Bill Self - cost us the game?
-
@DanR Doke gained no confidence from this. At best, his confidence is not 100% destroyed.
-
@CRH107 that take does not take into account the pressure that was built by a failure to adjust.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 now that’s a mystery. Not adapting to end game strategy is stupidity.
-
@Big-Clyde52 hopefully our coaching staff would adjust in the future. If not, an Asst Coach needs to put his job on the line slapping sense into Self on the sideline.
-
@Bwag a strategy the refs were keen on too. I mean how much more clear was it that the refs threw the game?
-
@hawkmoon2020 I had this in the loss column like the WV game. But who’d figure we’d give it due to coaching when victory was achievable at 2 min mark with an adaption to other teams coaching strategy?
-
@chriz no. just thinking how the smallest things in games (and life) can prove to be more meaningful down the road than they appeared at the present time. Might have prevented that big 3 and had another foul on Doke and he could have fouled out of the game before being poked 5 times.
The Hawks lose championship this year by one game, this game will be very bitter to look back upon giving the circumstances and coaches decision.
I am still amazed about the foul discrepancies. Maybe I should “go ask Fran about it.”
-
This was adapting to the refs and how they were calling it. Which is called having the refs in your pocket. Which is cheating.
-
@chriz I don’t see that master plan materializing.
-
A lot of great coaches on this site!
-
nuleafjhawk said:
@DanR You play through your issues in practice. You try to win the F-ing games.
We could afford to lose this one. And I think this was engineered. But who cares. Vick, Doke, everyone. We need to get better when we’re tired in the second half.
We had pretty good defense. I wonder if Garrett is more important in the lineup than Vick at this point. Better defense and better handle.
-
Partially. He was a contributing factor but I don’t put it all on Bill Self. Self should have switched Doke and Lightfoot after the first time Kruger decidedt o intentionally foul. But, Azubuike is the one who missed the free throws, he also bears some of the blame.
Additionally DG shot 4/19 from the field and missed a lot of shots that he is capable of making. If he makes 2 or 3 more of his FGA and shoots like 6/19 or 7/19 (still bad), then it puts KU in a much better position to close out the game.
Overall just a disappointing loss and a game that KU should have had.
-
Trae Young was great, though.
Lon Kruger is a good coach.
Water is wet, etc.
-
Never in a million years did I think I’d be yelling “Put in Mitch!”
-
Who would have thought Self would blow a conference game. The Big-12 is his sacred ground.
I’ve never seen a coaching mistake that blatant from him in all the years. If there are others that top this I’m drawing a blank at the moment.
Its put up or shut up time for both the staff and Doke. Both are forced to deal with the issue now. Both have to game-plan a way to improve. They helped Josh Jackson last season with his preparation and mentality. They must do the same with Doke now. It’s hard to believe we all witnessed this last night
-
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
-
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn’t help
-
@KirkIsMyHinrich I would suggest that Doke bears NONE of the blame. It is this coaching staff that has permitted him to shoot free throws like this. That is permitting a player to be in a clear and distinct position to fail. What would one think if that staff permitted Doke to shoot hook shots on his free throw attempts? I personally think this is worse. A hook shot at least is acceptable in form. This abomination is not. If the staff puts a player in a position to succeed, that’s really all you can ask. This is the opposite. Self took responsibility for the result, but of course the supposed “reporters” don’t ever ask any tough or direct questions related to the clear and obvious “form” issues – the “why” is this happening inquiry.
-
JayHawkFanToo said:
And even after they showed it on the scoreboard screen the fans kept booing; pretty ignorant fans.
Haha, I was hoping Dok would flatten Young. It would’ve been doubly good for KU. No Young or Dok down the stretch.
-
@HighEliteMajor And this will continue to be a real problem going forward. In close games, other coaches will surely use this tactic. Which, if Doke does not get better (as you say, how can he with that form?) will cause Self to have to take him out at the 5 min. mark or so depending on where we are on team fouls. Then, of course, teams will attack Mitch inside.
-
Self should have gone back to Mitch. When we talk about confidence, we have to look at two things.
First, does this help or hurt Doke’s confidence when he’s struggling? I say no, but that’s debatable because Doke at least knows that Self will stick with him.
Second, does this help or hurt Mitch’s confidence? Mitch is sitting there seeing what OU’s strategy is. He sees Doke missing FTs and the lead dwindling. And yet Self doesn’t look his way to stem the tide. Does Self have that little confidence in Lightfoot to at least make OU play ball instead of a foul-a-thon? And Mitch was playing some solid ball, too. Yet Self still wouldn’t go to him down the stretch in a critical game.
There’s two elements of confidence here. Even if Doke’s confidence wasn’t shaken, do we know what kind of message that sent to Lightfoot?
-
Fortunately for us, no other teams will scout this game to realize we are handing over a great tool for them to win. ha
What we can’t do is go negative on Doke. Hey… as I’ve been saying… he has improved more than any other big man we have ever had in such a short time. IMHO, more so than JoJo because JoJo brought more tools with him to Lawrence.
Believe me… one or two more losses from “poke a Doke” and we’ll see changes… if not immediately after this loss.
I’m thinking Doke is already asking Self to find a way to help him with his FTs. Our staff can’t just let him go off on himself and do this. He needs help from others.
-
BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn’t help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
-
HighEliteMajor said:
@KirkIsMyHinrich I would suggest that Doke bears NONE of the blame. It is this coaching staff that has permitted him to shoot free throws like this. That is permitting a player to be in a clear and distinct position to fail. What would one think if that staff permitted Doke to shoot hook shots on his free throw attempts? I personally think this is worse. A hook shot at least is acceptable in form. This abomination is not. If the staff puts a player in a position to succeed, that’s really all you can ask. This is the opposite. Self took responsibility for the result, but of course the supposed “reporters” don’t ever ask any tough or direct questions related to the clear and obvious “form” issues – the “why” is this happening inquiry.
I wonder if any of Self’s assistants wondered “what the blank is Self thinking?” I rarely question the quality of Roberts and Townsend and they seem like quality coaches who genuinely care, but sometimes I wonder if Self needs a coach who is not afraid to be fully honest with him in these situations. Sure, it’d be risky at times, but that move was not about confidence and, frankly, was wrong and unfair of Self to do to his own player. I imagine Dok feels he lost the game for them which is not true. The coach is supposed to know limitations and maneuver around them when its crunch time - maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses. Unless there is info we don’t know and arent privy to, last nights late game maneuver is possibly the worst D1 coaching decision I’ve ever seen.
-
Folks, please tell me why this would not have worked:
- Walkon fouls Doke
- Self puts Mitch in against the walkon : MUA
- Every time Kruger sends the real player to the scorer’s table, Self sends Doke.
- Every time Kruger sends the walkon to the scorer’s table, Self sends Mitch.
Kruger then has to decide: do I poke Doke with a real player or do I stop fouling?
This seems so simple. Instead of playing “your best player” you play the biggest MUA. (By the way @jaybate-1-0 , is MUA the right term? and what does it mean already?)
Comments please…
-
@ParisHawk that would have been the logical decision yes.
-
HawkChamp said:
BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn’t help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of “me, me, me” shots, the FT’s and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.
When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.
-
@Jayballer54 How does missing free throws over and over help your confidence??
-
Before the game yesterday, I posted the concern below related to games even when the other team has the lead. I bet Scott Drew is kicking himself -
@drgnslayr If I’m an opposing coach, and I see how well Kansas finishes games – even if I’m up 4 with say three minutes to play – perhaps I just foul Udoka on every KU possession. That is better odds than seeing if DG, Svi and company are going to beat me. Because they most likely will. Foul the opposition on purpose with the lead. Is that a crazy strategy? If Baylor had done that starting at the 2:30 mark, you think they win?
-
Barney said:
@Jayballer54 How does missing free throws over and over help your confidence??
Good question. - - -you tell me. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
@CRH107 GREAT POINTS. Doke / Self lost us the game.
-
@betterfireE If this was truly engineered, and i were the AD, the Chief Engineer would be looking for a new job today - don’t give a F if he’s in the Hall of Fame or if he had won 10 NC’s (which he won’t).
His only job is to win basketball games. He gets paid more money in one year that most of us will make (combined) in our lifetimes. If he is engineering losses to supposedly make things better in the long run ( which he never does - one NC, thanks to a hail mary prayer by Chalmers to get us to OT - not good coaching ) then we need somebody else on the bench that wants to win every game.
I’m not calling for his head, but I’m tired of stupid ass coaching like this and like i see in late March that cost us wins.
-
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/the-body/07-physics-proves-it-everyone-should-shoot-granny-style
Maybe if the name were changed to “Studly Style” shooting this way wouldn’t be so taboo.
New challenge to the board rats: New name for the Studly Style Free throw…Most creative wins membership to the Jelly of the Month Club.
-
BeddieKU23 said:
HawkChamp said:
BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn’t help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of “me, me, me” shots, the FT’s and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.
When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.
Even in spite of a bad shooting night from Devonte, we still could have won the game. Not everyone is going to be on their A+ game every night shooting wise, but the team as a whole did enough to win until Self decided to allow Dok to be in a free throw contest. He’s paid millions to make the correct decisions, especially about obvious stuff.
-
-
@wissox No great coaches. Just common sense, logic, and strategy.
-
By no means am I advocating going completely away from Doke. He is still our best option. But if a team commits to that strategy, we have to adjust. We can’t just sit on our hands and hope things turn out okay, because that usually leads to things not turning out okay.
Doke was playing pretty well last night in limited minutes, but that is all overshadowed by the final stretch. You think he went to bed thinking about the dunks he had, or with images of those missed FTs? We have to put him in a position to succeed. If a team commits to that strategy, Doke has to be running the baseline, trying to catch lobs or something. Just standing in the corner eliminates him and clogs the paint because you don’t even have to follow him out there.
-
HawkChamp said:
BeddieKU23 said:
HawkChamp said:
BeddieKU23 said:
wissox said:
Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.
Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn’t help
And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).
Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of “me, me, me” shots, the FT’s and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.
When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.
Even in spite of a bad shooting night from Devonte, we still could have won the game. Not everyone is going to be on their A+ game every night shooting wise, but the team as a whole did enough to win until Self decided to allow Dok to be in a free throw contest. He’s paid millions to make the correct decisions, especially about obvious stuff.
We could/should have won the game despite his bad night I agree with. We won Saturday against Baylor despite another poor shooting night from Graham. In both games Svi & Newman stepped up and we got enough contributions from others. We’ve had maybe a few games all season where the starting 5 played their A+ games. Vick continuing his down-spiral hasn’t helped either. But with Vick doing whatever it is he’s doing Newman has stepped up. So we keep missing the teams ceiling because we haven’t seen everyone clicking together. It’s why we are in so many close games because every game its 1-2 starters having an average or below average night.
I’m certainly not trying to transfer the blame because our coach deserves almost all of it. Just pointing out that I thought Devonte’s poor shooting night was the other big reason the result went the other way.
-
@nuleafjhawk Yeah it reminds me of the Michigan game in the Dance some years back. We are up by 3 with 6 or 7 seconds left. Michigan was throwing everything in the basket from everywhere. Yet, when their guard brought the ball across mid court, instead of fouling him, we let him shoot a 27 footer that ties the game. We lose in overtime. Another situation where the coach has got to have discussed with the team before hand. You put them on the line and take your chances. You damn sure do not allow them to shoot for a tie!!!
-
The Trea Young saga might get worse. Rumor going around that an article is coming out here in the next week about Self asking Trea and his family, “If they don’t pick KU to please pick OU”.
-
MUA = match up advantage
-
I get the strategy and nothing against Kruger, but maybe the whole intentional fouling should be reviewed. Maybe, if the same player is “intentpionally” fouled 3 times or more, on 3 consecutive offensive trips, like Doke, maybe a technical foul should incur. Here’s my concern…what if this player is in the act of shooting, off balance, or simply gets frustrated. I think to control the game more than controlling the fouls should be a concern. The whole premeditated fouling of a player is going to end really badly for a player. Simply because a coach is telling his kids to “intentionally foul,” ie. Lon Kruger. Get ready, they come to Lawrence. I say we rough Trae Young up on every shot he takes, and HARD too. I don’t want to hurt him, just make him think before he puts up a deep trey.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 I would be the first to admit I don’t know all the rules, so I have a question. My husband says that , instead of putting Doke in a corner on those last couple of plays, what if Coach Self had put him in the backcourt? If an opposing player had to go all the way into the backcourt to commit the foul on DOKE, the foul would have to be called intentional, and we would be awarded two shots AND THE BALL. Moreover, any player who committed two intentional fouls would be ejected from the game. Could this possibly be true? Could Self possibly have missed something this simple? If you know, I would appreciate a reply.
-
Trae makes his free throws. Better foul real hard for that strategy to work.
-
I think you are all worrying too much. The next time a coach starts the poke-a-Doke, you will see a completely different strategy from Coach Self. Let them plan the full poke-a-Doke and be surprised.
-
Self is human.
I suspect he was never in the situation before How many coaches since Wilt retired have been? Not many. I watched Wilt many NBA seasons and never saw a coach pull a surprise move like that.
Lots of coaches foul bad FT shooters repeatedly with starters and subs (e.g., Self used massive fouling with the C5 a few years back), but Lonnie was more clever. He waited till late in the game and stuck a nobody in to do it. Self gambled staying big to get a rebound to keep possession, or get a FT from Doke. He figured Doke at 1 of 6 would likely make one, because he averages 43%. He thought the probability was Doke was due to make one. It was either a rational bet or he just got surprised.
It’s not a crime to get surprised and fail to counter in the moment. No coach ALWAYS makes the right move. Surprise has happened many times to all coaches and generals. You try to learn as quickly as possible and adapt or stand pat as the best guess response based on circumstances and what is known and correctly analysed. But sometimes the possibility occurs instead of the possibility.
Self has accrued several such events and unsuccessful responses, despite a ton of successful responses, also.
-
Self was flummoxed by Hoiberg’s 4-1 the first time he saw it. He stayed double post too long.
-
Shaka’s spread offense with long cuts fooled him into guarding the long cuts and exhausting his team, after a game of guarding Princeton cuts.
-
Ben Howland’s hack’n slap fooled him. He didn’t start riding the refs soon enough to get it stopped.
-
He didn’t anticipate Mike Anderson’s press the first time either. Guys were not slicing into seams.
-
People forget that Huggins’ weird East Ohio High school offense at KSU and Beasley gave Self fits.
-
Izzo’s doubling Sherron top of key took away his drive and Self never found a good counter that game.
And so on.
But my god! KU only lost by five on an opponents floor on an incredibly bad shooting night by two of its offensive cornerstones: Devonte and La Cobra!
Plus Doke had a ridulously bad FT night even for him at 1-8. Normally he makes 4.3 of 10, which is 3.2 of 8. On a normal night, even with Kruger’s cutesy move on Doke late, and Self standing pat, KU would have gotten 2 more points out of Doke; that would have made it 85-82.
With normal nights from Devonte and LaCobra KU would have likely scored another 10- 15 points! That would have made it either 92-85, or 97-85.
Self and KU can beat OU next time in AFH without Doke getting better at FTs! KU will win if it just shoots to its average. It will blow OU out on a hot night.
All Self really needed was a split last weekend. And he got it. In Norman, he was just trying to steal a road win. He almost had it, but a smart coach threw him a curveball and he couldn’t get his bat on it. But if Kruger throws it again, he will have something ready.
It’s how he is.
It’s what he does.
It’s all he does.
And he absolutely will not stop till he beats you.
He is The Coachinator!
-
-
Buffer 1
-
@jaybate-1.0 I accept all you say, however my objective was not so much to blame Self for the past but to make a suggestion for the future.
Blatant late-game fouling by a fouling specialist who can’t do anything else can be countered. Self only has to counter it once, then coaches will stop doing it because it is a “dick move” unless it works.
Countering blatant late-game fouling will take psychological pressure off Doke too.
-
Oh I just thought of a funnier solution.
Doke’s assignment on offense is to keep as far away from the walk-on as possible, period.
Imagine the guy chasing Doke all over the court trying desperately to foul him while the teams are playing 4 on 4. The burden would be on Kruger to stop the circus, and in case of a foul Self could easily argue it was intentional. (I assume off the ball fouls can be intentional?)
Even the East Coast media would have to talk about that game…
P.S. My ideas are only to counter fouling specialists and make the other team beat us using its normal players.
-
“From a technique standpoint, we’re not going to change his shot in February,” Self said.
OK, great Coach
