Moore
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I am not sure that most of you have checked out Moore’s highlights or full games? If there is one guy on next years team to get pumped about its Moore. I have watched some videos on youtube and WOW! He is really good in transition. He blows past defenders and drives to the rim fearlessly. He makes big shots through contact. He utilizes ball screens very well. He utilizes angels similar to Ellis to make shots. Some of you need to go check out his Cal tape again. I have been told that he is a small 2 guard by some folks but that is just not true! He is the real deal and from what I see will be a KU favorite once yall see him in action. Do your self a favor and go check him out! Its worth the watch.
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This is a strange hill that you’ve picked to die on.
Some folks being Bill Self? Self said he isn’t really a PG yet.
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@BShark Bill Self would have said Simmons was not a point guard too. He would have played him as a stretch 4 because that is what he does. He also said our team was soft. He says things to motivate players and as Malik Newman said “he knows the right buttons to push”. If you go watch film you would see that he is indeed a PG.
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@Statmachine I’ve watched Moore extensively and think he isn’t much better than Naadir Tharpe.
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NaadirTharpe still started at KU as a PG for a season right?
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Tharpe was TERRIBLE. The worst starting PG I can ever remember for KU. I would have played Mason as a FR over him.
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Moore had two games in Italy with little ball distribution, then two games with decent assists – 6 assists in 17 minutes, and 6 assists in 16 minutes. He only averaged 3.5 assists per game – which is about what he did in Italy (3.7).
To moderate this, aren’t we just asking him to be a decent guy off the bench?
The worst part about Tharpe was that he was a rain-cloud pouter who provided negative leadership. A guy we took after we (thankfully) missed on Josiah Turner. Even as bad as he was, it still ended up better than Turner.
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And that is perfectly fine BUT he can work with our FR PG when coach Self is unavailable. Show our new PG the playbook, show him where everyone on the court needs to be, how Self wants things done. He will be great for the program and a suitable substitute for our starting PG or even start if need be?
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HighEliteMajor said:
Moore had two games in Italy with little ball distribution, then two games with decent assists – 6 assists in 17 minutes, and 6 assists in 16 minutes. He only averaged 3.5 assists per game – which is about what he did in Italy (3.7).
To moderate this, aren’t we just asking him to be a decent guy off the bench?
I think he can be a decent player off the bench. I think that’s his role. Dotson starts.
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Statmachine said:
And that is perfectly fine BUT he can work with our FR PG when coach Self is unavailable. Show our new PG the playbook, show him where everyone on the court needs to be, how Self wants things done. He will be great for the program and a suitable substitute for our starting PG or even start if need be?
This is a fine take, the first post made it seem like you thought he was going to be first team AA or something.
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When I saw him play as a senior in Chicago, I knew nothing of his reputation, but just my eye test, I was like wow, this kid stands out on the floor.
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I got to see Charlie in a camp for a couple of days last summer. He is an anti-tharpe personality wise and hung out with the team when they had free time and was eager to help the kids. That seems trivial I know but each year I keep an eye on how the guys get along and how they participate in the camp. Last year Billy was standoffish and spent more time on his phone then anything else for example. Not that I took that as an indicator of future problems, more that it showed a lack of interest in bonding with his teammates something I rarely see so it stood out.
I can’t get a true judgment of skills of course but Moore’s ball handling sharp and very fast and he looks pretty nimble laterally. I agree with the previous poster that HCBS calling Charlie not a point guard right now was probably more motivational than accurate. He’s quick enough I am looking forward to seeing how he buys into and plays D which we all know is the ticket to playing time with Self.
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Self wants his PG’s to control pace and get teammates involved. Moore is a score first guy that primarily plays up tempo. That’s not really a match for the type of guy Self generally has at the point.
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@Kubie Yeah I’ve heard nothing to indicate Moore is a bad kid. Definitely didn’t compare him to Tharpe in that way. His D was really bad at Cal, but of course Self will want him to try and defend. His size might be an issue there.
@justanotherfan Exactly. I’ve been harping on that lately though saying chucker instead of score first. Score first is probably more polite heh.
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I think Moore is a great piece for the team. He is a high end backup PG that I hope never starts. But at the very least he is capable enough to push the younger more talented PGs we have coming in. He is good enough that Self can use him to prove a point if the younger guys aren’t doing what he asks. I actually think he is a perfect fit in a backup role. I expect him to grad transfer when the time comes, but I am happy he is on the team. I expect him to be very important to our early season success, while slowly taking a lesser role as the season goes on.
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Is Moore the next Mason? Next Devonté? (For those that have seen enough tape of Moore), I don’t think I’ve seen enough to judge yet.
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@Ralster No. His AST/TO ratio in his FR year was not comparable to any season of Frank or Devonte. Also his game is different from them. He takes a lot of shots and isn’t as athletic as Frank.
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Yeah… I don’t want to judge him yet either. And we never know what a player will do once given PT. He might just end up being a find like Frank and Devonte!
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@BShark true in the past he has been a shoot first guy. What we, or at least I, don’t know is if that was the expectation and he did what he was asked. If that is the case perhaps if asked to be a pass first guard he will once more do what is asked of him.
Too soon to tell and mostly I hope he does the job well enough we don’t end up with a 40 minute a game point guard again.
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@Kubie good pt!
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So he’s basically a poor man’s Trae Young is what I’m gathering?
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chriz said:
So he’s basically a poor man’s Trae Young is what I’m gathering?
Go down a notch to homeless man’s Trae Young and I don’t think that’s too far off.
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@Kubie Self has had him for a year compared to his entire basketball life beforehand. I’ll be very interested to see if Self has tried to change his game though.
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Moore came with some hype from USC(?). I thought many had Moore pegged as the next pg after DG. It seems most on this board simply sees him as a solid backup pg to Dotson. We shall see exactly how quickly Dotson picks up the most important role in a fairly complex offense. I could see Moore buying Dotson some time to learn Self’s system. We all know Self will baptize Dotson with fire during the pre-season. Dotson seems to fit Self’s pg mold and Moore will simply be ready to supplement Dotson.
I will be curious to see where Dotson is as a pg when the first conference game rolls around. But, Self will rely on Grimes and Langford(?) to take some of the ball handling from Dotson. Let’s hope Dotson comes in and learns immediately, and becomes a key piece to the offense. We will also see much more inside play too with our 4 and 5 too than last year. Doke saw a lot, but not nearly enough. The 4 is going to be another key to the offense. I hope Silvio and KandDLawson will be a huge threat at the 4. Our 4 was a non-factor or even present. This last year it was 1,2,3, and 5. We had 5 players but we had no 4 presence at all.
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The game has changed.
There are no short treys in the Carney against the Nike-EST teams anymore.
No more running and jumping like young men flying off trampolines to score amazing dunks and banks. The days of Dr. J have gone to the same ash heap as the 2-hand set shot and the mid range J.
Using athleticism to create short treys and impact plays is the old way to play.
Athleticism is now about adding range to 40% accuracy beyond the semicircle.
Conference titles after 14 don’t matter anymore. The record is broken. Now it’s about playing for rings in a Carney of apparent asymmetries.
You can go as far as a two seed, as you can as a 1 seed, if you are loaded with trey guns and 2 bigs that can drain treys too.
But no rings for driving, pirouetting, leaping athleticism.
Athleticism without a trey is like a day without sunshine.
Is Moore a 40% 3pt shooter with up to 28 feet range?
Can he place the pass to the hands at the optimal position to go up for three?
No more lobbing jams either. Too low of a percentage.
Only passes to wide open dunks.
And to wide open treys.
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Balance between treys and twos?
We don’t need no stinking balance.
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North Carolina literally won the title last year with a very average three point shooting team.
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@BShark Ya, I was proud to actually see a Roy team actually win a grinder with rebounding, toughness, and D, and this despite Justin Jackson literally almost shooting his own team outta the gym. He jacked up some of the worst looking 3atts Ive ever seen. Yet UNC won despite him (NC game, but JJ certainly helped them get there). It didn’t even get a Roy-coat-unfurl/toss…
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@BShark That was two years ago, ‘Nova won last year. This year it’s the Hawks to lose! Game on! …damn it’s going to be a long off season.
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I might add from my earlier post that Garrett isn’t too bad either. I think he will make a huge improvement into next year. Garrett handled the ball and his first year should provide some momentum for next season. Look for Garrett to become a taller and maybe more versatile Aaron Miles in the upcoming season. Garrett is such a quiet, fundamental, and steady contributor for this team.
Also, a correction to my earlier post. I realized he transferred from Cal not USC…
I also went back to review his time at Cal. He’s a little like DG.
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Why Garrett played over Cunliffe is like a litmus test for understanding basketball.
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DMac is a freakin’ man-child…CRAP, he’s gonna be a beast. If we keep Doke for 1 more yr, we will have the most dominate inside presence of CBB.
The one thing that jumps out to me is his short game. He’s not bad 6-7 feet from the rim. He’s got a nice touch away from the rim.
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Moore’s game seems more Frank M than Devonte G. Finishes well at the rim with either hand, using his body to create or get into space. His game also seems more drive to shoot than drive to pass. That was early FM too. What he seems to do better maybe than either of them is to hit the runner. Of course, feel like we just watched his every scoring play from the year. Any other types of highlights? No assists?
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Ochai reminds me of KLangford. I still think, no disrespect to OA at all, but a redshirt would allow him to adjust and come in his second season as maybe one of the most dominate players in bball. I think a redshirt would make him even better and more hungry. We just don’t quite need him. I just don’t see him sniffing the court if we get RLangford. Again, NOTHING against OA at ALL. Either way he’ll be good, but let’s face it, most of these recruits are playing against average to slightly below average competition accept on the AAU circuit.
Notice in the dunk drill at the line? He has to take a power dribble. To me, this is a bad habit that many college players create and it carries over into games. He has to grab, pivot, two step, and jam. The ball will be slapped out of his hand or poked everytime in the lane if he tries that in at the D1 level. I get it, it’s a drill, but it creates mental habits that will likely translate into games. He’s good, and will be a great player at the next level. I’d like to see him consider a RS, no real reason, KU will be stacked if we land Langford.
See the inbound play to OA? Much like a Self play…haha
Love the kid in the KU sweatshirt too.
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@truehawk93 I think I was more impressed with QG passing highlights than Devon’s
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Bwag said:
@truehawk93 I think I was more impressed with QG passing highlights than Devon’s
Most definitely…QG is a 6-4,5 pg. He’s a humble Kobe Bryant caliber player…shhhh…don’t tell him that, but something tells me he can handle the comparison.
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One request for all these ELITE players…would someone please teach these kids to use the right hands and legs on a layup. This is one of the most glaring deficiencies of many of these top players. I learned and it was tough for the longest time, because it’s not dominate or natural. But it’s the right thing.
Use the Left hand, and right foot for a LEFT hand lay-up.
Use the Right hand, and Left foot for a Right hand lay-up.
I know…it’s tough and awkward, but much like a switch hitter or a South paw to use the Right hand…I remember learning as a RH pitcher, to turn toward 1st base for a 2nd base pick. It was AWKWARD, but once I learned and not step off with my right foot, and turn toward the runner or bag, my pick off ratio improved, and it looked better watching by my coaches. Remember Rocky? But when they learn and it becomes part of their game, it looks better watching, and it adds to their game. Again, if it’s not broke, don’t fix it…but just sayin.’
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Here is the thing. You are correct on the proper form of a layup, HOWEVER…
Once you play at an elite level you MUST learn to go off the wrong foot and mix up your timing or you will always get your shot blocked. These kids are playing against the best at a younger age so they are learning this also at a younger age. Also going off the “improper” leg makes it easier to jump into your defender and create contact and go shoulder to chest on a shot blocker.
If you only make layups with the “proper” legs you will be easier to guard.
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BigBad said:
Here is the thing. You are correct on the proper form of a layup, HOWEVER…
Once you play at an elite level you MUST learn to go off the wrong foot and mix up your timing or you will always get your shot blocked. These kids are playing against the best at a younger age so they are learning this also at a younger age. Also going off the “improper” leg makes it easier to jump into your defender and create contact and go shoulder to chest on a shot blocker.
If you only make layups with the “proper” legs you will be easier to guard.
BUT…if the defender is on my right side and I’m right handed? I use my right hand from the left side of defender, jumping off my right foot? Doesn’t that allow the defender to defend the ball better?
Whereas, if I use my LEFT hand, RIGHT leg/foot…ball away from the defender, who is on my right side/weak side, then use my body…I have a much better chance of an AND 1? IF I use your logic and jump right foot/leg, and use my right hand…the defender on my right side will eat the ball, not my body.
Same principle with Right hand, Left foot/leg when the defender is on my Left side…
Unless of course you’re being facetious?
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NO…Moore seems score first, pass second. Unless he has learned with DG to pass then score. He better if he expects to thrive at pg and in Self’s system. Dotson seems to be pass then score.
It’s gonna be FUN watching all the same.
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I was just thinking about an interesting player comparison. I realized the interesting styles between…
Keith Langford
Travis Releford
Wayne Selden
Ochai Agbagi
Pretty interesting when you watch the four. I don’t think OA hasn’t quite developed the outside shot that Selden and KL had, but their very interesting. I think Selden and Ochai have more power and strength. Releford and KL are similar. Just an interesting observation.
Although after watching the OA clip, he does have a nice stroke. Actually, the kid has some hops…dang…wonder what his vertical is?
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The basics are important to be sure, but @BigBad makes a great point about changing things up.
On top of that, you also have to go back to your strong hand when dealing with great shot blockers. I remember when I started playing against better shot blockers in HS and moving into college that I basically stopped shooting layups with my left hand unless it was a breakaway. Good shot blockers could reject a lefty layup with ease, but if I kept the ball in my strong hand, I could change my shot (floater, scoop, finger roll, double clutch, whatever) and still get a good attempt off, rather than an awkward half hearted flip at the basket with my off hand.
With as quick as a lot of the shotblockers now close space and get off the floor, you have to do whatever you can to disrupt their timing. Lots of kids now are learning the Eurostep, which is one way to do that, but they are also now teaching kids to keep the ball in their strong hand to finish the Eurostep off.
Additionally, at the higher levels, you always teach kids to finish by dunking when they can. As a result, you have to get them to keep the ball in their strong hand. If they are always switching to their off hand, they won’t dunk, which, for guys with an NBA future, is a bad habit to get into because NBA guys will block those layups all the time.
As a result, for a lot of kids, they don’t shoot layups with the “correct” hand once they start dunking because the teaching is to keep the ball in your strong hand to give you a chance to dunk whenever possible.
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Bwag said:
No assists?
Yeah, that’s the rub.
3.5 ast and 2.9 t/os in 29 mpg running the point at Cal.
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truehawk93 said:
Bwag said:
@truehawk93 I think I was more impressed with QG passing highlights than Devon’s
Most definitely…QG is a 6-4,5 pg. He’s a humble Kobe Bryant caliber player…shhhh…don’t tell him that, but something tells me he can handle the comparison.
Grimes has a fantastic feel for the game.
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@truehawk93 I expect Ochai to be a better shooter than KFreeze or Releford. Not that such a feat would be that difficult.
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Agbaji is a better shooter as a HS senior than any of the guys that you listed, @truehawk93
Now, Releford and Selden both developed quite a bit as three point shooters while at KU, so it will remain to be seen if Agbaji has enough growth in his game to develop like that over a four year period.
Langford never did develop much of a three point stroke. Never shot even 36% while at KU. I would imagine Agbaji would surpass that as a freshman given the mechanics I have seen on video from him. If I were a coach at KU, I would hope that Garrett develops to be a Langford level shooter, while I would hope that Agbaji develops to the point that Selden did (right around 40% from three by the time he is a junior). I think Agbaji’s development curve could make him a high level starter as a three or four year player. He has really impressed me with his development. Just looking back at what he was as a junior until now is an incredible thing to watch.
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Dunking is different than a layup. An athletic blocker will pin your layup almost 100% of the time. A fast break dunk is not a layup. A fast break dunk or flush is much more efficient and almost impossible to block.
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@truehawk93 Agbagi has interesting driving skills - he uses his body perfectly going to the hoop. That’s very impressive to me. It took Devonte 4 years to learn to use his shoulder to create space, and this kid does it every time he drives. He is officially on my future Jayhawk pick to click list. He might not even smell more than 2 minutes, or he might red shirt, but once this kid starts getting minutes in future years, I think he ends up making a very good impact on our program.
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GOD how I wish the season were starting sooner… all this back and forth has me drooling with a bad case of basketball jones
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Just about 4 months to late night…
