Ochai
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Nice article on Wilson: https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article231695353.html? From the article: Self, when talking earlier this week, did nothing to lower expectations for Wilson — one of the top-rated recruits in the Jayhawks’ 2019 class along with Tristan Enaruna.
“He gives us size, he gives us toughness and he gives us skill,” Self said. “He’s not going to wow you like some people may think, like Josh (Jackson) could, from an athletic standpoint and quick-twitch standpoint, but he just knows how to play. He’s a winner.”
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approxinfinity said:
Texas Hawk 10 said:
@FarmerJayhawk It’s not really about Dave starting over Silvio because that’s not likely to happen. It’s more about whether or not Dave could back up Silvio. If Mitch redshirts, a back up 4 is the one potential weakness on this roster. Jalen Wilson’s athleticism is a big issue because he’s in the Brannen Greene, Quinton Grimes range of athleticism.
Yeah I’m already wondering how taking on Jalen was a good idea. This kid better have steel nerves and dedication. More Perry, less Q and Green.
Why would it not be a good idea? Best case scenario, he can play between 10 and 20 minutes a game, play decent D and make some threes. At worst, he’s a backup when someone gets in foul trouble who you can put it to steal a few minutes. Sounds like a win-win to me.
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I’m excited to have Jalen. I see him as a different form of Dedric. Remember how he was billed as being non-athletic? Dedric sure knew how to fill a stat sheet, and let’s face it, it’s the stat sheet that really determines the final score. I will always take these kinds of “non-athletes” over the high-flying guys that can’t fill a stat sheet.
From what I have heard about Jalen… he stays active and he embraces contact. He always finds himself around the ball. We haven’t had many players like that… so I’m psyched to have Jalen on this team. I’m worried about his freshman year… adapting to D1… but I’ve been convinced recently that he’ll find ways to contribute, even in his freshman year.
I think we’ve all been spoiled with a specific “standard” KU player; long, athletic, etc. We need to focus on who will contribute instead.
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@drgnslayr Good point. It’s nice to go after players that are perceived as having the most upside and talent, but at the end of the day, you need players who play smart and disciplined and make winning plays. I don’t think many would consider Villanova’s championship teams in 2016 and 2018 as being elite athletically, but were some of the smartest and well-disciplined teams I’ve seen in the last ten to fifteen years.
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HawkChamp said:
approxinfinity said:
Texas Hawk 10 said:
@FarmerJayhawk It’s not really about Dave starting over Silvio because that’s not likely to happen. It’s more about whether or not Dave could back up Silvio. If Mitch redshirts, a back up 4 is the one potential weakness on this roster. Jalen Wilson’s athleticism is a big issue because he’s in the Brannen Greene, Quinton Grimes range of athleticism.
Yeah I’m already wondering how taking on Jalen was a good idea. This kid better have steel nerves and dedication. More Perry, less Q and Green.
Why would it not be a good idea? Best case scenario, he can play between 10 and 20 minutes a game, play decent D and make some threes. At worst, he’s a backup when someone gets in foul trouble who you can put it to steal a few minutes. Sounds like a win-win to me.
I like taking him because Self should try to field the best team he can. I do however see Texas Hawk’s concern as these kind of players have mostly not worked out under Bill.
@drgnslayr We needed Dedric last year, but I think everyone was ready to move on by the end. A big part of the defense suffering was Q and Dedric. Dedric produced, but then gave it back on the other end. I can understand why Self favors athletic guys that can defend.
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I understand your concern. But don’t forget how many rebounds Dedric snagged, too.
Jalen is a different kind of “non-athlete.” He’s a tough guy who likes contact. I don’t think any of us would use that description for Dedric. Dedric just knew how to score and to some degree, rebound.
Expect Jalen to be on the receiving end of black eyes, scrapes, etc.
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I’m just nervous. The chemistry on the team seemed so perfect, so I see Jalen as the most likely risk to that chemistry. Having a less athletic guy who is a top 50 recruit and best friends with a top 10 guy, if he rides pine could be an unhappy camper. I don’t want that on the bench. Hope Im unnecessarily worried.
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@approxinfinity If that’s the case, he’s outnumbered.
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@BShark exactly about Dedric.
@drgnslayr if Wilson consistently plays good d then i won’t question his attitude, and I’ll be happy to be wrong. But that requires a combination of lateral quickness and commitment. Hard to believe he can play perimeter d well but not jump. Don’t you need quick twitch to stay with a man too? We will see if he has it.
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@approxinfinity 6’8” with a wing span to match makes up for a little quickness. He’ll get some minutes to season him for next year if nothing else.
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Our defense has lacked shot-blockers the last year or two. I could see that changing next year. And shot-blocking could be a determining factor in rotation of the front-court. Silvio and Doke have a bit more experience in this dept, but Dave’s size suggests he should be able to be a factor. It’s a skill in which instincts and timing can be an equalizer to athleticism.
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bskeet said:
Our defense has lacked shot-blockers the last year or two. I could see that changing next year. And shot-blocking could be a determining factor in rotation of the front-court. Silvio and Doke have a bit more experience in this dept, but Dave’s size suggests he should be able to be a factor. It’s a skill in which instincts and timing can be an equalizer to athleticism.
Some good points here.
Udoka is a guy that can average 2+ blks a game. His Soph year he had 60 and before the injury last season I think we saw some improvement from him on instincts and when to contest a shot at the rim. I distinctly remember him blocking a 3 point attempt in one of the earlier games last season. The instincts are there but he’s been limited every year in some capacity. I’m not expecting he becomes Embiid/Withey/Aldrich all of a sudden but I think his presence alone alongside another athletic big at minimum is going to limit easy baskets that our smaller lineups over the past few years have struggled with.
Silvio & Dave are not natural rim protectors but I think they will hold their own. Silvio is a very good athlete and we should see better defensive instincts out of him now that he’s had time in the program. If Dave continues to improve his athleticism and explosiveness as Self has said is happening you have to be excited about what he can do.
Prison Mitch has elite instincts as a shot blocker especially weakside. His anticipation is a skill.
There should be no excuse for KU limiting easy baskets and protecting the rim at an above average level this season
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Quick twitch is helpful, but not required in D1. Proper positioning is more important (hedging). At the pro level, they need everything.
I’ve come to realize that hedging isn’t part of the coaching at Kansas (or at most D1 schools). It’s a pity to give up such an advantage.
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bskeet said:
Our defense has lacked shot-blockers the last year or two. I could see that changing next year. And shot-blocking could be a determining factor in rotation of the front-court. Silvio and Doke have a bit more experience in this dept, but Dave’s size suggests he should be able to be a factor. It’s a skill in which instincts and timing can be an equalizer to athleticism.
Shot blocking itself isn’t essential. The ability to alter shots is more important to me and this roster is more than capable of altering many shots at the rim. Blocks will happen eventually, but I’m much more concerned about changing shots than blocking shots.
Blocked shots at the college level frequently go out of bounds and the other team usually retains possession. Altering shots usually lead to rebound opportunities and change of possession.
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Anyone see how good Ochai looked being fed by Tyshawn in the scrimmage? I hope DD was taking note…
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@KUSTEVE I hear what you’re saying, horses need to be fed.
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drgnslayr said:
Quick twitch is helpful, but not required in D1. Proper positioning is more important (hedging). At the pro level, they need everything.
I’ve come to realize that hedging isn’t part of the coaching at Kansas (or at most D1 schools). It’s a pity to give up such an advantage.
It is a relatively recent departure from hedging for Kansas, basically in the OAD era. Hopefully it returns.
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Help me out here, guys, but we hedge screens. Doke was hedging out top last year.
My view is that hedging HURTS three point defense. It’s a half measure. This is a concept that plays into the hands of the top three point shooting teams. Remember, this is a new age.
What happens to the hedger’s defensive responsibility? Right, three pointer drilled.
My view is that to combat the better three point shooting teams, we need to SWITCH on screens at the line. Big, small, short, tall. Doesn’t matter. It’s a trade off. Doke may get beat off the dribble if the switch is exposed. But so be it. We need to funnel those teams to a less harmful option. To combat three point shooting teams, we have to switch, and switch aggressively.
But I’d be interested in others’ thoughts.
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@HighEliteMajor dig it. I think you’re right. Makes sense.
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approxinfinity said:
drgnslayr said:
Quick twitch is helpful, but not required in D1. Proper positioning is more important (hedging). At the pro level, they need everything.
I’ve come to realize that hedging isn’t part of the coaching at Kansas (or at most D1 schools). It’s a pity to give up such an advantage.
It is a relatively recent departure from hedging for Kansas, basically in the OAD era. Hopefully it returns.
Boom. Basically they don’t play together long enough to learn how to play good team D. Hedging, switching, lane jumping. All improve with team chemistry.
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Moss will help the 3 point defense tremendously, imo. The only time Tech doubles is when they have you pinned on the baseline, and you’re trapped. Wish we did the same thing…
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I could be mistaken but I’m thinking TRele was the last guy that knew how to hedge.
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So, what we’re all saying is we’re ready for some freaking defense? I miss those days when the opposition scored 65 or 70, and we averaged about - just a ballpark - 84. Some can be attributed to the Big12 getting better (which it has) but not all. We’ve got the horses this year.
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@Marco I don’t want to see this again…ever:
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@KUSTEVE I hear you there.
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KUSTEVE said:
@Marco I don’t want to see this again…ever:
WHY - ? - - -WHY ? - - OH WHY ? - -Jethro - - WHY? - you love misery? lol - -I didn’t need to see that lmao. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@HighEliteMajor Yesterday I watched the 2007 epic Big 12 Championship game TX (with Durant) vs. KU and we switched on EVERYTHING back then. But to me the key was our players were so much more athletic and frankly so much better than today’s cache of players. The talent we had, especially defensively, was dramatically better than today’s players. Rush had 4 blocks that game, forget Sasha or Shady. And they were uber-athletic blocks. So to play D like that again, we are going to need much, much better athletes. I would say our new roster is moving in that direction, but basically every key player on that team played in high-level professional leagues and the main guys had good NBA careers. We are not at that level anymore, thus the drop in D and inability to hedge and switch effectively. When you watch that team, it is just astounding how hard they played and the level of intensity at which they played. Grimes moved on because he did not have that “it” like Russ Rob, Mario, Brandon, and Sherron. As Bill was fond of saying, “They were some hard rockin’ cats.” Grimes and his ilk are soft fluffy kittens in comparison. I also think we may have underestimated the loss of the influence of Danny and Jank. They were higher level coaches than Snacks and Roberts.
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@Fightsongwriter No question. Our bigs haven’t been the same since Manning left.
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I think a lot of it is desire. Hustle. Grit.
Jaybate and I used to talk about Mezzoball. Let’s take our team from this past year. Suddenly, they have their heads removed for losing a game. Don’t you think they would look a lot more athletic?
I think Dedric has more athleticism than people give him credit, perhaps not great, but better than he showed. And he could have made up for a lot by playing with energy. I recall so many times he would lumber back on defense…
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Don’t forget they changed the rules too! Really hurt our teams. I can’t see dedric being athletic, I’ve never seen a worse defender to play in my life. He must have sat out during the agility drills.
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While Dedric wasn’t the athlete all of us demanded, I’ll always admire any KU player that scores 20 and rebounds 10. Where would last year’s team have been without Dedric?
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I’m really glad most of the non-athletes have left the team. There is one newcomer it would appear though in Wilson (hope I’m wrong). Bill does better the more athletic his team.
One thing that always struck me, is Self said he looks for shooters first and foremost in recruiting. I wonder if that’s why he falls in love with a Garrett type whom he doesn’t have to reach nearly as much as the athlete-shooter who knows not much else?
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@dylans are you saying that he’s the exception to what Self’s looking for and so he stands out? I imagine Garrett reminds Self of his youth, back when the world was young and he believed that defense wins championships. Self got hurt bad by the killer BB losses and while his analytics told him “more possessions and more O, and embrace the OAD”, his heart whispered “Marcus garrettttttttt” and that’s how Marcus Garrett, KU jackknife and 2019-20 hero of the Jayhawk People was born.
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@Fightsongwriter Plenty of athletes capable of playing elite defense playing at TTU and Virginia. Unless you mean only current players at KU.
@drgnslayr Dedric WAS trying hard. He was just that slow and unathletic. He again, along with Grimes had some of the absolute worst measurables at the combine.
@Crimsonorblue22 Self should have adjusted to the rule changes by now. No more excuses it’s been many years.
@dylans What Bill says vs what Bill does.
@approxinfinity HOWLING.
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When discussing defense, and switching to defend the three … think of it this way. Is there any better defense against the three than stationing all five players equally spaced on the perimeter, and simply playing zone? There would be very little opportunity for a look from three. But, of course, and easy uncontested bucket underneath would result. Work backward from there.
One place you arrive at is active switching of everything outside of 15 feet.
I also arrive at a 3/2 zone where you guard the perimeter with the 3 players out front, with help from the ball side post defender. You expose yourself in other areas, but it’s a clear method to defend a bad a** shooting team from three. This is my favorite defense to use against the group of teams that a really three point shooting oriented.
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The best NBA teams have a rim protector who is a great rim runner on offense. This guy allows the other 4 to really press the 3 point shooters and fear the drive less because of the rim protector. We have Doke this year so the other 4 should theoretically be able to do this. You also have to have players that really understand the scouting report and know which guys they can help off of.
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So, our rebuild year only managed 26 wins…woe is us. Dedric is gone. Q is gone. Rec league Charlie is gone. Vick is still on important business… Mom NEEDS him. The first step in recovery is letting go of the past. Yes, we are scarred by only having 2 wins over Final Four teams. Not winning the B12. Not making at least an Elite 8. Oh, the horror. But hope abounds with our fresh faced cherubs to turn our little frowns upside down. Have hope, mighty Bucketeers…help is on the way…
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You are right about Dedric and Q having less athletic ability and I don’t want to give the impression Dedric never hustled. He definitely hustled on the offensive end, particularly when he had the ball and was trying to score.
As many called it before me… Dedric played “old man ball.” Sometimes he took plays off or reserved his energy for plays he could finish with results… hence… his solid stat sheet results.
I guess I can’t get one play out of my head. I think it was against ISU, and our guys were headed back on defense. Dedric was facing the ISU goal, on their side of the court and just jogging back, nice and slow and not even watching what was happening as the ISU player drove right past him for an easy layup. The optics were attrocious.
We had a lot of play like that last year, and from more players than Dedric.
Except for a player or two, like Devon… weren’t our guys rested enough to hang on the court with the speed of D1? I don’t think anyone will remember our team last year for their hustle. Speaking of Devon… with all his PT minutes… I put him at the top of the list for hustle.
I don’t think it matters how we stack our roster if our guys aren’t going to “take it to the max” on hustle. We’ll face an early exit in March again.
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In regards to defense, it’s not possible to defend everything without sacrifice. Self has made his bed and has chosen to defend the paint and the 2 point shot.
The problem with switching everything is that opponents will create match ups where Doke is brought out to the perimeter and switched onto a guard. Doke isn’t quick enough to guard out there and our guards aren’t strong enough to defend a big in the screen/pick and roll. This means opponents would have a lot of easy baskets at the rim or KU would be in massive foul trouble.
That’s what happens when you switch everything. With the 3 point line moving back, there will be a big reduction in the number of 3’s attempted just like last time the line was moved back and a drop in the 3 point % as well. Self’s current strategy on defense will be just fine next year and we’ll all be praising him for adjusting when the reality is that the adjustment came from the NCAA itself in moving the line back.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 The issue with the big on the perimeter is the obvious and previously stated issue with switching, which you reiterated.
You don’t switch everything against every team. You don’t switch everything all the time. You switch everything when defending the three is the top priority.
And of course, once you switch, you take the opportunity to re-establish your defenders when it’s available. And no, it doesn’t mean massive foul trouble. That’s where coaching comes in. The big has to defend the perimeter on his feet, not off his feet. And the smaller player has to avoid slapping at the ball when there’s a mismatch low.
The fact is that there will be mismatches everywhere.
It’s almost comical how the response is to say how it can’t work, no way, no how.
A link I found that might help with some insight.
http://www.zigzaganalytics.com/home/-how-elite-teams-defend-the-3-point-shot-in-the-modern-nba
Of course, the excellent point is that with the line moved back, we don’t know how that will play out.
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@drgnslayr I do think hustle was an issue at times last year. Grimes and Vick were prime offenders. Last year also had some of the worst team Chem I have ever seen under Bill.
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@HighEliteMajor Here’s my issue with switching on the perimeter. KU allowed opponents to make 33.6% from three last year. Final Four teams like Virginia, Tech, and MSU were all under 30% so over the course of a game, that’s 1 or 2 more there’s on average. Switching and guarding the line means sacrificing interior defense. There absolutely is a trade off for everything and that’s the trade off for guarding the line better is the interior defense. Being a poor interior defense bothers me a lot more than poor perimeter defense does.
The reason being that teams shoot much better the closer they get to the rim obviously. The other reasons why are like I said, teams would exploit that philosophy to get a big on a much quicker player which leads to either and easy lay up, easy lay up and foul, or slow rotation for an open 3.
My opinion probably comes from coaching middle school basketball where most kids can’t even make 10% from outside, but a lot think they’re Steph Curry and will shoot when open.
I will probably always be of the opinion of guarding inside as the top priority because those shots are such a higher percentage than outside that if I have to sacrifice something, I’ll risk getting burned from deep than getting burned from the paint.
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@BShark Yeah, once Dok went down that was pretty well all she wrote. But I agree on Lawson. Where would we have been last year without him?
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@HighEliteMajor Here’s my issue with switching on the perimeter. KU allowed opponents to make 33.6% from three last year. Final Four teams like Virginia, Tech, and MSU were all under 30% so over the course of a game, that’s 1 or 2 more there’s on average. Switching and guarding the line means sacrificing interior defense. There absolutely is a trade off for everything and that’s the trade off for guarding the line better is the interior defense. Being a poor interior defense bothers me a lot more than poor perimeter defense does.
The reason being that teams shoot much better the closer they get to the rim obviously. The other reasons why are like I said, teams would exploit that philosophy to get a big on a much quicker player which leads to either and easy lay up, easy lay up and foul, or slow rotation for an open 3.
My opinion probably comes from coaching middle school basketball where most kids can’t even make 10% from outside, but a lot think they’re Steph Curry and will shoot when open.
I will probably always be of the opinion of guarding inside as the top priority because those shots are such a higher percentage than outside that if I have to sacrifice something, I’ll risk getting burned from deep than getting burned from the paint.
This is where I’m at as well. Elite teams shoot around 40% from 3, which is equal to 60% from inside the arc on a points/shot basis. Sacrificing defense inside the arc might allow some teams to push that 60% number if they get enough easy looks at the rim. Better to lock people down inside the arc and dare them to beat you from 3, especially now that the line is further out. Even if the percentage made falls by a couple percentage points, say from 35% to 33%, That’s a couple points per game lost from the outside. The median was 24.4 attempts/game. So if 35% of that is 8.5 makes per game, and 33% is 8 per game. That’s 1.5 points less that we’d expect from the perimeter per game, holding attempts constant (which is convenient, but not entirely sure how realistic). Puts more of a premium on inside scoring since 2 pt FG% probably won’t change a whole lot. So on the margin I’m more in favor of not allowing potentially easy buckets inside and more for allowing a few more open 3’s.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 @FarmerJayhawk Both of your emails, in my opinion, miss the point of why I brought up switching.
It’s, again, not to do it all the time, and not against every team as your primary strategy. It’s when their three ball is a primary weapon.
I also think that you are missing an important point – shots “at the rim” are much different than “shots inside the arc.” Percentages are dreadful, usually, inside the are in relation to the relative value of the shot, when those shots are not at the rim. The only players NOT over 60% at the rim for KU last season were Moore, Grimes, and Garrett.
However, regarding the percentage from two point range, NOT at the rim, only three players were over 50% - Dave, Mitch, and KJ, and only Agbaji and Vick were the only other two over 40%. Everyone else was horrible, really.
But more importantly, you do not have to make a large sacrifice at the rim, to guard the three point line. You are just more compromised. You can do both. But you can give up the shot from inside the arc to five feet and guard both. That’s the area that a three point defensive strategy focuses on sacrificing.
There is not doubt that a good shooting three point team like Auburn is still more dangerous at the rim. But the game dynamic also impacts – our number of possession, our field goal percentage, the number of offensive rebounds caused by missed three point shots (which is better than on missed shots at the rim), etc.
The general approach to you comments seem to ignore the value of switching in the correct strategic context.
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@BShark Yes of cousre just KU players. But thanks for proving the point via TT and UVA!
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@HighEliteMajor very true, people tend to forget the worst shot percentage wise in the the game is just inside the 3 point line. I think moving the line back as they have done this offseason will really benefit our team.
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I know strategy on switches is important. But what I put above everything is hustle, team work and hedging.
When was that, 3 years ago when Nova throttled us in March? And with mostly 3-star guys, or whatever? I just remember we had a solid shooting trey team and our guys were never open in that game. And when the ball went inside, they pinched off driving lanes from our bigs and often forced TOs. Perry scored a whopping 4 points. Nova played really good defense. I know Self likes to consider his strategy to be about defense first… but we’ve never played sticky defense like that. Nova took us totally out of our game. We only scored 59 points and I recall we tightened the game up late or otherwise it was worse. They stole the ball from us 11 times in that game. If Devonte didn’t get hot from the outside we wouldn’t have scored 50. Most every shot was contested.
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drgnslayr said:
I know strategy on switches is important. But what I put above everything is hustle, team work and hedging.
When was that, 3 years ago when Nova throttled us in March? And with mostly 3-star guys, or whatever? I just remember we had a solid shooting trey team and our guys were never open in that game. And when the ball went inside, they pinched off driving lanes from our bigs and often forced TOs. Perry scored a whopping 4 points. Nova played really good defense. I know Self likes to consider his strategy to be about defense first… but we’ve never played sticky defense like that. Nova took us totally out of our game. We only scored 59 points and I recall we tightened the game up late or otherwise it was worse. They stole the ball from us 11 times in that game. If Devonte didn’t get hot from the outside we wouldn’t have scored 50. Most every shot was contested.
You’re right, of course. But don’t underestimate scheme. The foundation is what you suggest and have suggested in past … hustle and desire. You can’t have good defense without that. If we are not in the scheme to properly defend, if we’re defending a different game (one that didn’t emphasize the three), we’re looking like we did against Nova in the FF. They shot open three, after open three.
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Right. I’m just on my high horse about hustle. I feel like a lot of years we underachieve in that department. I do have a great feeling about this coming team and I rarely feel that optimistic when it comes to hustle.
I know Devon will play with a chip all year and surely others will, too, regarding being the team that lost the streak.
I see this as a team that will be all-in for Selfball.
