Vick Coming Back
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Alright KU fans, I heard about Vick coming back yesterday and I was, to be honest, kind of dreading it. I didn’t want him to come back after he had left the program. I still feel like he might screw up the chemistry of the team. The jury is still out on that. But, having read the quotes and the posts on here I think it could be a good thing. If Vick plays ball, so to speak, on and off the court and fully buys into what Self wants, this team will be so deep and so talented from the first tip of the first game until the end of the season. Im not predicting anything but it is not out of the realm of possibility that we could see another final four in '19.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jayballer73 Me too! You know what I’m most excited about??? The UNIFORMS!! How many combos can we have? Red helmet, blue jersey, blue pants?? No, no wait … White helmet, red jersey, white pants??? But that’s not the best. Blue helmet, white jersey, white pants! A big WOW is all I can say!!! It is so unbelievably incredible!! Every weekend, something new! Metallic? I’m in!!!
Sorry, just shoot me now.
Na I said call me a sadist - -not sadistic lol - - Besides I need to save my bullets for important things - - whoaaaaaa who the hell said that lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 I used to really look forward to FB season … now I dread it. It’s beyond bad. Someone deliver us from our unique version of purgatory …
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As far as this whole Vick thing , thing is If Coach Self is willing to give him a 2nd - -3rd chance then so am I. - I fully trust in Coach - -not that it matters my voice isn’t squat - they don’t ask my opinion and smart not to - -cause I’m wrong - - wrong a lot - -but if he is willing to allow him back then I 'm good with it.
The way I see this , I’m far from perfect, I know I’ve made mistakes through my life. I done wrong at times especially during early years I’m sure just about everyone here at one point and time has -I’m sure that just about everyone here has at one point slacked whether it be at work - - or younger at school work - -or in some kind of practice - -point is we all make mistakes throughout our lives - thank GOD for the land of opportunity forgiveness and 2nd chances. - Last time I knew their was only one perfect person and he isn’t walking this earth right now. - -So I’m good with Vick coming back
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jayballer73 I used to really look forward to FB season … now I dread it. It’s beyond bad. Someone deliver us from our unique version of purgatory …
Ya I understand - - it’s hard and frustrating for me at times - -but I can’t give up
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I don’t think KJ can beat out Vick. I think it’s going to be Charlie/Grimes/Vick/Dedric/Doke at the beginning of the season, with Dotson moving into Charlie’s spot as Dotson gets his sea legs under him. Our 2nd team would be at least a Sweet 16 team…geez. For all the criticism Bill took last year for leaving his roster short with the transfers, it sure looks pretty ingenious now.
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@KUSTEVE Imagine if he convinces 3 players to redshirt…
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Kcmatt7 said:
@KUSTEVE Imagine if he convinces 3 players to redshirt…
I don’t think they want to tie up scholarships that long, but it would be crazy.
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@BShark probably not, but it would also give them a chance to grad transfer later if we decided it was time to move on.
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Found a pretty decent article written by Matt Tait today , Was talking about Vick’s return , and there was at one point where he pretty much echoed what I said after I heard about Vick’s return. he said:
" Even with his experience not so sure that it’s a given you just plug him in automatically in the starting line up.- He was saying so many people just wanting to automatically throw him in. - but he is not so sure- -( this is what I’ve been trying to say.) Matt says if he EARNS the spot through hard work and good attitude THEN it will be hard to keep him out of the starting line up. BUT Matt says he doesn’t get the sense that his experience and Veteran status will be enough to compel Coach Self to make him a starter automatically for the get go’ Something I’ve said - -I just don’t think Vick just struts in and just BAM automatically takes his spot back with out earning it he is going to have to beat others out - -only right.
Matt says he is going to have to win the job and part of winning the job is going to be directly tied to his attitude and commitment in PRACTICE along on how he handles himself away from the basketball side of things.
Pretty much I’ve been telling others - Vick has a long road ahead of him- He has to prove this was a good decision - - come compete - -battle and have his head on right , at all times - if he does he could have a monster season
Then on another note , they was talking about red shirt possibilities for the up coming season and I guess Agbaji told reporters while working the camp at Washburn that he would be open to red shirting this season. - -he said I’d be fine with it , Anything I can do to help the program and better myself. - Sounds like a pretty level headed kid - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Vick is the difference between a paper team and a real one.
Back when Brown found him, he was a future PG; then Self put him through the play-out-of-position at the 2-3 for 3 years. Board rats forget he is really a PG. Like Devonte and Tyshawn he is primed for a great 4th season at the point, after serving as domestique at the 2.
Vick at point would be cruel MUA most games!
Self will probably start out playing him as a sixth man at all perimeter positions to show Grimes and Dotson they aren’t ready.
Vick was never considered a PG. He was recruited as a 2/wing.
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Evidence please.
Next.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Vick is the difference between a paper team and a real one.
Back when Brown found him, he was a future PG; then Self put him through the play-out-of-position at the 2-3 for 3 years. Board rats forget he is really a PG. Like Devonte and Tyshawn he is primed for a great 4th season at the point, after serving as domestique at the 2.
Vick at point would be cruel MUA most games!
Self will probably start out playing him as a sixth man at all perimeter positions to show Grimes and Dotson they aren’t ready.
Vick was never considered a PG. He was recruited as a 2/wing.
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Evidence please.
Next.
Man, you’re too smart to give me such an easy one. KU announced him as a 2 when he signed. https://kuathletics.com/news/2015/6/2/MBB_0602155530.aspx
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jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Vick is the difference between a paper team and a real one.
Back when Brown found him, he was a future PG; then Self put him through the play-out-of-position at the 2-3 for 3 years. Board rats forget he is really a PG. Like Devonte and Tyshawn he is primed for a great 4th season at the point, after serving as domestique at the 2.
Vick at point would be cruel MUA most games!
Self will probably start out playing him as a sixth man at all perimeter positions to show Grimes and Dotson they aren’t ready.
Vick was never considered a PG. He was recruited as a 2/wing.
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Evidence please.
Next.
Every article and recruiting service and mention of him. I challenge you to find a single article or quote from Self calling him a PG.
I’ll humor you though.
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2015/lagerald-vick-6055
https://247sports.com/Player/Lagerald-Vick-75845//high-school-130051
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/202794/lagerald-vick
https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article22932219.html
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/06/02/lagerald-vick-kansas-recruiting-2015-reclassifies
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2015/may/17/lagerald-vick-commits-kansas/
Here is even an article from when he committed to SMU: https://smu.rivals.com/news/breaking-3-star-sg-lagerald-vick-commits-to-smu-reclassifies-to-2016-free
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@jaybate-1.0 Did you see Vick’s handles last year, worse than EJ’s who was listed as a PG coming out of HS. Vick was also listed as a shooting guard by every major recruiting service. Are you saying that all the recruiting sites were lying to everyone about what position Vick played because the evidence sure doesn’t point that way.
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Vick gives KU the option to go big or small now because you have another guy that can play multiple positions.
Grimes can slide over to the point and you go big with Grimes, Vick, KJ, Dedric and Doke. Also, that lineup is nasty.
You can go small with Dotson, Grimes, Vick, KJ and Dedric. That could be a starting lineup.
You can mix and match (Moore, Dotson, Vick, Dedric, Big Dave) or go super small (Moore, Dotson, Grimes, Vick, KJ) if a team ever trots out a lineup with five perimeter oriented players. Just lots of flexibility with Vick here.
I am guessing part of Self’s conversation with him was that he won’t be a starter this year. Grimes is the superior player, and KJ makes a lot of lineups work with his defensive potential. Vick returns to being a role player off the bench, where he could reach his full potential.
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@justanotherfan Isn’t Dok a guaranteed starter? Coach Self sure seems to like Dok as a starter. Dok was starting as a very raw freshman until he got hurt.
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stoptheflop said:
@justanotherfan Isn’t Dok a guaranteed starter? Coach Self sure seems to like Dok as a starter. Dok was starting as a very raw freshman until he got hurt.
This is the first time Self has had options.
That said, I think Doke starts.
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Hell ya Doke starts. zero chance he doesn’t.
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@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 - October 1, 2017 "Of Vick, KU coach Bill Self said: ‘He can do a lot of things. His stroke has gotten a lot better. Legerald can play point guard I think because he’s so fast and he’s a good ball handler. He’s not a point guard but he can certainly take pressure off guys when Devonte is not in the game.’ "
So Self did mention him at point guard. A mention.
Very interesting to hear Self before last season … "“There’s a lot of things to like about this game,” added Self, who said Vick has been KU’s best player “from maybe the beginning of the summer (to now).”
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@HighEliteMajor Preseason fluff as it turns out. Which…is why I do want to see Dedric in action at this level. It is a mention though, which was my only qualifier. I mean, kind of a mention? Self also very firmly states Vick isn’t a PG.
I feel there is much more evidence that Vick is simply not a PG. If he were capable, Self would play him at that spot. Also lots of empirical evidence.
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Interesting…
Soren Petro Verified account @SorenPetro
JESSE NEWELL: Some Kansas players were told a couple of months ago that Vick was gone. Now they’re stuck there. There could be a couple guys on the team that wish they could go elsewhere now.
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@BShark I was much more interested in the discussions about Vick heading into last season. He was my pick to be our best player last season. I think this could be a huge game changer having him back.
I was just pointing out the “mention.”
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BShark said:
Interesting…
Soren Petro Verified account @SorenPetro
JESSE NEWELL: Some Kansas players were told a couple of months ago that Vick was gone. Now they’re stuck there. There could be a couple guys on the team that wish they could go elsewhere now.
I saw this as well. I think Cunliffe is one guy who might have transferred again and just lost a year of eligibility, but I’m not sure who else he would be talking about…
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark I was much more interested in the discussions about Vick heading into last season. He was my pick to be our best player last season. I think this could be a huge game changer having him back.
I was just pointing out the “mention.”
“He can play point guard I think” “He’s not a point guard”
Still, it is a mention. And honestly in my brief look earlier I couldn’t find a single one, but I didn’t look terribly hard. Much more on him being a 2 guard plus he has played exclusively 2-4 under Self.
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If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is “primed for a great 4th season at the point”. Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.
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Woodrow said:
BShark said:
Interesting…
Soren Petro Verified account @SorenPetro
JESSE NEWELL: Some Kansas players were told a couple of months ago that Vick was gone. Now they’re stuck there. There could be a couple guys on the team that wish they could go elsewhere now.
I saw this as well. I think Cunliffe is one guy who might have transferred again and just lost a year of eligibility, but I’m not sure who else he would be talking about…
Possibly Garrett, but he doesn’t seem like the type.
I’m going to listen to the entire Newell segment now and see if there are more nuggets.
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BShark said:
If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is “primed for a great 4th season at the point”. Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.
I don’t think your gonna have to be worrying about conceding anything buddy - -Vick will not be playing any PG - not even close for his Senior year. - If he does you will then see me become the pope in the near future lol.
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Guaranteed? No.
Probable? Yes.
The most likely starting lineup is Dotson-Grimes-KJ-Dedric-Doke.
I could certainly see some other lineups (swap Moore for Dotson above, or swap Vick for KJ above, or both), but I think Doke factors in because he is such a big matchup advantage against most teams.
Of course, you still have De Sousa in the mix, and I could certainly see him mixed into that, but I can’t see him starting over Dedric. Grimes is just too talented not to play. I think KJ forces his way into the lineup also.
The only guys that probably are disappointed about Vick’s return are Cunliffe and Agbaji. Agbaji almost certainly won’t see much, if any action this year now. Cunliffe saw his chances at minutes sliced in half. But I don’t think anyone else would have changed their minds.
And ultimately, I don’t think Self is in the same situation as Coach K was with Carter because everyone that did come to KU already knew that KU was pursuing Romeo Langford hard. So there was a scenario where Langford picks KU rather than Indiana and both Cunliffe and Agbaji are in the same position they are in now.
Maybe Cunliffe would have transferred at the end of the Spring Semester, but he would have had to transfer down to D2 to play immediately, otherwise he loses a whole year of eligibility. Plus, Cunliffe still could transfer out and be eligible to play at the D2 level.
The Agbaji situation is more straightforward to me. He picked KU knowing Grimes was coming, Langford was being recruited, and Cunliffe was already here. He knew that he was behind Grimes and would be behind Langford. When Agbaji picked KU, there was no sign that Vick was even contemplating leaving (Agbaji declared in February). It wasn’t even assured that Newman was leaving.
I could see guys being disappointed that they have thought for two months that they would be getting more time with Vick (and Langford) out of the picture, but I don’t think they were misled at the time of their decisions because the facts at the time they made their choices had Vick still very much in the picture.
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I listened to the Newell segment. All conjecture. Nothing concrete. Not like he heard something from a player. More Petro just trying to stir the pot, imo.
The team voted to let him come back. Bill said there will be rules and stipulations for his return. We were looking to add someone anyways, so pissing off players with playing time issues isn’t any different than if we had recruited Langford.
I see no issues with anyone other than Vick and whether or not he becomes the player and teammate that he agreed to be this season. But his leash is probably amazingly short and if he even steps a little bit out of line, no doubt he is gone.
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Lol Petro just keeps blaming Vick for JJs car incident. And saying how Self bringing him back could lead to the rest of the team having discipline issues. Really just kind of a poor segment. When Petro gets on his soapbox, I usually change the station.
IMO, this is exactly the right move. Bringing back Vick on a short leash is better than adding a 5* recruit.
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@HighEliteMajor So you’re evidence of Vick being a PG is a quote from Self last season when KU had only 1 PG on the roster. The only reason Vick would’ve ever seen a minute a PG last year would’ve been as Newman’s back up had Graham gotten injured at some point.
There is zero video evidence to suggest Vick is capable of running point. His handles are worse than EJ’s when he was forced to play out of position. Lagerald Vick at point would be an absolute disaster. He is also by far the worst ball handler among the perimeter players who will see relevant minutes next season.
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@Kcmatt7 Vick was the fuel in that incident because Vick and Calvert were dating at one point and the incident happened pretty soon after they broke up. Vick was with another girl rubbing that new relationship in Calvert’s face afrer Vick realized Calvert was there. I said it then and I’ll say it again, Lagerald Vick being an a-hole to Calvert is what caused that whole situation to explode.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Everyone on this site knows this.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 It was more the repetition on the segment that I was referring to. He probably brought the incident up 10X
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Lots of players could play PG but they don’t. Garret actually played PG in HS and was POY in Texas playing at that position and did not play PG at KU; I can see him playing PG before Vick. If Vick plays PG at KU, the team is in serious trouble.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 What planet are you on? Thanks for the useless lecture though. No, I don’t think Vick will ever play point guard. I never said that, of course. But that’s ok.
Of course, for those following along, which might be this entire board minus one, I simply quoted Bill Self, which included the part where he said Vick is not a point guard. And the point of the quote is that Bill Self, his words, mentioned that Vick could “can play point guard.” This was related to posts above that said Vick had never been mentioned in that area. And it seemed worthy given the discussion.
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@BShark I was thinking Agbaji might be one that JN thinks might wish he were somewhere else?
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@Hawk8086 Sam, if anyone.
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Agbaji indicated he had no problem red shirting since he will in all likelihood be a 4 year player and an extra year gives him a chance to possibly get a Masters as well…all paid for…
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Garrett?
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Coach Self seems to like Garret, particularly the way he plays defense. He will get decent minutes.
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Catching up on a lot of threads tonight. Sure seems like the hot weather is making a number of people pretty over-sensitive, as well as nit-picky. Have a cold one, everyone, and let’s chill!
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Next season by minutes (only counted for games that the players actually play in, which is why the total minutes are more than 200):
Dedric - 30
Grimes - 28
Vick - 24
Dotson - 23
Doke - 22
Moore - 20
KJ - 19
De Sousa - 18
Garrett - 18
McCormack - 6
Lightfoot - 6
Cunliffe - 4
Teahan - 2
Elliot - 2
Luinstra - 2
Agbaji - RS
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JayHawkFanToo said:
Agbaji indicated he had no problem red shirting since he will in all likelihood be a 4 year player and an extra year gives him a chance to possibly get a Masters as well…all paid for…
Ahhh. … I do not remember reading this…would seem to make it more likely now, for sure.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich That is an excellent prediction, although as the president of the Charlie Moore Fan Club, I was thinking it would be Charlie at 24 minutes, and Cunliffe redshirts.
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@Kcmatt7 and do we know if that vote was unanimous?
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@mayjay Are you calling me oversensative?
I saw a sign that said: Today’s forecast…just stay inside.
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@Fightsongwriter Who, me? calling someone oversensitive? I would know --it is in my “takes one to know one” catalog. It is amazing how easy it is to see that mote in someone else’s eye…
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Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They don’t lead me to that conclusion at all.
Frank Mason. Tyshawn Taylor.
See at @HighEliteMajor’s reference to Self’s comments on Vic, a player LB originally reputedly viewed as a PG prospect. LB and Self are HOF coaches. The links are to recruiting stories. Do you not see the difference?
Next, Self often plays players at other positions to round out their games and to get them on the floor with more experienced players at the position Self plans to play them at eventually.
Why does contemplating Vick at the point this year, at least swinging 1-2 the way Bill Self and Larry Brown have contemplated him stress you into inflexible thinking mode denying the realities of Bill and LB?
Vick likely would be a very effective point for certain kinds of schemes, especially for a team playing through a lot of big men, because of his stretching trey gun and because he is tall enough to make the entry pass “over the top” and the lob from wing, wing point, or point positions. Also, Vick would be ideal for long rebounding of all the treys our opponents will be taking in the trey ball era, especially against a team loaded with bigs. Finally, Vick with Moore as a credible Backup and part time tandem mate would be the best of all possible worlds. Moore could handle any short points too fast for Vick and with Vick and Moore in simultaneously it would KEEP OPPONENTS GUESSING WHICH WOULD INITIATE THE OFFENCE.
You seem to be being disputatious for no reason.
Come in. The water is fine.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jaybate-1.0 Did you see Vick’s handles last year, worse than EJ’s who was listed as a PG coming out of HS. Vick was also listed as a shooting guard by every major recruiting service. Are you saying that all the recruiting sites were lying to everyone about what position Vick played because the evidence sure doesn’t point that way.
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No, I’m saying Bill and LB think he has point guard potential and they trump the nobs you refer to.
When Bill said he wasn’t a PG he was apparently saying yet, and in any conventional sense.
Next, Vick looked frustrated part of last season. The guy clearly wants to play the point and likely came to KU at Larry’s suggestion to do so, when things got sticky in Dallas for whatever reason.
Vick is a stunning talent. Board rats have to forget this bad handles nonsense. Tyshawn, Frank, EJ all had bad handles. Handles come with development. Handles often look bad when you are playing out of position. Vick has Speed like TT. An after burner like Frank. A trey gun like Devonte. Taller than any pg we’ve had. Able to play baseline or high against a zone. Able to guard anyone on the perimeter. He mastered the 2 last season before and after he went in his funk with Self’s toughening box time and his leg dragging injury.
Vick’s weakness is not handles. It’s his focus and sustaining it. It’s his difficulty with adopting and controlling command presence to lead. Self apparently questioned all of that and dared him to become what he wasn’t, and Vick cracked for a while. Big deal. Self cracks guys all the time.
This team desperately needs Vick and he needs them.
Vick will play some point for sure. The question is how much? A lot or a little. It depends on Vick deciding if he wants to make the ultimate sacrifice and become a team leader PG between his ears, not just below the neck. Becoming a leader is very tough for some.
Vick can help the team as a domestique 2 again. But he can make it great if he were to become the point that Larry foresaw.
Vick may fail the test. He appears to be very idiosyncratic. But great talent that coincidentally would be exactly what the team needs; that kind of player has to be gambled on for the team to reach its full potential.
Self tends to take such risk.
