Trouble?
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dylans said:
The sooner there is a resolution, even a poor one, the sooner things get back to normal. As long as the ncaa is investigating forget about getting anything consistent in recruiting.
Unlikely to see a quick resolution. I would expect KU takes most of the 90 days to respond then there’s another waiting period for the NCAA rebuttal and next course of action. Wouldn’t be surprised to see this lingering for the next year. Is that a fair assumption?
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@BeddieKU23 yes. I seriously doubt anything happens before the b-ball season ends.
Paul Finebaum (loud mouth hack) is expecting Bill Self to lose his job. Says Long isn’t a longtime Jayhawk so expect no loyalty there. Better win a championship this season to keep his job.
Not my take, probably a hot take to grab attention, but it’s an opinion that’s out there.
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I’m sure others think he could lose his job. It’s not out of the realm of possibility if the allegations stick, they did attack Self in the NOA with everything they had.
I think he’s gasping with the Long thing but I also think he is just generally connecting dots on how things go when new AD’s take over for coaches they didn’t hire. I don’t think the details fit the normal narrative that leads to coaching changes but maybe I’m just seeing things through Crimson & Blue. From everything I’ve heard from rumor to general impression is that Long/Self have a very good relationship and Long has been preparing for the moment to go to war for him and the program.
I guess we’ll see where the AD stands through this as things develop
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@BeddieKU23 @dylans I would be shocked if Long turns on Self. I firmly believe that Long would not have his job except for Self’s approval. I would suspect that Self required him to kiss the ring prior to his hiring. The issue is not Long in my opinion. It’s the Chancellor, board of regents, egg-heads. Those are the folks that could turn on him pretty easily. Get focused like I did on “honesty and integrity.” Sometimes that is a real consideration. From folks in the proverbial ivory towers, I doubt their sincerity … always. Of course, Long could see the opening to be more powerful here and turn on Self in part because of that. The consolidation of power thing.
And we know that only one person in the room profits from KU getting sanctioned. Mr. Long. I’d like to know the brain surgeon that put that deal together. But from Long’s end, he has the perfect storm – I didn’t do it, I get more money, and I can remove the King. Not saying it happens or that Long even thinks that way. Just discussion.
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NCAA Mission Statement (according to ncaa.org)
Core Ideology: The NCAA’s core ideology consists of two notions: core purpose - the organization’s reason for being - and core values - essential and enduring principles that guide an organization.
Core Purpose: Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.
Core Values: The Association - through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff - shares a belief in and commitment to:
· The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.
· The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.
· The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.
· The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.
· An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.
· Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.
· Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.
** WOW. A mission statement of crap from top to bottom
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BeddieKU23 @dylans I would be shocked if Long turns on Self. I firmly believe that Long would not have his job except for Self’s approval. I would suspect that Self required him to kiss the ring prior to his hiring. The issue is not Long in my opinion. It’s the Chancellor, board of regents, egg-heads. Those are the folks that could turn on him pretty easily. Get focused like I did on “honesty and integrity.” Sometimes that is a real consideration. From folks in the proverbial ivory towers, I doubt their sincerity … always. Of course, Long could see the opening to be more powerful here and turn on Self in part because of that. The consolidation of power thing.
And we know that only one person in the room profits from KU getting sanctioned. Mr. Long. I’d like to know the brain surgeon that put that deal together. But from Long’s end, he has the perfect storm – I didn’t do it, I get more money, and I can remove the King. Not saying it happens or that Long even thinks that way. Just discussion.
I don’t know why , but something just keeps tugging at me and trying to tell me IF this should happen , then don’t rule out ANYTHING. - -part of that anything and this is the thing for some reason I keep getting this sense - -this gut feeling - -what if Long doesn’t fire him - -BUT what if Coach Self says - - screw this - -Screw the NCAA and just walks? - - says enough of this BS recruiting – we all have heard how it takes quite the tow on people/family - -what if he just says he has had enough of the NCAA and their BS rules and regulations? - -what if they do suspend him and he just kicks rocks - -tries the NBA ?
The thing is what does he have left to accomplish at the College level? - - - Conference Championship? - -Done that - - - - NCAA Title ? - - -Done That - - - Being inducted to the College Hall of Fame ? - - - Done that – Coach of the year ? - - - Done that. - -maybe - - just maybe he is just plain tired of all this NCAA BS - -this is something that makes me wonder - - even if it’s just a small amount? - -Never say Never. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Elite level post. Best on this topic. Probably the best on this board, regardless of topic, all year.
I don’t think Self loses his job. The only evidence out there is that he let the Adidas guys do what other schools let their chosen apparel provider do. Like I said, everyone is staring down into the abyss. The only way back is for everyone to walk away.
Unless there is something more substantial against Self, this is just going to be a lot of screaming and yelling, but nothing more.
You also have to remember that a KU postseason ban also hurts the Big 12. Each NCAA tournament win is worth a unit. Each team that even makes the tournament receives a unit. A unit was worth $280,300 in 2019, $273,500 in 2018, $265,000 in 2017, $260,500 in 2016, $250,106 in 2015 and $245,500 in 2014. In 2019, KU was worth 2 units. In 2018, KU was worth 5 units. In 2017, KU was worth 4 units. In 2016, KU was worth 4 units, and 2 units each in 2015 and 2014.
That’s $560,600 last year, plus $1,367,500 in 2018, $1,060,000 in 2017, $1,042,000 in 2016, $500,212 in 2015 and $491,000 in 2014.
That’s $5,021,312 over the last six years. Since that is distributed over a six year period, that means each school in the Big 12 will receive $83K+ from KU’s basketball program this year alone. With each unit this year likely approaching $290,000, that’s nearly $5,000 per Big 12 school every year for the next six years for each win KU has in the tournament. Since KU is perennially worth at least two units, that’s an easy 10 grand on the line for the next six years for every school in the conference. A multiple year ban for KU could cost each conference school around $20K or more each year (assuming a two or three year ban). That’s not millions, but it definitely isn’t nothing.
It’s a wonder that every school in the conference isn’t storming the NCAA offices demanding fair treatment for KU. KU gets them paid every March. If the Big 12 is going to lose KU’s unit wins, the ACC should lose Duke (and UNC, and Louisville), the Pac12 should lose Arizona (and USC), the Big 10 should lose Maryland (and Michigan), and the SEC should lose Kentucky (and LSU).
Somehow, though, I don’t think the NCAA is looking forward to March Madness with no Duke, UNC, Kentucky, KU, Louisville, Arizona, USC, Michigan, LSU, etc.
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Kcmatt7 said:
The NCAA themselves, lack institutional control.
^^^^^ This is the quote.
In an age of broken institutions that operate with double-standards and hypocrisy, the NCAA is a model.
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Also, the timing of this comes after KU beat Duke three times straight. Could it be that someone’s knickers are in a twist?
oops, was that innuendo?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Now I’m mad and I don’t want Bill Self fired. Parish seems to say what we’ve been saying for years here.
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If Self is fired over this - I’m checking out. I will have watched my last college basketball game ever. I can do it - I quit a 3 pack a day cigarette habit cold turkey. I quit a case of beer per night (plus other assorted goodies) - cold turkey. When I set my mind to something - it’s done. I’ve been less and less enamored with college basketball the past several years and this would be the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. I hope it’s not the case - but I’m right there on the edge.
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just some insane tidbit to the NCAA - - and sanctions over the years… - - -
According to a article at the Inside Higher Ed.com. this was a 2016 Article - -in a time frame from 2006 through 2015 - -more then a quarter of ALL division 1 College’s - - 43 % of ALL FBS football programs and MORE then HALF of the members from Power 5 Conferences committed MAJOR violations of NCAA rules. - - you hear what I’m saying here - - more then HALF of Power 5 Conference members committed MAJOR violations - -this crap is insane.
16 programs were punished twice during this same time frame - - -AND two of our fellow conference members were punished 3 times during this time frame - - Oklahoma & West Virginia - -the numbers of this is kind of boggling to me - - I know most of this is with football but still the system is messed up - - -for all these programs to violate like that – over half of your members- -what’s wrong with this picture? - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Great article by Chad Lawhorn analyzing why the case involves the booster issue, etc.
http://m.kusports.com/news/2019/sep/24/analysis-understanding-what-matters-and-what-doesn/
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@Crimsonorblue22 here’s a link found in a comment. How reputable is it? https://www.oregonlive.com/business/page/the_loyalty_game.html
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nuleafjhawk said:
If Self is fired over this - I’m checking out. I will have watched my last college basketball game ever. I can do it - I quit a 3 pack a day cigarette habit cold turkey. I quit a case of beer per night (plus other assorted goodies) - cold turkey. When I set my mind to something - it’s done. I’ve been less and less enamored with college basketball the past several years and this would be the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. I hope it’s not the case - but I’m right there on the edge.
I would hate to see that… my friend!
Join me in the upcoming battle. The battle to turn KU into the first heavy-duty developmental team in America!
Receiving a swift kick in the teeth from the NCAA might even help us get this rolling!
We need to be done with the prima donna players, once and for all! We need NONE of that business. Enough of the fool’s gold!
We need coaches that know how to coach. Our assistants are recruiters and babysitters. I like our entire staff, but we need wholesale changes for what I’m talking about.
Just imagine seeing players playing the game the way it was intended. Imagine seeing players get out there and scrap their arses off! Imagine players knowing how to seal the boards, pop out over screens, hedge properly, and hustle like their life depended on it! Imagine March coming around and we go on a slaughter of teams full of high draft picks. Imagine being in the hunt every single year! Imagine 4 and 5 year players that really produce.
It’s all there just waiting for the right program to see it. Jay Wright sees it. We are positioned better than him. I’d rather be Kansas than Nova.
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@drgnslayr Copy and Paste!
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I keep coming back to this - If everyone is doing it, then everyone knows, that everyone includes Bill Self, and thus Bill Self has blatantly lied. The everyone could be a limited definition, say just the top 15ish programs. Or a broad definition. Doesn’t matter. We’re part of “everyone” as a top program. “Doing it” would be the shoeco folks (Nike, Adidas, UA) providing benefits for kids to attend certain schools.
But if everyone isn’t doing it, then we’re still left with allegations that no one is really denying – we’re only suggesting that we shouldn’t be punished for the allegations related to Gassnola/Adidas.
What am I missing here?
If those are the two choices, neither choice seems to end well.
How is it not a choice between the two.
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Everyone’s doing it. Selective prosecution. Nobody wants to see how the sausage is made.
I’ve been watching more NBA the last few years. The key is to watch the games and ignore ALL off the court stuff.
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The overwhelming fact is: the NCAA had absolutely zero choice after the FBI investigation broke. No choice at all… To save the last tiny sliver of their legitimacy and “integrity “they had no choice. As far as the explosion of money in college athletics, the train has left the station long long ago and as KCMatt has said, it is way too late to bring the train back. The NCAA needed to figure out a better more effective way to address this a long time ago in order to have any hope at all of keeping it in check. Sadly Adidas, far behind Nike, went and got the Watergate burglars in Gatto and Gassnola and the rest, and they got busted.
KU Unequivocably should fight this to the bitter end and with every resource they have.
We all know that despite the inevitable evolution of college athletics and the obscene amount of money that is now involved, Kansas basketball is bigger than all of this. Kansas basketball is a unique program, and it is bigger than this investigation, it is bigger than Bill Self, it is bigger than Adidas. We all understand this because of all the years we watched many senior nights, read Landon Lucas’s article about the true depth of the specialness of KU nation, countless examples of what is awesomely magical about The storied program of Kansas basketball. We will get through this. And who knows what we will find at the end of this journey. In all honesty, I am optimistic. Rock chalk
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@drgnslayr You’re a good cheerleader!
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I don’t think Self loses his job but its too early to say its not a possibility either. I believe he has the support of the AD however what about the support (as @HighEliteMajor) mentions from the Chancellor & Board of Regents. It’s too early to tell what position they may fall on and what interests they may have to protect for the greater good of the program when this is all over.
There was a Giant Red Flag hanging over Billy Preston’s head for most of his High School career and they still signed him. Gassnola was a known fraud and a high liability to have around the program. These are decisions that have come back to bite them now.
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I question why any of our coaches held conversations with any shoecos directly. How can that be viewed as anything but negative. It puts into question our argument that we did everything possible to stay clear from corruption. I addressed the optics here. Now on to the content. Prosecution should involve more than speculation. If speculation prosecutes then Duke is guilty for signing Zion… another recruit that seems to help paint a negative portrait of Kansas.
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HighEliteMajor said:
I keep coming back to this - If everyone is doing it, then everyone knows, that everyone includes Bill Self, and thus Bill Self has blatantly lied. The everyone could be a limited definition, say just the top 15ish programs. Or a broad definition. Doesn’t matter. We’re part of “everyone” as a top program. “Doing it” would be the shoeco folks (Nike, Adidas, UA) providing benefits for kids to attend certain schools.
But if everyone isn’t doing it, then we’re still left with allegations that no one is really denying – we’re only suggesting that we shouldn’t be punished for the allegations related to Gassnola/Adidas.
What am I missing here?
If those are the two choices, neither choice seems to end well.
How is it not a choice between the two.
I don’t give a rat’s ass if EVERYONE is doing it theory - - I only care about KU. - -so if everyone was to step o a land mine - -does that mean we should step on one too? - - lmao - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@drgnslayr You just asked the question of the day. It can’t be viewed as anything but negative.
One major point that I think we have not discussed is the process here. This is a private organization. They have internal rules. We are now guilty. Meaning, when the NCAA gives out a NOA, that means they’ve found you guilty based on what they have. The school is then placed in the position of having to prove its innocence, or mitigate the conclusions with other information (thus to my prior points about internal investigations, transparency, reports, acknowledgement – this should include remedial action, and how we handle it once we get the info). So we’re not in a position where the NCAA has to prove anything. They have their info.
And this is what I was trying to get across to one poster in particular prior to this coming out. There is a wealth of info. See the NOA. It’s very easy to connect the dots. That’s all the NCAA has to do. And stuff we didn’t know (or didn’t consider). Like Larry Brown. I didn’t really think of that. But it’s more wood on the pile.
The issue is the treatment of Shoecos. Isn’t that really it? Without the linkage (booster designation) between the Shoeco action and KU/Self, this is viewed much differently.
That’s where we’re in trouble though. The NCAA is linking this. They are saying we’re one in the same. It’s no different than the guy driving the get away car when his partner kills someone in the bank during a robbery – the get away driver still gets charged with murder.
What’s a cruel twist of logic is that the prosecutors said KU was a victim of Adidas. Now we’re the co-conspirator. The private organization is not bound by prosecutorial logic. Even with that, one could argue that Self and the staff were acting against the interests of the monolithic university. But we have talked about all of that here before – the discussions of how Self could get charged. I mean if he was a co-conspirator with Gassnola/Adidas, as the NCAA seems to conclude here, it would seem the prosecutor could conclude the same thing.
As @drgnslayr correctly points out – why in God’s name was Self texting with this guy? Texting? I guess that’s how it works at UNC and Duke. Creating a paper trail, electronic of course. I cannot even image what the failed phone call wiretap would have revealed. I’m sure someone here could have hooked Self up with one of those texting apps.
As @BeddieKU23 said, Gassnola was known fraud. We now know what others knew about him before all of this. And Self was texting with him. About recruits and Gassnola’s involvement.
This is connect the dots. It is really easy to do. The NCAA felt it was easy too. And they don’t have to do much more. That stinks for us.
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How Fortuitus for Arizona, LSU, Louisville among others. Carry on.
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BeddieKU23 said:
How Fortuitus for Arizona, LSU, Louisville among others. Carry on.
What a crock.
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Well, would this not indicate that KU is now NOT under a 90 day deadline to reply?
The NCAA is suspending its deadlines for schools to respond to charges levied by the governing body in the wake of college basketball’s corruption scandal. In a letter obtained by The Associated Press in a public-records request, infractions committee member Carol Cartwright wrote NCAA vice president of enforcement Jon Duncan last week to say the committee “will not act” on cases until Nov. 20. She also wrote that all “briefing deadlines” are on hold during that time, such as the 90 days schools or individuals have to respond to charges outlined in a Notice of Allegations (NOA). NC State and Kansas both face discipline from the NCAA after being named in a federal criminal case involving improper payments to recruits and their families, which grew out of an FBI investigation into apparel company Adidas. Sources have told ESPN that NCAA investigations are also underway at Arizona, Auburn, Creighton, Louisville, LSU and USC.
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The way I read that is it does in fact put a pause on everything including the 90 days KU has to respond.
This is classic NCAA. They over reached here and KU smacked them back and they were not ready for it. Now they have to suspend everything so they can get caught up and get ready for all out blood bath KU is about to unleash.
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rockchalkwyo said:
@Crimsonorblue22 here’s a link found in a comment. How reputable is it? https://www.oregonlive.com/business/page/the_loyalty_game.html
Extremely. This is the “water” that all the institutions are swimming in. Amateurism in high dollar college sports is dead. Long live amateurism. And like the piece @jayballer73 mentioned (link: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/11/96-division-i-colleges-violated-major-ncaa-rules-last-decade) it’s pretty clear that most, if not every single institution in the P5 is playing with fire. 56 of the 128 P5 members has had a major violation in the past decade. Like I’ve said, this isn’t just pervasive, it’s the norm. The NCAA can’t keep a lid on it, even when they try. They keep punishing schools yet the schools keep doing it. Maybe the underlying model is what’s broken?
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Call me lazy, but “lack of institutional control” is that not what Roy Williams was charged with some years ago at UNC? And they received squat.
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“Institutional control?” Aren’t we talking about Self and Townsend? Isn’t that “personal control?” I say that because it looks like we’ve exhibited very good institutional control. Billy and Silvio, both, were pulled off the court at the first sniff of trouble.
I mention this because it seems like if we receive penalties, it should be directed more towards the persons, and not the institution and the current players. Let’s not forget we have a model compliance program that has been copied all over the country. So the reputation of our university and compliance program need to be drug down in the mud?
This reminds me of the initial Silvio punishment. Punish him for his guardian’s actions.
Might we consider this to be where the line is drawn in the sand between Self and Kansas. Just how far are we willing to get behind Bill?
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HighEliteMajor said:
I’m trying to be respectful here. But you don’t understand what qualifies as proof. You seem to think there has to be a video, or a document that “convicts.”
So the perspective is considered, folks go to jail based on eyewitness testimony. The go to jail based on circumstantial evidence. You need to get past the opinion that there is no evidence.
For example -
TJ Gassnola testified under oath in a federal trial that he provided money to Preston and SDS. Testimony under oath is “proof.” Maybe not what you feel sufficient, but certainly sufficient in a court of law (and the low end stuff like NCAA enforcement). His level of credibility is extremely high because 1) Federal prosecutors put him on the stand in a high profile case, and 2) they would have vetted his claims related to his plea deal. Not to mention that his testimony helped lead to convictions, and his own actions led to a plea. KU presumably says they had no knowledge of it. So KU can’t deny it. KU undeniably sought Adidas’ help and intervention with recruits. The texting demonstrates that on its on, but that part isn’t denied anyway. Thus those actors, whom KU solicited for help, broke NCAA rules assisting KU in recruiting.
You also seem to think that because others are corrupt, KU can’t be punished. Don’t you think others have tutors that do the work for players like MU did? Or that booster give money to recruits like happened with BYU? They got punished, right?
The NCAA, like law enforcement, can only act on the info they have. Meaning, sure, others may be smuggling drugs but they don’t defer punishing those they catch because others are doing the same thing and not getting caught.
If you refuse to acknowledge or understand the above, I can’t help you.
As we sit here, we don’t know what the NCAA will do. I hope you’re right on the punishment. I fear a bad result. But I hope other factors weigh here and the NCAA wimps out (selfishly). I’ve felt from the start that if we get hammered, we should “burn it down.” That is, give the NCAA all the info we know on other schools, etc. Who knows, that might be going on behind closed doors. I would certainly, if I were KU, consider that negotiating strategy in advance to get a slap on the wrist.
I hear your every point, and - whatever the case may be the MCAA needs to weap
You are preaching to the choir, my man. I haven’t been to confession in years, and really don’t want to go.
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Was listening to Matt Norlander and Dennis Dodd doing an interview off CBS - -mercy they are painting a very possible ugly picture.
Was talking about a lot of other College Coach’s asking about KU - -behind the scenes wanting to know when this crap was coming down on us - - a lot of People waiting to see what is going to happen to Arizona. - - Yet they say they think Arizona is in that next tier , nothing happening with them till some time in 2020.
just kept talking about how KU was in some serious trouble , talking about Coach Townsend0 , Dodd talking about how he really doesn’t expect to see anything really happen this Season with KU - - it will be next Season - -doesn’t think there will be any post season ban - - THIS YEAR. - -sure sounds like Townsend could be gone.
Talks about how the NCAA could come to KU and say ok , these are your violations - - what are you going to do about them , he said He doesn’t think it will happen but Coach Self could be banned/suspended for TWO seasons - - other things they think can quite possibly happen and very likely will is vacating the 2018 final 4 because of DeSousa playing against Villanova – & also vacating the 2018 Big 12 title - - Coach Self looking at suspension for 2020 - - and possible post season ban in 2020
Other thing they said which we all ready know and that was that this is just going to destroy KU recruiting - the longer this lingers , because recruits not knowing how this is going to effect the season - - -and they don’t think we will know anything this year - -that it will be in 2020 - -because KU has 90 days for rebuttal and then the NCAA has 60 days to answer or whatever KU’S rebuttal
Guys this is going to be a REAL CHALLENGE - - emotionally and physically on people, gonna drain all ya got - -we need to be very aware this thing very easily could get really - - really ugly - - Coach Self will find bodies - - 4 year very developmental type more likely then not - - this is going to be a time when the rest of the Big 12 will realize now is the time to Kick KU’S ass because let’s face it - - were going to be down - -other schools gonna thrive on this crap - - Coach Self will get players - - - might be the type of Topeka YMCA players he talked about that year when we got beaten by whoever the hell it was and he was so PO’D - - - -gonna be some Juco’s - - maybe Grad transfers - - basically when all said and done , gonna be a player that has that frame of mind that he will come play for a HOF Coach no matter for the chance for this staff to develop them - - dark times ahead guys whether we are wanting to acknowledge or not.
And for the one’s that are just trying to laugh/brush this off - - thinking were just gonna get a slap on the wrist? - - umm ya you keep right on thinking that , and then let me have some of that shit you been smoking - -main time it’s time for you to put the pipe down and slowly back away - -it’s coming - -it’s just a matter of when - - you think slap of the wrist - - it’s more like getting those shots yanked down and getting that ass whupped NCAA whupping - - get ready - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Meanwhile, North Carolina landed a commitment from five-star center Walker Kessler on Sunday night.
NCAA: No Academic Violations at UNC Ruling comes despite university’s finding that many athletes were for years enrolled in and passed courses they did not attend and that were not taught by anyone.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc
I don’t buy into the “everyone else is doing it” excuse either but doesn’t it seem that the NCAA has always had double standards? Some schools seem immune to NCAA violations.
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What if I told you Kessler was the 2nd 5 star big man they have gotten this class. Nothing to see. Will shortly add their 3rd 5 star in Caleb Love (a once KU target)
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@BeddieKU23 I don’t see how Bill Self can go on the recruiting trail until the NCAA makes a ruling. Too many uncertainties. Hopefully, this doesn’t become a prolonged fight in the courts.
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Anyone know case law precedent on a victim being tried as a perpetrator of the crime for which they were exonerated?
I understand that the NCAA is not a court and therefore not beholden to double jeopardy laws, etc. Just curious if there’s some place where this has happened.
Also - really curious about the definition of a booster. If what I’ve read is true – that the NCAA suggests that it is anyone who influences (payment or not) an athlete toward a school (or schools), then that seems unenforceable. And indeed, this goes on everywhere and has been going on forever.
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bskeet said:
Anyone know case law precedent on a victim being tried as a perpetrator of the crime for which they were exonerated?
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Marco said:
HighEliteMajor said:
I’m trying to be respectful here. But you don’t understand what qualifies as proof. You seem to think there has to be a video, or a document that “convicts.”
So the perspective is considered, folks go to jail based on eyewitness testimony. The go to jail based on circumstantial evidence. You need to get past the opinion that there is no evidence.
For example -
TJ Gassnola testified under oath in a federal trial that he provided money to Preston and SDS. Testimony under oath is “proof.” Maybe not what you feel sufficient, but certainly sufficient in a court of law (and the low end stuff like NCAA enforcement). His level of credibility is extremely high because 1) Federal prosecutors put him on the stand in a high profile case, and 2) they would have vetted his claims related to his plea deal. Not to mention that his testimony helped lead to convictions, and his own actions led to a plea. KU presumably says they had no knowledge of it. So KU can’t deny it. KU undeniably sought Adidas’ help and intervention with recruits. The texting demonstrates that on its on, but that part isn’t denied anyway. Thus those actors, whom KU solicited for help, broke NCAA rules assisting KU in recruiting.
You also seem to think that because others are corrupt, KU can’t be punished. Don’t you think others have tutors that do the work for players like MU did? Or that booster give money to recruits like happened with BYU? They got punished, right?
The NCAA, like law enforcement, can only act on the info they have. Meaning, sure, others may be smuggling drugs but they don’t defer punishing those they catch because others are doing the same thing and not getting caught.
If you refuse to acknowledge or understand the above, I can’t help you.
As we sit here, we don’t know what the NCAA will do. I hope you’re right on the punishment. I fear a bad result. But I hope other factors weigh here and the NCAA wimps out (selfishly). I’ve felt from the start that if we get hammered, we should “burn it down.” That is, give the NCAA all the info we know on other schools, etc. Who knows, that might be going on behind closed doors. I would certainly, if I were KU, consider that negotiating strategy in advance to get a slap on the wrist.
I hear your every point, and - whatever the case may be the MCAA needs to weap
You are preaching to the choir, my man. I haven’t been to confession in years, and really don’t want to go.
I’m glad you’re now part of the choir because you were quite clear in your thoughts that the NCAA had nothing, not a “shred” of proof, “hearsay and innuendo”, etc. Anyway, this sucks for all of us.
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@Woodrow I hope it is an all out bloodbath.
If KU is “innocent”, then we need to fight to protect that. I see it playing out in court something like this:
NCAA Weasel: We use words like “honor,” “code,” “loyalty.” We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it.
I would rather that you just said “thank you” and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand the post. Either way, I don’t give a DAMN what you think you’re entitled to!
KU Lawyers: Did you order the Code Red?
NCAA Weasel: I did the job –
KU Lawyers: – Did you order the Code Red?!
NCAA Weasel: YOU’RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID!!! (Borrowed and slightly altered from “A Few Good Men”)
Summary: KU and Self are cleared of the charges, but found guilty of “conduct unbecoming” and ordered to be dishonorably discharged. (Vacate a couple of exhibition games)
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@nuleafjhawk I love this!!
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jhawk7782 said:
Meanwhile, North Carolina landed a commitment from five-star center Walker Kessler on Sunday night.
NCAA: No Academic Violations at UNC Ruling comes despite university’s finding that many athletes were for years enrolled in and passed courses they did not attend and that were not taught by anyone.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc
I don’t buy into the “everyone else is doing it” excuse either but doesn’t it seem that the NCAA has always had double standards? Some schools seem immune to NCAA violations.
For the MILLIONTH time. The NCAA can not do ANYTHING about classes that a college accredits and offers to all students. UNC cheapened it’s university for sports, but not illegal.
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jhawk7782 said:
Meanwhile, North Carolina landed a commitment from five-star center Walker Kessler on Sunday night.
NCAA: No Academic Violations at UNC Ruling comes despite university’s finding that many athletes were for years enrolled in and passed courses they did not attend and that were not taught by anyone.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc
I don’t buy into the “everyone else is doing it” excuse either but doesn’t it seem that the NCAA has always had double standards? Some schools seem immune to NCAA violations.
Here is your case for lack of institutional control. Here is your case proving institutional involvement! And just because the class is offered to non-athletes doesn’t excuse the AD from staying on top of their athletes’ classes. They should have realized these courses were not legit.
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jhawk7782 said:
@BeddieKU23 I don’t see how Bill Self can go on the recruiting trail until the NCAA makes a ruling. Too many uncertainties. Hopefully, this doesn’t become a prolonged fight in the courts.
I think he will continue to recruit as normal. He may go into situations knowing the result but I think you have to keep on it, especially with the future classes. Most programs have recovered quickly from the pits. Louisville and UNC are prime examples of that and their situations were a lot worse then this.
It will be interesting to see which route KU goes. How far does KU want to dig its feet into the sand and fight? To fight the booster designation placed on Gassnola it may require going to court.
Self will need legal counsel to fight the allegations against him separately since the penalties can result in a show-cause or termination.
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I see where Georgia Tech was banned from the 2019/2020 post season for “impermissable benefits”. A booster (former friend of Josh Pastner) provided money to recruits at a Gentleman’s Club. Now, THAT’S a booster!
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Duke did their investigation Hillary Clinton style
