Vent Here....
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What gets to me is our guard failure in these games. That isn’t going to be fixed by suddenly getting two post players. I’m mostly talking about defense.
There is the argument that our guards have to protect against the drive to save Doke from fouls. But… they didn’t do that either!
All areas of our defense sucked. Perimeter shot defense. Sucked. Defense against the drive. Sucked. Transition defense. Sucked.
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I was wondering if our defensive switching was actually playing against us yesterday. We tended to switch any screen around the perimeter. I was wondering if this group shouldn’t be switching and should be fighting over screens instead. ASU made shots, some from Wichita but they were mostly all unguarded shots, no hands in the face, no hard close with a hand in the face. I’ve seen a lot of comments about ASU being lucky to make some shots. I would disagree and point to any of their prior wins. They shoot freely whenever.
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In the ASU game, we lost because their guards were much quicker than ours. Whether that is always the reality, or we just didn’t come prepared, it was evident in this game.
I think they were too quick for us to fight through the screens. I thought we did the right thing.
But… we never defended against the drive. We were always totally out of position to do so. You can tell that when you see a defense that doesn’t even come close to be able to try to draw charges. Heck… we never had one of our players anywhere near being in front of their driving guards.
In order to defend against the drive, our guards need to get up there (in their grills) and HEDGE against their driving priorities. I can’t think of one drive they made to their left! Did you notice that? Where was our scouting? Why didn’t we hedge for the right side drive? Get up in their grills and challenge their crossovers. Few college players can execute a decent crossover. Very few.
If you replay the game, you will see our guards pulling back on their guards and with ZERO hedging. The very WORST strategy for stopping drives! The WORST! Their guards could then pick up speed, while our defenders are standing flatfooted, and then only need to curl around them to finish.
Did you notice their drives almost always ended up being “blow bys?” Their guards would finish near the rim and not even be challenged because we didn’t have a defender who could meet them at their release points.
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Udoka is averaging less than 2.5 fouls per game and has not fouled out in any game; he has not been in real foul trouble yet.
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@Blown I guess I haven’t seen that quite yet. No more so than any of the other starters. Nobody can make a layup or attack the rim effectively. Svi, Vick and DG all take terrible 3s.
Honestly, to me, it has looked like everyone is just playing for their draft stock.
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The biggest problem KU has offensively is that we can’t get easy shots consistently. If the jumpers are falling, life is good, and we can probably run any team in the country out of the building.
But if the shot goes cold, we don’t really have a backup plan to score. Doke isn’t a consistent post scorer, so if we are shooting blanks from outside, it gets really hard to make things happen on the offensive end.
Defensively, this isn’t a team full of great or even above average defenders. Devonte is above average, but in his role playing 38 mpg at the point, he’s probably closer to average because he has to save something on that end. Vick is above average, but he’s playing out of position at the four, so he can’t always take advantage of that. Unlike Josh, he isn’t necessarily built to handle the bigger players all the time because he’s giving up 2-3 inches every night.
Newman and Svi are average-ish, Doke is foul prone, and Mitch can’t bang with most 5’s. Garrett is also above average, but he doesn’t help us offensively right now because he can’t space the floor with his shot. Clay Young is undersized, but can steal some minutes inside against lesser bigs, but there is a risk of exposing him too much and having him become ineffective as the season wears on and a good scouting report on him starts to circulate.
Thankfully, these problems can be fixed, and the solutions aren’t far away. Sam Cunliffe should help in the backcourt right away because he should help stagger the minutes a little bit more so Devonte and Lagerald aren’t playing nearly every minute. That lets our two best perimeter defenders sell out a little bit more on that end - the difference between playing hard for 32 minutes and playing hard for 38 minutes is enormous.
The other, less certain fix, is of course Billy Preston. Preston is bigger and stronger than Mitch, and more skilled than Doke. He changes how we can score because he can go get buckets on the block if necessary. He commands a double team inside.
Let’s think back to the 2006 team that got knocked out in the first round of the NCAA tournament by Bradley. That team was the same one that the following year went to the Elite Eight, and two years later won the whole thing. So why did that group get bounced in Round 1 as freshmen, then go all the way to the Elite Eight as sophomores? Darrell Arthur.
Not because Shady was the best player on those teams - he was probably the third best. But he changed the way that team could play because he could post up and generate easy shots when guys weren’t hitting jumpers. He could draw fouls and get guys on the line (and in foul trouble). Right now, this team lacks that in the same way that the 2006 team lacked that. Billy Preston’s skill set changes this team from the 2006 first round eliminated Hawks into the 2007 Elite Eight version.
The only question is whether he ever sees the floor for this team. If he doesn’t, this team will run hot and cold with its jumpshot. If he does, we can go back to discussing the weather in San Antonio in late March and early April.
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@justanotherfan TLDR; Flawed roster
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I disagree with everyone - the first five minutes showed how good out guards can be defensively. Honestly, that was the best five minute stretch of defense I’ve seen since 08. The real question is, why did they do it for only five minutes?
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Hawk8086 said:
@JayHawkFanToo It looked like they had a fire lit under them when they ran up the 15-2 lead. Didn’t it? I was impressed with their hustle and fire for a couple of minutes…then they just let up.
Sometimes a hot start is the worst thing for a team. Makes them complacent. Of course a cold start, like the Washington game causes doubt and leads to what happened there, so I’m confused now!
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Maybe the guards can sell out & defend the 3 as a primary defensive goal. Good guards are going around us anyway. Let them take mid range jumpers which no one in college seems to want to take consistently. The last two losses we gave up so many killer threes.
This group is going to have to settle defensively by giving something up. Just not athletic or deep enough to maintain 40 min of quality defense.
Maybe we can stop the rediculous turnovers too.
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The defense is terrible, especially at the guard spots which really isn’t surprising when you look at how bad we were last year on defense with two highly athletic guys in Mason and Jackson. Our players won’t look like D1 players when playing a good a team. Malik Newman maybe the biggest recruiting flop in history (top 5 National). No way he plays in the NBA no chance, I bet he rides the pine a year from now and transfers. Lagerald must turn into the dog that Self is talking about. He has all the tools to do so. Unless Billy can go and he is a Trob type player no way we make it outta the first weekend in March without hitting a high number of threes. If Self makes this team B12 champions, he is the best coach to ever live. Question, Will Bill Self still have more B12 titles than loses at home bye the end of the season? I honestly think not, I could see us losing 3 more home games, this team will be Selfs second double digit loss team. All this being said we are due a down year. The streak has to end at some point.
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@JayHawkFanToo Sosinki is the first Jayhawk basketball player to be 0-2 ever?
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@approxinfinity I bet we have started 0-2 at some point in our 100 and some odd years. I know we have started 1-2 several times.
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@approxinfinity @kjayhawks Guys, guys … the last time we started 0-2 was in the 1987-88 season. When we won the national championship.
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Close but not quite correct.
KU beat Chaminade at the Maui invitational to start the season 1-0 and then lost the next 2 games to Iowa and Illinois at the same tournament for a 1-2 record. It did go to win the NCAA though.
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Considering KU seldom loses 2 games in a row, much less at home, I am pretty sure it has not happened in the last 30+ years…unless KU had a transfer that started just before on of those rare occasions.
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@JayHawkFanToo Darn it. I trusted my memory again. Should have used that simple thing called google.
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@wissox but it proves they are capable of it and that’s actually the most important part.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
That was familiarity with AFH and cockiness. After Arizona State settled the team lost its poise.
So hustling and playing with great energy is being cocky? You and I must have watched two different games. I watched the KU game on Sunday December 10th at 1 where they played how we thought they could play in the first five minutes. How about you?
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Horribly disappointed and we are not use to this, but the good news is that its really early in the season. They have time to decide what they want to do going forward. They need some hunger. They need some stark, raving, mad dog starving desire to win. These are some nasty lumps, but we just learned momentum can swing really fast.
They’re capable, now the question is can they play up to their much higher capability? We shall see.
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KU made its first 5 shots and took an early lead but after shots stop going in the wheels fell off the wagon and the team lost its poise and concentration and not only missed shots, it had silly turnovers.
After KU went up 15-2 three and a half minutes into the game, it was outscored by Arizona State by 23 points the rest of the game. You are telling me the team played with energy and confidence for all of 3-1/2 minutes?
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I don’t like this alternate universe where WSU is ranked 10 places ahead of Kansas. There’s something dirty and disgusting about this. And one more note to Self and the team:
DON’T LOSE AT HOME ANY MORE. IT TICKS ME OFF.
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@JayHawkFanToo nope I said five minutes. I know it doesn’t fit the current narrative but there was a definite difference in the next thirty five minutes energy and intensity wise. A friend watching it with me saw the same thing.
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@HawkChamp said
nope I said five minutes. I know it doesn’t fit the current narrative but there was a definite difference in the next thirty five minutes energy and intensity wise. A friend watching it with me saw the same thing.
Between the 3-1/2 minute (mine) and 5 minute mark (yours) KU was outscore 8-0, are you still saying it played well in those 1-1/2 minutes? I think not.
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@JayHawkFanToo the point still stands regardless of how many minutes or seconds.
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Didn’t I say the same thing? I just called the first 3-1/2 minutes familiarity with AFH and cockiness, after that it was a complete collapse and KU was outscored by 23 points.
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@JayHawkFanToo how did you come up with cockiness? That is the completely incorrect adjective.
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How 'bout confidence? ''Tis the season
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@Crimsonorblue22 to most everyone else, confidence is the correct word.
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I realize that. Doke wasn’t anywhere near their drivers when they finished at the hole. He couldn’t challenge their shots because he wasn’t close to them.
I just don’t want to hear our guards use an excuse claiming they had to lay off guarding the trey shot in order to protect Doke from penetrating drives.
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Svi’s wingspan is 6’5” no wonder he can’t defend anyone or protect his dribble. The t-Rex comparison isn’t too far off. Good thing he’s skinny, he’d have a hard time wiping his kester if he had a belly.
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We’re picking the bones off the flesh. We’re not going to be an NBA All-star team. Still, I think this team can be a real good team, warts and all. Cunliffe will help keep the guys fresh on the perimeter, and should play good defense when he’s in there. Now we have a pivot if Newman or Svi is struggling. De Sousa is a classic old style 4 with elite rebounding skills. He will help us when Doke gets in foul trouble. Two extra players in the rotation will allow us to play more aggressively. All is not lost - keep the faith.
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If De Sousa comes in, I wonder what offense we will run.
Self just mentioned “making changes” and it sounds like he wants to slow down the pace and go back to “BAD BALL.” Did anyone else catch this?
I get it. Our guards are playing ZERO defense! We’ve been putting all our emphasis on offense. So… kill the offense!
If I squint my eyes and replay our last two games, it looks like we have 4 or 5 BGreenes out there!
This isn’t my biggest worry (even though it is horrible). My biggest worry is about what I saw from Devonte for the past 3 years. Consistency was an issue. He can’t be inconsistent and lead this team. It seems like he had a couple of hot games, then he let off the gas. Hot and cold will always be there… hustle is a constant! Using your head… is a constant!
Devonte, alone, needed to step up in these games and put the team on his back. He could have shredded both of these teams with his drive, which might have helped our guys get motivated on both sides of the court.
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@drgnslayr I kind of want Bill to go full bad ball for a little while. Force the guards to drive and learn how to finish in the lane. After that, slowly loosen the rains and open the the trey again. But the first thing we have to do is prove to ourselves that we can score inside, even with a 4 guard lineup.
That and then just play hellacious D. Get these guys flying all over the court and create some havoc.
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Yeah… there is no reason why we should be playing defense this lousy. We have enough team speed and should be showing high energy on d. We should be a Top 10 defensive team, especially concerning steals.
The energy just isn’t there. And the spacing and hedging has been extremely horrible!
I hate to say it… but I’m with you… it may be necessary to go for BAD BALL and grind games.
Giving up 95 points at home to ASU?
What a friggin’ joke!
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Referenced this on today’s @KUsports Hour… For those melting down about KU’s defense, last year’s was actually worse.
Bill Self last year: “I mean this is without question probably — not probably — it is the poorest defensive team that we’ve ever had.” Scott chasen ku sports reporter
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Maybe what we thought we had in team speed isn’t good enough. Washington and ASU have certainly cast doubt in our guys quickness abilities. I do think some of it is attributed to guys playing too many minutes. Vick & Graham have sat a total of 5 minutes in the past 3 games. I suppose that could be beneficial to them later in the year but its clear we need more balancing of the minutes. Cunliffe hopefully helps that as long as Newman comes back relatively soon. Just adding 1 post player could have a huge affect on minutes and therefore guys energy in games etc. This two game slump (3 if we count Cuse) could all be the consequence of having 7 guys and tired legs
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@BeddieKU23 I think we have lulled ourselves to sleep by switching too much. We need to start hedging and trapping off of hedges like we do when we play 2 bigs. Then everyone else rotates hard and fast.
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Presumptuous of you to state you know what is the correct word I wanted to write. I wrote cockiness not confidence and it is exactly what I meant; I even posted a link to the definition to point out the meaning I wanted to convey. We both have “opinions” which are just that, “opinions” and not facts. We both stated “opinions” and while different I did not tell you yours was wrong…too much to expect you to respect mine?
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I mentioned that to someone that the constant switching made it seem like lazy defense. We got caught flat footed against quick guards who figured out how to attack the defense. Who knows if the alternative fighting through screens and sticking with their man would have made a difference but I would like to see something change because what we got isn’t working.
Anyone else notice there are times Graham gets switched on the big in the lane? If a team starts recognizing that ridiculous switch we will pay for it. I really don’t know what we are trying to accomplish with some of the switches
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Spot on concerning too many minutes for some of our guys.
I think Sam will be a big help in relief of some guard minutes.
ASU guards looked a million times faster than our guards. But that is just this situation, this game. I don’t like to give our guys any excuses, but too many minutes can give these guys rubber legs. And then what motivation did our guys have to play well against ASU? But ASU had plenty of motivation to play hard against us.
The real problem we had in this game, which resulted in making the ASU guards look must faster than ours, was caused by our guards defending horribly. Very poor technique. Spacing was horrible and no hedging against the obvious right side drives. We allowed their guards to pick up big driving speed and then SWOOSH they were past our guards!
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I like your concept of falling asleep because of our high ball switches.
It allows our guys to play soft. It also allows our opponents to play harder because we aren’t getting physical with them.
In both the last two games, we were outplayed. Totally.
We will have to learn to ADAPT DURING games. We can bash Duke and Coach K all we want, but hard to bash them about in-game changes. You see them call time out and then you see them try something else. Typically, we don’t do that at Kansas. We have a kind of “elitist” attitude that we should never have to change our tactics… just keep grinding away at them and they will eventually work. This isn’t just a Self issue. This is a Kansas issue.
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@drgnslayr I hate high ball switches. It let’s the offense dictate where they want to go and the pace they want to go there at.
It also hurts your help defense when one of your help defenders is running away as soon as the drive starts. There has been a pattern the last two games. First, create a switch. 2nd, immediately follow that switch with a REALLY high ball screen. That takes two help defenders out of the play almost immediately. 3rd, drive the ball and attempt to beat Doke to the rim.
It has resulted in too many layups that aren’t being contested.
That same thing can play out differently if we hedge immediately instead of switch. First, when they do a little handoff up top, instead of the switch it triggers a rotation. If the defender can’t fight through the handoff, and the player has an open drive, help defense plays off and we force a 3. If we rotate correctly, the man beat by the handoff will be rotating to defend the guy shooting the 3. He will probably be late and we will give up an open 3, but it shouldn’t be a comfortable 3 pointer. This also leaves Doke at the rim for protection if the driver doesn’t kick it out for 3.
If the defender doesn’t get caught up in the handoff and forces the REALLY high ball screen, we can hedge and trap like we used to, they will have to make three timely passes to get it to a wide open guy.
If you have 5 - 6’8 guys who can guard everyone, sure switching makes sense. Otherwise, hedging is the way to go.
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Look I get this a venting topic. Yet already looking to next year? Really? I know we are all fans and just want to win. Yet ask yourself this real question? What does KU basketball program mean to you?
Ever year KU defies logic. They are an adidas school trying to take on the Nike empire. Year after year they deliver. Oh they fall short of our glorious expectations. Yet they achieve greatness even if they fall shot of what us fan really want.
Yea it’s not looking good on a National championship this year. However they are still our Jayhawks. Gentleman and ladies this isn’t professional basketball we are talking about here. We are talking about kids here. Kids that chose to be a Jayhawk. To play in the holy grail of all basketball. ((((The Allen field house))))) Sure they lost at home and your upset, yet how do you think these kids feel?
So Young to face such disappointment in letting down their fans and history.
And all you can say is? (I can’t wait till next year) really?
These are kids that chose to take on the mantle of Jayhawks. No easy burden.
Bite your tongues my friends.
Oh I want to say so much more but I’m going to bite my tongue. No matter what happens this season these KU kids slash Jayhawks deserve our love and fandom.
Suck up Jayhawks fans. KU basketball isn’t just about winning. It’s about creating men.
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Sorry for the bad grammar. Maybe one to many beers.
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@DoubleDD You’re grammer, ain’t that bad. Its much goodly.
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@DoubleDD Every year we defy logic? Right, how does a team with so much talent avoid making the final four?
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@HighEliteMajor This is painfully true. When you look at the talent and winning % you would anticipate at least 5 more F4 and maybe 7-10 since mid 90s.
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@Fightsongwriter Just in comparison to other programs, since Self has been here - UNC 5 Final Fours, Duke 3 FFs, UK 4 FFs, MSU 4 FFs, Louisville 3 FFs, UConn 3 FFs, Florida 3 FFs, Butler 2 FFs, Wisconsin 2 FFs, Ohio St. 2 FFs, Syracuse 2 FFs.
