free throw. Nick Collison 3-10 when it counted.
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@DanR But…Kirk passed up his chance at the end. Sigh…
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I actually won’t be surprised if the retire Wiggins and or Embiids jersey, and I think the main reason they would do it is for recruiting purposes.
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@DanR said in Marcus Morris:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Marcus was a big nothing historically. I’d take Kirk’s jersey based on 4 years + what should have been a national championship. Made his one free throw. Nick Collison 3-10 when it counted.
Ya. Two Final Fours and a National Championship game. 4-year player, 3rd-team All American.
Marcus was Sweet Sixteen, Round of 32, and Elite Eight. 2nd-team All American and B12 POY.
I’d take Kirk’s as well, but I admit that I’m biased.
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@mayjay said in Marcus Morris:
@DanR But…Kirk passed up his chance at the end. Sigh…
seriously? passed up a 30 footer to a feed wide open Lee or the desperation shot with 1.5 left? Wasn’t his best, but Kirk didn’t blow that game.
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To clarify, I don’t think Kirk is an outlier in the rafter jersey race. I also don’t think Marcus is remotely in the same league as any of the ones hanging currently.
If Self wants to water it down, whatever.
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Embiid and Morris got into a little shoving match tonight. Video will show up next to box. https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401161444
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@KirkIsMyHinrich said in Marcus Morris:
@DanR said in Marcus Morris:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Marcus was a big nothing historically. I’d take Kirk’s jersey based on 4 years + what should have been a national championship. Made his one free throw. Nick Collison 3-10 when it counted.
Ya. Two Final Fours and a National Championship game. 4-year player, 3rd-team All American.
Marcus was Sweet Sixteen, Round of 32, and Elite Eight. 2nd-team All American and B12 POY.
I’d take Kirk’s as well, but I admit that I’m biased.
It’s not about team success though when it comes to having a jersey hung. It’s about individual success and accolades because quite frankly, Aaron Miles has a better resume than Kirk Hinrich does and Miles isn’t up there and we don’t hear his name mentioned much about it and he is still KU’s all time assists leader.
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@DanR said in Marcus Morris:
To clarify, I don’t think Kirk is an outlier in the rafter jersey race. I also don’t think Marcus is remotely in the same league as any of the ones hanging currently.
If Self wants to water it down, whatever.
Difference being that Marcus Morris has accolades other players do not have that are up there such as conference player of the year which several players never achieved that are up there. I think you’re letting personal bias against Morris get in the way here. If you’re bringing should’ve won a national title into the argument, KU was the best team in the country in both 2010 and 2011 and should’ve won each of those titles. This isn’t a knock on Hinrich, but can anyone realistically argue that he was ever KU’s best player while he was here?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Marcus Morris:
@KirkIsMyHinrich said in Marcus Morris:
@DanR said in Marcus Morris:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Marcus was a big nothing historically. I’d take Kirk’s jersey based on 4 years + what should have been a national championship. Made his one free throw. Nick Collison 3-10 when it counted.
Ya. Two Final Fours and a National Championship game. 4-year player, 3rd-team All American.
Marcus was Sweet Sixteen, Round of 32, and Elite Eight. 2nd-team All American and B12 POY.
I’d take Kirk’s as well, but I admit that I’m biased.
It’s not about team success though when it comes to having a jersey hung. It’s about individual success and accolades because quite frankly, Aaron Miles has a better resume than Kirk Hinrich does and Miles isn’t up there and we don’t hear his name mentioned much about it and he is still KU’s all time assists leader.
Kirk Hinrich: 12.4 points, 3.8 rebounds, 4.7 assists, 49.3/43.0/77.6, 141 games, 20.0 win shares
Aaron Miles: 8.6 points, 3.3 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 41.5/34.2/75.5, 138 games, 13.4 win shares
How does he have a better resume?
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I think the thing that really puts Kirk over the top is the 2003 NCAA Midwest Region’s Most Outstanding Player award.
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Miles is right in there… Hell, I think I could make a case for Langford. Both shouldn’t be overlooked if they take it down a notch. From a sportsmanship perspective, the Morri played with fire and occasionally got burned (ahem VCU).
Wasn’t Cole Aldrich an academic All-American? Also had a triple-double with blocks, if I’m not mistaken.
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@dylans I agree about Kirk and Aaron, it’s also should be noted that they played different positions on the floor. Aaron was great and I think he gets over shadowed by Vaughn, Russel Robinson, Graham and Mason. Aaron is one of the best pure PGs to play here, I’d be fine with his number in the rafters. I don’t think it should be all on what the team did but I’m just gonna be honest I feel like the guys that are up there are top 5 at their positions to the date they were hung. I personally don’t think Marcus is a top 5 PF in KUs history. Arguably top 10 but I would rank Collison, Manning, Gooden, Lovellette, Simien, LaFrentz and Thomas Robinson ahead of him just off the top of my head. If you are to going to retire his number, you could make a case for half or better of Self’s players here.
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A conference POY and consensus 2nd team All-American, a 2x 3rd team All-American, or a second team All-American. Two of these players have jerseys hanging in AFH already. Who has the strongest case and who has the weakest case?
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Conference accolades seem insignificant when talking about all time KU greats. Roy watered it down enough. I don’t like what Bill is doing here. Have a ring of honor or some thing along those lines to honor the Marcus Morris, Kenny Gregory, Tyshawn Taylor types seems more appropriate.
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@dylans said in Marcus Morris:
Conference accolades seem insignificant when talking about all time KU greats. Roy watered it down enough. I don’t like what Bill is doing here. Have a ring of honor or some thing along those lines to honor the Marcus Morris, Kenny Gregory, Tyshawn Taylor types seems more appropriate.
KU has had more 1st team All-Americans than conference POY’s. Only 12 different Kansas players have been named Big 8/12 POY on 16 different occasions (Robisch, Manning, and LaFrentz won multiple times). Considering KU’s history, that’s a big achievement to be on of those 12 men. 8 of those 12 are currently in the rafters. The other 3 besides Marcus will be up there one day (Robinson, Mason, and Graham).
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@DanR Who said he did? My sigh was wistful regret–I would just rather he had shot it since the block indicates Lee was not open after all. Not blowing the game. All the missed FTs did that.
And I absolutely would prefer his in the rafters over either Morii!
My favorite memories of those times are the fast breaks, with Roy’s boys flying down the court in about negative two seconds…
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Best shot in basketball - the corner three. Second best shot in basketball any other three. Third best shot in b-ball - freethrow. Fourth best shot - dunk. Blew the game on 2 of the 3 most efficient shots.
Lee’s three was pure; Warrick was a freak athlete and super long. No one else on the court could’ve altered that shot. Dammit now I’m pissed about Hakim Warrick’s amazing block again.
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I’m now reliving that nightmare block. How dare you!!!
