Bill Self - cost us the game?
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Interesting. Channel 5 in KC referred to the poke-a-Doke. Remember, you heard it here first.
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Hows that for confidence?
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I wish Doke had fouled out with 3 minutes left.
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This years âhow to beat KUâ play book. Put your walk onâs in and foul Doke every time KU takes a lead. Rinse and repeat. Out of all of KUâs possessions if you took 10-15 away by fouling Doke away from the ball then you could shave 20-30 pts off of their production. Seems legit.
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@truehawk93 not a bad game. Threw it with a failure to adapt. I donât see any way that Doke will grow from this. Itâs possible but probably not this year.
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@kjayhawks in last 2 min we werenât even throwing it in to him. They were fouling him when he wasnât really even in the play.
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Blown said:
Who would agree that Doke should have been called for a foul when he plowed into Young right before TY hit that 25 footer? They seemed to be calling every other touch foul.
Are you thinking conspiracy?
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@DanR Doke gained no confidence from this. At best, his confidence is not 100% destroyed.
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@CRH107 that take does not take into account the pressure that was built by a failure to adjust.
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@Crimsonorblue22 now thatâs a mystery. Not adapting to end game strategy is stupidity.
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@Big-Clyde52 hopefully our coaching staff would adjust in the future. If not, an Asst Coach needs to put his job on the line slapping sense into Self on the sideline.
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@Bwag a strategy the refs were keen on too. I mean how much more clear was it that the refs threw the game?
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@hawkmoon2020 I had this in the loss column like the WV game. But whoâd figure weâd give it due to coaching when victory was achievable at 2 min mark with an adaption to other teams coaching strategy?
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@chriz no. just thinking how the smallest things in games (and life) can prove to be more meaningful down the road than they appeared at the present time. Might have prevented that big 3 and had another foul on Doke and he could have fouled out of the game before being poked 5 times.
The Hawks lose championship this year by one game, this game will be very bitter to look back upon giving the circumstances and coaches decision.
I am still amazed about the foul discrepancies. Maybe I should âgo ask Fran about it.â
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This was adapting to the refs and how they were calling it. Which is called having the refs in your pocket. Which is cheating.
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@chriz I donât see that master plan materializing.
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A lot of great coaches on this site!
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nuleafjhawk said:
@DanR You play through your issues in practice. You try to win the F-ing games.
We could afford to lose this one. And I think this was engineered. But who cares. Vick, Doke, everyone. We need to get better when weâre tired in the second half.
We had pretty good defense. I wonder if Garrett is more important in the lineup than Vick at this point. Better defense and better handle.
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Partially. He was a contributing factor but I donât put it all on Bill Self. Self should have switched Doke and Lightfoot after the first time Kruger decidedt o intentionally foul. But, Azubuike is the one who missed the free throws, he also bears some of the blame.
Additionally DG shot 4/19 from the field and missed a lot of shots that he is capable of making. If he makes 2 or 3 more of his FGA and shoots like 6/19 or 7/19 (still bad), then it puts KU in a much better position to close out the game.
Overall just a disappointing loss and a game that KU should have had.
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Trae Young was great, though.
Lon Kruger is a good coach.
Water is wet, etc.
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Never in a million years did I think Iâd be yelling âPut in Mitch!â
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Who would have thought Self would blow a conference game. The Big-12 is his sacred ground.
Iâve never seen a coaching mistake that blatant from him in all the years. If there are others that top this Iâm drawing a blank at the moment.
Its put up or shut up time for both the staff and Doke. Both are forced to deal with the issue now. Both have to game-plan a way to improve. They helped Josh Jackson last season with his preparation and mentality. They must do the same with Doke now. Itâs hard to believe we all witnessed this last night
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Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
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wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didnât help
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@KirkIsMyHinrich I would suggest that Doke bears NONE of the blame. It is this coaching staff that has permitted him to shoot free throws like this. That is permitting a player to be in a clear and distinct position to fail. What would one think if that staff permitted Doke to shoot hook shots on his free throw attempts? I personally think this is worse. A hook shot at least is acceptable in form. This abomination is not. If the staff puts a player in a position to succeed, thatâs really all you can ask. This is the opposite. Self took responsibility for the result, but of course the supposed âreportersâ donât ever ask any tough or direct questions related to the clear and obvious âformâ issues â the âwhyâ is this happening inquiry.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
And even after they showed it on the scoreboard screen the fans kept booing; pretty ignorant fans.
Haha, I was hoping Dok would flatten Young. It wouldâve been doubly good for KU. No Young or Dok down the stretch.
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@HighEliteMajor And this will continue to be a real problem going forward. In close games, other coaches will surely use this tactic. Which, if Doke does not get better (as you say, how can he with that form?) will cause Self to have to take him out at the 5 min. mark or so depending on where we are on team fouls. Then, of course, teams will attack Mitch inside.
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Self should have gone back to Mitch. When we talk about confidence, we have to look at two things.
First, does this help or hurt Dokeâs confidence when heâs struggling? I say no, but thatâs debatable because Doke at least knows that Self will stick with him.
Second, does this help or hurt Mitchâs confidence? Mitch is sitting there seeing what OUâs strategy is. He sees Doke missing FTs and the lead dwindling. And yet Self doesnât look his way to stem the tide. Does Self have that little confidence in Lightfoot to at least make OU play ball instead of a foul-a-thon? And Mitch was playing some solid ball, too. Yet Self still wouldnât go to him down the stretch in a critical game.
Thereâs two elements of confidence here. Even if Dokeâs confidence wasnât shaken, do we know what kind of message that sent to Lightfoot?
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Fortunately for us, no other teams will scout this game to realize we are handing over a great tool for them to win. ha
What we canât do is go negative on Doke. Hey⌠as Iâve been saying⌠he has improved more than any other big man we have ever had in such a short time. IMHO, more so than JoJo because JoJo brought more tools with him to Lawrence.
Believe me⌠one or two more losses from âpoke a Dokeâ and weâll see changes⌠if not immediately after this loss.
Iâm thinking Doke is already asking Self to find a way to help him with his FTs. Our staff canât just let him go off on himself and do this. He needs help from others.
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BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didnât help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
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HighEliteMajor said:
@KirkIsMyHinrich I would suggest that Doke bears NONE of the blame. It is this coaching staff that has permitted him to shoot free throws like this. That is permitting a player to be in a clear and distinct position to fail. What would one think if that staff permitted Doke to shoot hook shots on his free throw attempts? I personally think this is worse. A hook shot at least is acceptable in form. This abomination is not. If the staff puts a player in a position to succeed, thatâs really all you can ask. This is the opposite. Self took responsibility for the result, but of course the supposed âreportersâ donât ever ask any tough or direct questions related to the clear and obvious âformâ issues â the âwhyâ is this happening inquiry.
I wonder if any of Selfâs assistants wondered âwhat the blank is Self thinking?â I rarely question the quality of Roberts and Townsend and they seem like quality coaches who genuinely care, but sometimes I wonder if Self needs a coach who is not afraid to be fully honest with him in these situations. Sure, itâd be risky at times, but that move was not about confidence and, frankly, was wrong and unfair of Self to do to his own player. I imagine Dok feels he lost the game for them which is not true. The coach is supposed to know limitations and maneuver around them when its crunch time - maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses. Unless there is info we donât know and arent privy to, last nights late game maneuver is possibly the worst D1 coaching decision Iâve ever seen.
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Folks, please tell me why this would not have worked:
- Walkon fouls Doke
- Self puts Mitch in against the walkon : MUA
- Every time Kruger sends the real player to the scorerâs table, Self sends Doke.
- Every time Kruger sends the walkon to the scorerâs table, Self sends Mitch.
Kruger then has to decide: do I poke Doke with a real player or do I stop fouling?
This seems so simple. Instead of playing âyour best playerâ you play the biggest MUA. (By the way @jaybate-1-0 , is MUA the right term? and what does it mean already?)
Comments pleaseâŚ
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@ParisHawk that would have been the logical decision yes.
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HawkChamp said:
BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didnât help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of âme, me, meâ shots, the FTâs and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.
When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.
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@Jayballer54 How does missing free throws over and over help your confidence??
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Before the game yesterday, I posted the concern below related to games even when the other team has the lead. I bet Scott Drew is kicking himself -
@drgnslayr If Iâm an opposing coach, and I see how well Kansas finishes games â even if Iâm up 4 with say three minutes to play â perhaps I just foul Udoka on every KU possession. That is better odds than seeing if DG, Svi and company are going to beat me. Because they most likely will. Foul the opposition on purpose with the lead. Is that a crazy strategy? If Baylor had done that starting at the 2:30 mark, you think they win?
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Barney said:
@Jayballer54 How does missing free throws over and over help your confidence??
Good question. - - -you tell me. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@CRH107 GREAT POINTS. Doke / Self lost us the game.
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@betterfireE If this was truly engineered, and i were the AD, the Chief Engineer would be looking for a new job today - donât give a F if heâs in the Hall of Fame or if he had won 10 NCâs (which he wonât).
His only job is to win basketball games. He gets paid more money in one year that most of us will make (combined) in our lifetimes. If he is engineering losses to supposedly make things better in the long run ( which he never does - one NC, thanks to a hail mary prayer by Chalmers to get us to OT - not good coaching ) then we need somebody else on the bench that wants to win every game.
Iâm not calling for his head, but Iâm tired of stupid ass coaching like this and like i see in late March that cost us wins.
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http://discovermagazine.com/2008/the-body/07-physics-proves-it-everyone-should-shoot-granny-style
Maybe if the name were changed to âStudly Styleâ shooting this way wouldnât be so taboo.
New challenge to the board rats: New name for the Studly Style Free throwâŚMost creative wins membership to the Jelly of the Month Club.
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BeddieKU23 said:
HawkChamp said:
BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didnât help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of âme, me, meâ shots, the FTâs and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.
When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.
Even in spite of a bad shooting night from Devonte, we still could have won the game. Not everyone is going to be on their A+ game every night shooting wise, but the team as a whole did enough to win until Self decided to allow Dok to be in a free throw contest. Heâs paid millions to make the correct decisions, especially about obvious stuff.
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@wissox No great coaches. Just common sense, logic, and strategy.
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By no means am I advocating going completely away from Doke. He is still our best option. But if a team commits to that strategy, we have to adjust. We canât just sit on our hands and hope things turn out okay, because that usually leads to things not turning out okay.
Doke was playing pretty well last night in limited minutes, but that is all overshadowed by the final stretch. You think he went to bed thinking about the dunks he had, or with images of those missed FTs? We have to put him in a position to succeed. If a team commits to that strategy, Doke has to be running the baseline, trying to catch lobs or something. Just standing in the corner eliminates him and clogs the paint because you donât even have to follow him out there.
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HawkChamp said:
BeddieKU23 said:
HawkChamp said:
BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didnât help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of âme, me, meâ shots, the FTâs and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.
When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.
Even in spite of a bad shooting night from Devonte, we still could have won the game. Not everyone is going to be on their A+ game every night shooting wise, but the team as a whole did enough to win until Self decided to allow Dok to be in a free throw contest. Heâs paid millions to make the correct decisions, especially about obvious stuff.
We could/should have won the game despite his bad night I agree with. We won Saturday against Baylor despite another poor shooting night from Graham. In both games Svi & Newman stepped up and we got enough contributions from others. Weâve had maybe a few games all season where the starting 5 played their A+ games. Vick continuing his down-spiral hasnât helped either. But with Vick doing whatever it is heâs doing Newman has stepped up. So we keep missing the teams ceiling because we havenât seen everyone clicking together. Itâs why we are in so many close games because every game its 1-2 starters having an average or below average night.
Iâm certainly not trying to transfer the blame because our coach deserves almost all of it. Just pointing out that I thought Devonteâs poor shooting night was the other big reason the result went the other way.
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@nuleafjhawk Yeah it reminds me of the Michigan game in the Dance some years back. We are up by 3 with 6 or 7 seconds left. Michigan was throwing everything in the basket from everywhere. Yet, when their guard brought the ball across mid court, instead of fouling him, we let him shoot a 27 footer that ties the game. We lose in overtime. Another situation where the coach has got to have discussed with the team before hand. You put them on the line and take your chances. You damn sure do not allow them to shoot for a tie!!!
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The Trea Young saga might get worse. Rumor going around that an article is coming out here in the next week about Self asking Trea and his family, âIf they donât pick KU to please pick OUâ.
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MUA = match up advantage
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I get the strategy and nothing against Kruger, but maybe the whole intentional fouling should be reviewed. Maybe, if the same player is âintentpionallyâ fouled 3 times or more, on 3 consecutive offensive trips, like Doke, maybe a technical foul should incur. Hereâs my concernâŚwhat if this player is in the act of shooting, off balance, or simply gets frustrated. I think to control the game more than controlling the fouls should be a concern. The whole premeditated fouling of a player is going to end really badly for a player. Simply because a coach is telling his kids to âintentionally foul,â ie. Lon Kruger. Get ready, they come to Lawrence. I say we rough Trae Young up on every shot he takes, and HARD too. I donât want to hurt him, just make him think before he puts up a deep trey.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I would be the first to admit I donât know all the rules, so I have a question. My husband says that , instead of putting Doke in a corner on those last couple of plays, what if Coach Self had put him in the backcourt? If an opposing player had to go all the way into the backcourt to commit the foul on DOKE, the foul would have to be called intentional, and we would be awarded two shots AND THE BALL. Moreover, any player who committed two intentional fouls would be ejected from the game. Could this possibly be true? Could Self possibly have missed something this simple? If you know, I would appreciate a reply.
