Marcus Morris
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Does Marcus not deserve it as much as Raef Lafrentz? There are several other retired jerseys around his level imo.
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Bad comp - Raef LaFrentz joined Tim Duncan and Shaquille O’Neal as the only players in the 1990s to earn first team AP All-America honors twice. 2nd all time for Kansas in points and rebounds to one Danny Manning. It shouldn’t be about projections. It should be about accomplishments.
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@BShark Raef Lafrentz: A two-time consensus first team All-American (1997, 1998) … Two-time Big 12 Player of the Year (1997 and 1998) … A finalist for the 1997 and 1998 Wooden and Naismith awards … One of three players in KU history to score 2,000 points … Ranks second in Kansas history for career rebounds (1,186) … A hand injury that forced him to sit out nine games in 1997-98 prevented him from being KU’s all-time leading rebounder … Ranks eighth in KU history for career blocked shots (138) … Ranks among the top 10 in KU history for career field goals, attempts, free throws, attempts and field goal percentage …
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@dylans - “It’s not about projections. It should be about what you did.”
A not oft quoted song lyric from Frank Zappa -
*You ain’t what you’re not
So see what you got
You are what you is
An’ that’s all it is*
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I detect the smell of a big NBA contract funding a large donation to the Dept of Ath.
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Are there others in the rafters that don’t shall we say have no brainer credentials?
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i wonder how kieff feels about this. can’t do this one together.
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@BShark said in Marcus Morris:
@nuleafjhawk Selby has no shot, I would say Josh close to no shot. Wiggins I could see legitimately happening for recruiting purposes.
Jackson would get up there before Wiggins does. Jackson was better in every area than Wiggins at KU.
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Wiggs set the frosh scoring record, didn’t get in trouble w/the law.
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I don’t think either of the Morris twins belong up there. Good players, but didn’t have quite enough tournament or individual success to warrant a place in the rafters. Mason, Graham, Thomas Robinson. If this season’s team wins a championship, I think there’s an argument for Doke and/or Dotson. Maybe Marcus Garrett as well depending on this season as well as next season.
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I would be really disappointed if Wiggs and especially Jo made the rafters. Should ECU retire Mike Trout’s jersey because he signed there before getting drafted? I don’t care about professional accomplishments. Getting your jersey in the rafters should be about what you did at Kansas, not the Golden Phoenix State TimberSuperKnicks
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There have been 30 players so far to have their jersey’s retired by KU. The current known criteria is National POY, Final Four MOP, 4x All-American, Consensus 1st team All-American, 2x 1st team All-American, and Academic All-American of the Year. Also a direct quote from Bill Self on the issue, “There is really not a criteria other than the greatest players that play here deserve to be considered for that.”
It should also be noted that prior to 1929, there is only the Helms Foundation All-American team and also that Wooden Award Finalists are also considered 1st team All-Americans by the Wooden Award foundation which is how Brandon Rush meets the criteria.
Drew Gooden (1999-2002): NPOY (2002) and Consensus 1st team All-American (2002)
Nick Collison (1999-2003): NPOY (2003) and Consensus 1st team All-American (2003)
Sherron Collins (2006-2010): Consensus 1st team All-American (2010)
Fred Pralle (1935-1938): Consensus All-American (1938) and 2x All-American (1937, 38)
Howard Engleman (1938-1941): Consensus 1st team All-American (1941)
Tusten Ackerman (1922-1925): 2x All-American (1924, 1925)
Charlie T. Black (1921-1924): NPOY (1924) and 2x All-American (1923, 1924)
Charles B. Black (1941-1943; 1945-1947): 2x Consensus 1st team All-American (1943, 1946)
Kirk Hinrich (1999-2003)
Jacque Vaughn (1993-1997): Academic All-American of the Year (1997)
Paul Endacott (1920-1923): NPOY (1923) and 2x All-American (1922, 1923)
Wilt Chamberlain (1955-1958): Final Four MOP (1957) and 2x Consensus 1st team All-American (1957, 1958)
Walt Wesley (1963-1966)
Darnell Valentine (1977-1981)
Ray Evans (1942-1944; 1945-1948): 2x 1st Team All-American (1942, 1943), also only player to have jersey retired in both basketball and football at KU
JoJo White (1965-1969)
Bud Stallworth (1969-1972)
Mario Chalmers (2005-2008): Final Four MOP (2008)
Clyde Lovellette (1949-1952): Final Four MOP (1952), 2x Consensus 1st Team All-American (1951, 1952)
B.H. Born (1951-1954): Final Four MOP (1953)
Wayne Simien (2001-2005): Consensus 1st team All-American (2005)
Danny Manning (1984-1988): Final Four MOP (1988), NPOY (1988), 2x Consensus 1st team All-American (1987, 1988)
Brandon Rush (2005-2008): 2x 1st team All-American (2007, 2008)
Gale Gorden (1924-1927): 1st team All-American (1926)
Bill Bridges (1958-1961)
Paul Pierce (1995-1998): Consensus 1st team All-American (1998)
Al Peterson (1924-1927): Consensus All-American (1926)
Dave Robisch (1968-1971)
Raef LaFrentz (1994-1998): 2x Consensus 1st team All-American (1997, 1998)
Cole Aldrich (2007-2010) Academic All-American of the Year (2010)
Out of the 30 players to have their jersey’s retired, 23 meet one of the stated benchmark criteria. That leaves 7 who are in the rafters because Self and others deemed them among the greatest to ever play at KU. Marcus Morris was the B12 POY and consensus 2nd team All-American in 2011. Based solely on measurable merits such as All-American honors and Big 8/12 POY awards, Marcus arguably has a stronger case than Kirk Hinrich, Walt Wesley, Darnell Valentine, and Bill Bridges. None of those players were B8/12 POY (although the B8 didn’t give out a POY from 1960-1967 which hurt Bill Bridges and Walt Wesley who probably would’ve won that award in 1961 and 1966 respectively).
Marcus will have one of the weaker resumes of the players in the rafters, but I would probably say that either Kirk Hinrich or Darnell Valentine have the weakest resumes of all the players that have received the honor.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Marcus was a big nothing historically. I’d take Kirk’s jersey based on 4 years + what should have been a national championship. Made his one free throw. Nick Collison 3-10 when it counted.
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@DanR But…Kirk passed up his chance at the end. Sigh…
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I actually won’t be surprised if the retire Wiggins and or Embiids jersey, and I think the main reason they would do it is for recruiting purposes.
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@DanR said in Marcus Morris:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Marcus was a big nothing historically. I’d take Kirk’s jersey based on 4 years + what should have been a national championship. Made his one free throw. Nick Collison 3-10 when it counted.
Ya. Two Final Fours and a National Championship game. 4-year player, 3rd-team All American.
Marcus was Sweet Sixteen, Round of 32, and Elite Eight. 2nd-team All American and B12 POY.
I’d take Kirk’s as well, but I admit that I’m biased.
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@mayjay said in Marcus Morris:
@DanR But…Kirk passed up his chance at the end. Sigh…
seriously? passed up a 30 footer to a feed wide open Lee or the desperation shot with 1.5 left? Wasn’t his best, but Kirk didn’t blow that game.
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To clarify, I don’t think Kirk is an outlier in the rafter jersey race. I also don’t think Marcus is remotely in the same league as any of the ones hanging currently.
If Self wants to water it down, whatever.
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Embiid and Morris got into a little shoving match tonight. Video will show up next to box. https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401161444
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@KirkIsMyHinrich said in Marcus Morris:
@DanR said in Marcus Morris:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Marcus was a big nothing historically. I’d take Kirk’s jersey based on 4 years + what should have been a national championship. Made his one free throw. Nick Collison 3-10 when it counted.
Ya. Two Final Fours and a National Championship game. 4-year player, 3rd-team All American.
Marcus was Sweet Sixteen, Round of 32, and Elite Eight. 2nd-team All American and B12 POY.
I’d take Kirk’s as well, but I admit that I’m biased.
It’s not about team success though when it comes to having a jersey hung. It’s about individual success and accolades because quite frankly, Aaron Miles has a better resume than Kirk Hinrich does and Miles isn’t up there and we don’t hear his name mentioned much about it and he is still KU’s all time assists leader.
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@DanR said in Marcus Morris:
To clarify, I don’t think Kirk is an outlier in the rafter jersey race. I also don’t think Marcus is remotely in the same league as any of the ones hanging currently.
If Self wants to water it down, whatever.
Difference being that Marcus Morris has accolades other players do not have that are up there such as conference player of the year which several players never achieved that are up there. I think you’re letting personal bias against Morris get in the way here. If you’re bringing should’ve won a national title into the argument, KU was the best team in the country in both 2010 and 2011 and should’ve won each of those titles. This isn’t a knock on Hinrich, but can anyone realistically argue that he was ever KU’s best player while he was here?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Marcus Morris:
@KirkIsMyHinrich said in Marcus Morris:
@DanR said in Marcus Morris:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Marcus was a big nothing historically. I’d take Kirk’s jersey based on 4 years + what should have been a national championship. Made his one free throw. Nick Collison 3-10 when it counted.
Ya. Two Final Fours and a National Championship game. 4-year player, 3rd-team All American.
Marcus was Sweet Sixteen, Round of 32, and Elite Eight. 2nd-team All American and B12 POY.
I’d take Kirk’s as well, but I admit that I’m biased.
It’s not about team success though when it comes to having a jersey hung. It’s about individual success and accolades because quite frankly, Aaron Miles has a better resume than Kirk Hinrich does and Miles isn’t up there and we don’t hear his name mentioned much about it and he is still KU’s all time assists leader.
Kirk Hinrich: 12.4 points, 3.8 rebounds, 4.7 assists, 49.3/43.0/77.6, 141 games, 20.0 win shares
Aaron Miles: 8.6 points, 3.3 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 41.5/34.2/75.5, 138 games, 13.4 win shares
How does he have a better resume?
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I think the thing that really puts Kirk over the top is the 2003 NCAA Midwest Region’s Most Outstanding Player award.
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Miles is right in there… Hell, I think I could make a case for Langford. Both shouldn’t be overlooked if they take it down a notch. From a sportsmanship perspective, the Morri played with fire and occasionally got burned (ahem VCU).
Wasn’t Cole Aldrich an academic All-American? Also had a triple-double with blocks, if I’m not mistaken.
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@dylans I agree about Kirk and Aaron, it’s also should be noted that they played different positions on the floor. Aaron was great and I think he gets over shadowed by Vaughn, Russel Robinson, Graham and Mason. Aaron is one of the best pure PGs to play here, I’d be fine with his number in the rafters. I don’t think it should be all on what the team did but I’m just gonna be honest I feel like the guys that are up there are top 5 at their positions to the date they were hung. I personally don’t think Marcus is a top 5 PF in KUs history. Arguably top 10 but I would rank Collison, Manning, Gooden, Lovellette, Simien, LaFrentz and Thomas Robinson ahead of him just off the top of my head. If you are to going to retire his number, you could make a case for half or better of Self’s players here.
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A conference POY and consensus 2nd team All-American, a 2x 3rd team All-American, or a second team All-American. Two of these players have jerseys hanging in AFH already. Who has the strongest case and who has the weakest case?
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Conference accolades seem insignificant when talking about all time KU greats. Roy watered it down enough. I don’t like what Bill is doing here. Have a ring of honor or some thing along those lines to honor the Marcus Morris, Kenny Gregory, Tyshawn Taylor types seems more appropriate.
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@dylans said in Marcus Morris:
Conference accolades seem insignificant when talking about all time KU greats. Roy watered it down enough. I don’t like what Bill is doing here. Have a ring of honor or some thing along those lines to honor the Marcus Morris, Kenny Gregory, Tyshawn Taylor types seems more appropriate.
KU has had more 1st team All-Americans than conference POY’s. Only 12 different Kansas players have been named Big 8/12 POY on 16 different occasions (Robisch, Manning, and LaFrentz won multiple times). Considering KU’s history, that’s a big achievement to be on of those 12 men. 8 of those 12 are currently in the rafters. The other 3 besides Marcus will be up there one day (Robinson, Mason, and Graham).
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@DanR Who said he did? My sigh was wistful regret–I would just rather he had shot it since the block indicates Lee was not open after all. Not blowing the game. All the missed FTs did that.
And I absolutely would prefer his in the rafters over either Morii!
My favorite memories of those times are the fast breaks, with Roy’s boys flying down the court in about negative two seconds…
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Best shot in basketball - the corner three. Second best shot in basketball any other three. Third best shot in b-ball - freethrow. Fourth best shot - dunk. Blew the game on 2 of the 3 most efficient shots.
Lee’s three was pure; Warrick was a freak athlete and super long. No one else on the court could’ve altered that shot. Dammit now I’m pissed about Hakim Warrick’s amazing block again.
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I’m now reliving that nightmare block. How dare you!!!
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@BeddieKU23 the free throws bother me much more than the block.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Somebody did that at every other school in the nation too, but it doesn’t mean they should hang their jerseys in the rafters.
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@nuleafjhawk don’t think it should be hung
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@Crimsonorblue22 Oh! Sorry, I thought you were for it. My bad. First time I’ve been wrong… since…2:10 pm today.
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@kjayhawks said in Marcus Morris:
@BeddieKU23 the free throws bother me much more than the block.
you just made it worse. Immediately remembers Jeff Graves not being able to hit the broadside of a rim
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@BeddieKU23 or Collison
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@BeddieKU23 Graves’ shooting was excellent except for missing 5 FTs, which isn’t that unusual for a big guy. Nick missed 7!
Maybe the 4 for 20 as a team on 3ptrs had a bit more to do with it. That 1-for-8 by Lee, Langford, and Miles was what should give you the clanking rim nightmares.
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@mayjay Lee should’ve been 2 of 5
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@mayjay Hinrich was only 3 for 12, the trouble is we couldn’t do both with missing 3s and FTs. I bet if you check box scores 99% of the time a team that shoots below 25 or 30% from distance and below 50% from the stripe, they lose.
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@kjayhawks I bet they hardly ever even have a chance at the buzzer, either. Geez, the Orange must have sucked for us to be close…
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@mayjay they really only won because Gerry Mac couldn’t miss from 3. If remember right they shot like 50% from 3.
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Bad 3 pt shooting, bad FT shooting and those ridiculous fouls on Keith Langford… Nightmare city
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this thread should come with “Warning: Could cause PTSD”
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Every comment I read was like “ouch” and “ooof” and “aargh”…
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I was 12 during that game and cried and cried and cried. Was inconsolable. Didn’t help that I handled as well or better than my family
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@FarmerJayhawk I was 46 during that game and I cried and cried. Didn’t help that I handled it worse than everyone around me.
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It was a tough loss. Vivid like the loss to Arizona and the Northern Iowa losses.
Fortunately, the antidote is to watch the final KU vs Missouri game, or the ISU vs EJ game… or the comeback vs WVU a couple years ago and the E8 game vs Duke. Ah, those are sweet.
(not to mention any of the run to the 88 or 08 NCs)
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@bskeet Tough to rank the losses but that 03 title is probably #1 for me, followed close by the Arizona sweet 16 loss in 97. It out weighs that one because it’s so darn hard to get to play for a title. The VCU and UK losses are up there as well.
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