NCAA Basketball Corruption?
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drgnslayr said:
What I will never understand… where was the DOJ when it came to the UNC bogus classes?
That should have been an obvious federal case.
Nothing.
Then… here comes this case. Perhaps this case is important because all kinds of fines can be levied?
Yeah… I smell corruption… but it isn’t just the corruption of coaches.
Whatever happened to UNC in that case?
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Sounds like pretty hyped up story and doesn’t cite a single verifiable source. FWIW, Calipari, Coach K, Roy Williams, Rick Pitino and Tom Izzo are also current Hall of Fame coaches at elite programs in addition to Coach Self. Pitino, of course, is no longer coaching having lost his job already as a result of the investigation; I believe he is suing Louisville.
When it comes to getting elite prospects, UK and Duke are way ahead if the rest. Alexander, Diallo and of course Preston are the players that could be problematic but KU dealt with them by the book and in an extremely timely manner. It waited patiently until Diallo was cleared, sat Alexander as soon as the information came out and was extremely careful to wait for Preston who never played an official game for KU. All in all, all 3 ended up being net negatives with Preston probably causing the most damaged as it caused the team to be short a critical piece.
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CBS reporting same story now too.
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I think this will be big. The Feds aren’t going to get involved and then walk away without making a lot of noise. I tend to believe that the magnitude will be what the article says.
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It’s is definitely puzzling at this point. I believe that quote “The crazy part of this business is none of the kids are free”. I think the NCAA doesn’t really care as long as it isn’t easily traceable, the FBI only cares because corporate America is now involved. The FBI isn’t gonna give a darn if a booster gives a kid money. I bet Dook and UK are sweating bullets til this comes out, as someone posted a month or so ago they are the only schools to get 3 or more top 25 guys every single year for the most part of the last 10 seasons. There have been several years where we had no one that was highly ranked. KU has seemed to be in the open about stuff involving guys like Preston, Selby, Alexander and Diallo, that in itself makes me feel better about us having a fairly good chance off being in the clear. We all have seen the east coast bias in work from the NCAA, that blind eye that they seemed to have turned may catch up with them. I once watched a documentary about Marcus Camby who played at Umass for Cal and was why the FF was vacaded. Cal himself said that they had 10 times more trouble getting him cleared because it was a small school not known for much than he has ever had getting anyone at UK, said they wanted so many more records and documents. Sadly it’s turning into what coach Pete Bell says at the end of blue chips “It ain’t about winning or losing, hell it ain’t much about basketball. It’s about Money”. I personally put some of the blame on the NBAs rule to make kids come for a year. Why? You’re telling me that if an older player is gonna get cut, one more year and he wouldn’t still blow half of his fortune.
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What about Miller and AZ? Speaking of sweating?
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8 of 16.
I would be willing to guess Kansas is one of them.
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@Blown If we are cheating on this scale to not win NCs or even get to the FF most of the time I’d be pretty pissed off.
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drgnslayr said:
What I will never understand… where was the DOJ when it came to the UNC bogus classes?
That should have been an obvious federal case.
Nothing.
Then… here comes this case. Perhaps this case is important because all kinds of fines can be levied?
Yeah… I smell corruption… but it isn’t just the corruption of coaches.
A college can set any standard they want on classes. Since the classes the athletes took were also offered to regular students it cant be called cheating.
Obviously what it is, is cheapening your college for sports. That happens everywhere. Go take a look how many duke players major in “Sociology”. You know they are sharing papers and tests.
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@BigBad This happens at every level, I know some former NAIA coaches and players, they get paid and easy classes too.
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kjayhawks said:
@BigBad This happens at every level, I know some former NAIA coaches and players, they get paid and easy classes too.
I played 2 years of junior college and after the first semester I was the only starter academically eligible. So I guess Junior Colleges are in the clear…LOL But that was back in 1992-1994
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I really don’t believe KU is involved. Had KU know about it it or was involved, it would have not waited for Preston as long as it did or spent as much money. My money would be on Kentucky and Duke which have had an inordinate number of top players. I am sure Cal and Coach rat face have made sure they are insulated and have plausible deniability. Roy Williams is a question mark and Izzo has not gotten enough top players to be part of it…but I could be wrong.
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If it’s anything like how they handled Hillary’s emails and the whole Loretta Lynch thing, everyone may get off scot free!
“Did they pay the players?”
“Yes.”
“Were they supposed to?”
“No.”
“Did they know they weren’t supposed to?”
“Yes.”
“So they’ll be prosecuted, right?”
“Nah, they were just being ridiculously irresponsible. But no biggie.”
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@Buster-1926
I don’t think so. Had KU been into the whole deal it would have known very early on that Preston was compromised and would have stopped trying to get him eligible a lot sooner than it did; it was not KU that stopped the process, Preston did. If KU suspected people associated with the program were involved it would have conducted a more private investigation.
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Hmmm. What about JJ? Or Bragg? Or Wiggins? Or Cliff? Or Selby? Or Newman? Or Embiid? Or Doke?
All it takes is one assistant coach, an adidas rep, and our head coach looking the other way.
But I truly 100% would be floored if Self was even the least bit complicit. Would be wholly out of character.
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Didn’t start til 2015
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@Blown I’ll guess 7 of 16. Xavier, Auburn, Duke, UNC, Michigan State, Ohio State and Arizona
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Could this “scandal,” if it were to occur, focus on schools in states that were targeted for regime change by the two warring factions in Washington?
DOJ and FBI are involved.
The Nunes Memo has given us an indication of how politicized elements of DOJ and FBI have become.
Think about the schools involved so far, and the states they are located in.
Can you imagine either side in Washington benefitting from regime change in those states triggered by regime change at those universities?
Major athletic department scandals often lead to regime change in the athletic department and the university.
The university is often one of the largest economic entities in a state.
Cui bono?
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I don’t know why anyone would think we are immune. The shoe company money is out there. Maybe a coach does not have to be directly involved. Maybe it’s willful blindness. Maybe it’s an assistant coach that knows something. I don’t know. But some of those guys…Selby, Cliff, JJ, Wigs, …all are potential to get us in trouble. I am worried for the sport (not just KU) that I love.
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OK. seriously who here whole heartedly and sincerely believes that this mess will NOT touch KU in some form or another?- - I just feels this goes to far - – to deep NOT to effect us in some sort of way , whether it be a very simple minor to the extreme un GODLY other way - - which by the way I don’t think will happen- -BUT I do feel we will be effected in some sort of way with this. - -I was reading and an article states that if I remember right that as many as 50 colleges could/would be effected.
I realize yes there are other HOF Coaches and I DO feel that good ol Cal could be in a world of dog doo - - and even good ol Roy - -but I also feel even though maybe not directly that our Coaching staff possibly not Bill directly but someone on the staff might of just did a little something -something. - -what a mess.
I agree with another poster here I don’t know why any one of us feels that we are above something - the innocence these things get so detailed - -so involved. - -Hell you could do something wrong without truthfully even realizing you had done something wrong.
I just feel that when this is all said and done - - don’t be surprised if our name isn’t one of the names listed. - - -NO I don’t have any concrete evidence that we are- --just an opinion - -like everyone else here that’s all - -just my gut --sure hope I’m wrong - -would love to be. - I just feel something smells here and it isn’t innonence , this goes to deep. -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jaybate-1-0 At this point, I would not doubt anything that comes out of Washington. The deep state is real, the deep state is dangerous to democracy. It’s the 4th branch of government we heard about in school – the bureaucracy. It’s the preservation of power and influence. What I fear is that the clear abuses by the DOJ/FBI (and IRS – let’s not forget that big one), are a clear attack from one side of the political spectrum. What’s different now is we have a non-vigilant, ever compliant, agenda driven, media machine. Just look at the front page of the KC Star today, and every day. It is embarrassing for journalism. What I fear more from a big picture perspective is that the action/reaction/counter-reaction, whatever, starts plunging us away from first world civility and governing, and into third world chaos. We already see the unprecedented, and truly disgusting behavior and intolerance in the streets, classrooms, and throughout our society.
@Hawk8086 The only reason – and I think we all can agree on this – that we would feel that we are immune is our unquestioning faith in Bill Self’s character. A quality of person that I believe is too strong and ethical to look the other way.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jaybate-1-0 At this point, I would not doubt anything that comes out of Washington. The deep state is real, the deep state is dangerous to democracy. It’s the 4th branch of government we heard about in school – the bureaucracy. It’s the preservation of power and influence. What I fear is that the clear abuses by the DOJ/FBI (and IRS – let’s not forget that big one), are a clear attack from one side of the political spectrum. What’s different now is we have a non-vigilant, ever compliant, agenda driven, media machine. Just look at the front page of the KC Star today, and every day. It is embarrassing for journalism. What I fear more from a big picture perspective is that the action/reaction/counter-reaction, whatever, starts plunging us away from 1st world civility and into third world chaos.
@Hawk8086 The only reason – and I think we all can agree on this – that we would feel that we are immune is our unquestioning faith in Bill Self’s character. A quality of person that I believe is too strong and ethical to look the other way.
I understand what your saying about Coach Self’s character and I agree however this is probably like what 95% of other fan bases feel about their Coach and their team don’t you think. - As CRAZY AS IT SOUNDS Kentucky fans for sure think Coach Cal is innoncent - -I have a hard time with that - - but they do. - Every school/fan base wanting to blame every other school in the Nation but THIER OWN - - I just don’t know what to think. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@HighEliteMajor “The only reason – and I think we all can agree on this – that we would feel that we are immune is our unquestioning faith in Bill Self’s character. A quality of person that I believe is too strong and ethical to look the other way.”
True about him, but I think most of us worry about some of the players’ (and their families’) susceptibility to temptation more than we do the staff, and the offerings to them by agents, boosters or other outsiders most of all.
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I agree as well about believing in Self’s character. I think we all owe him that benefit until proven otherwise
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mayjay said:
@HighEliteMajor “The only reason – and I think we all can agree on this – that we would feel that we are immune is our unquestioning faith in Bill Self’s character. A quality of person that I believe is too strong and ethical to look the other way.”
True about him, but I think most of us worry about some of the players’ (and their families’) susceptibility to temptation more than we do the staff, and the offerings to them by agents, boosters or other outsiders most of all.
true mayjay, – -and when we talk about players and their families makes me have to think foremost possibly as been mention by some others - -makes me think possibly about Cliff and his family. - -That is one I’m concerned about. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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One case was already thrown out. A very prosecutor friendly judge held off another three attempts for now. I still think this is mostly a bunch of chest puffing. Time will tell.
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@mayjay Good point. The players /families accepting stuff without the coaches knowing about it.
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I’m not worried about Bill’s direct involvement (or the stafff really). I do worry about what Adidas did for KU without the programs knowledge or consent.
The bright side is, once the investigation became public most of the guys KU had been recruiting signed with KU. This leads me to believe the incoming class is clean. And it’s the best class KU has signed in years.
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@kjayhawks No SHI* - if you’re going t o cheat, at least be good at it -
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This is bigger than UNC for one simple reason - MONEY. There is money involved here. There’s the possibility that money was laundered (origination and destination obscured or hidden) in order to pass it on illegally. That’s why this is a bigger case. Having athletes enroll in easy classes is academic fraud, but likely not a federal crime. Money laundering is a crime.
This could be the beginning of the end for the NCAA. How do you get your biggest money making sport in the clear. College hoops is a billion dollar industry, but the talent that is on the court playing the games isn’t supposed to touch any of that money. That means if they do get that money, it has to pass under the table, meaning the money has to be taken out in cash from nefarious sources, and passed along either in cash, or after having gone through other channels. Suffice it to say, this is not going to be pretty for anyone involved because we could be talking about real actual jail time.
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“NCAA’s Three-Year Investigation Into Fake Classes At UNC Ends With A Whimper”
https://deadspin.com/ncaas-three-year-investigation-into-fake-classes-at-unc-1819441583
They are off the hook.
“By leaving the ability to determine what academic fraud is to the member schools, the NCAA created an easy pathway to success for UNC.”
I always knew the NCAA to be a bogus institution… but this should be tried under federal law because of the widespread damage it did to all UNC grads. In the very least, it appears that every student was defrauded on a standards academic commitment made by the university.
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@mayjay @jayballer73 Another thing, I think we all believe we know Bill Self. We hear him, he runs a great program, we trust him. Why? Because of years of equity.
I don’t feel that way with our assistant coaches. It’s not that I think any of them are bad folks, I just don’t feel like I know them.
A scenario to consider. Remember when we were discussing Jerrance Howard? There was a point where many thought he was on shaky ground. The marijuana deal too. It is not a stretch that a guy whose job might be on the line, might do something secretive to hold his job. That’s concerning in this environment, and knowing an Adidas rep could certainly sense weakness and try to capitalize on that with a possibly vulnerable assistant coach.
Again, I have not one reason to distrust any of the assistant coaches other than a general distrust of human nature in general.
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I have reasons to feel optimistic about Kansas in all of this. Here is why:
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If you look at the first round of those charged, it was all assistant coaches. The first place to look is at our assistant coaches. Self has been with these guys for a long, long time. Our assistants are not young guys, except for Snacks. Snacks… I’m not sure about. But I haven’t heard of any of our old assistants having past ethics issues.
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Because of our past issues with the NCAA… Kansas stepped up huge with a compliance department that is second to none! It’s a model program that has actually helped dozens of other universities setup quality compliance. Granted… that doesn’t mean coaching staffs won’t go behind their backs… but it puts a huge emphasis on playing by the rules and that someone is watching.
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The first round of busts were centered around Adidas and Jim Gatto. I don’t know this to be fact… but from my own whispers I have been informed that the next round will target Nike schools. This would mean a much larger group of schools would be vulnerable to the snare set by the DOJ. I just don’t see a possibility that Calipari can escape this time. He’s finally met his match because the investigative body of the DOJ has capabilities far outreaching the investigators of the NCAA. You all know how I feel about Nike. I’ve been saying it for years… it is an Int’l crime cartel that makes all the drug cartels seem like choir boys. Adidas is guilty, too… but they don’t have the same setup of illegal laundering and cash slush funds that Nike has. I could be wrong about that because most of what I have seen outside of US borders involved Nike.
Just imagine if this really does go down… and if Kansas isn’t involved? We are talking about a reshuffle of the blue bloods. I remain hopeful, though I still have the occasional panic attack that many others are having.
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@Buster-1926 Man, that is excellent insight. The cost does seem wildly exorbitant, given the matter at hand there.
@drgnslayr Optimism is good. And we have good reason to be. Sound logic, well thought out. there are only so many blue bloods. KU, UK, Duke, UNC, UCLA, Indiana? Maybe MSU. So “plural” man not include us. Remind me to be optimistic. I might need it.
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None of us want to be lemmings. Unfortunately, most people don’t realize how many varieties of lemmings exist!
Ha… the key is to keep a sense of humor. It will give you the strength to survive anything. At least… that is what I was told by my Uncle Jake, who landed at Normandy and survived.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@mayjay @jayballer73 Another thing, I think we all believe we know Bill Self. We hear him, he runs a great program, we trust him. Why? Because of years of equity.
I don’t feel that way with our assistant coaches. It’s not that I think any of them are bad folks, I just don’t feel like I know them.
A scenario to consider. Remember when we were discussing Jerrance Howard? There was a point where many thought he was on shaky ground. The marijuana deal too. It is not a stretch that a guy whose job might be on the line, might do something secretive to hold his job. That’s concerning in this environment, and knowing an Adidas rep could certainly sense weakness and try to capitalize on that with a possibly vulnerable assistant coach.
Again, I have not one reason to distrust any of the assistant coaches other than a general distrust of human nature in general.
Very well put. I too agree about Coach, I don’t know maybe I’m just blind --but I also just feel that he would not be involved knowingly anyways - -as far as assistants? - that’s a different possibility and yes Coach howard IF there were anything possibly because of some of his problems in the past with the weed - but yet still I would hope our group is better then that. - -However as big as this seems to be just gives me an uneasiness . Sure hope I’m wrong and were squeaky clean, - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Tastes like chicken! lol
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There appears some possible correlation that Kentucky and Duke have backed away from the 8-10 dump truck thresholds recently… Could they, or their aggregate suppliers, have seen this coming? How convenient for them, or what a remarkable coincidence? It is all quite difficult to fathom for a fan!
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I know a few people in the Know. KU is not the main target. Didn’t say who is but KU is small potatoes compared to who is going to get the hurt. I cant wait for it!
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I have not doubt that lots of players are probably involved; it would be extremely naive to think otherwise. The question is, how are programs with players that took money unbeknown to the school going to be affected?
Let’s take Preston, who I am fairly certain will be named. As I said at the time, if the car was obtained on the up and up, the issue would have been resolved in a couple of days. Now, KU never stopped trying to get him cleared and it is obvious it was being told there was no impermissible benefits at stake; in fact, it was Preston himself that stopped the process by bolting the program and heading to what I would call a shitty job in Eastern Europe and likely ione step ahead of the law. Now, if KU did no have any information about any illegal benefits while recruiting him, sat him as soon as there was a question and he never played a single offcial game, should it be penalized?
I see a potential blanket amnesty for programs that did not engage in cheating but were victimized by prospects, agents and business interests.
The stories on the issue indicate fraud against schools by misrepresenting eligibility and obtaining non-deserving scholarships which would logically imply that schools are de-facto plaintiffs and might be forced to testify even when in some cases it would implicate them, how about the 5th amendment and self-incrimination? If the schools are plaintiffs, should this not be a class action suit in Civil Court?
It is by no means inconceivable anymore that this is a gigantic smoke screen to hide all the political cases where the FBI has recently gotten itself in deep trouble and we don’t even know the full extent of all aspect that were involved acting uniquely based on political considerations, with text book cases of conflict of interest and with complete disregard for the laws it is tasked to protect.
I really do not want to stray into politics but in this particular case it really cannot be casually dismissed. Strange times we live in.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
… the FBI has recently gotten itself in deep trouble and we don’t even know the full extent of all aspect that were involved acting uniquely based on political considerations, with text book cases of conflict of interest and with complete disregard for the laws it is tasked to protect.
I really do not want to stray into politics …
In other words, you want to accuse the FBI without any rebuttal?
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So I’m a dummy here. I’ve watched videos, read articles…whatever to try to get real insight on this scandal. I understand the money laundering I guess…but breaking this down into simple talk…what did people do to really get into trouble? I mean, the facing 80 years in the pen kind of trouble. Some kids got paid to go to school. So what? That’s an amateur problem which should be decided by the NCAA. I get where the families could get in trouble with the Al Capone treatment as they didn’t pay federal income taxes on the “bribes”. Same goes with the coaches as well. But what else? I understand this as the public universities were not providing cash…thus federal and/or state funds weren’t used.
Can someone dumb this down to really say what the big problem is…besides the obvious a professional is playing an amateur sport? Why is the FBI involved in this? Maybe I’ve watched The Untouchables too many times…but I feel like this is a job for Elliot Ness and Sean Connery (I can’t remember his name, but only he lives on Racine)…certainly not the FBI.
Is it as simple as @JayHawkFanToo stated and it deals with if the schools knew about the kids getting paid…and then the school gave the kid a scholarship for which the kid was not eligible for…it would then be classified as a misappropriation of federal subsidies??? I never really thought of it like that…but that’s the best explanation I’ve heard.
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@bmensch1 You are no dummy. Here is the exact wording from the indictment -
The scheme described herein served to defraud the relevant universities in several ways.
First, by virtue of accepting and concealing payments that, if uncovered, would render them ineligible to participate in Division I basketball, the student-athletes and/or their family members conspired with coaches and apparel company executives to obtain athletic-based financial aid for the student-athletes from NCAA Division I universities through false and fraudulent means. Indeed, for the scheme to succeed and the athletic scholarships to be awarded such that the athletes could play at a NCAA Division I university, the student-athletes and coaches described herein must falsely certify to the universities that they are unaware of any rules violations, including the illegal payments.
Second, the scheme participants further defrauded the universities, or attempted to do so, by depriving the universities of significant and necessary information regarding the non-compliance with NCAA rules by the relevant student-athletes and coaches. In doing so, the scheme participants interfered with the universities’ ability to control their assets and created a risk of tangible economic harm to the universities, including, among other things, decision-making about the distribution of their limited athletic scholarships; the possible disgorgement of certain profit-sharing by the NCAA; monetary fines; restrictions on athlete recruitment and the distribution of athletic scholarships; and the potential ineligibility of the university’s basketball team to compete in NCAA programs generally, and the ineligibility of certain student-athletes in particular.
The charges are ridiculous.
So first, we’re indicting because the conspiracy supposedly defrauds the schools because the players would no longer be eligible.
And second, because it created the risk of financial harm to the school because the schools are deprived of information (the payments).
That’s it. Just a complete prosecutorial overreach.
Some might call that free enterprise. Adidas simply paying to further their business. Can Coca-Cola pay folks to use their product, market their product, and try to get others to use it, all to Pepsi’s detriment? The prosecutors are relying on the NCAA rules as the backdrop, a private organization’s RULES to form the basis for the fraud. Because the schools have to abide by RULES, and these payments compromise them because of those rules, it’s a federal fraud charge?
Just a complete joke.
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@Statmachine I sure hope your source is right!
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I would love to see UK and Duke go down, because I do believe both programs are a bit shady. Yet it isn’t going to happen. If UNC can get a way with basically buying grades for their student athletes, then Duke and UK aren’t going down for nothing. Remember how many times the NCAA got big balls making sure some players certain players got the proper grades to play CB? Yet when it came to UNC creating a climate of free grades nothing? LOL. I know this this the FBI probe. It’s out of the NCAA’s hands. Um last time I checked the FBI seems to be a bit biased. LOL I wonder who rights the check to make this all go away? Somehow KU will be punished for buying a plane ticket so one of their student athletes could go see a dying family member.
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Throughout his adult life my father in law was engaged in big city politics, both as an office holder and unofficial member of backroom kitchen cabinet domains. Regarding criminal acts which involved relatively big money transactions, esp. of a clandestine nature, his opinion and advice: Follow the money; all the money. At this juncture, indeed a scary business for the KU athletic program, as a whole. Adidas has kicked huge sums into KU athletics. Over recent decades KU Hoops and, perhaps, the now less prominent Kansas Relays have been kingpins of Kansas Athletics. Probably the driving forces behind Adidas shelling out so many huge dollars to the program.
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@HighEliteMajor thanks for the information. I’ve perused the indictment and still couldnt wrap my head around the potential for 80 years in the pokey. Will they get that…of course not. But that’s the max. Crazier things have happened.
The fbi can name all the names they want…but the ncaa will in no way put 1/6 of the ncaa on probation. It was going to take the ncaa 4 months to look at billy…and now we are led to believe they are going to look at 50 schools and analyze about 200 players eligibility issues…at blue bloods…with espn, fox, and cbs whom have invested billions in brodcast rights and there is a potential of an NJIT vs the campbell fighting camels in the ncaa championship…negative. ain’t gonna happen. Merely sending a note to everyone saying "we know you effed up. Be careful the next time. " should be sufficient.
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I am just wondering if the whole recording industry “payola” scandal and the prosecutions arising out of that are of a similar vein to the theories here.
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@bmensch1 You raise a point that I have been thinking about…are they going to gut March Madness for next year? One wouldn’t think so…it makes too much money.
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@mayjay Looked up payola. Recording industry cases involved violations a spelled out in specific laws and regs under federal communications law. So, paying to influence someone to attend a school, for example, likely would also need an underlying violated federal interest to become criminal activity.
