Kicking Players Off The Team Game Thread
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Do we want to win games, or play Grimes? It’s really that simple. KJ was the superior player today. Garrett will be the superior player when he returns. It’s mid-February.
Grimes needs to come off the bench. Period. This isn’t even a question now. If he would be permanently damaged because he’s so fragile psychologically, or he’d transfer, or whatever, so what.
This is the most flexible, softest I’ve seen Self with a player (not sure of the right term). But it’s not patience. This isn’t patience. It’s something a little twisted … a sadomasochistic patience. Painful to all involved.
If Grimes’ switch goes on in a few weeks, this will be the most impressive bit of “letting a player develop” I’ve ever seen.
I love the idea of letting a player develop. But I’m not seeing any hints of development or progress. Am I wrong?
And I’m really liking Dave/Mitch at the 5, as well (@kjayhawks). Lot of activity. And man, we say this a lot, but Mitch is incredible blocking shots. He’s one of the best I’ve ever seen.
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Chris beard pissed at the dock move! Love that guy!
https://twitter.com/phogadvisory/status/1096900445799211008?s=21
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I think Q should play 10 - 15 minutes a game unless he catches fire or something. He just didn’t figure it out, and time is up. His shot is not even close. I said two games ago during a game chat that anything he gives the team from then on would be a bonus and that is still the case.
Imstillmthinkmthey need to win out for a share which isn’t likely, but Self needs to stop dicking around with Q.
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@JonRothstein Bill Self is the Ric Flair of the Big 12 and to be the man, you’ve got to beat the man. The streak is still alive — for now.
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@HighEliteMajor you are not wrong.
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@HighEliteMajor It is very interesting that Self has pretty much said he’s starting and that’s that. Everyone says its for recruiting, which is silly to me, lets show guys you can be crap with no consequences. I worry that some of the other guys that have shown up for more than 1 game are starting to get mad. IMO Garrett should start ahead of Grimes when he is able to go. I really don’t want to go back to a 4 guard line up at this point so hopefully self doesn’t take Dave out of the line up. I’d rather Garrett come off the bench than that.
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Bill must be seeing something out of Grimes. It’s unlike him to play a struggling freshman. It makes me think there is still hope for Grimes this season.
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@Kcmatt7 Maybe Adidas gave him a big check and we have to keep him quiet. Sadly that’s one of few logical explanations but at this point he could be the most overrated recruit we have ever had, people forget he was #8 in the country. To that in perspective Dotson was #20 and Ochai was a whopping #145. This is why I laugh when people say NBA draft this season for him. He’s maybe, maybe the 6th best player on this team.
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kjayhawks said:
I’m really starting to like this David/Mitch combo at the 5. I’ve been one of the guys screaming for Dave to get more minutes all season and think we are seeing it start to it pay off. He had some TOs again today but to me looks more comfortable every game he’s in. Nice to see Dedric didn’t have to carry us for once but still had a solid game.
I agree with ya - - - -The combination of Mitch & Dave - nothing super from them but you put the two together get like 15 points combined – -right at 10 rebounds - - like 5 blocks a charge from guess who -a couple of steals ( David ) - really liking Coach Pull Dedric out away - and like they say opening the lane for Devon - spreading out - - Dedric hitting a lot better pct from 3 for Dedric - -love it
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Question. When Marcus comes back - -does this effect Dave and Mitch in any way shape or Form? in the rotation ? - -for me - - I think w just need to roll with the way we are right now – Keep that starting line up just like it is – rotate your players just like you have been - -Just slide Marcus in the rotation. - -I would hate to think KJ minutes gets cut when Marcus returns - let Marcus come off the Bench right along with KJ - - - Marcus can play the 2 or 3- - - lets roll with what we got as they are. - -ROC CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 It’s time to pull the rip cord- start Marcus, and have Grimes come off the bench. I’m not sure that it would hurt our shooting percent- it might even help it.
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@KUSTEVE Garrett is better in every category besides 3 point shooting %. After today I think KJ may have a better 3 point % and he is better per minutes than Grimes by a lot. They both aren’t great on defense lol. I’d say regardless of if Grimes starts or not he shouldn’t be playing more than 15 minutes a game.
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@HighEliteMajor I have to agree. At this point the Grimes experiment as a starter should be over.
The kid’s shot is erratic. I dont see a confidence issue on his shot. I see a guy incapable of playing off ball. A player who is not comfortable with the catch and shoot and needs reps reps reps and more reps. Hell, I see a kid who might have benefited tremendously from a redshirt in an alternate universe. And with the emergency of Agbaji and Devon in their current form, what good is a wing who can’t shoot and is slow on D? Devon, Agbaji and Garrett are all superior to Grimes in every way, save maybe one small point which is at this point splitting hairs. I believe Grimes is a superior passer (slightly) to Agbaji, but who cares? Earlier I was willing to see Grimes at point, but Devon is just too good there now. All ships have sailed on the Grimes experiment.
Charlie has even outplayed Grimes recently. I would not be shocked by a Q transfer in the off-season.
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Dotson/Ochai/KJ/Dedric/Big Dave …I think that would be the sweet spot.
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@approxinfinity I don’t get the whole he can’t play without the ball thing. He was recruited as a SG, he is listed on every site as an SG that I can find. I just watched some of his HS film, he played off the ball a plenty, he wasn’t their primary ball handler from what I’ve seen. His story on everything I read was streaky shot and lack of effort were his main issues and there both very evident at this time. I think he just he isn’t near the athlete it looked like in HS. I realize was good for the USA team deal in the summer but the competition in that was mostly laughable. Most high level high school wouldn’t have had trouble with more than 1 or 2 teams in that. Kinda like us kicking butt in Korea all but 2 games against Pros.
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@kjayhawks you’ve done more recent research on him than I have. I was just going on the fact that when he has ball and steps into his shot or gets hit in the chest he can shoot. When he has to turn and shoot he can’t hit anything. Its a stark difference.
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@approxinfinity Grimes is simply inexplicable. Some have suggested he has been “more active” over the past few games.
Consider this. He has made exactly two buckets in each of the past 5 games. Over that span, he has averaged more TOs and fouls than FGs, RBs, or assists. He has made exactly ZERO FTs over those 5 games - only 2 attempts.
He made the first shot of the game tonight and then was 1-7. An early assist - and then the disappearing act - as has been the case in almost every game. He simply doesn’t impact the game in any meaningful positive way. What is truly astonishing is that a guy who is 6’5" and 210lbs averages well less than 2 RBs a game on a team that needs everyone to contribute on the boards.
The “good news” is that he only played ~20 minutes - probably 2-5 minutes too many.
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Self yells “you’re soft” at Mitch. Mitch hasn’t been soft for 2 weeks. Does Self yell “you’re soft” at Grimes, I wonder? I’m sure he thinks it.
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@approxinfinity Grimes is Charmin soft. HCBS must think that Mitch can handle it, but that Grimes not so much…
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Tried to share a picture of all the former guys in town today but it wouldn’t let me
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I wonder what happened there. You hit reply on someone’s comment then hit the cloud with the arrow on it and chose the file from your machine @kjayhawks ? Or was this something you were trying to link to on other site?
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Self challenging Mitch by yelling soft is his way of charging up his junior. Self must see Q as more fragile and knows Q needs more time to figure it out. A coach has to know which players benefit from criticism and which players would shrink from it.
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stoptheflop said:
Self challenging Mitch by yelling soft is his way of charging up his junior. Self must see Q as more fragile and knows Q needs more time to figure it out. A coach has to know which players benefit from criticism and which players would shrink from it.
Absolutely. But surely on a team with such lofty expectations that must be very clear to Grimes, whether it’s being yelled at him or not.
I don’t think there is any shelter for Grimes.
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@approxinfinity I agree with the other posters here: it’s time for Q to take a back seat and for most of his minutes to be given to another player who’s currently helping the team. I’d like to see KJ get more minutes.
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@approxinfinity tried to use the cloud, screen shot on my phone.
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@approxinfinity hopefully he gives Grimes the Bud Kilmer treatment lmao.
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@approxinfinity he won’t transfer. Either stay, enter draft or go overseas
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kjayhawks said:
@Kcmatt7 Maybe Adidas gave him a big check and we have to keep him quiet. Sadly that’s one of few logical explanations but at this point he could be the most overrated recruit we have ever had, people forget he was #8 in the country. To that in perspective Dotson was #20 and Ochai was a whopping #145. This is why I laugh when people say NBA draft this season for him. He’s maybe, maybe the 6th best player on this team.
Adidas gave Oubre one and Bill was harder on him.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@approxinfinity he won’t transfer. Either stay, enter draft or go overseas
Well I dont think entering the draft is a possibility at all. I know others have suggested someone will take a flier based on pedigree. He hasn’t shown enough. Or rather, he’s shown too much bad stuff. I just don’t see it.
Overseas seems like a rough rough ride for this guy.
The only option I see is stay in college here or elsewhere.
If he goes to a smaller school where he can reset expectations, practice for a year to catch up with D-I while he sits out, and then get starter minutes a la Frankamp, it would be the best for him. It doesn’t matter that he was a 5 star if he can’t make baskets and his D is slow.
If he stays at Kansas, he’s likely the 5th best guard next year. Self has to tell him “look Q, I gotta be honest… we’ve got Issac coming in, and the kid can really shoot. I know Marcus can’t shoot, but he’s fast, long, passes well and is an elite defender… And Devon and Ochai… well, you know. We’re gonna have to work on your game really hard this Summer in a lot of areas”.
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Q will be back. Any other decision is setting him up for failure. I don’t think his family is that dumb.
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@Kcmatt7 Whats your guess on minutes breakdown next year btwn Ochai, Devon, Issac, Marcus and Q? Do we go 4 guard again?
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@approxinfinity just don’t think he’ll sit out and wait 2 years to go. Good guess?
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@Crimsonorblue22 thank you
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
Chris beard pissed at the dock move! Love that guy!
https://twitter.com/phogadvisory/status/1096900445799211008?s=21
The TTU players got a bit caught up in the moment because SHOCKINGLY a team coached by Scotty Drew wasn’t just letting them dribble it out.
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approxinfinity said:
@Kcmatt7 Whats your guess on minutes breakdown next year btwn Ochai, Devon, Issac, Marcus and Q? Do we go 4 guard again?
I have absolutely no idea tbh. So many variables at this point.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@approxinfinity he won’t transfer. Either stay, enter draft or go overseas
Correct.
approxinfinity said:
Self yells “you’re soft” at Mitch. Mitch hasn’t been soft for 2 weeks. Does Self yell “you’re soft” at Grimes, I wonder? I’m sure he thinks it.
Self is usually pretty good at know what buttons to push. Sometimes he breaks kids though (Bragg for example).
HighEliteMajor said:
Do we want to win games, or play Grimes? It’s really that simple. KJ was the superior player today. Garrett will be the superior player when he returns. It’s mid-February.
Grimes needs to come off the bench. Period. This isn’t even a question now. If he would be permanently damaged because he’s so fragile psychologically, or he’d transfer, or whatever, so what.
This is the most flexible, softest I’ve seen Self with a player (not sure of the right term). But it’s not patience. This isn’t patience. It’s something a little twisted … a sadomasochistic patience. Painful to all involved.
If Grimes’ switch goes on in a few weeks, this will be the most impressive bit of “letting a player develop” I’ve ever seen.
I love the idea of letting a player develop. But I’m not seeing any hints of development or progress. Am I wrong?
And I’m really liking Dave/Mitch at the 5, as well (@kjayhawks). Lot of activity. And man, we say this a lot, but Mitch is incredible blocking shots. He’s one of the best I’ve ever seen.
I can’t help but think there are politics involved with Grimes. Ie he is simply too highly ranked/too good of a pedigree to sit. Because based on level of play he should be right there on the bench with Chuck. If Grimes wasn’t so damn slow you could justify him playing over KJ more (KJ is also quite slow) but KJ is just playing basketball better right now.
I’m beating a dead horse at this point but Mitch is an elite shot blocker. If he qualified on Kenpom (he doesn’t because he hasn’t played enough minutes) he would be top 60 in block rate. And he is down about 2% in that area this year.
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@BShark but do they look better cause of the quality of teams we r playing? Or, have they gotten better?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Both. WVU is terrible and OSU is terrible but still played well in those games. Winning on the road in Fort Worth I don’t think happens with Vick on the roster. Passing has been good, playing like a team. Effort is contagious etc…
Will be interesting to see the game down in Lubbock next Saturday.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Sportsmanship is fool’s gold.
hee hee
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There a lot to think about with Grimes. I thought he got overranked at the time. But it’s surprising how unathletic he’s been. I personally think he’s probably carrying 10 or more extra pounds that need to come off this summer.
I also just trust Self in this scenario. It took Self pressing buttons all the way through the conference tourney to get Newman going.
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Kcmatt7 said:
There a lot to think about with Grimes. I thought he got overranked at the time. But it’s surprising how unathletic he’s been. I personally think he’s probably carrying 10 or more extra pounds that need to come off this summer.
I also just trust Self in this scenario. It took Self pressing buttons all the way through the conference tourney to get Newman going.
Sorry, I just don’t see the Newman comp. Newman made poor decisions, looked sped up, trying to be the hero, but the athleticism never seemed in question. Grimes doesn’t do too much, he does too little!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Nice! Is that Kevin Young with the glasses and the 'fro in the middle?
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KUSTEVE said:
Did I hear Frannie right…that he thinks we’re going to go a long way in the tournament? Ok, what the hell is going on…did hell freeze over?
Last game he said sweet 16 ot E8 at least.
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approxinfinity said:
Kcmatt7 said:
There a lot to think about with Grimes. I thought he got overranked at the time. But it’s surprising how unathletic he’s been. I personally think he’s probably carrying 10 or more extra pounds that need to come off this summer.
I also just trust Self in this scenario. It took Self pressing buttons all the way through the conference tourney to get Newman going.
Sorry, I just don’t see the Newman comp. Newman made poor decisions, looked sped up, trying to be the hero, but the athleticism never seemed in question. Grimes doesn’t do too much, he does too little!
Newman was a ghost for 90% of the season is what I was getting at.
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@tundrahok yes
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@Crimsonorblue22 nice photo! Is that Teahan next to Gueldner? And I forgot the big guy’s name next to him…isn’t he a doctor now?
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So happy to see this team on the winning side of a blowout. I know Huggy Bear’s boys were undermanned, but happy to see us share the ball, play with some freedom.
— Jacque back in da house!!! Can’t recall the last time he was around. New assistant next year???
— I wonder if Pollard would make a good coach. Always solid in the post.
— Malik looked tall.
Back to the game…
— KJ! Did he look good or did he just make shots? No comment (says the KJ basher).
— Grimes had a sweet dish underneath…and nothing else.
— I’m officially happy with the team and rotation. Do not allow Vick to even come back to clean out his room, please.
— Big Dave is a giant, currently semi talentless spaznoid. But I love him!
— Mitch and Ochai need to be in an energy drink commercial.
— The Ochai baseline dunk made me smile.
— I refuse to read another NCAA corruption story the rest of the year.
— Love to see Dotson’s growing confidence.
— Even Fran was even keeled tonight!
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@stoptheflop We’re close to being good…maybe even really good. If there is a way we could work KJ in over Q, we could take that next step as a team. We would vastly improve our rebounding, we would have better 3 point shooters in the game, and the ball would flow better offensively. Defensively, we’d be better.This is a no brainer. Garrett would be much better than Q… even with the poor shooting. It’s time to pull the rip cord, Bill.
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approxinfinity said:
@HighEliteMajor I have to agree. At this point the Grimes experiment as a starter should be over.
The kid’s shot is erratic. I dont see a confidence issue on his shot. I see a guy incapable of playing off ball. A player who is not comfortable with the catch and shoot and needs reps reps reps and more reps. Hell, I see a kid who might have benefited tremendously from a redshirt in an alternate universe. And with the emergency of Agbaji and Devon in their current form, what good is a wing who can’t shoot and is slow on D? Devon, Agbaji and Garrett are all superior to Grimes in every way, save maybe one small point which is at this point splitting hairs. I believe Grimes is a superior passer (slightly) to Agbaji, but who cares? Earlier I was willing to see Grimes at point, but Devon is just too good there now. All ships have sailed on the Grimes experiment.
Charlie has even outplayed Grimes recently. I would not be shocked by a Q transfer in the off-season.
OH I would agree with MOST of what you said - - BUT your Point about Charlie – -oh hell no - no way- - no shape - - no form - -Charlie is not close to Q - - Q can play like he has been and STILL be better. - - Charlies shot selection at times look really suspect - -I mean he just launches - -very unaware of time on the clock - -where he is on the floor - - the scenario situation of game situation - -na just not happening.
Q is not transferring - - if anything he will be another idiot that would go ahead and try to go NBA - -which he is not even within a sniff of right now - that would be the worse mistake he could make -BUT he would never transfer to another College and have to sit a year – He either goes ahead and tires to play in NBA - which he would never make it at this stage – -OR - -he will come back to KU. - -Hell chances are a lot better for Charlie to transfer if anyone does that then Q - - plus as we know NBA drafts on Potential. - I respect your opinion but mine - - NO WAY is Charlie better then Quentin Grimes
