Kicking Players Off The Team Game Thread
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@approxinfinity he won’t transfer. Either stay, enter draft or go overseas
Well I dont think entering the draft is a possibility at all. I know others have suggested someone will take a flier based on pedigree. He hasn’t shown enough. Or rather, he’s shown too much bad stuff. I just don’t see it.
Overseas seems like a rough rough ride for this guy.
The only option I see is stay in college here or elsewhere.
If he goes to a smaller school where he can reset expectations, practice for a year to catch up with D-I while he sits out, and then get starter minutes a la Frankamp, it would be the best for him. It doesn’t matter that he was a 5 star if he can’t make baskets and his D is slow.
If he stays at Kansas, he’s likely the 5th best guard next year. Self has to tell him “look Q, I gotta be honest… we’ve got Issac coming in, and the kid can really shoot. I know Marcus can’t shoot, but he’s fast, long, passes well and is an elite defender… And Devon and Ochai… well, you know. We’re gonna have to work on your game really hard this Summer in a lot of areas”.
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Q will be back. Any other decision is setting him up for failure. I don’t think his family is that dumb.
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@Kcmatt7 Whats your guess on minutes breakdown next year btwn Ochai, Devon, Issac, Marcus and Q? Do we go 4 guard again?
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@approxinfinity just don’t think he’ll sit out and wait 2 years to go. Good guess?
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@Crimsonorblue22 thank you
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
Chris beard pissed at the dock move! Love that guy!
https://twitter.com/phogadvisory/status/1096900445799211008?s=21
The TTU players got a bit caught up in the moment because SHOCKINGLY a team coached by Scotty Drew wasn’t just letting them dribble it out.
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approxinfinity said:
@Kcmatt7 Whats your guess on minutes breakdown next year btwn Ochai, Devon, Issac, Marcus and Q? Do we go 4 guard again?
I have absolutely no idea tbh. So many variables at this point.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@approxinfinity he won’t transfer. Either stay, enter draft or go overseas
Correct.
approxinfinity said:
Self yells “you’re soft” at Mitch. Mitch hasn’t been soft for 2 weeks. Does Self yell “you’re soft” at Grimes, I wonder? I’m sure he thinks it.
Self is usually pretty good at know what buttons to push. Sometimes he breaks kids though (Bragg for example).
HighEliteMajor said:
Do we want to win games, or play Grimes? It’s really that simple. KJ was the superior player today. Garrett will be the superior player when he returns. It’s mid-February.
Grimes needs to come off the bench. Period. This isn’t even a question now. If he would be permanently damaged because he’s so fragile psychologically, or he’d transfer, or whatever, so what.
This is the most flexible, softest I’ve seen Self with a player (not sure of the right term). But it’s not patience. This isn’t patience. It’s something a little twisted … a sadomasochistic patience. Painful to all involved.
If Grimes’ switch goes on in a few weeks, this will be the most impressive bit of “letting a player develop” I’ve ever seen.
I love the idea of letting a player develop. But I’m not seeing any hints of development or progress. Am I wrong?
And I’m really liking Dave/Mitch at the 5, as well (@kjayhawks). Lot of activity. And man, we say this a lot, but Mitch is incredible blocking shots. He’s one of the best I’ve ever seen.
I can’t help but think there are politics involved with Grimes. Ie he is simply too highly ranked/too good of a pedigree to sit. Because based on level of play he should be right there on the bench with Chuck. If Grimes wasn’t so damn slow you could justify him playing over KJ more (KJ is also quite slow) but KJ is just playing basketball better right now.
I’m beating a dead horse at this point but Mitch is an elite shot blocker. If he qualified on Kenpom (he doesn’t because he hasn’t played enough minutes) he would be top 60 in block rate. And he is down about 2% in that area this year.
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@BShark but do they look better cause of the quality of teams we r playing? Or, have they gotten better?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Both. WVU is terrible and OSU is terrible but still played well in those games. Winning on the road in Fort Worth I don’t think happens with Vick on the roster. Passing has been good, playing like a team. Effort is contagious etc…
Will be interesting to see the game down in Lubbock next Saturday.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Sportsmanship is fool’s gold.
hee hee
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There a lot to think about with Grimes. I thought he got overranked at the time. But it’s surprising how unathletic he’s been. I personally think he’s probably carrying 10 or more extra pounds that need to come off this summer.
I also just trust Self in this scenario. It took Self pressing buttons all the way through the conference tourney to get Newman going.
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Kcmatt7 said:
There a lot to think about with Grimes. I thought he got overranked at the time. But it’s surprising how unathletic he’s been. I personally think he’s probably carrying 10 or more extra pounds that need to come off this summer.
I also just trust Self in this scenario. It took Self pressing buttons all the way through the conference tourney to get Newman going.
Sorry, I just don’t see the Newman comp. Newman made poor decisions, looked sped up, trying to be the hero, but the athleticism never seemed in question. Grimes doesn’t do too much, he does too little!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Nice! Is that Kevin Young with the glasses and the 'fro in the middle?
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KUSTEVE said:
Did I hear Frannie right…that he thinks we’re going to go a long way in the tournament? Ok, what the hell is going on…did hell freeze over?
Last game he said sweet 16 ot E8 at least.
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approxinfinity said:
Kcmatt7 said:
There a lot to think about with Grimes. I thought he got overranked at the time. But it’s surprising how unathletic he’s been. I personally think he’s probably carrying 10 or more extra pounds that need to come off this summer.
I also just trust Self in this scenario. It took Self pressing buttons all the way through the conference tourney to get Newman going.
Sorry, I just don’t see the Newman comp. Newman made poor decisions, looked sped up, trying to be the hero, but the athleticism never seemed in question. Grimes doesn’t do too much, he does too little!
Newman was a ghost for 90% of the season is what I was getting at.
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@tundrahok yes
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@Crimsonorblue22 nice photo! Is that Teahan next to Gueldner? And I forgot the big guy’s name next to him…isn’t he a doctor now?
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So happy to see this team on the winning side of a blowout. I know Huggy Bear’s boys were undermanned, but happy to see us share the ball, play with some freedom.
— Jacque back in da house!!! Can’t recall the last time he was around. New assistant next year???
— I wonder if Pollard would make a good coach. Always solid in the post.
— Malik looked tall.
Back to the game…
— KJ! Did he look good or did he just make shots? No comment (says the KJ basher).
— Grimes had a sweet dish underneath…and nothing else.
— I’m officially happy with the team and rotation. Do not allow Vick to even come back to clean out his room, please.
— Big Dave is a giant, currently semi talentless spaznoid. But I love him!
— Mitch and Ochai need to be in an energy drink commercial.
— The Ochai baseline dunk made me smile.
— I refuse to read another NCAA corruption story the rest of the year.
— Love to see Dotson’s growing confidence.
— Even Fran was even keeled tonight!
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@stoptheflop We’re close to being good…maybe even really good. If there is a way we could work KJ in over Q, we could take that next step as a team. We would vastly improve our rebounding, we would have better 3 point shooters in the game, and the ball would flow better offensively. Defensively, we’d be better.This is a no brainer. Garrett would be much better than Q… even with the poor shooting. It’s time to pull the rip cord, Bill.
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approxinfinity said:
@HighEliteMajor I have to agree. At this point the Grimes experiment as a starter should be over.
The kid’s shot is erratic. I dont see a confidence issue on his shot. I see a guy incapable of playing off ball. A player who is not comfortable with the catch and shoot and needs reps reps reps and more reps. Hell, I see a kid who might have benefited tremendously from a redshirt in an alternate universe. And with the emergency of Agbaji and Devon in their current form, what good is a wing who can’t shoot and is slow on D? Devon, Agbaji and Garrett are all superior to Grimes in every way, save maybe one small point which is at this point splitting hairs. I believe Grimes is a superior passer (slightly) to Agbaji, but who cares? Earlier I was willing to see Grimes at point, but Devon is just too good there now. All ships have sailed on the Grimes experiment.
Charlie has even outplayed Grimes recently. I would not be shocked by a Q transfer in the off-season.
OH I would agree with MOST of what you said - - BUT your Point about Charlie – -oh hell no - no way- - no shape - - no form - -Charlie is not close to Q - - Q can play like he has been and STILL be better. - - Charlies shot selection at times look really suspect - -I mean he just launches - -very unaware of time on the clock - -where he is on the floor - - the scenario situation of game situation - -na just not happening.
Q is not transferring - - if anything he will be another idiot that would go ahead and try to go NBA - -which he is not even within a sniff of right now - that would be the worse mistake he could make -BUT he would never transfer to another College and have to sit a year – He either goes ahead and tires to play in NBA - which he would never make it at this stage – -OR - -he will come back to KU. - -Hell chances are a lot better for Charlie to transfer if anyone does that then Q - - plus as we know NBA drafts on Potential. - I respect your opinion but mine - - NO WAY is Charlie better then Quentin Grimes
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KUSTEVE said:
Dotson/Ochai/KJ/Dedric/Big Dave …I think that would be the sweet spot.
I’ve always thought KJ was a little better then being given credit for. - -Think w are now starting to see a more relaxed KJ - - - quality minutes – instead of mop up - I think KJ can help for sure in the remainder of the season
I’m liking the chemistry of this team - -the way minutes are being used now-c - -I say let’s roll with these - -think team is finding it’s self with the way Bill is now rolling the offense. – Pulling Dedric out on the floor? - - Very nice
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@approxinfinity he won’t transfer. Either stay, enter draft or go overseas
Exactly
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KUSTEVE said:
@stoptheflop We’re close to being good…maybe even really good. If there is a way we could work KJ in over Q, we could take that next step as a team. We would vastly improve our rebounding, we would have better 3 point shooters in the game, and the ball would flow better offensively. Defensively, we’d be better.This is a no brainer. Garrett would be much better than Q… even with the poor shooting. It’s time to pull the rip cord, Bill.
KJ is absolutely one of the best 7 players on the team right now.
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So I’m wondering why Q wouldn’t transfer if he felt KU wasn’t the place for him? Staying here is the best option I think we all agree. Why would the other options be better the staying in CBB? Simply sitting a year in the life of one’s career seems a minuscule sacrifice.
I sure hope he stays.
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HighEliteMajor said:
So I’m wondering why Q wouldn’t transfer if he felt KU wasn’t the place for him? Staying here is the best option I think we all agree. Why would the other options be better the staying in CBB? Simply sitting a year in the life of one’s career seems a minuscule sacrifice.
I sure hope he stays.
He is much more likely to go pro than transfer. And I also hope he stays as bad as he has been this year.
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@jayhawkcsg Christian Mooooody. Our favorite walk-on starter.
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kjayhawks said:
@approxinfinity tried to use the cloud, screen shot on my phone.
Hmm. Maybe it got posted too fast, didn’t have time to process the Pic? Usually that "uploading " text goes away after 100%
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@HighEliteMajor agreed. A transfer doesn’t seem illogical. I’d love to keep depth on the wings but where is the line on the depth chart that Q is unwilling to fall below? Or is this starter spot guaranteed for another year?
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Again Q is NOT transferring anywhere - like others have said on this today - -if he leaves the program - the only thing he is going is declaring for the NBA - -which would be laughable but the only way he is going anywhere. - -He isn’t for sure wanna transfer and sit for a year before he declares – he will be back - you can bank on it. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 You seem quite confident that Q won’t transfer and I’ve read this board (and the old site) long enough to know you have good instincts. However, I’m wondering if you have some inside knowledge.
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bcjayhawk said:
@jayballer73 You seem quite confident that Q won’t transfer and I’ve read this board (and the old site) long enough to know you have good instincts. However, I’m wondering if you have some inside knowledge.
It’s just logic my friend for 1 thing. - If you really step back an just look - -this kid DOES have the talent , he has just really struggled during his freshman year - -just like Soo many others that struggle to make that transition from High School to a major Div 1 school he by far isn’t the only very quality player to struggle. -But think. Here you have this kid that’s going from Being the man - -the stud - -pretty much at will doing whatever on the floor at High School - - and being the center of attention around the campus - being " THE STAR " comes to KU - -goes out the 1st game lights it up - -and thinking ya - - OAD - easy I’ve got this - -then comes out struggles - - misses a shot here – misses a shot there - - a TO here - -follow me ? -Then things become harder - - finds out that the moves he was able to get a way with in High School isn’t going to cut it on this D1 level - players just AS GOOD as him if not better - - he starts to force things in stead of just going out and doing what he did best - -just another case of where a player just stats to think - -TO MUCH - -just go out and play - -do your thing - -flo -just let it go
Transfer - - NO WAY- - The way I see it - - and now he believes it whether right or wrong - - Quentin has heard so much about being a OAD - -there is no way a once more likely then not - -OAD = is he gonna accept transfer where he has to sit out a year - -that means this once considered OAD - would now have played a year of College -then if transferring have to sit yet ANOTHER year - -. - -and he is not going to transfer out to a smaller school – just won’t happen - - - People have to know the talent is there - he has just struggled- -then believe I o not kids hear/read peoples comments on social media - -just adds to the pressure.
IF Quentin leaves it will be to the NBA Draft – would be a real bonehead move - -but as people know they draft on potential - -could be their still telling him they would take a shot on him – This kid IS talented - - no we not really seen it - -well we saw the 1st game and just went nuts - from then on we expected maybe to much - - Sorry about the question - -NO no inside information – just my thoughts - -gut feeling - usually get a gut feeling on things but I have none of this - -well I got a friend - -of a friend - -who has a fiend - -that has a friend that’s got hot inside info buddy but thanks for your compliment - -of me being pretty good or inside greatly appreciated.
No buddy - -I truly feel that Q will be back - -wok on his game right here. – Trust me he not going ANYWHERE - - if I’m wrong - -you can hit me hard – -let me have it - I can take it - -it will be ok - -if I’m wrong – I’m wrong --but I’m just not seeing it. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 My opinion. Most logical result - he comes back. Second most logical - he transfers. His performance in fact demonstrates he is in no position to do anything professionally right now. A guy with allegedly high talent needs to develop. It’s that simple. Too many examples of 3-4 year players that develop sufficiently and succeed professionally. Too many examples of high profile flameouts who prematurely go pro.
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@HighEliteMajor obviously the guy has loads of talent. He has found success clearly in the past. But I would submit it’s more of an effort and attitude issue right now. Does that fix is the question. The decision to stay here would suggest yes it could. Any other decision to my mind says no. Which will end up being an epic waste of God given talent.
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Ironic thing is Grimes would be great as a Jr. at KU. The same season he would become eligible for a team after transferring. I really hope he sticks around, this freshman core could be special as upperclassmen, maybe sooner.
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@HighEliteMajor The guys that stayed longer at KU (3-4 yrs), in general have done better and had longer NBA careers than the OADs. The exceptions will be Wiggs and Joel.
Stayed: Pierce, Rush, Chalmers, Collison, Raef, Pollard, Gooden, The Twins, Cole, Vaugn, Withy, Frank, Wayne?
OAD with strong NBA: Wiggs, Joel, Josh?, Oubre? (not sure the last two will be strong careers)
TRob is the outlier for one who stayed but never really stuck in the NBA. With his motor and rebounding, that one never made sense to me.
Wait and see: Devonte, Svi, and Frank
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@cragarhawk You said about Grimes, “But I would submit it’s more of an effort and attitude issue right now.” Agree completely. All you need to do is watch Agbaji go after a rebound and realize all Grimes has to do is give that effort. I’m sure the coaching staff has pointed this out to him. The lack of effort much of the time makes it curious to me why he holds his position in the starting lineup. I’ve never seen anything like this from coach Self in what he accepts from a player.
@Fightsongwriter Great list. It seems a no brainer to me for Q to stay here. The only thing that even causes us a second thought is the somewhat arbitrary #8 ranking. If he was #38, it would just be assumed that he’d stay. And I wonder if he’d still be starting if that were the case.
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@Fightsongwriter Oubre will be a 15 year guy.
Josh on the other hand, no bueno. He looks like he will get washed out soon.
You also forgot Henry. Who washed out. Diallo who seems like he is likely on a path to overseas. Cliff never had a chance. Selby washed right out.
OADs have not been good to Self. I don’t think you ever stop recruiting the best players though. You just can’t recruit sketchy ones. Which is basically all the ones we have landed… Which is why we are in the trouble we currently are in.
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Mitch showing up for Tech Saturday, who’s soft now?
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@Kcmatt7 You said, “OADs have not been good to Self.”
Maybe, if we are just looking from the outside, Self has not been good to OADs.
It’s long been my position. Self is not the best manager of the OAD player. We’ve had one really good one that fit our team, seemed to satisfy Bill Self (a big one), was not a drama queen, and was a team player – Josh Jackson.
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@Kcmatt7 actually i didn’t. I left off the wash outs. I prob should have left off josh.
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Josh and diallo have both been doing better.
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Selden has also been doing better in Chicago.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 You said, “OADs have not been good to Self.”
Maybe, if we are just looking from the outside, Self has not been good to OADs.
It’s long been my position. Self is not the best manager of the OAD player. We’ve had one really good one that fit our team, seemed to satisfy Bill Self (a big one), was not a drama queen, and was a team player – Josh Jackson.
Oh I fully agree with this.
Bill Self is a break them down, build them up coach. He is incapable of developing a player over just one year’s time.
From what I know about the program, Bill Self is as hard on his players as anyone in the country. Several times in the past 15 years has he almost literally come to blows with players. I do not think most OAD players respond well to this. Hell, basically no freshman respond to this under Self. Only the truly special players who come here with a chip on their shoulders have exceeded expectations as a freshman.
Because of Bill’s style of coaching and player development, I do not think OAD guys ultimately give him their best. They know all they have to do is survive Self, put up 10 points a game, flash some potential, and they are out of here. As Self put it with Josh, “he unpacked his bags.” Which is why JJ was the best OAD under Self to date.
It is certainly a problem with most of the OADs we recruit. Henry, Preston, Cliff, Diallo, Selby, Oubre and Wiggins were all guys who 100% took money already and knew they were going pro no matter what. So Self’s style doesn’t work with them. Calling those guys every name in the book is not going to motivate them. Challenging their manhood does nothing for them.
But, this is the style that Self has chosen for his program.
There is another style of coaching philosophy though. There is break them down. But then there is also what I’ll refer to as feeding the ego.
This is the K and Cal approach with young players.
These guys come in, knowing they are the greatest players in CBB. And K and Cal continue telling them that. They pat them on the back. The leave them in for 30 minutes a game and tell them no shot is a bad shot. Eventually, this does two things.
The first, it build their confidence. They aren’t worried if they screw up, they just continue playing basketball and will fix their mistakes later or learn from them for the next time.
The second, it creates a scenario where the players then crave praise. They need the praise. So they play harder. RJ plays harder because Zion got K’s praise for doing something because he needs the praise. Herro stays in the gym because Baker was getting praise for his shooting. The players start craving this praise. And that is how the coaches are able to push their buttons.
We have seen that this second strategy doesn’t always work. Some guys just aren’t competitive enough to push themselves. Sometimes freshman just aren’t physically capable of carrying a team. But, as we have seen when either of them are able to put together a special group of OADs, they become exceptional teams.
Now, back to Q. As we have talked about, Self has given him quite a long leash… But I sort of think that is a facade. Self is giving him PT. At the same time, I think Self is likely harder on him than anyone else on the team. What do you think film sessions are like? What do you think practices are like? I firmly believe Self absolutely destroyed Q’s confidence very early in the season. He broke him.
Watch just a minute of this video :
Have you, even once, seen Q do anything remotely close to anything in this video? Look at the flare. Look at the confidence. Look at the ELEVATION. Look at the attacking of the rim. You can see the talent. Hell, he looks 100 times more athletic in this video than at any point this season.
The Q we have right now looks like he had a head injury that made him forget how to play basketball. He seems so worried that he’s going to do something wrong and get the stick from Self that he’s not playing with any bit of confidence. He is so concerned with where he is supposed to be on the court, that making instinctual plays at this point is impossible.
To me, Q carries himself like a neglected child who only wants to here “I love you” from his dad. But he never did hear it. So now we are stuck with this lifeless version of Q who may never reach his full potential, and it certainly appears like he won’t this season. It’s unfortunate, as I think Q does have the abilities to be a great player, and I think this team is that one player short of being able to do something potentially special in the tournament…
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@Kcmatt7 nice write bud. Imagining those film sessions was not a pretty sight
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While I agree that Q looks like he is lacking in confidence more than anything else, I think the bigger culprit is the improved competition. His crossovers in those highlights just aren’t devastating his opponents in the same way in college. He can’t simply elevate over defenders on step backs. When has he ever beat anyone down the floor for a transition bucket? His speed just isn’t elite and that’s why we all love Dotson. Even vs. MSU, the game most regard as Q’s best of the year, all his buckets came on catch and shoot 3s (6-10). He didn’t go by people. He still only had 1 rebound.
Interestingly the one aspect from the highlight reel that is showing up on the court is his vision. He is routinely making at least one or two GREAT passes per game right now.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 You said, “OADs have not been good to Self.”
Maybe, if we are just looking from the outside, Self has not been good to OADs.
It’s long been my position. Self is not the best manager of the OAD player. We’ve had one really good one that fit our team, seemed to satisfy Bill Self (a big one), was not a drama queen, and was a team player – Josh Jackson.
I actually completely agree with this. Self has done his absolute best work with 3-4 year guys. The history speaks for itself.
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Q will never be fast like he appeared in high school. What is making it worse is that he cant make a jump shot. Anyone who has played knows that when your known as a shooter your first step becomes that much better because defenders are closing out fast on you. Nobody in their right mind is closing out fast on Q.
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@Kcmatt7 I agree with your characterization of HCBS’s approach of “break them down and build them up” - and, how it contrasts with K and Cal and how it may not work with perhaps more fragile egos. But, it seems that the issue may be more than just lack of confidence. It may be that Grimes doesn’t have quite the skill set or mental fortitude that his HS stats, the video and his class ranking would otherwise suggest. Perhaps competition (or lack thereof in Houston) as @benshawks08 suggests may be part of the problem.
When I look at the video, what I see is a decent handle, good vision and passing ability, a solid looking stroke, and pretty good hops. But, what I really don’t see is him attacking the rim - unless he has a clear path. In all but the last image, whenever he is driving toward the basket and there is a body somewhere in the way, he either falls away or throws up a floater. He simply doesn’t go at anyone with authority or purpose. And, that’s against players that were mostly smaller than him - at least not the size and bulk he is up against every game in D1. And, that has clearly been an issue during his tenure here - he seems to shy away from ANY kind of contact (whether driving, defending or rebounding).
Whatever the root cause, his lack of production across the board is actually stunning, esp. for someone as highly ranked as he was. There are 6 players on the team who have averaged between 26 and 33 minutes per game (including Vick for this purpose). Of those six, he is second to last in PPG (barely ahead of Garrett), last in RBs, next to last in assists, last in steals, last in FG%, last in FT% and second to last in 3pt%.
He is 4th on the team in total minutes played. Yet, he is 9th on the team in total offensive rebounds. He’s 6’5" and 210 lbs for goodness sake - on a team that needs everyone to contributed on the glass. He has just 11 offensive rebounds the entire season. He’s 6th on the team in steals. He has attempted just 38 FTs all season.
Confidence can affect your shot. It can affect whether or when you shoot. But, confidence shouldn’t really come into play fighting for position, battling for rebounds, diving for the loose balls and so on.
He may not ever be what we thought he would be - but he should and hopefully still can be much better that what he has shown through the first 26 games of his freshman year. Whether he is too broken, or whether he can be built back up, I guess time will tell…
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DCHawker said:
Confidence can affect your shot. It can affect whether or when you shoot. But, confidence shouldn’t really come into play fighting for position, battling for rebounds, diving for the loose balls and so on.
I can agree with or at least understand most of what you wrote. But this, I do not. Confidence influences your entire game. It’s funny how well a guy can play for an entire game if he hits a few shots to start the game. On both ends.
While I think to most, it looks as though Q has a lack of effort, I would argue that isn’t the case. He basically doesn’t contribute, as you pointed out. But I really don’t think it is due to a lack of effort. I think he has a lack of aggressiveness DUE to his lack of confidence. At this point, I think all of his basketball instincts are being second guessed.There are times it literally looks like he has never played the game, and it leaves you scratching your head. It isn’t like he has zero basketball IQ. You see him make a great pass almost every game.
The moment we see Q quit thinking and just start playing, he will be a 15 PPG, 5 Ast guy. I have no doubt that he is capable of it.
