NCAA Basketball Corruption?
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mayjay said:
@HighEliteMajor “The only reason – and I think we all can agree on this – that we would feel that we are immune is our unquestioning faith in Bill Self’s character. A quality of person that I believe is too strong and ethical to look the other way.”
True about him, but I think most of us worry about some of the players’ (and their families’) susceptibility to temptation more than we do the staff, and the offerings to them by agents, boosters or other outsiders most of all.
true mayjay, – -and when we talk about players and their families makes me have to think foremost possibly as been mention by some others - -makes me think possibly about Cliff and his family. - -That is one I’m concerned about. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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One case was already thrown out. A very prosecutor friendly judge held off another three attempts for now. I still think this is mostly a bunch of chest puffing. Time will tell.
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@mayjay Good point. The players /families accepting stuff without the coaches knowing about it.
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I’m not worried about Bill’s direct involvement (or the stafff really). I do worry about what Adidas did for KU without the programs knowledge or consent.
The bright side is, once the investigation became public most of the guys KU had been recruiting signed with KU. This leads me to believe the incoming class is clean. And it’s the best class KU has signed in years.
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@kjayhawks No SHI* - if you’re going t o cheat, at least be good at it -
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This is bigger than UNC for one simple reason - MONEY. There is money involved here. There’s the possibility that money was laundered (origination and destination obscured or hidden) in order to pass it on illegally. That’s why this is a bigger case. Having athletes enroll in easy classes is academic fraud, but likely not a federal crime. Money laundering is a crime.
This could be the beginning of the end for the NCAA. How do you get your biggest money making sport in the clear. College hoops is a billion dollar industry, but the talent that is on the court playing the games isn’t supposed to touch any of that money. That means if they do get that money, it has to pass under the table, meaning the money has to be taken out in cash from nefarious sources, and passed along either in cash, or after having gone through other channels. Suffice it to say, this is not going to be pretty for anyone involved because we could be talking about real actual jail time.
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“NCAA’s Three-Year Investigation Into Fake Classes At UNC Ends With A Whimper”
https://deadspin.com/ncaas-three-year-investigation-into-fake-classes-at-unc-1819441583
They are off the hook.
“By leaving the ability to determine what academic fraud is to the member schools, the NCAA created an easy pathway to success for UNC.”
I always knew the NCAA to be a bogus institution… but this should be tried under federal law because of the widespread damage it did to all UNC grads. In the very least, it appears that every student was defrauded on a standards academic commitment made by the university.
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@mayjay @jayballer73 Another thing, I think we all believe we know Bill Self. We hear him, he runs a great program, we trust him. Why? Because of years of equity.
I don’t feel that way with our assistant coaches. It’s not that I think any of them are bad folks, I just don’t feel like I know them.
A scenario to consider. Remember when we were discussing Jerrance Howard? There was a point where many thought he was on shaky ground. The marijuana deal too. It is not a stretch that a guy whose job might be on the line, might do something secretive to hold his job. That’s concerning in this environment, and knowing an Adidas rep could certainly sense weakness and try to capitalize on that with a possibly vulnerable assistant coach.
Again, I have not one reason to distrust any of the assistant coaches other than a general distrust of human nature in general.
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I have reasons to feel optimistic about Kansas in all of this. Here is why:
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If you look at the first round of those charged, it was all assistant coaches. The first place to look is at our assistant coaches. Self has been with these guys for a long, long time. Our assistants are not young guys, except for Snacks. Snacks… I’m not sure about. But I haven’t heard of any of our old assistants having past ethics issues.
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Because of our past issues with the NCAA… Kansas stepped up huge with a compliance department that is second to none! It’s a model program that has actually helped dozens of other universities setup quality compliance. Granted… that doesn’t mean coaching staffs won’t go behind their backs… but it puts a huge emphasis on playing by the rules and that someone is watching.
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The first round of busts were centered around Adidas and Jim Gatto. I don’t know this to be fact… but from my own whispers I have been informed that the next round will target Nike schools. This would mean a much larger group of schools would be vulnerable to the snare set by the DOJ. I just don’t see a possibility that Calipari can escape this time. He’s finally met his match because the investigative body of the DOJ has capabilities far outreaching the investigators of the NCAA. You all know how I feel about Nike. I’ve been saying it for years… it is an Int’l crime cartel that makes all the drug cartels seem like choir boys. Adidas is guilty, too… but they don’t have the same setup of illegal laundering and cash slush funds that Nike has. I could be wrong about that because most of what I have seen outside of US borders involved Nike.
Just imagine if this really does go down… and if Kansas isn’t involved? We are talking about a reshuffle of the blue bloods. I remain hopeful, though I still have the occasional panic attack that many others are having.
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@Buster-1926 Man, that is excellent insight. The cost does seem wildly exorbitant, given the matter at hand there.
@drgnslayr Optimism is good. And we have good reason to be. Sound logic, well thought out. there are only so many blue bloods. KU, UK, Duke, UNC, UCLA, Indiana? Maybe MSU. So “plural” man not include us. Remind me to be optimistic. I might need it.
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None of us want to be lemmings. Unfortunately, most people don’t realize how many varieties of lemmings exist!
Ha… the key is to keep a sense of humor. It will give you the strength to survive anything. At least… that is what I was told by my Uncle Jake, who landed at Normandy and survived.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@mayjay @jayballer73 Another thing, I think we all believe we know Bill Self. We hear him, he runs a great program, we trust him. Why? Because of years of equity.
I don’t feel that way with our assistant coaches. It’s not that I think any of them are bad folks, I just don’t feel like I know them.
A scenario to consider. Remember when we were discussing Jerrance Howard? There was a point where many thought he was on shaky ground. The marijuana deal too. It is not a stretch that a guy whose job might be on the line, might do something secretive to hold his job. That’s concerning in this environment, and knowing an Adidas rep could certainly sense weakness and try to capitalize on that with a possibly vulnerable assistant coach.
Again, I have not one reason to distrust any of the assistant coaches other than a general distrust of human nature in general.
Very well put. I too agree about Coach, I don’t know maybe I’m just blind --but I also just feel that he would not be involved knowingly anyways - -as far as assistants? - that’s a different possibility and yes Coach howard IF there were anything possibly because of some of his problems in the past with the weed - but yet still I would hope our group is better then that. - -However as big as this seems to be just gives me an uneasiness . Sure hope I’m wrong and were squeaky clean, - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Tastes like chicken! lol
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There appears some possible correlation that Kentucky and Duke have backed away from the 8-10 dump truck thresholds recently… Could they, or their aggregate suppliers, have seen this coming? How convenient for them, or what a remarkable coincidence? It is all quite difficult to fathom for a fan!
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I know a few people in the Know. KU is not the main target. Didn’t say who is but KU is small potatoes compared to who is going to get the hurt. I cant wait for it!
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I have not doubt that lots of players are probably involved; it would be extremely naive to think otherwise. The question is, how are programs with players that took money unbeknown to the school going to be affected?
Let’s take Preston, who I am fairly certain will be named. As I said at the time, if the car was obtained on the up and up, the issue would have been resolved in a couple of days. Now, KU never stopped trying to get him cleared and it is obvious it was being told there was no impermissible benefits at stake; in fact, it was Preston himself that stopped the process by bolting the program and heading to what I would call a shitty job in Eastern Europe and likely ione step ahead of the law. Now, if KU did no have any information about any illegal benefits while recruiting him, sat him as soon as there was a question and he never played a single offcial game, should it be penalized?
I see a potential blanket amnesty for programs that did not engage in cheating but were victimized by prospects, agents and business interests.
The stories on the issue indicate fraud against schools by misrepresenting eligibility and obtaining non-deserving scholarships which would logically imply that schools are de-facto plaintiffs and might be forced to testify even when in some cases it would implicate them, how about the 5th amendment and self-incrimination? If the schools are plaintiffs, should this not be a class action suit in Civil Court?
It is by no means inconceivable anymore that this is a gigantic smoke screen to hide all the political cases where the FBI has recently gotten itself in deep trouble and we don’t even know the full extent of all aspect that were involved acting uniquely based on political considerations, with text book cases of conflict of interest and with complete disregard for the laws it is tasked to protect.
I really do not want to stray into politics but in this particular case it really cannot be casually dismissed. Strange times we live in.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
… the FBI has recently gotten itself in deep trouble and we don’t even know the full extent of all aspect that were involved acting uniquely based on political considerations, with text book cases of conflict of interest and with complete disregard for the laws it is tasked to protect.
I really do not want to stray into politics …
In other words, you want to accuse the FBI without any rebuttal?
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So I’m a dummy here. I’ve watched videos, read articles…whatever to try to get real insight on this scandal. I understand the money laundering I guess…but breaking this down into simple talk…what did people do to really get into trouble? I mean, the facing 80 years in the pen kind of trouble. Some kids got paid to go to school. So what? That’s an amateur problem which should be decided by the NCAA. I get where the families could get in trouble with the Al Capone treatment as they didn’t pay federal income taxes on the “bribes”. Same goes with the coaches as well. But what else? I understand this as the public universities were not providing cash…thus federal and/or state funds weren’t used.
Can someone dumb this down to really say what the big problem is…besides the obvious a professional is playing an amateur sport? Why is the FBI involved in this? Maybe I’ve watched The Untouchables too many times…but I feel like this is a job for Elliot Ness and Sean Connery (I can’t remember his name, but only he lives on Racine)…certainly not the FBI.
Is it as simple as @JayHawkFanToo stated and it deals with if the schools knew about the kids getting paid…and then the school gave the kid a scholarship for which the kid was not eligible for…it would then be classified as a misappropriation of federal subsidies??? I never really thought of it like that…but that’s the best explanation I’ve heard.
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@bmensch1 You are no dummy. Here is the exact wording from the indictment -
The scheme described herein served to defraud the relevant universities in several ways.
First, by virtue of accepting and concealing payments that, if uncovered, would render them ineligible to participate in Division I basketball, the student-athletes and/or their family members conspired with coaches and apparel company executives to obtain athletic-based financial aid for the student-athletes from NCAA Division I universities through false and fraudulent means. Indeed, for the scheme to succeed and the athletic scholarships to be awarded such that the athletes could play at a NCAA Division I university, the student-athletes and coaches described herein must falsely certify to the universities that they are unaware of any rules violations, including the illegal payments.
Second, the scheme participants further defrauded the universities, or attempted to do so, by depriving the universities of significant and necessary information regarding the non-compliance with NCAA rules by the relevant student-athletes and coaches. In doing so, the scheme participants interfered with the universities’ ability to control their assets and created a risk of tangible economic harm to the universities, including, among other things, decision-making about the distribution of their limited athletic scholarships; the possible disgorgement of certain profit-sharing by the NCAA; monetary fines; restrictions on athlete recruitment and the distribution of athletic scholarships; and the potential ineligibility of the university’s basketball team to compete in NCAA programs generally, and the ineligibility of certain student-athletes in particular.
The charges are ridiculous.
So first, we’re indicting because the conspiracy supposedly defrauds the schools because the players would no longer be eligible.
And second, because it created the risk of financial harm to the school because the schools are deprived of information (the payments).
That’s it. Just a complete prosecutorial overreach.
Some might call that free enterprise. Adidas simply paying to further their business. Can Coca-Cola pay folks to use their product, market their product, and try to get others to use it, all to Pepsi’s detriment? The prosecutors are relying on the NCAA rules as the backdrop, a private organization’s RULES to form the basis for the fraud. Because the schools have to abide by RULES, and these payments compromise them because of those rules, it’s a federal fraud charge?
Just a complete joke.
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@Statmachine I sure hope your source is right!
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I would love to see UK and Duke go down, because I do believe both programs are a bit shady. Yet it isn’t going to happen. If UNC can get a way with basically buying grades for their student athletes, then Duke and UK aren’t going down for nothing. Remember how many times the NCAA got big balls making sure some players certain players got the proper grades to play CB? Yet when it came to UNC creating a climate of free grades nothing? LOL. I know this this the FBI probe. It’s out of the NCAA’s hands. Um last time I checked the FBI seems to be a bit biased. LOL I wonder who rights the check to make this all go away? Somehow KU will be punished for buying a plane ticket so one of their student athletes could go see a dying family member.
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Throughout his adult life my father in law was engaged in big city politics, both as an office holder and unofficial member of backroom kitchen cabinet domains. Regarding criminal acts which involved relatively big money transactions, esp. of a clandestine nature, his opinion and advice: Follow the money; all the money. At this juncture, indeed a scary business for the KU athletic program, as a whole. Adidas has kicked huge sums into KU athletics. Over recent decades KU Hoops and, perhaps, the now less prominent Kansas Relays have been kingpins of Kansas Athletics. Probably the driving forces behind Adidas shelling out so many huge dollars to the program.
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@HighEliteMajor thanks for the information. I’ve perused the indictment and still couldnt wrap my head around the potential for 80 years in the pokey. Will they get that…of course not. But that’s the max. Crazier things have happened.
The fbi can name all the names they want…but the ncaa will in no way put 1/6 of the ncaa on probation. It was going to take the ncaa 4 months to look at billy…and now we are led to believe they are going to look at 50 schools and analyze about 200 players eligibility issues…at blue bloods…with espn, fox, and cbs whom have invested billions in brodcast rights and there is a potential of an NJIT vs the campbell fighting camels in the ncaa championship…negative. ain’t gonna happen. Merely sending a note to everyone saying "we know you effed up. Be careful the next time. " should be sufficient.
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I am just wondering if the whole recording industry “payola” scandal and the prosecutions arising out of that are of a similar vein to the theories here.
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@bmensch1 You raise a point that I have been thinking about…are they going to gut March Madness for next year? One wouldn’t think so…it makes too much money.
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@mayjay Looked up payola. Recording industry cases involved violations a spelled out in specific laws and regs under federal communications law. So, paying to influence someone to attend a school, for example, likely would also need an underlying violated federal interest to become criminal activity.
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Why not? Are we just to pretend the FBI is always on the up and up. It’s not political. Just a fact.
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I agree. I can readily see where a prospect and/or his family receiving money for future considerations breaks all kinds of NCAA rules, but does it really break any laws?
Corporations routinely pay athletes to use their likeness to promote their products, it is called endorsements. Yes, it makes the athlete ineligible for amateur competition but it is not against the law. Now, if a school feels it has been financial damaged by the athlete not disclosing his prior financial arrangements then the recourse is Civil and not Criminal a Court.
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DoubleDD said:
Why not? Are we just to pretend the FBI is always on the up and up. It’s not political. Just a fact.
So no rebuttal, I get it. Just “a fact”.
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@ParisHawk I think it is hysterical that people think the FBI opened an investigation 2 years ago to give them cover from allegations of conflicts of interest arising out of other investigations. Sort of a bigger version of the Tarkanian Cleveland State theory.
“Hey, we might have done something wrong here. A few upper level political appointees are gonna get in trouble for making decisions about their friends’ invesstigations.”
“Um, okay, let’s go after college basketball in a big way for a couple of years but don’t tell anyone. We will keep it in reserve until we need some cover.”
Reality: a sports investigation will not detract from or deflect a political investigation.
And the Deep State theory for the motivation behind this investigation is even more laughable. The targets, in case anyone hasn’t noticed, are universities. Deep Staters, those liberal evildoers, aren’t likely to try to bring down the centers of the “Resistance.”
Not everything is a plot. And if the plotters were so capable of doing it, they would just be entrenched in power, not working behind the scenes.
Anyone looking for conflicts of interest as driving anything in this investigation should probably focus on money driven influence in the NCAA instead of political connections.
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@mayjay So, do you agree that the charges are a stretch? Premising the fraud on internal rules violations? Possibly done for headlines?
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Article at ESPN today – http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22476693/roy-williams-confident-north-carolina-tar-heels-not-part-fbi-probe
Roy Williams quote: “I feel very comfortable,” Williams said while speaking to reporters in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. “If the phone rings at night, I’m not worried about that. I may worry about a lot of other things but it ain’t about that.”
Bill Self quote: “We’re obviously all concerned for our profession,” Self said. “I do not have any information to comment one way or another. Like I said, I hope the reports are not accurate, but whatever is found out we’ll deal with it and were going to do all we can to make it better so we don’t have to put ourselves in a position to be looked at in this manner again.”
Roy’s comment is basically, “UNC didn’t do it.” Self’s comment is vague. Many ways to read that.
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HighEliteMajor said:
Article at ESPN today – http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22476693/roy-williams-confident-north-carolina-tar-heels-not-part-fbi-probe
Roy Williams quote: “I feel very comfortable,” Williams said while speaking to reporters in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. “If the phone rings at night, I’m not worried about that. I may worry about a lot of other things but it ain’t about that.”
Bill Self quote: “We’re obviously all concerned for our profession,” Self said. “I do not have any information to comment one way or another. Like I said, I hope the reports are not accurate, but whatever is found out we’ll deal with it and were going to do all we can to make it better so we don’t have to put ourselves in a position to be looked at in this manner again.”
Roy’s comment is basically, “UNC didn’t do it.” Self’s comment is vague. Many ways to read that.
Ya. - - Again , just how comfortable do we feel about this? - -me? - - not so much - I think in some shape or form this is going to hit us. For what? - -I’m not really sure - -I just don’t get a good feel. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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The FBI has thousands of investigations going on all the time, some big and some small, they act on some the abandon others or move them to the state level. Now, the big announcement on the College basketball investigations came right around the time where all the news about misbehavior in the political investigations was coming out. They took an issue they should have passed on to the NCAA or to Civil Courts and made a big deal out of it…coincidence?
More importantly, you say they are going after colleges, the current bastion of liberalism? Read the indictment that @HighEliteMajor posted above, colleges are supposed to be the victims and not the targets.
Remember how, not that long ago, we all thought the FBI was above reproach only to find out how politized it had become and how badly they botched investigations that actually affect the country as a whole and not a piddly issue (in the big scheme of things) like college basketball. The FBI’s credibility is now at an all time low…unless you continue to wear your rose colored glasses.
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@HighEliteMajor On the respective quotes by the coaches, Roy can say things like that because after the fake class scandal resulted in no findings, he knows UNC has permanent immunity for everything. Self lives in perpetual fear after two NCAA investigations that resulted in no findings nevertheless resulted in losing two five-star players.
On your first post with the question to me, I think the issue may depend on what kids and families sign to get their scholatships. Like a falsified mortgage application can result in federal charges. I do not know if athletes fill out federal financial aid applications to get their grants-in-aid. If so, federal interest is easily proven.
Interestingly, the move to get additional stipends to players may result in more player vulnerability because they actually receive money with those stipends. In many scholarship arrangements, the “private” Athl Dept simply arranges the enrollment with the school and the scholarship exists only as accounting entries. Money changing hands always creates potential foundation for federal jurisduction.
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@JayHawkFanToo For FBI historians, the all-time low is more likely to have been found in their participation in J Edgar’s personal vendettas, his antiSemitic campaigns against Einstein and others, the anti-communist witch hunts, and the initial FBI resistance to civil rights investigations.
On Universities being the victims, that is the alleged crux of jurisdiction. I don’t think everyone is thinking schools are relieved this is happening.
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@mayjay At least your response seems to concede the depths to which the current FBI reputation has plummeted.
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@HighEliteMajor You are imagining things if you think I conceded that. I think a few political appointees went wacky and made some really bad decisions to please certain politicos. I do not see the top to bottom problems that occur with corruption-riddled organizations.
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If there are federal indictments brought, whether we agree with them or not, they have passed a minimum legal bar by being brought by a grand jury. There has to be a case (or cases) showing the possible breaking of a law or laws. The judicial system leaves very little room for politics to be injected.
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@mayjay The problems are in the top tier, corrupted by a political agenda, as you mentioned. I do think you should consider that the corruption you speak of is a touch more pervasive than you have acknowledged.
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@mayjay What he said.
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@drgnslayr The term prosecutorial discretion leaves a huge void for politics. A prosecutor can choose what charges to bring, and what crimes to ignore, and can decide what person he/she would like to pressure(extort) for information by the threat of destroying that person’s life.
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You realized that Hoover has been dead for over 45 years, right? Back then we did not have internet or cable news or the access to information we have now so the average American had little information on what went on and believed the FBI did a good job and did not have the bad impression it has now.
The agency was cleaned up extensively after Hoover and was generally considered to be doing a good job. In the last few year, the FBI along with other government agencies was “weaponized” to become an arm of a political party. This not to say that every employee and agent is corrup but then, policy is no made by the rank and file but comes from the top where the problem lies. If you don’t see that then I don’t know what to tell you.
In a previous post you said…
”The targets, in case anyone hasn’t noticed, are universities.”
Really? The indictment indicates that the universities are the victims…so, which is it?
This reminds me of Chinatown…
Evelyn Mulwray: She’s my daughter.
[Gittes slaps Evelyn]
Jake Gittes: I said I want the truth!
Evelyn Mulwray: She’s my sister…
[slap]
Evelyn Mulwray: She’s my daughter…
[slap]
Evelyn Mulwray: My sister, my daughter.
[More slaps]
Jake Gittes: I said I want the truth!
Evelyn Mulwray: She’s my sister AND my daughter!
Or perhaps…
FBI: OK, University xxx, you have to testify since you are the victim.
University xxx: But, but, but…aren’t We also the target?
FBI: Yes, you are but you have to testify anyway.
University xxx: Wouldn’t we then be testifying against ourselves?
FBI: Yes, but you would also be testifying for you…
University xxx: Thanks but no thanks, we are good and we are not testifying.
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That is really not the way it works in real life. Attorneys have an expression that says…a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. Grand jury rules are heavily biased towards the prosecution and getting an indictment really does not say much to the actual merits of the case only that the largely one sided and uncontested information presented by the prosecutor meets some minimum threshold.
Considering how known to be false information was recently used to obtain warrants in FISA court, can you be sure it is not the same case here?
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@JayHawkFanToo A good reputation under Hoover was undeserved. Thus, the word “historians” in my post.
JFK had an undeserved general reputation as the All American cookie cutter husband with a beautiful wife. It is now known to have been as mythical as the Camelot whose name was used for the WH.
Reputations change as more facts come out. Unless you disagree, I hope you are not proud of the FBI’s work at Hoover’s behest to destroy lives and blackmail his opponents.
The argument, “The FBI may have been a tool of a power-mad fascist, but people didn’t know it because we were ignorant, so wow! what a great reputation it had!” is absurd.
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@mayjay The FBI is a joke I don’t wanna get into on this thread (or really any other lol) but big changes are needed in that agency.
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Self believes he’s clean as does Williams, interesting…
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@kjayhawks Most agencies. So long as influence and money determine who leads agencies, rather than expertise, they will not perform properly. This has been a problem under both parties.
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Spoken like a lawyer. I never said I agreed with what Hoover or the FBI under Hoover did, right? I believe what he did was a travesty and unprecedented and he accumulated so much power that presidents were afraid to fire him so he marched on.
I also clearly said that people back then did not have access to the information we have now so they did not know what went on under Hoover so, even if it was by ignorance, the opinion of the FBI was not as bad as it seems to be now, right?
I was never a fan of John Kennedy or the Kennedy clan. I though he was a below average president with a pretty bankrupt moral compass.
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@JayHawkFanToo Let’s agree to drop it from here. And not take it elsewhere.
