Ochai
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@Texas-Hawk-10 It’s definitely another issue. I like what I was starting to see last year with him working on screens and being able to recover. He also looks like he has slimmed down pretty well.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@BShark I suppose the other question with Dave at the 4 is does he have the quickness and agility to guard 4’s out on the perimeter?
Maybe that’s a risk worth taking now that the 3 point line has been moved back. Unless the 4 is a known 3 point shooter with accuracy guys with stretch ability might not be as accurate now.
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KUSTEVE said:
@HighEliteMajor The last two years, it’s abundantly clear we’ve had a defensive problem. We lost to Tech by 30. We got blown out by Nova. We got humiliated by Auburn. If the 3/2 helps us defensively, then I’m all for it…100%.
Coach use to pride himself with the bust as Defense – what happened? - like you say these last years have been bad – -really bad. - -I don’t know how many countless times last year I watch opposing players have WIDE - - -WIDE open 3’s - -hell they had time to pack a lunch throw the picnic cover down spread it out eat it and - STILL have time for the wide open 3 - -time and time again - -and if they weren’t wide open then All I saw was some one give like a half hearted jog out kind of throw an hand up and like Olay defense or allie - -allie all in free type approach - use to be if you didn’t play bust ass defense for Coach - you didn’t play - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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I don’t think Dave plays hardly any 4. No way he can guard most 4’s, let alone switch onto guards. Silvio can switch onto a lot of guards and has some skill, so he’ll play A LOT.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@BShark I suppose the other question with Dave at the 4 is does he have the quickness and agility to guard 4’s out on the perimeter?
Just interested me some to hear and got me hyped to a degree - -When the media asked Coach Self who the most improved player was from last year he said almost quicker then they could get the question out of their mouth - - - Coach said David McCormack hands down without a doubt - - -just thought WOW/Dam - I mean he didn’t even pause - -hesitate. - now I’m not sure like you I wonder about his foot work - -speed being good enough quick enough to try and defend the 4 - -all I know is looking forward to seeing the big guy work.
Now I know you’ll more likely then not if ever - -BUT let’s just play this scenario - -How awesome would it be if even for just a few minutes could you imagine - what if we saw Doke - - -McCormack - - & Silvio on the frontline at the same time for a couple of minutes? - -I mean - -JUMPIN - - -GEE - - HOSSA - - FATS - -could there be any more imposing front line in College Basketball then those beasts lol - -just messin around and wondering - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Don’t hold me to this… but I think Dave has “lightened the load” on his frame. He’s moving much better!
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@FarmerJayhawk It’s not really about Dave starting over Silvio because that’s not likely to happen. It’s more about whether or not Dave could back up Silvio. If Mitch redshirts, a back up 4 is the one potential weakness on this roster. Jalen Wilson’s athleticism is a big issue because he’s in the Brannen Greene, Quinton Grimes range of athleticism.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I’ve seen it discussed so it was worth bringing up. Honestly I wouldn’t want Mitch defending most 4’s either. He’s really springy but not great laterally. If Wilson fails to launch I could see Garrett playing some 4 if the matchup makes sense.
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@FarmerJayhawk I want everyone’s opinion on this, do you think (it seems some have more or less said as much) that he’s just a spot up shooter?
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He’s been in Lawrence for like 10 minutes. He didn’t play well yesterday but it’s June 19th and it’s a scrimmage so ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@FarmerJayhawk It’s not really about Dave starting over Silvio because that’s not likely to happen. It’s more about whether or not Dave could back up Silvio. If Mitch redshirts, a back up 4 is the one potential weakness on this roster. Jalen Wilson’s athleticism is a big issue because he’s in the Brannen Greene, Quinton Grimes range of athleticism.
Yeah I’m already wondering how taking on Jalen was a good idea. This kid better have steel nerves and dedication. More Perry, less Q and Green.
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Marco said:
@FarmerJayhawk I want everyone’s opinion on this, do you think (it seems some have more or less said as much) that he’s just a spot up shooter?
Not at all. He’s actually pretty skilled for a guy his size.
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@approxinfinity Wilson has some skills, but it will take time to develop those skills. All 4 freshmen are minimum 3 year players, likely 4 year guys. The one with the best chance to develop and leave early is Tristan Enaruna. I would say Enaruna is the 3rd best NBA prospect on this roster right now behind Ochai and Silvio and just ahear of McCormack.
If Enaruna can become a true wing at his size, he then becomes a potential lottery pick in 2022 or 2023. The ideal line up for KU in 2021-22 is McBride at point, Enaruna and Wilson as interchangeable pieces at the 3 and 4 spots, Braun as the 6th man, and 2020 recruits at the combo and post spots.
I like Braun and think we’ll have fond memories him when he’s done at KU, I just don’t see a high ceiling with him and if Braun’s starting by then, I think that means Self had some big whiffs in both the 2020 and 2021 classes at the combo guard spot. If Braun starts then because someone developed ahead of schedule, I can live with that.
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Nice article on Wilson: https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article231695353.html? From the article: Self, when talking earlier this week, did nothing to lower expectations for Wilson — one of the top-rated recruits in the Jayhawks’ 2019 class along with Tristan Enaruna.
“He gives us size, he gives us toughness and he gives us skill,” Self said. “He’s not going to wow you like some people may think, like Josh (Jackson) could, from an athletic standpoint and quick-twitch standpoint, but he just knows how to play. He’s a winner.”
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approxinfinity said:
Texas Hawk 10 said:
@FarmerJayhawk It’s not really about Dave starting over Silvio because that’s not likely to happen. It’s more about whether or not Dave could back up Silvio. If Mitch redshirts, a back up 4 is the one potential weakness on this roster. Jalen Wilson’s athleticism is a big issue because he’s in the Brannen Greene, Quinton Grimes range of athleticism.
Yeah I’m already wondering how taking on Jalen was a good idea. This kid better have steel nerves and dedication. More Perry, less Q and Green.
Why would it not be a good idea? Best case scenario, he can play between 10 and 20 minutes a game, play decent D and make some threes. At worst, he’s a backup when someone gets in foul trouble who you can put it to steal a few minutes. Sounds like a win-win to me.
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I’m excited to have Jalen. I see him as a different form of Dedric. Remember how he was billed as being non-athletic? Dedric sure knew how to fill a stat sheet, and let’s face it, it’s the stat sheet that really determines the final score. I will always take these kinds of “non-athletes” over the high-flying guys that can’t fill a stat sheet.
From what I have heard about Jalen… he stays active and he embraces contact. He always finds himself around the ball. We haven’t had many players like that… so I’m psyched to have Jalen on this team. I’m worried about his freshman year… adapting to D1… but I’ve been convinced recently that he’ll find ways to contribute, even in his freshman year.
I think we’ve all been spoiled with a specific “standard” KU player; long, athletic, etc. We need to focus on who will contribute instead.
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@drgnslayr Good point. It’s nice to go after players that are perceived as having the most upside and talent, but at the end of the day, you need players who play smart and disciplined and make winning plays. I don’t think many would consider Villanova’s championship teams in 2016 and 2018 as being elite athletically, but were some of the smartest and well-disciplined teams I’ve seen in the last ten to fifteen years.
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HawkChamp said:
approxinfinity said:
Texas Hawk 10 said:
@FarmerJayhawk It’s not really about Dave starting over Silvio because that’s not likely to happen. It’s more about whether or not Dave could back up Silvio. If Mitch redshirts, a back up 4 is the one potential weakness on this roster. Jalen Wilson’s athleticism is a big issue because he’s in the Brannen Greene, Quinton Grimes range of athleticism.
Yeah I’m already wondering how taking on Jalen was a good idea. This kid better have steel nerves and dedication. More Perry, less Q and Green.
Why would it not be a good idea? Best case scenario, he can play between 10 and 20 minutes a game, play decent D and make some threes. At worst, he’s a backup when someone gets in foul trouble who you can put it to steal a few minutes. Sounds like a win-win to me.
I like taking him because Self should try to field the best team he can. I do however see Texas Hawk’s concern as these kind of players have mostly not worked out under Bill.
@drgnslayr We needed Dedric last year, but I think everyone was ready to move on by the end. A big part of the defense suffering was Q and Dedric. Dedric produced, but then gave it back on the other end. I can understand why Self favors athletic guys that can defend.
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I understand your concern. But don’t forget how many rebounds Dedric snagged, too.
Jalen is a different kind of “non-athlete.” He’s a tough guy who likes contact. I don’t think any of us would use that description for Dedric. Dedric just knew how to score and to some degree, rebound.
Expect Jalen to be on the receiving end of black eyes, scrapes, etc.
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I’m just nervous. The chemistry on the team seemed so perfect, so I see Jalen as the most likely risk to that chemistry. Having a less athletic guy who is a top 50 recruit and best friends with a top 10 guy, if he rides pine could be an unhappy camper. I don’t want that on the bench. Hope Im unnecessarily worried.
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@approxinfinity If that’s the case, he’s outnumbered.
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@BShark exactly about Dedric.
@drgnslayr if Wilson consistently plays good d then i won’t question his attitude, and I’ll be happy to be wrong. But that requires a combination of lateral quickness and commitment. Hard to believe he can play perimeter d well but not jump. Don’t you need quick twitch to stay with a man too? We will see if he has it.
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@approxinfinity 6’8” with a wing span to match makes up for a little quickness. He’ll get some minutes to season him for next year if nothing else.
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Our defense has lacked shot-blockers the last year or two. I could see that changing next year. And shot-blocking could be a determining factor in rotation of the front-court. Silvio and Doke have a bit more experience in this dept, but Dave’s size suggests he should be able to be a factor. It’s a skill in which instincts and timing can be an equalizer to athleticism.
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bskeet said:
Our defense has lacked shot-blockers the last year or two. I could see that changing next year. And shot-blocking could be a determining factor in rotation of the front-court. Silvio and Doke have a bit more experience in this dept, but Dave’s size suggests he should be able to be a factor. It’s a skill in which instincts and timing can be an equalizer to athleticism.
Some good points here.
Udoka is a guy that can average 2+ blks a game. His Soph year he had 60 and before the injury last season I think we saw some improvement from him on instincts and when to contest a shot at the rim. I distinctly remember him blocking a 3 point attempt in one of the earlier games last season. The instincts are there but he’s been limited every year in some capacity. I’m not expecting he becomes Embiid/Withey/Aldrich all of a sudden but I think his presence alone alongside another athletic big at minimum is going to limit easy baskets that our smaller lineups over the past few years have struggled with.
Silvio & Dave are not natural rim protectors but I think they will hold their own. Silvio is a very good athlete and we should see better defensive instincts out of him now that he’s had time in the program. If Dave continues to improve his athleticism and explosiveness as Self has said is happening you have to be excited about what he can do.
Prison Mitch has elite instincts as a shot blocker especially weakside. His anticipation is a skill.
There should be no excuse for KU limiting easy baskets and protecting the rim at an above average level this season
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Quick twitch is helpful, but not required in D1. Proper positioning is more important (hedging). At the pro level, they need everything.
I’ve come to realize that hedging isn’t part of the coaching at Kansas (or at most D1 schools). It’s a pity to give up such an advantage.
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bskeet said:
Our defense has lacked shot-blockers the last year or two. I could see that changing next year. And shot-blocking could be a determining factor in rotation of the front-court. Silvio and Doke have a bit more experience in this dept, but Dave’s size suggests he should be able to be a factor. It’s a skill in which instincts and timing can be an equalizer to athleticism.
Shot blocking itself isn’t essential. The ability to alter shots is more important to me and this roster is more than capable of altering many shots at the rim. Blocks will happen eventually, but I’m much more concerned about changing shots than blocking shots.
Blocked shots at the college level frequently go out of bounds and the other team usually retains possession. Altering shots usually lead to rebound opportunities and change of possession.
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Anyone see how good Ochai looked being fed by Tyshawn in the scrimmage? I hope DD was taking note…
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@KUSTEVE I hear what you’re saying, horses need to be fed.
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drgnslayr said:
Quick twitch is helpful, but not required in D1. Proper positioning is more important (hedging). At the pro level, they need everything.
I’ve come to realize that hedging isn’t part of the coaching at Kansas (or at most D1 schools). It’s a pity to give up such an advantage.
It is a relatively recent departure from hedging for Kansas, basically in the OAD era. Hopefully it returns.
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Help me out here, guys, but we hedge screens. Doke was hedging out top last year.
My view is that hedging HURTS three point defense. It’s a half measure. This is a concept that plays into the hands of the top three point shooting teams. Remember, this is a new age.
What happens to the hedger’s defensive responsibility? Right, three pointer drilled.
My view is that to combat the better three point shooting teams, we need to SWITCH on screens at the line. Big, small, short, tall. Doesn’t matter. It’s a trade off. Doke may get beat off the dribble if the switch is exposed. But so be it. We need to funnel those teams to a less harmful option. To combat three point shooting teams, we have to switch, and switch aggressively.
But I’d be interested in others’ thoughts.
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@HighEliteMajor dig it. I think you’re right. Makes sense.
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approxinfinity said:
drgnslayr said:
Quick twitch is helpful, but not required in D1. Proper positioning is more important (hedging). At the pro level, they need everything.
I’ve come to realize that hedging isn’t part of the coaching at Kansas (or at most D1 schools). It’s a pity to give up such an advantage.
It is a relatively recent departure from hedging for Kansas, basically in the OAD era. Hopefully it returns.
Boom. Basically they don’t play together long enough to learn how to play good team D. Hedging, switching, lane jumping. All improve with team chemistry.
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Moss will help the 3 point defense tremendously, imo. The only time Tech doubles is when they have you pinned on the baseline, and you’re trapped. Wish we did the same thing…
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I could be mistaken but I’m thinking TRele was the last guy that knew how to hedge.
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So, what we’re all saying is we’re ready for some freaking defense? I miss those days when the opposition scored 65 or 70, and we averaged about - just a ballpark - 84. Some can be attributed to the Big12 getting better (which it has) but not all. We’ve got the horses this year.
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@Marco I don’t want to see this again…ever:
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@KUSTEVE I hear you there.
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KUSTEVE said:
@Marco I don’t want to see this again…ever:
WHY - ? - - -WHY ? - - OH WHY ? - -Jethro - - WHY? - you love misery? lol - -I didn’t need to see that lmao. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@HighEliteMajor Yesterday I watched the 2007 epic Big 12 Championship game TX (with Durant) vs. KU and we switched on EVERYTHING back then. But to me the key was our players were so much more athletic and frankly so much better than today’s cache of players. The talent we had, especially defensively, was dramatically better than today’s players. Rush had 4 blocks that game, forget Sasha or Shady. And they were uber-athletic blocks. So to play D like that again, we are going to need much, much better athletes. I would say our new roster is moving in that direction, but basically every key player on that team played in high-level professional leagues and the main guys had good NBA careers. We are not at that level anymore, thus the drop in D and inability to hedge and switch effectively. When you watch that team, it is just astounding how hard they played and the level of intensity at which they played. Grimes moved on because he did not have that “it” like Russ Rob, Mario, Brandon, and Sherron. As Bill was fond of saying, “They were some hard rockin’ cats.” Grimes and his ilk are soft fluffy kittens in comparison. I also think we may have underestimated the loss of the influence of Danny and Jank. They were higher level coaches than Snacks and Roberts.
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@Fightsongwriter No question. Our bigs haven’t been the same since Manning left.
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I think a lot of it is desire. Hustle. Grit.
Jaybate and I used to talk about Mezzoball. Let’s take our team from this past year. Suddenly, they have their heads removed for losing a game. Don’t you think they would look a lot more athletic?
I think Dedric has more athleticism than people give him credit, perhaps not great, but better than he showed. And he could have made up for a lot by playing with energy. I recall so many times he would lumber back on defense…
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Don’t forget they changed the rules too! Really hurt our teams. I can’t see dedric being athletic, I’ve never seen a worse defender to play in my life. He must have sat out during the agility drills.
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While Dedric wasn’t the athlete all of us demanded, I’ll always admire any KU player that scores 20 and rebounds 10. Where would last year’s team have been without Dedric?
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I’m really glad most of the non-athletes have left the team. There is one newcomer it would appear though in Wilson (hope I’m wrong). Bill does better the more athletic his team.
One thing that always struck me, is Self said he looks for shooters first and foremost in recruiting. I wonder if that’s why he falls in love with a Garrett type whom he doesn’t have to reach nearly as much as the athlete-shooter who knows not much else?
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@dylans are you saying that he’s the exception to what Self’s looking for and so he stands out? I imagine Garrett reminds Self of his youth, back when the world was young and he believed that defense wins championships. Self got hurt bad by the killer BB losses and while his analytics told him “more possessions and more O, and embrace the OAD”, his heart whispered “Marcus garrettttttttt” and that’s how Marcus Garrett, KU jackknife and 2019-20 hero of the Jayhawk People was born.
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@Fightsongwriter Plenty of athletes capable of playing elite defense playing at TTU and Virginia. Unless you mean only current players at KU.
@drgnslayr Dedric WAS trying hard. He was just that slow and unathletic. He again, along with Grimes had some of the absolute worst measurables at the combine.
@Crimsonorblue22 Self should have adjusted to the rule changes by now. No more excuses it’s been many years.
@dylans What Bill says vs what Bill does.
@approxinfinity HOWLING.
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When discussing defense, and switching to defend the three … think of it this way. Is there any better defense against the three than stationing all five players equally spaced on the perimeter, and simply playing zone? There would be very little opportunity for a look from three. But, of course, and easy uncontested bucket underneath would result. Work backward from there.
One place you arrive at is active switching of everything outside of 15 feet.
I also arrive at a 3/2 zone where you guard the perimeter with the 3 players out front, with help from the ball side post defender. You expose yourself in other areas, but it’s a clear method to defend a bad a** shooting team from three. This is my favorite defense to use against the group of teams that a really three point shooting oriented.
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The best NBA teams have a rim protector who is a great rim runner on offense. This guy allows the other 4 to really press the 3 point shooters and fear the drive less because of the rim protector. We have Doke this year so the other 4 should theoretically be able to do this. You also have to have players that really understand the scouting report and know which guys they can help off of.
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So, our rebuild year only managed 26 wins…woe is us. Dedric is gone. Q is gone. Rec league Charlie is gone. Vick is still on important business… Mom NEEDS him. The first step in recovery is letting go of the past. Yes, we are scarred by only having 2 wins over Final Four teams. Not winning the B12. Not making at least an Elite 8. Oh, the horror. But hope abounds with our fresh faced cherubs to turn our little frowns upside down. Have hope, mighty Bucketeers…help is on the way…
