Moore
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HighEliteMajor said:
Moore had two games in Italy with little ball distribution, then two games with decent assists – 6 assists in 17 minutes, and 6 assists in 16 minutes. He only averaged 3.5 assists per game – which is about what he did in Italy (3.7).
To moderate this, aren’t we just asking him to be a decent guy off the bench?
I think he can be a decent player off the bench. I think that’s his role. Dotson starts.
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Statmachine said:
And that is perfectly fine BUT he can work with our FR PG when coach Self is unavailable. Show our new PG the playbook, show him where everyone on the court needs to be, how Self wants things done. He will be great for the program and a suitable substitute for our starting PG or even start if need be?
This is a fine take, the first post made it seem like you thought he was going to be first team AA or something.
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When I saw him play as a senior in Chicago, I knew nothing of his reputation, but just my eye test, I was like wow, this kid stands out on the floor.
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I got to see Charlie in a camp for a couple of days last summer. He is an anti-tharpe personality wise and hung out with the team when they had free time and was eager to help the kids. That seems trivial I know but each year I keep an eye on how the guys get along and how they participate in the camp. Last year Billy was standoffish and spent more time on his phone then anything else for example. Not that I took that as an indicator of future problems, more that it showed a lack of interest in bonding with his teammates something I rarely see so it stood out.
I can’t get a true judgment of skills of course but Moore’s ball handling sharp and very fast and he looks pretty nimble laterally. I agree with the previous poster that HCBS calling Charlie not a point guard right now was probably more motivational than accurate. He’s quick enough I am looking forward to seeing how he buys into and plays D which we all know is the ticket to playing time with Self.
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Self wants his PG’s to control pace and get teammates involved. Moore is a score first guy that primarily plays up tempo. That’s not really a match for the type of guy Self generally has at the point.
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@Kubie Yeah I’ve heard nothing to indicate Moore is a bad kid. Definitely didn’t compare him to Tharpe in that way. His D was really bad at Cal, but of course Self will want him to try and defend. His size might be an issue there.
@justanotherfan Exactly. I’ve been harping on that lately though saying chucker instead of score first. Score first is probably more polite heh.
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I think Moore is a great piece for the team. He is a high end backup PG that I hope never starts. But at the very least he is capable enough to push the younger more talented PGs we have coming in. He is good enough that Self can use him to prove a point if the younger guys aren’t doing what he asks. I actually think he is a perfect fit in a backup role. I expect him to grad transfer when the time comes, but I am happy he is on the team. I expect him to be very important to our early season success, while slowly taking a lesser role as the season goes on.
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Is Moore the next Mason? Next Devonté? (For those that have seen enough tape of Moore), I don’t think I’ve seen enough to judge yet.
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@Ralster No. His AST/TO ratio in his FR year was not comparable to any season of Frank or Devonte. Also his game is different from them. He takes a lot of shots and isn’t as athletic as Frank.
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Yeah… I don’t want to judge him yet either. And we never know what a player will do once given PT. He might just end up being a find like Frank and Devonte!
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@BShark true in the past he has been a shoot first guy. What we, or at least I, don’t know is if that was the expectation and he did what he was asked. If that is the case perhaps if asked to be a pass first guard he will once more do what is asked of him.
Too soon to tell and mostly I hope he does the job well enough we don’t end up with a 40 minute a game point guard again.
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@Kubie good pt!
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So he’s basically a poor man’s Trae Young is what I’m gathering?
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chriz said:
So he’s basically a poor man’s Trae Young is what I’m gathering?
Go down a notch to homeless man’s Trae Young and I don’t think that’s too far off.
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@Kubie Self has had him for a year compared to his entire basketball life beforehand. I’ll be very interested to see if Self has tried to change his game though.
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Moore came with some hype from USC(?). I thought many had Moore pegged as the next pg after DG. It seems most on this board simply sees him as a solid backup pg to Dotson. We shall see exactly how quickly Dotson picks up the most important role in a fairly complex offense. I could see Moore buying Dotson some time to learn Self’s system. We all know Self will baptize Dotson with fire during the pre-season. Dotson seems to fit Self’s pg mold and Moore will simply be ready to supplement Dotson.
I will be curious to see where Dotson is as a pg when the first conference game rolls around. But, Self will rely on Grimes and Langford(?) to take some of the ball handling from Dotson. Let’s hope Dotson comes in and learns immediately, and becomes a key piece to the offense. We will also see much more inside play too with our 4 and 5 too than last year. Doke saw a lot, but not nearly enough. The 4 is going to be another key to the offense. I hope Silvio and KandDLawson will be a huge threat at the 4. Our 4 was a non-factor or even present. This last year it was 1,2,3, and 5. We had 5 players but we had no 4 presence at all.
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The game has changed.
There are no short treys in the Carney against the Nike-EST teams anymore.
No more running and jumping like young men flying off trampolines to score amazing dunks and banks. The days of Dr. J have gone to the same ash heap as the 2-hand set shot and the mid range J.
Using athleticism to create short treys and impact plays is the old way to play.
Athleticism is now about adding range to 40% accuracy beyond the semicircle.
Conference titles after 14 don’t matter anymore. The record is broken. Now it’s about playing for rings in a Carney of apparent asymmetries.
You can go as far as a two seed, as you can as a 1 seed, if you are loaded with trey guns and 2 bigs that can drain treys too.
But no rings for driving, pirouetting, leaping athleticism.
Athleticism without a trey is like a day without sunshine.
Is Moore a 40% 3pt shooter with up to 28 feet range?
Can he place the pass to the hands at the optimal position to go up for three?
No more lobbing jams either. Too low of a percentage.
Only passes to wide open dunks.
And to wide open treys.
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Balance between treys and twos?
We don’t need no stinking balance.
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North Carolina literally won the title last year with a very average three point shooting team.
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@BShark Ya, I was proud to actually see a Roy team actually win a grinder with rebounding, toughness, and D, and this despite Justin Jackson literally almost shooting his own team outta the gym. He jacked up some of the worst looking 3atts Ive ever seen. Yet UNC won despite him (NC game, but JJ certainly helped them get there). It didn’t even get a Roy-coat-unfurl/toss…
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@BShark That was two years ago, ‘Nova won last year. This year it’s the Hawks to lose! Game on! …damn it’s going to be a long off season.
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I might add from my earlier post that Garrett isn’t too bad either. I think he will make a huge improvement into next year. Garrett handled the ball and his first year should provide some momentum for next season. Look for Garrett to become a taller and maybe more versatile Aaron Miles in the upcoming season. Garrett is such a quiet, fundamental, and steady contributor for this team.
Also, a correction to my earlier post. I realized he transferred from Cal not USC…
I also went back to review his time at Cal. He’s a little like DG.
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Why Garrett played over Cunliffe is like a litmus test for understanding basketball.
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DMac is a freakin’ man-child…CRAP, he’s gonna be a beast. If we keep Doke for 1 more yr, we will have the most dominate inside presence of CBB.
The one thing that jumps out to me is his short game. He’s not bad 6-7 feet from the rim. He’s got a nice touch away from the rim.
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Moore’s game seems more Frank M than Devonte G. Finishes well at the rim with either hand, using his body to create or get into space. His game also seems more drive to shoot than drive to pass. That was early FM too. What he seems to do better maybe than either of them is to hit the runner. Of course, feel like we just watched his every scoring play from the year. Any other types of highlights? No assists?
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Ochai reminds me of KLangford. I still think, no disrespect to OA at all, but a redshirt would allow him to adjust and come in his second season as maybe one of the most dominate players in bball. I think a redshirt would make him even better and more hungry. We just don’t quite need him. I just don’t see him sniffing the court if we get RLangford. Again, NOTHING against OA at ALL. Either way he’ll be good, but let’s face it, most of these recruits are playing against average to slightly below average competition accept on the AAU circuit.
Notice in the dunk drill at the line? He has to take a power dribble. To me, this is a bad habit that many college players create and it carries over into games. He has to grab, pivot, two step, and jam. The ball will be slapped out of his hand or poked everytime in the lane if he tries that in at the D1 level. I get it, it’s a drill, but it creates mental habits that will likely translate into games. He’s good, and will be a great player at the next level. I’d like to see him consider a RS, no real reason, KU will be stacked if we land Langford.
See the inbound play to OA? Much like a Self play…haha
Love the kid in the KU sweatshirt too.
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@truehawk93 I think I was more impressed with QG passing highlights than Devon’s
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Bwag said:
@truehawk93 I think I was more impressed with QG passing highlights than Devon’s
Most definitely…QG is a 6-4,5 pg. He’s a humble Kobe Bryant caliber player…shhhh…don’t tell him that, but something tells me he can handle the comparison.
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One request for all these ELITE players…would someone please teach these kids to use the right hands and legs on a layup. This is one of the most glaring deficiencies of many of these top players. I learned and it was tough for the longest time, because it’s not dominate or natural. But it’s the right thing.
Use the Left hand, and right foot for a LEFT hand lay-up.
Use the Right hand, and Left foot for a Right hand lay-up.
I know…it’s tough and awkward, but much like a switch hitter or a South paw to use the Right hand…I remember learning as a RH pitcher, to turn toward 1st base for a 2nd base pick. It was AWKWARD, but once I learned and not step off with my right foot, and turn toward the runner or bag, my pick off ratio improved, and it looked better watching by my coaches. Remember Rocky? But when they learn and it becomes part of their game, it looks better watching, and it adds to their game. Again, if it’s not broke, don’t fix it…but just sayin.’
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Here is the thing. You are correct on the proper form of a layup, HOWEVER…
Once you play at an elite level you MUST learn to go off the wrong foot and mix up your timing or you will always get your shot blocked. These kids are playing against the best at a younger age so they are learning this also at a younger age. Also going off the “improper” leg makes it easier to jump into your defender and create contact and go shoulder to chest on a shot blocker.
If you only make layups with the “proper” legs you will be easier to guard.
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BigBad said:
Here is the thing. You are correct on the proper form of a layup, HOWEVER…
Once you play at an elite level you MUST learn to go off the wrong foot and mix up your timing or you will always get your shot blocked. These kids are playing against the best at a younger age so they are learning this also at a younger age. Also going off the “improper” leg makes it easier to jump into your defender and create contact and go shoulder to chest on a shot blocker.
If you only make layups with the “proper” legs you will be easier to guard.
BUT…if the defender is on my right side and I’m right handed? I use my right hand from the left side of defender, jumping off my right foot? Doesn’t that allow the defender to defend the ball better?
Whereas, if I use my LEFT hand, RIGHT leg/foot…ball away from the defender, who is on my right side/weak side, then use my body…I have a much better chance of an AND 1? IF I use your logic and jump right foot/leg, and use my right hand…the defender on my right side will eat the ball, not my body.
Same principle with Right hand, Left foot/leg when the defender is on my Left side…
Unless of course you’re being facetious?
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NO…Moore seems score first, pass second. Unless he has learned with DG to pass then score. He better if he expects to thrive at pg and in Self’s system. Dotson seems to be pass then score.
It’s gonna be FUN watching all the same.
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I was just thinking about an interesting player comparison. I realized the interesting styles between…
Keith Langford
Travis Releford
Wayne Selden
Ochai Agbagi
Pretty interesting when you watch the four. I don’t think OA hasn’t quite developed the outside shot that Selden and KL had, but their very interesting. I think Selden and Ochai have more power and strength. Releford and KL are similar. Just an interesting observation.
Although after watching the OA clip, he does have a nice stroke. Actually, the kid has some hops…dang…wonder what his vertical is?
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The basics are important to be sure, but @BigBad makes a great point about changing things up.
On top of that, you also have to go back to your strong hand when dealing with great shot blockers. I remember when I started playing against better shot blockers in HS and moving into college that I basically stopped shooting layups with my left hand unless it was a breakaway. Good shot blockers could reject a lefty layup with ease, but if I kept the ball in my strong hand, I could change my shot (floater, scoop, finger roll, double clutch, whatever) and still get a good attempt off, rather than an awkward half hearted flip at the basket with my off hand.
With as quick as a lot of the shotblockers now close space and get off the floor, you have to do whatever you can to disrupt their timing. Lots of kids now are learning the Eurostep, which is one way to do that, but they are also now teaching kids to keep the ball in their strong hand to finish the Eurostep off.
Additionally, at the higher levels, you always teach kids to finish by dunking when they can. As a result, you have to get them to keep the ball in their strong hand. If they are always switching to their off hand, they won’t dunk, which, for guys with an NBA future, is a bad habit to get into because NBA guys will block those layups all the time.
As a result, for a lot of kids, they don’t shoot layups with the “correct” hand once they start dunking because the teaching is to keep the ball in your strong hand to give you a chance to dunk whenever possible.
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Bwag said:
No assists?
Yeah, that’s the rub.
3.5 ast and 2.9 t/os in 29 mpg running the point at Cal.
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truehawk93 said:
Bwag said:
@truehawk93 I think I was more impressed with QG passing highlights than Devon’s
Most definitely…QG is a 6-4,5 pg. He’s a humble Kobe Bryant caliber player…shhhh…don’t tell him that, but something tells me he can handle the comparison.
Grimes has a fantastic feel for the game.
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@truehawk93 I expect Ochai to be a better shooter than KFreeze or Releford. Not that such a feat would be that difficult.
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Agbaji is a better shooter as a HS senior than any of the guys that you listed, @truehawk93
Now, Releford and Selden both developed quite a bit as three point shooters while at KU, so it will remain to be seen if Agbaji has enough growth in his game to develop like that over a four year period.
Langford never did develop much of a three point stroke. Never shot even 36% while at KU. I would imagine Agbaji would surpass that as a freshman given the mechanics I have seen on video from him. If I were a coach at KU, I would hope that Garrett develops to be a Langford level shooter, while I would hope that Agbaji develops to the point that Selden did (right around 40% from three by the time he is a junior). I think Agbaji’s development curve could make him a high level starter as a three or four year player. He has really impressed me with his development. Just looking back at what he was as a junior until now is an incredible thing to watch.
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Dunking is different than a layup. An athletic blocker will pin your layup almost 100% of the time. A fast break dunk is not a layup. A fast break dunk or flush is much more efficient and almost impossible to block.
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@truehawk93 Agbagi has interesting driving skills - he uses his body perfectly going to the hoop. That’s very impressive to me. It took Devonte 4 years to learn to use his shoulder to create space, and this kid does it every time he drives. He is officially on my future Jayhawk pick to click list. He might not even smell more than 2 minutes, or he might red shirt, but once this kid starts getting minutes in future years, I think he ends up making a very good impact on our program.
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GOD how I wish the season were starting sooner… all this back and forth has me drooling with a bad case of basketball jones
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Just about 4 months to late night…
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I haven’t even watched the feeds, but from the beginning my hunch has been Self sees a guy in Moore with the potential to play like the guy Larry Brown sent us for the World University Games. I doubt he is there yet after his time at Cal, but I think that is the kind of player Self hopes to develop Moore into.
Frank was shooting guard going to Towson State when he took him and saw the inner point guard that did not really bear PG fruit till his junior season. Frank was a most athlete with a great shooting eye and an afterburner like nobody’s business. But his ball handling skills and shoot/pass judgements were suspect his first two seasons.
Devonte was a born point guard that was kind of slight and gentle. It took him a season and a half for Self to let the inner lion out from the shooting guard position; then after a full season of roaring his junior year, and running the point to rest Frank at times, the born PG and the inner lion converged his senior season at the point.
Self has done the stuff too many times with too many successes to be pessimistic about Moore and his lack of a fifth star.
The key thing to remember is that Frank and Devonte REALLY benefitted from just one summer of playing with that terrific little fire plug of Larry’s down at SMU. Now, that guy was a point guard from the Dean, Brown, Self breed of point guards!!!
I suspect Moore is going to adapt pretty well to what Self wants out of him at the point.
But outside shooters are born and refined, not made.
So: the big question is this: is there room in the game these days for a point guard that cannot pot the triceratop at 40%, or higher?
By this I do NOT mean can the guy start and lead KU to a lot of wins and conference title. Put enough bigs and 5-star wings, so that all he has to do is distribute, push and guard, and no PG needs to be a Frank, or Devonte, from down town.
But to go to the Final Four and have a prayer of winning with all of these long and strongs at the 3, 4 and 5, sooner, or later, the team has to beat a 3-point offense like KU had last season, or a three point offense on steroids, like Nova had last season. The encounter usually comes from the Elite Eight on. And for those kinds of teams, your point guard is a serious weakness, if he cannot pot the triceratop. There are just too many possessions when a fine opposing team’s momentum has to be dagger with a trey, or possessions down the stretch, where a gap has to be closed with a trey, or a trey has to be answered with a trey, and “running the stuff” won’t get a three point look quickly enough.
But worst of all, EVERY coach in America is going to be trying to emulate Jay Wright’s zone, not just his volume trey shooting. And that zoning is going to be absolutely destabilizing to any team with a point guard that can’t drain the trey >40%.
Why?
Because it is so easy with a match up zone to turn things into a 5 on 4 game, when all a point guard can do is pass, or drive.
First, no-one cares if a CST point guard wearing adidas treads can drive into the seams of a zone in the EST Carney, because he is going to get the hell fouled out of him and never get a call.
Second, a PG that can’t pot the triceratop is a guy that a match up zone can ignore and stretch to help on someone that can.
It is hard to believe how fortunate KU has been to have two consecutive > 40% PGs. It is just the best of all possible worlds for the Small Ball Era.
To conclude, I am not really even a little worried about Moore being a fine point guard able to run the stuff Self’s way.
What I’m concerned about is whether he can be a serious threat from the trey stripe, when there isn’t any other way to manage games than to take and make treys?
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Frank’s SO and JR numbers were very similar, almost identical.
Nice officiating conspiracy thrown in for good measure.
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BShark said:
Frank’s SO and JR numbers were very similar, almost identical.
Nice officiating conspiracy thrown in for good measure.
Howling!
Let me play the straight man.
Question: Why EXACTLY might it PROVE SOMETHING, if they were similar, or identical? Frank was a vastly better player the second half of his junior year than he was any time during his sophomore year. Do you not understand that Frank’s role change drastically from sophomore to junior year, and quite a bit from junior to senior season, too. Don’t you think the changing rosters had an impact on Frank’s numbers and on the roles Frank was assigned by Self? If not, why not?
Next…
THERE. APPEAR. NO. CONSPIRACIES. IN. D1. IMHO.
NONE. HAVE. BEEN. PROVEN. THAT. I. CAN. RECALL.
YOU, @BSHARK, APPEAR POSSIBLY ADDICTED TO IMPUTING CONSPIRACY TO THINGS
I TRY UNSUCCESSFULLY TO HELP YOU GET THIS CONSPIRACY IMPUTATION MONKEY REGARDING ME OFF YOUR BACK.
CONSPIRACIES ARE APPARENTLY FOR SUCKERS.
AND MISCHARACTERIZATIONS OF OTHERS WITH “CONSPIRACY” AND “CONSPIRACY THEORY” APPEAR TO HAVE LOST THEIR SMEAR POWER.
ONE NOW HAS TO CALL SOMEONE A “TRUMPER”, OR A “COLLUDER WITH PUTIN AND RUSSIA,” OR MY NEW FAVORITE–“AN APPEASER OF NORTH KOREA.”
OF COURSE, I’M NONE OF THOSE, AND I DON’T BELIEVE IN CONSPIRACIES AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT CONSPIRACIES IN D1 EITHER.
CONSPIRACIES IN D1 ARE APPARENTLY FOR SUCKERS…
ROCK CHALK!
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@jaybate-1.0 33% from 3 is virtually the same as 50% from the 2. 40% from 3 calculates out to 60% from 2. We had to shoot 40 north last year because we couldn’t get a rebound to save our lives. If Charlie shoots 35% from 3, we’re in the Final Four. I love Charlie- his game gives every rec league wanna be hope. Talk about utilizing what you have…Charlie is just nosing for the basket every time. The backboard angles he uses show his gym rat bonafides, and the guy is simply nails in open space. I think the kid is special, and if we need for him to make 40%, he’ll manage.
I don’t think we’ll see Dedric at the 3. Now KJ Lawson at the 3 is a possibility.
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Charlie understands spacing and timing on his drive finishes. That’s a tough thing to teach players. His freshman year highlights from Cal show how he finishes in a crowd in the Pac 12.
I have high hopes for Charlie! He is bound to get some decent PT because of his experience alone.
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@KUSTEVE jethros back
