"We don't have anybody that can guard him"
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@dylans This has been the toughest season to not try peaking over the horizon. I’ve had to remind myself several times this season that I just enjoy the sunset in front of us.
I hope Vick and Malik both stay. I just find it unlikely that either of them come back. No matter what, there will be a very deep bench next season. Regardless of how the backcourt situation shakes out by June.
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@dylans I’m w/you. I’m not done here, yet.
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Charlie Moore is a stud! I think he will surprise a lot of us next season. I checked his Freshman record and he averaged 12.2ppg and 3.5spg. Aside from all of his Cal freshman accolades he played against 8 of ESPN’s top 25 in 16-17. In those contests he averaged 29.25 mpg, 10.3 ppg, and 3.3 apg against top 25 competition that year. He has practiced against Graham all year, learned Coach Self’s system, and has worked with Hudy on his weaknesses all year. He is going to be primed for a BIG year! It took both Frank and Devonte until their JR year to average Moore’s freshman numbers. With the additional year of coaching and conditioning he is getting I think its safe to say he actually makes a small jump in numbers. If Self uses his preferred method of using 2 ball handlers Moore and Dotson will share the PG duties similar to Graham and Mason. Add in Doke, Lawson, and your best 3pt shooter and you have a nightmare for opposing coaches/teams! If Newman and Vick both return we will be in a heated debate ALL summer long on our rotation! That should be fun lol!
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Charlie Moore’s PER was 13.6 last year. That’s lower then every player on this years team except Sam Cunliffe.
His usage (Almost 27%) inflated his stats. He was not an efficient scorer. His Effective shooting % would be lower then any rotation player. His turnover % would also be higher then any guard on the team.
He’s got a ways to go, he played on a bad team at Cal and was forced into a situation where they needed him to shoulder a big role. Some of his numbers can be attributed to situation and lack of experience.
I think coming to KU was a big step up for him but he’ll get there in time. He has a scorer’s mentality and has good vision. He had some big games at Cal so there’s some intrigue he can become a good player here. He should be in the bench rotation next year
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Self has his “perfect storm” in the sense that he has his ideal 2 point guard line up, he can run his hi low offense, he should have depth at every position, and he has a mix of seniority and talent to work with. I am crossing my fingers that the guys that should stay remain at KU.
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I’m not expecting Doke back. Didn’t he say he was staying 1 maybe 2? He’s shown enough to get drafted. Does he need the money?
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@approxinfinity 2 years and assess I think.
@Statmachine @BeddieKU23 I would be surprised if Moore even came close to matching his Cal numbers in a season at KU ever, let alone next year. He, like Cunliffe was insurance. Notice he didn’t scare off Dotson or Grimes. I wish him nothing but the best in his time at KU but I think he is a bad fit for Self. Also Moore may have played in a bigger league than the Lawsons but he played for a wet napkin of a coach. Tubby might be abrasive at this point he he could still coach. I think like Beddie he is a bench guy next year. A great option to have though. If Vick and Newman are gone maybe he sneaks into 15 minutes a game or so.
Specifically to Statmachine KU is one scholarship over for next year already. Somebody has to go.
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@approxinfinity He may be worth millions next season though. His problem is that he is such a project, NBA teams don’t want to spend millions to develop him. Would rather watch him develop on someone else’s dime. If he can continue to develop both hands though, I don’t see how he wouldn’t be a 1st round pick after next season. He’s in an especially deep draft this year. When Bagley is potentially land out of the Top 5, it is a crazy year. Especially for big men.
There is also no rush for him to go right now. He is still young. Won’t be 19 until next September. I’m sure that is what NBA scouts will tell him too.
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@Kcmatt7 I haven’t considered the depth of the draft this year. Seems the rate of improvement Doke gas exhibited should project into the NBA. Maybe you’re right and we get to keep and develop him another year. Hope so.
@BShark I think in Charlie’s case, if he wants a euro career it probably matters less how much pt you get and more who you learn from. I think playing ball at KU is more like a diploma in basketball from KU in this case. So PT is nice but doesn’t matter as much? Maybe not…
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Doke still wasn’t near any draft boards the last time I checked. However after the season we can probably expect a big update on those.
I don’t think Moore made a terrible choice coming to KU, I just don’t think much should be expected of him and especially next year. He should be around for two seasons after that though, so there is time.
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I am saying this now. You better jump on the Moore bandwagon before its gone. I remember everyone thinking Frank was an insurance policy after missing on Barber and other top PG’s in his class. Remember all of those discussions we had after Masons freshman year about how he was going to be national player of the year? Yeah, me either… Moore is made of the same mold as Graham and Mason. Because he is being coached up and made to believe he is better than his ranking. He is being told he is just as good as Graham and Mason. All of you doubters will be eating crow soon!
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Moore’s game does not look like Mason’s at all to me. After we got him I watched every Cal game he played that was available on youtube. We will see. You think he eclipses his Cal FR season stats next year @Statmachine ? I’ll take the under.
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@BShark @approxinfinity @Statmachine
Remember the Sherron factor, I’m telling you… He wouldn’t have rec’d Moore if the guy is a chump!
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Even Tharpe had nearly 9ppg 5apg. I do think he will do better than his time at cal.
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@Statmachine I thought Frank had the best point guard handles i had seen on a freshman in the Self era.
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Statmachine said:
Tharpe
Welp, going to have nightmares tonight.
mayjay said:
@BShark @approxinfinity @Statmachine
Remember the Sherron factor, I’m telling you… He wouldn’t have rec’d Moore if the guy is a chump!
I don’t think he’s a chump. I just think he’s going to take some time and I don’t think he starts until maybe his SR year. I could be wrong though.
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@approxinfinity but did you come right out and declare him a future national player of the year? When we signed Graham the year after did you get excited or was he a back up to missing on other top recruits? Everyone here is saying the same thing that was said about past pg’s when Self and company didn’t land an ESPN top 100 pg. He is not a back up or insurance plan. He is a solid contributor and the future of our program. All I am saying is that he is going to be good. Just what Coach Self wants. 2 small guards to run the show. Him and Dotson will be great together. If all things pan out then Coach Self has the 2 small guards, the footer, the hi low, the depth, talent, and the experience.
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Self has also made comments that his practise squad has out scored his starters in scrimmages all year. So it would be safe to assume that Moore is capable of leading our b team to victory over our current starting 5. Moore and the Lawsons already have chemistry. Moore can lead our b team to a victory over our current national player of the year candidate? So how is it he can lead our guys and have success against one of the top players in the country and not even start until his senior year? Not ready my ass!
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@Statmachine I thought the concetns over the PG “misses” were way overwrought. I was a fan of both Mason and Graham long before they “blossomed” but Frank’s wild drives to the rim drove me crazy for a couple of years until he figured out how to protect the ball and finish. Then he looked like a wizard who could magically move the ball through opponents’ bodies until he was at the rim. And then he pulled his second magic act–tumbling to the floor 4 to 6 times a game all season without getting hurt.
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@Statmachine I wasn’t here when we signed Mason and Graham. I was super high on Mason and it was apparent to anyone that saw Graham that he was going to be a good college player. Jerry Meyer of 247 was pimping Mason prettttty hard after the signing too, saying we got a steal. Mason was not a back-up plan either, the staff saw him and trusted their own evaluation. He moved up the priority list quickly.
As for Charlie Moore…
We will just have to wait until next season. If you don’t think he was an insurance plan though I don’t know what to tell you. Missed on many players in 2017 so Self had to take transfers. He was also immediately recruited over unlike Dedric.
I’m just being honest with what I see and hear. Sometimes I’m right and sometimes I’m wrong. Lucas did more than I ever figured he could. I did get Cunliffe and Garrett right though. Pretty sure I would have been right about Preston too but we can’t know that now of course…
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Its all good! You did just prove my point. Frank used to drive and run out of room. No dish no shot or he would get blocked or he would get a charging foul. He developed and he worked and he matured. Moore will do the same. He is not Cal Moore any more lol. His journey has began only he gets a year to learn and a year to grow before we get to see what he can do. I personally can learn quite a bit in a year if I focus. Embiid watched videos of his idol and became a similar player. Maybe just maybe Moore has added more tools to his toolbox? Guess we will see this summer?
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I listened to Charlie Moore in his postgame after dropping 38 his second game at Cal. He said all the right things for being relatively un-coached. I was impressed. You guys have got me intrigued. If you guys want more fodder, look at the list of past Mr Basketball’s in Illinois. Almost all were great college players.
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@approxinfinity Self knows a few of those guys and how good they are!
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@mayjay I reserve the right to wait on my
test. Next year
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I think Charlie develops into a pretty good college player. I don’t think he was very good his freshman year, but most players aren’t. Every player that sticks around seems to improve, sometimes dramatically, and I think Charlie will be the same. It’s not like he’s going to jump to the NBA anytime soon. His experience could come in handy with our freshmen guards next year.
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I thought this thread was about me for a sec…
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If Ellis was a 6’ pg his name would be Charlie Moore. Moore uses angles and makes big time shots close to the basket. He doesn’t dunk a lot and just uses the backboard kind of Ellis. Idk why but that is what type of player he is to me. He is going to be big time. I just think if he adds a drive and dish along with the ability to make an inlet pass to our bigs he will have all of the tools to be successful at KU.
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With the other scoring firepower we have i dont know that we will need moore to score that much. Should take pressure off him to just run the O and dime. So his stats may be worse than his frosh year but he will no doubt be a better player.
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@approxinfinity that is a filthy list. You have to go back to Sergio McClain to find the last real bust. Richmond made a mistake by leaving early.
@KUSTEVE Agree. I think he is a good solid player to have around. Jamari is one of the only guys I can think of that was around 4-5 years at KU and didn’t really develop/improve. His SO year was so promising too.
@Statmachine @Fightsongwriter Bill has said that Moore isn’t really a PG, so he will need to develop those passing traits. Grimes probably won’t run the point any next year and same for Garrett but both of those guys have really good passing/pg instincts. We could have line-ups where it’s like having 3 pgs on the floor.
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@BShark I read above your comments on Mason … could talk Mason all day long. You said, “Mason was not a back-up plan either, the staff saw him and trusted their own evaluation. He moved up the priority list quickly.”
It seemed pretty clear to me that Mason was a lower priority – it sure seemed like he was the back up plan. We had a number of offers out there to PGs. Andrew Harrison, Cat Barber, Kasey Hill, and Demetrius Jackson. There was also discusson on Roddy Peters, Stevie Clark and Rysheed Jordan.
But Harrison, Barber, and Jackson were clearly our top targets.
From the timeline, Mason didn’t commit to KU until after the main targets were off the board. Hill committed early, but Barber, Jackson, and Harrison all committed to other schools in weeks before Mason committed, and Harrison committed the week before Mason. It seems that if any of those three would have committed to KU, Mason would not have been here. We’d offered Mason, and others earlier, but you know that works – and the timeline is pretty solid there.
Mason was clearly a player KU identified, but he was not a guy we took over the higher ranked players. We also had CF already committed and only had a spot for one PG.
We did offer Mason in July. But like with many “offers”, it appears it was conditional on a few other guys. At least this is how it all seemed to line up from my perspective.
Anyway, nice to stroll down memory lane with the greatest PG in KU history. What a great set of circumstances that led him (and DG) to KU.
Man, I love 4 year players like those two (and Svi, Ellis, et. al.).
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@HighEliteMajor KU definitely ditched Cat Barber after the stealing while on campus at Louisville incident. Louisville actually put out a statement saying they were no longer recruiting him. KU did not put out a statement but KU was no longer an option for him.
Demetrius Jackson never even visited KU. KU coaches never stopped in to see him much either. It was ILL or ND leading into his SR year. KU offered that’s about it.
I would say the Harrisons were definitely top targets though. No doubt about that. Despite the fact that KU was always third in that recruitment.
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Moore is a PG and Self says all kinds of things to motivate his players. Both DG and FM averaged about half of Moore’s freshman numbers. I realize that we are not comparing apples to apples but Moore will be a 3rd year college pg. He had a pretty good year as a freshman at Cal. That was not a sample size either. It was a full year running a div 1 team that played against some high level competition. He even preformed really well against top competition. I think he even set a freshman assist record at Cal? He is going to surprise many of you. How do you like your crow cooked?
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I think Garrett will play a lot of PG. Where else would he play with all the talent in the other spots?
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If Doke can’t guard Dedric, then we’ve got a keeper.
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Statmachine said:
I think he even set a freshman assist record at Cal?
Maybe, but it’s usage rate related. He turned it over a ton too. So it’s just a product of the ball being in his hands so much. He was not an efficient player.
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mayjay said:
I think Garrett will play a lot of PG. Where else would he play with all the talent in the other spots?
Wherever Self can sneak him in.
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@BShark Don’t forget Garrett averaged a double double both junior and senior years in HS. Over 17 pts and over 10 assists both years. With Devontae taking only a few minutes off Garrett has not played it so much, and Self has plugged him in wherever, averaging 19 mpg as a wing or SF, while increasingly bringing the ball up. But next year I think he gets 25 or 30, with 20 mpg just at the point shared with Moore. He looks so good dribbling, makes <2 TOs per 40 mins, and we have seen how he can drive. As this scrawny guy gets stronger, I think he will really shine. Opponents will have to plan for defending both a 6’ PG and a 6’5" PG.
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@mayjay I’d still put money on Dotson starting at PG.
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@BShark I think Moore starts at PG at the beginning of the year. Dotson will get there, but I think he’s going to have a learning curve early on and Moore is already acclimated to high level college basketball.
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@mayjay I agree. I’ve been saying that since we signed him. He is such a smart player- his bb IQ is literally off the charts. I think he’d be more than capable.
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@KUSTEVE why does Coach never use him there?
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@Crimsonorblue22 He’s used him at the 2, the 3, and the 4. DG plays 40 minutes. When he does come out on those rare occasions, he uses Newman at the point. Maybe he feels better about Malik because of his experience. Now, just because Mayjay and I feel he should be a point guard doesn’t mean Coach agrees with us. BShark certainly doesn’t agree…lol.
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@KUSTEVE I am sure HCBS agrees with us but he won’t tell anyone and might make a different decision to avoid looking like he was listening to us.
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@KUSTEVE just think if he was going to, he would be backing dg.
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drgnslayr said:
Our post play next year is going to be sick! Heck… imagine the improvement Doke will make between now and next November!
Full on beast mode sick!
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@mayjay Exactly. Coach has us on speed dial.
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Having to watch Silo vs. Faylor…oh, the horror…
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@BShark I agree completely on Dotson. I think he’s the man at PG.
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KUSTEVE said:
@Crimsonorblue22 He’s used him at the 2, the 3, and the 4. DG plays 40 minutes. When he does come out on those rare occasions, he uses Newman at the point. Maybe he feels better about Malik because of his experience. Now, just because Mayjay and I feel he should be a point guard doesn’t mean Coach agrees with us. BShark certainly doesn’t agree…lol.
To be fair I said Garrett has good passing and pg instincts. It’s about roster construction. There is nowhere else to put Dotson but PG, it’s what he is. Moore is a 1/2 as well. Grimes and Garrett are versatile guys so you get them on the floor at w/e position 1-3 and they should be fine.
