Vent Here....
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Maybe the guards can sell out & defend the 3 as a primary defensive goal. Good guards are going around us anyway. Let them take mid range jumpers which no one in college seems to want to take consistently. The last two losses we gave up so many killer threes.
This group is going to have to settle defensively by giving something up. Just not athletic or deep enough to maintain 40 min of quality defense.
Maybe we can stop the rediculous turnovers too.
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The defense is terrible, especially at the guard spots which really isn’t surprising when you look at how bad we were last year on defense with two highly athletic guys in Mason and Jackson. Our players won’t look like D1 players when playing a good a team. Malik Newman maybe the biggest recruiting flop in history (top 5 National). No way he plays in the NBA no chance, I bet he rides the pine a year from now and transfers. Lagerald must turn into the dog that Self is talking about. He has all the tools to do so. Unless Billy can go and he is a Trob type player no way we make it outta the first weekend in March without hitting a high number of threes. If Self makes this team B12 champions, he is the best coach to ever live. Question, Will Bill Self still have more B12 titles than loses at home bye the end of the season? I honestly think not, I could see us losing 3 more home games, this team will be Selfs second double digit loss team. All this being said we are due a down year. The streak has to end at some point.
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@JayHawkFanToo Sosinki is the first Jayhawk basketball player to be 0-2 ever?
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@approxinfinity I bet we have started 0-2 at some point in our 100 and some odd years. I know we have started 1-2 several times.
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@approxinfinity @kjayhawks Guys, guys … the last time we started 0-2 was in the 1987-88 season. When we won the national championship.
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Close but not quite correct.
KU beat Chaminade at the Maui invitational to start the season 1-0 and then lost the next 2 games to Iowa and Illinois at the same tournament for a 1-2 record. It did go to win the NCAA though.
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Considering KU seldom loses 2 games in a row, much less at home, I am pretty sure it has not happened in the last 30+ years…unless KU had a transfer that started just before on of those rare occasions.
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@JayHawkFanToo Darn it. I trusted my memory again. Should have used that simple thing called google.
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@wissox but it proves they are capable of it and that’s actually the most important part.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
That was familiarity with AFH and cockiness. After Arizona State settled the team lost its poise.
So hustling and playing with great energy is being cocky? You and I must have watched two different games. I watched the KU game on Sunday December 10th at 1 where they played how we thought they could play in the first five minutes. How about you?
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Horribly disappointed and we are not use to this, but the good news is that its really early in the season. They have time to decide what they want to do going forward. They need some hunger. They need some stark, raving, mad dog starving desire to win. These are some nasty lumps, but we just learned momentum can swing really fast.
They’re capable, now the question is can they play up to their much higher capability? We shall see.
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KU made its first 5 shots and took an early lead but after shots stop going in the wheels fell off the wagon and the team lost its poise and concentration and not only missed shots, it had silly turnovers.
After KU went up 15-2 three and a half minutes into the game, it was outscored by Arizona State by 23 points the rest of the game. You are telling me the team played with energy and confidence for all of 3-1/2 minutes?
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I don’t like this alternate universe where WSU is ranked 10 places ahead of Kansas. There’s something dirty and disgusting about this. And one more note to Self and the team:
DON’T LOSE AT HOME ANY MORE. IT TICKS ME OFF.
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@JayHawkFanToo nope I said five minutes. I know it doesn’t fit the current narrative but there was a definite difference in the next thirty five minutes energy and intensity wise. A friend watching it with me saw the same thing.
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@HawkChamp said
nope I said five minutes. I know it doesn’t fit the current narrative but there was a definite difference in the next thirty five minutes energy and intensity wise. A friend watching it with me saw the same thing.
Between the 3-1/2 minute (mine) and 5 minute mark (yours) KU was outscore 8-0, are you still saying it played well in those 1-1/2 minutes? I think not.
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@JayHawkFanToo the point still stands regardless of how many minutes or seconds.
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Didn’t I say the same thing? I just called the first 3-1/2 minutes familiarity with AFH and cockiness, after that it was a complete collapse and KU was outscored by 23 points.
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@JayHawkFanToo how did you come up with cockiness? That is the completely incorrect adjective.
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How 'bout confidence? ''Tis the season
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@Crimsonorblue22 to most everyone else, confidence is the correct word.
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I realize that. Doke wasn’t anywhere near their drivers when they finished at the hole. He couldn’t challenge their shots because he wasn’t close to them.
I just don’t want to hear our guards use an excuse claiming they had to lay off guarding the trey shot in order to protect Doke from penetrating drives.
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Svi’s wingspan is 6’5” no wonder he can’t defend anyone or protect his dribble. The t-Rex comparison isn’t too far off. Good thing he’s skinny, he’d have a hard time wiping his kester if he had a belly.
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We’re picking the bones off the flesh. We’re not going to be an NBA All-star team. Still, I think this team can be a real good team, warts and all. Cunliffe will help keep the guys fresh on the perimeter, and should play good defense when he’s in there. Now we have a pivot if Newman or Svi is struggling. De Sousa is a classic old style 4 with elite rebounding skills. He will help us when Doke gets in foul trouble. Two extra players in the rotation will allow us to play more aggressively. All is not lost - keep the faith.
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If De Sousa comes in, I wonder what offense we will run.
Self just mentioned “making changes” and it sounds like he wants to slow down the pace and go back to “BAD BALL.” Did anyone else catch this?
I get it. Our guards are playing ZERO defense! We’ve been putting all our emphasis on offense. So… kill the offense!
If I squint my eyes and replay our last two games, it looks like we have 4 or 5 BGreenes out there!
This isn’t my biggest worry (even though it is horrible). My biggest worry is about what I saw from Devonte for the past 3 years. Consistency was an issue. He can’t be inconsistent and lead this team. It seems like he had a couple of hot games, then he let off the gas. Hot and cold will always be there… hustle is a constant! Using your head… is a constant!
Devonte, alone, needed to step up in these games and put the team on his back. He could have shredded both of these teams with his drive, which might have helped our guys get motivated on both sides of the court.
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@drgnslayr I kind of want Bill to go full bad ball for a little while. Force the guards to drive and learn how to finish in the lane. After that, slowly loosen the rains and open the the trey again. But the first thing we have to do is prove to ourselves that we can score inside, even with a 4 guard lineup.
That and then just play hellacious D. Get these guys flying all over the court and create some havoc.
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Yeah… there is no reason why we should be playing defense this lousy. We have enough team speed and should be showing high energy on d. We should be a Top 10 defensive team, especially concerning steals.
The energy just isn’t there. And the spacing and hedging has been extremely horrible!
I hate to say it… but I’m with you… it may be necessary to go for BAD BALL and grind games.
Giving up 95 points at home to ASU?
What a friggin’ joke!
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Referenced this on today’s @KUsports Hour… For those melting down about KU’s defense, last year’s was actually worse.
Bill Self last year: “I mean this is without question probably — not probably — it is the poorest defensive team that we’ve ever had.” Scott chasen ku sports reporter
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Maybe what we thought we had in team speed isn’t good enough. Washington and ASU have certainly cast doubt in our guys quickness abilities. I do think some of it is attributed to guys playing too many minutes. Vick & Graham have sat a total of 5 minutes in the past 3 games. I suppose that could be beneficial to them later in the year but its clear we need more balancing of the minutes. Cunliffe hopefully helps that as long as Newman comes back relatively soon. Just adding 1 post player could have a huge affect on minutes and therefore guys energy in games etc. This two game slump (3 if we count Cuse) could all be the consequence of having 7 guys and tired legs
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@BeddieKU23 I think we have lulled ourselves to sleep by switching too much. We need to start hedging and trapping off of hedges like we do when we play 2 bigs. Then everyone else rotates hard and fast.
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Presumptuous of you to state you know what is the correct word I wanted to write. I wrote cockiness not confidence and it is exactly what I meant; I even posted a link to the definition to point out the meaning I wanted to convey. We both have “opinions” which are just that, “opinions” and not facts. We both stated “opinions” and while different I did not tell you yours was wrong…too much to expect you to respect mine?
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I mentioned that to someone that the constant switching made it seem like lazy defense. We got caught flat footed against quick guards who figured out how to attack the defense. Who knows if the alternative fighting through screens and sticking with their man would have made a difference but I would like to see something change because what we got isn’t working.
Anyone else notice there are times Graham gets switched on the big in the lane? If a team starts recognizing that ridiculous switch we will pay for it. I really don’t know what we are trying to accomplish with some of the switches
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Spot on concerning too many minutes for some of our guys.
I think Sam will be a big help in relief of some guard minutes.
ASU guards looked a million times faster than our guards. But that is just this situation, this game. I don’t like to give our guys any excuses, but too many minutes can give these guys rubber legs. And then what motivation did our guys have to play well against ASU? But ASU had plenty of motivation to play hard against us.
The real problem we had in this game, which resulted in making the ASU guards look must faster than ours, was caused by our guards defending horribly. Very poor technique. Spacing was horrible and no hedging against the obvious right side drives. We allowed their guards to pick up big driving speed and then SWOOSH they were past our guards!
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I like your concept of falling asleep because of our high ball switches.
It allows our guys to play soft. It also allows our opponents to play harder because we aren’t getting physical with them.
In both the last two games, we were outplayed. Totally.
We will have to learn to ADAPT DURING games. We can bash Duke and Coach K all we want, but hard to bash them about in-game changes. You see them call time out and then you see them try something else. Typically, we don’t do that at Kansas. We have a kind of “elitist” attitude that we should never have to change our tactics… just keep grinding away at them and they will eventually work. This isn’t just a Self issue. This is a Kansas issue.
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@drgnslayr I hate high ball switches. It let’s the offense dictate where they want to go and the pace they want to go there at.
It also hurts your help defense when one of your help defenders is running away as soon as the drive starts. There has been a pattern the last two games. First, create a switch. 2nd, immediately follow that switch with a REALLY high ball screen. That takes two help defenders out of the play almost immediately. 3rd, drive the ball and attempt to beat Doke to the rim.
It has resulted in too many layups that aren’t being contested.
That same thing can play out differently if we hedge immediately instead of switch. First, when they do a little handoff up top, instead of the switch it triggers a rotation. If the defender can’t fight through the handoff, and the player has an open drive, help defense plays off and we force a 3. If we rotate correctly, the man beat by the handoff will be rotating to defend the guy shooting the 3. He will probably be late and we will give up an open 3, but it shouldn’t be a comfortable 3 pointer. This also leaves Doke at the rim for protection if the driver doesn’t kick it out for 3.
If the defender doesn’t get caught up in the handoff and forces the REALLY high ball screen, we can hedge and trap like we used to, they will have to make three timely passes to get it to a wide open guy.
If you have 5 - 6’8 guys who can guard everyone, sure switching makes sense. Otherwise, hedging is the way to go.
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Look I get this a venting topic. Yet already looking to next year? Really? I know we are all fans and just want to win. Yet ask yourself this real question? What does KU basketball program mean to you?
Ever year KU defies logic. They are an adidas school trying to take on the Nike empire. Year after year they deliver. Oh they fall short of our glorious expectations. Yet they achieve greatness even if they fall shot of what us fan really want.
Yea it’s not looking good on a National championship this year. However they are still our Jayhawks. Gentleman and ladies this isn’t professional basketball we are talking about here. We are talking about kids here. Kids that chose to be a Jayhawk. To play in the holy grail of all basketball. ((((The Allen field house))))) Sure they lost at home and your upset, yet how do you think these kids feel?
So Young to face such disappointment in letting down their fans and history.
And all you can say is? (I can’t wait till next year) really?
These are kids that chose to take on the mantle of Jayhawks. No easy burden.
Bite your tongues my friends.
Oh I want to say so much more but I’m going to bite my tongue. No matter what happens this season these KU kids slash Jayhawks deserve our love and fandom.
Suck up Jayhawks fans. KU basketball isn’t just about winning. It’s about creating men.
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Sorry for the bad grammar. Maybe one to many beers.
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@DoubleDD You’re grammer, ain’t that bad. Its much goodly.
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@DoubleDD Every year we defy logic? Right, how does a team with so much talent avoid making the final four?
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@HighEliteMajor This is painfully true. When you look at the talent and winning % you would anticipate at least 5 more F4 and maybe 7-10 since mid 90s.
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@Fightsongwriter Just in comparison to other programs, since Self has been here - UNC 5 Final Fours, Duke 3 FFs, UK 4 FFs, MSU 4 FFs, Louisville 3 FFs, UConn 3 FFs, Florida 3 FFs, Butler 2 FFs, Wisconsin 2 FFs, Ohio St. 2 FFs, Syracuse 2 FFs.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Fightsongwriter Just in comparison to other programs, since Self has been here - UNC 5 Final Fours [EASYGATE, DUMP TRUCKS, ALWAYS MORE TALENT THAN KU], Duke 3 FFs [MEDIUM AND LONG STACKS, ALWAYS MORE TALENT THAN KU ], UK 4 FFs [ALL LONG STACKS, ALWAYS MORE TALENT THAN KU], MSU 4 FFs [LEGITIMATE], Louisville 3 FFs [PROSTITUTION-ASSISTED RECRUITING] UConn 3 FFs [CORRUPTION DEFINED ON FIRST TWO], Florida 3 FFs [HELLUVA COACH THAT GAVE UP ON RECRUITING CORRUPTION AND WENT TO THE PROS TO CASH OUT], Butler 2 FFs GREAT COACH THAT GOT SCREWED OUT OF RINGS, GAVE UP AND WENT TO THE PROS]], Wisconsin 2 FFs [GREAT COACH THAT GOT SCREWED OUT OF TWO RINGS, SAID SO, THEN GOT SMEARED INTO RETIREMENT LIKELY FOR SAYING SO] , Ohio St. 2 FFs [A GUY WHO COULDNT GET IT DONE WITH DUMP TRUCKS], Syracuse 2 FFs [CORRUPTION, FAB MELO, STAFF PEDO ALLEGATIONS].
This was an excellent list to work with.
Self is NOT super human. Ratso, Donovan, and Bo likely were all as good, or better.
But Self is way the heck better than the rest for the period considered.
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Fightsongwriter said:
@HighEliteMajor This is painfully true. When you look at the talent and winning % you would anticipate at least 5 more F4 and maybe 7-10 since mid 90s.
Did some looking as you said sine the mid 90’s - - so I went back to 1996. Saying with the talent we have had that we would anticipate At lest 5 more F4’s - -and maybe 7-10 - -saying that might be just a little off base.
Since 1996 KU , is only behind the leader of reaching the final 4 Kentucky by 3: - - During this 20 yr stretch Kentucky has 7 , final 4’s - - - -N Carolina has 6 - - -Duke has 5 - - KU has 4 - -& Arizona has 2 - -so it’s not like we are sucking hind T - - in relation to this.
Out of these final 4’s reached during this time Duke has reached the Championship game - -4 times - - -Kentucky 4 times - - KU 3 times - -North Carolina 3 times - – & Arizona 2 times. - -so nothing really drastic about that either
So when you say when we look at the talent - then if that’s what we look at then these other teams Duke, Kentucky , & N Carolina for sure should be also reaching the final 4 ALOT more then they have - -it’s not as drastic as some make it to be - -again in that 20 year span you mention -Duke the all and mighty powerful Duke has reached the final 4 ONE more time -& the al mighty Kentucky only 2 more times in a TWETNY year span
There is one other thing that three out of these other four teams has accomplished that Ku hasn’t. - - -and that is? - -in this same 20 yr span - - Three teams haven’t even made the NCAA tourney during this span. - - -North Carolina has failed to even make the tourney 3 years out of this 20 yr span - - -Kentucky has failed to make the tourney 2 times during this span - - & Arizona has failed to make the tourney 1 time during this span. - -How many times has KU made it to the tourney during this same time frame? - - ALL of them - -So I wonder what was going on with all that talent for these teams during those years? - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Another thing of note during this 20 year span when KU made the final four? - -out of those 4 times? - -we made the Championship 3 times.
Out of Kentucky’s 7 times they reached the final 4 during that same span- - - - - they reached the Championship 4 times
Out of N Carolina’s final 4 appearances during this 20 year span - -they had 6 final fours - they reached the Championship - -3 times
So I would say they had nothing on us there either, the difference if you want to try and find things - would actually be in the Championship game it self - KU is just 1-2 in those appearances. Other then that it’s not a bad as some want to try and make it out to be. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Are you saying that even though the other teams failed to make the tournament every year, they still had more final 4s?
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Wow.
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@3genhawk Not sure how long you’ve been posting here or at kusports.com … but back when UK won the title in 2012, UK didn’t make the tourney the following year. There were folks arguing that it was actually better to make the tournament every season, than it was to win national titles and miss it every so often. That conversation occurred when discussing UConn, as well.
It is a mindset that I can’t even fathom.
@jayballer54 So, what do you say about our NCAA performance during Self’s tenure? Satisfied, I assume?
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3genhawk said:
Are you saying that even though the other teams failed to make the tournament every year, they still had more final 4s?
kind of nit picking huh? - ya ok guess they did huh - -also saying that when we get to the final four we do more make it to the championship more huh? - -ROK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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HighEliteMajor said:
@3genhawk Not sure how long you’ve been posting here or at kusports.com … but back when UK won the title in 2012, UK didn’t make the tourney the following year. There were folks arguing that it was actually better to make the tournament every season, than it was to win national titles and miss it every so often. That conversation occurred when discussing UConn, as well.
It is a mindset that I can’t even fathom.
@jayballer54 So, what do you say about our NCAA performance during Self’s tenure? Satisfied, I assume?
Can anyone say that their satisified in any year other the NCAA Champion. - -Every other school ends up as a loser at the end of the year unless you win the Championship.
Would you say you would be satisified if we were to make to more final fours - and end up losing the championship? - -Would you still be playing 2nd fiddle? - Of course you would. - -after all what is the goal at the beginning of each and every season? - -To make the final four on a consistent basis? - -To make the Championship on a regular basis? - - ummm , NO it’s to win the Championship. Not to get to the championship - -everybody but one ends the season with a loss. Whether its in the 1st round or final 4 you failed to accomplish your goal from the beginning of the year.
SO would or is the KU fan base would we be happier if we just made the final four on a more regular basis? - Would that make us feel better, That way we could thump our chest and say HEY we make the final 4 year in and year out to which I reply - - AND? how that work out for ya? - -Unless you win it all - you have accomplished nothing. -You still lost, you have no props. Do we think people will remember who lost in the Championship game year, after year, after year? - -Ask someone who lost the Championship from 10 yrs ago - you think the ordinary sports fan is going t be able to tell you that?
To bag on a team for not making the final four quite frequent is just a reach. - -So many things come into play to be able to do that - it takes ONE bad outing. More cases then not if the teams that knocks you out chances are if you were to play a best of 7 things could be a lot diferent- -but it’s one game.
So let me ask you - -would you be happy making the final 4 every year to end up losing say 50-60 % of the time - If you would be then I say WHY? - -you still lost - -you still came in 2nd. - Is that what we want ? - to be able to boast HEY we finish 2nd - -ALOT - makes perfectly good sense to me - I’m sure those kids are really happy about that - I think not - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@HighEliteMajor people just make excuses for mediocrity or failed attempts at success. Because KU historically chokes in the tourney and does not play to its potential, under both Roy and Self, people start to concoct reasons and excuses, claiming “at least we make the tournament” and other dumb statements. Not for not are we known as chokers to the rest of the country. VCU, UNI, Bradley, and Oregon were huge letdowns on an embarrassing level (no wissox, embarrassing for the program, not me). People just seem content with winning the conference or getting a couple high profile wins each season. It’s what many have come to expect from Self’s tenure - play well during the season and lay a huge egg in March. To quote Morpheus “his weakness, is not his technique (coaching technique”.
