The great Debate?
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OK you claim that UK could do what KU has done in the Big 12? Yet UK hasn’t done that in the SEC. A conference that is considered the weakest of all the power 5 conferences.
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The question was could Duke, UNC, or UK duplicate/equal KU’s conference winning streak if they were playing in the Big 12?
I know ACC seems daunting with all those basketball schools. Yet if the ACC is so great with all those great and good schools and no schools that play below average. Then they should have 2 to 3 teams in the final 4 every year, and should have a winning streak of NC in basketball like the SEC in Football had up tell the last couple years.
Yet that isn’t the case.
You see the damn thing is if the ACC gets just one school in the Final four then their repetition stays intact. Even though it supposed to be a league full of great and good teams?
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I’m going to say it. As long as Coach Self is the coach, KU would duplicate their record in any conference you want to pick.
The reason?
UK won’t agree to a home and home with KU.
UNC doesn’t want any game with KU.
Duke won’t even think about scheduling with KU unless it’s Football.
Why? You tell me? Coach has been trying to schedule these matchups for years. It isn’t KU backing down. It’s UK, Duke, and UNC. No the only way these schools will play KU is in some kind of Championship series. Not sure UNC would even agree to that. I’ve read the articles, and it’s not the lack of Coach trying to these games on the schedule.
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@DoubleDD To be fair, Roy doesn’t want to schedule KU for emotional reasons. Not the same situation as the other two schools.
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Fair point.
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@jayballer54 Ou goes to a Final Four - the next year, they are gutted. Iowa St is going downhill. A few years back, the B12 had 3 teams ranked in the Top 10, and 5/6 teams ranked in the Top 25. This year, they’re going to be fortunate to keep 3 teams in the Top 25 the whole year. It’s going to be a down year for the B12, imo. When the idiots running the B12 turned down Louisville, the handwriting was on the wall. Now the ACC and the Pac 12 are both ahead of the B12. Gees Louise, have you seen all the talent that Pac 12 teams had last year, and have signed for this year?
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@DoubleDD Hmmmm, let’s see, In this thread wasn’t you asking for others opinions? - - Didn’t you say they WERE no wrong answers? - -just other views? - Yet when others give a view different then you must be wanting to hear, you go on a attack mode, so I’m guessing unless it’s what your wanting to hear then the others don’t know what were talking about. - -these are just opinions, you question Kc Matt - -you question myself, on our opinions just cause they differ then what you feel - -believe. - -You say the perception that comes across that the ACC is surpose to be so great then why shouldn’t they have more then one team in the final four every year. Hate to tell you ARE better then the Big 12 in Basketball period
You know or at least should know that when it comes to the tourney, it is a crap shoot, a lot of things go into the tourney, Things such as, What time comes into the tourney on a roll - -gets hot at the right time coming into the tourney, In the tournament it’s ONE game, you happen to have a of night and your done, if you lose because of a off night does that mean the other team is better then you? - - -umm no, it was an OFF NIGHT. - -a turnover here, a turnover there, a missed call here, a missed call there, a off night shooting, it happens. Does that mean they are better? absolutely not, it’s a one game series, you have to go on a team body of work for a season - - not one game.
So the same thing can be said for ACC teams. How many teams do you think the ACC should have in the final four every year 2? - -3? how many? when your talking about the strength of a conference you look at their body of work over a season - - not one game. - -Let me ask you this - in how many of our ( KU ) early exits from the NCAA tourney, in how many of those games do you feel the other team was better then KU ? - In most of those cases the scenario happen that I talked about earlier in my response, you know that -I know that - -we all know that or we should, if you know anything at all. - In those losses if KU were to play the best 3-5 chances are better then not we would win that series, or if it was the best out of seven, we would win that series but it’s not - -it’s ONE game.
The same thing can be said for the ACC, their losses was one game - -not a series, chances are in their losses they too if it was a series most of the time these schools would win those series, Again a lot depends o so many factors, who gets hot at the right time, who has an off night, If a player gets hurt, bad calls,. When your comparing conferences you have to go over a teams body of work for the season - -not a one game tourney. Their is only one winner out of 68 in the NCAA tourney - -one winner, the other 67 go home losers, finish their season with a L. - -does that mean they aren’t any good? - - does that mean their conference is over rated? Does that mean that the ACC isn’t a better conference the Big 12? -No, absolutely not. - - It means in their one game series they got beat.
Your not going to see multiple teams from the same conference make the final four very often, that is just not going to happen, to many factors, doesn’t mean one Conference isn’t better, to get multiple teams in the tourney to the final four is an exception , not the rule by far.
Now as far as the SEC I think and again just my opinion your more right, cause the SEC isn’t as strong , by far. Yes Kentucky would have a harder time accomplishing, it, but would they have a chance or could they? - -Yes they would have a chance - -a chance, that’s all it is - - a chance, but you ask could they? - -and the answer is yes, they could, anybody could - just that some teams chances are a lot better then others. - -Again as you said there is no wrong answers - -just opinions, and that all Matt’s is - -mine is - just like you everybody has a right to an opinion, rather you think they are right or wrong, there just opinions, I know you’ll think I’m getting all twisted up, getting heated, no not at all, again I’m just giving an opinion on what you fronting Matt and myself for not agreeing or thinking the way you are on this -we don’t agree it’s ok, right? - That’s whats great about this site people are allowed to voice their opinion on things rather it’s right or wrong, like you say their is no wrong answer just different opinions. - -anyways just my thoughts, hope you have a good upcoming day guy. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@DoubleDD Yet if the Big 12 is tougher then the ACC in Basketball like your trying to imply then WE should have a streak of National titles in Basketball, words or things you are trying to imply about the ACC, same goes for the big 12.
Team for team simply the ACC is a better Conference, you wanna match the middle, the lower division teams of each Conference against one another? - -I’ll take Louisville, Syracuse, Virginia, Miami hell even to a lesser degree North Carolina State over K-State, Texas Tech, TCU any day, and yes I am stating these teams from the ACC as middle tier because that’s where they are frequently in a league such as the ACC, it’s a war there every night out - -doesn’t mean they suck, just means their league is a battle and again if we were to match those teams against the one’s I mentioned from the Big 12, ya I’m taking the ACC more often then not ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@KUSTEVE Agree on Louisville for sure, a lot of talent gone out West also. Other then KU where does the Big 12 have teams ranked in the top 20 - -30 in recruiting on a consistent basis? - -We don’t I don’t think OU ranks in the top 20, I don’t think Iowa State, Baylor, West Virginia do consistency have recruiting classes, The ACC is just better period, the Pac 12 not so sure - I know Dough boy is always or seems to do really well, especially the last two – - three years, I agree why we didn’t bring Louisville in the league is a head scratcher for sure. - - ROC CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer54 The case could be made that Arizona has signed as almost as many top recruits this year and next as our entire conference. I did a breakdown a few months back where the B12 this upcoming recruiting year had signed far less talent in the Top 100 recruits than the ACC and the Pac12. Heck, we barely beat the Big East. Take KU out of the equation, and it becomes downright pitiful. Now, that was b4 Bamba had signed with UT, so that helps the conference for sure. For the B12 to stay relevant, we need to see OU and UT take a big step forward ( which could definitely happen), TCU to continue to improve, and the Clones not to fall off a cliff w/o Morris.
My opinion is the conference is dead man walking. It’s just a matter of time before we have to start scheduling a grueling non-conference because the conference is so weak. We’ll end up in the B10, which is why they are rushing to upgrade the football facilities.
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@DoubleDD I said my part on if I think it could be duplicated already.
And your logic is completely flawed. But whatever man. You feel free to think what you want. Seems like you’re just trying to start something by saying outlandish comments with no backup.
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@KUSTEVE I understand, and I now stumpy has been knocking the socks off on his recruits I mean Ayton and others I’m not sure why the big 12 doesn’t do better in recruitment I mean ya Texas got Bama, Okla got Young but over all were sucking hind boob for lack of a better word I want to say but won’t - -I’m sure in the end run your right it will be the Big 10 , so we will be ok, BUT K-Straight their screwed maybe the Mo Valley lmao - but Everyone has their own opinions and that’s what this thread just as others were suppose to be about opinions and that’s all they are - I’m sure I’m gonna get blasted from some people who think I’m just some suck ass ACC lover - -umm No I just feel they are the better conference just my opinion was said not suppose to be any wrong answer and I’m not going to get sucked into war of words that has happened before and got ugly have grown from that, but I for sure agree with ya man, one thing for sure feels good to be Crimson & Blue - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Kcmatt7 I agree with ya buddy I think it could easily be duplicated by these teams Duke for sure and the other 2 would have a good shot. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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In the 9 years since we won the national championship, teams currently in the ACC have won 5 national championships ( Louie had not joined the ACC yet, but it shows the caliber of the league). Over the same period, the B12 has had 2 Final Four teams. i understand the luck factor of the tournament, (and I recognize the easy path they gave Dook one year) but at some point, all of these rating systems that always show the B12 as the best have to be seriously questioned, imo. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
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@jayballer54 I actually don’t think it would have been duplicated.
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Seems to me that if you have one smaller conference with a single elite team, and another 40% larger conference with two or three elite teams, it is a lot more likely that the team in the smaller conference will have a long championship streak. It wouldn’t matter if the teams were exchanged.
Having two elite teams in a single conference almost guarantees that they will knock each other off periodically. Put either of those teams in a conference by themselves and you could see a long streak.
Don’t forget that Duke and NC, through all the changes in ACC membership, have always played each other home and away. Remember, too, that KU did not have to do that until 2012-13. That includes the early days of The Streak when the biggest challenges were Texas (including the Aldridge, Ford, Durant, Augustin, Gibson, Pittman, Tucker, and Thompson years) and Oklahoma (and Blake Griffin was injured when we played the single game against them the year he was Nat’l POY). Since we tied with one of those teams in 3 of the first 4 Streak championships, it cannot be denied that our limited exposure to those teams played a role.
Could Duke or NC have done the same? Sure! Take either of those teams out of the ACC over the past 30 years (which also would have eased recruiting since there would no longer be a conference rivalry, much as we no longer seem to be fighting with MU), and you could easily have seen the remaining one run off a long string. Move them to the Big 12, same thing.
Elite teams and elite coaches will excel wherever they are.
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The big 12 is basically the wcc. #elpoyotakes
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I know for a fact UNC under the current coach could not maintain a conference win steak of more than a few years and couldn’t win a national championship while in the big12 either. We already went down that road with Roy. I sure as heck don’t want him back.
DoEs unc or duke get the recruits try currently haul in If they are in the Midwest?
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I would argue that the Big 12, in its early days, was stronger than it is currently.
Remember, OU went to a Final Four while Roy was here. Texas did too. Mizzou had some good teams. Oklahoma State went to the Final Four in 2004 and in 1995, and had been good at the national level in those in between years. Iowa State was a top 5 team in a couple of years. Over the last 10 years, I don’t think you can find teams as good as the early 2000s Texas teams with TJ Ford, or those late 90’s and early 2000s Oklahoma teams, or Sutton’s consistent Oklahoma State teams, or even Tim Floyd’s ISU squads, and certainly not on a year after year basis.
Again, this is talking about teams being strong national contenders on a year after year basis. That just hasn’t happened in the Big 12.
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@justanotherfan How many final fours does Mizzou have? Lol.
Roy has been a better coach at unc, because he’s been better at recruiting. His style of waiting on one key piece before he would sign anyone else at KU royally screwed up more than one class. It’s pretty easy to see why that guy has had more success at an easier school to recruit to. It’s fairly amazing that anyone has success at KU given the geographical limitations on recruiting and the lack of local talent.
Put Bill Self on unc or dukes teams and he wins big every year. Would be win the acc every season- probably not. Put k or Roy as KUs coach and do they match what Bill has done? Not likely.
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Not having MU in the conference has aided KU in keeping the streak going. Self was 5-4 in Columbia while in the Big 12. Roy was roughly .500 there as well. That eliminated probably our toughest road trip of the season when they left the conference. That’s a huge benefit, especially since we haven’t won at WVU in 4 years, and we’ve been pretty shaky at Oklahoma State during Self’s tenure.
MU has zero Final Fours, but they have been a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament. Since the streak started, no other Big 12 team has gotten a #1 seed. OU has had a pair of 2s. That just points again to the lack of national level teams in the conference during the streak.
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Speaking of scheduling… we have a good track record of beating many B12 teams on their home court. Even though that may help them “get up” to play us in their home every year, as the game progresses sometimes you can see them wilt.
Meanwhile… many of our other top foes in the league have historically had trouble in many of their away games.
It really is a combination “perfect storm” that is going to have to happen to dethrone KU from being conference champions. We need to drop one or more of those games we usually win, and whomever is challenging us for the top spot has to win games they don’t normally win.
I think it even gets tougher for our foes when there is more than one shining bright to challenge us. In the end, all those teams cannibalize each other, leaving us alone at the top.
Last… I always thank KSU. Those purple kitties always help us. They pull upsets on others that always puts the icing on the cake.
I think we should make Weber a symbolic assistant coach at KU!
LOL
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@drgnslayr I was with you until that last part. No squeaky!
That consistency is what sets KU apart from ANY team in the country. No days off. Hell Duke and UNC both had fallen out of the top 25 mid to late season due to poor play in the last 10 years.
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I wasn’t trying to be rude. I was just asking the question about UK. It’s not even really about disagreeing with ya. Every body agrees UK gets the better talent, and every body also agrees the SEC is a weaker conference than the Big 12?
You say they have a chance. I say they have blown their chance.
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@justanotherfan Missouri was never a 1 seed during KU’s streak. They were a 2 seed once and lost in the 1st round that year.
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@drgnslayr This is the biggest difference between the Big 12 and ACC. The best team will always win the Big 12 because of the double round robin. In the ACC, you can have a team that’s not the best win the regular season because they lucked out on their schedule.
Would KU’s streak be at 13 if KU had Texas, OU, or OSU twice during early years of the streak when KU shared the league title? KU has definitely been the benefactor of some favorable schedules when the Big 12 still had divisions and avoided playing some of those really good UT, OU, and OSU teams twice in the mid to late 2000’s.
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I’m not sure how I got side ways with ya, but yes I am a flawed person.
Believe me I’m not arguing that the Big 12 is the best conference. Hands down the ACC is far and away the best conference. Also lets not forget about the Pac 12.
I guess I’m trying to point out that what Coach has done with KU in this conference streak is pretty remarkable. And just because someone is a Duke, UNC, or Kentucky. Doesn’t mean they could match the success of the conference streak. Doesn’t mean they couldn’t, yet the odds would be pretty slim. In fact I’m pretty sure Vegas would take all those bets in a heart beat.
As KU fans I think we just assume KU will win the conference every year. Not realizing what amazing run Coach and KU are on. We take it for granted if you will.
I guess only after the streak ends and some time has passed can we as fans look back and truly see the greatness that has taken place.
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Great point about having the double round robin.
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@DoubleDD I actually would say that since Bill Self has been the coach at Kansas, the SEC has been just as good as the Big 12 overall; and better by the ultimate measure – NCAA titles and Final Fours.
No way KU has this conference streak if another top 15 program is in the mix. It’s just the reality of competition. We don’t have any program other than Kansas in that range.
The conference streak is impressive regardless. But it has to be considered in light of the fact the obvious lack of quality of Big 12 programs in comparison to other conferences.
During Bill Self’s tenure, there isn’t another program in the Big 12 that even compares with the SEC #2 – Florida.
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It is true the ultimate prize is making a final 4 and winning the national championship. However I’m not in agreement with some of those metrics when comparing the strengths of conferences.
Does two teams make a conference great? I really don’t know, yet to so many it seems to. I guess if team y and team x have some success in the tournament then they play in a great conference?
Maybe I’m wrong but hasn’t the Big 12 won the Big12/SEC challenge every year?
I agree the Big 12 has for the most part stunk it up in the Tourney. Yet to say their the weakest conference because of it? I’m not sure I can wrap my arms around that one.
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I was reaching back to the Roy Williams years to point out that the Big 8/ Big 12 was stronger during that period than it has been during the Self period.
OU, Texas and Mizzou all had one seeds while Williams was at KU.
OU, Texas, and OSU all went to a Final Four while Williams was here.
OSU went to the FF in 2004. OU went in 2016. That means during the streak, only 1 Big 12 team (not counting KU, obviously) has gone to the Final Four.
No other Big 12 team has gotten a #1 seed during the streak.
The Big 12 is full of good teams, but not many great ones.
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Npoy 2003 TJ Ford before streak. During streak Durant, Griffin, Heild
Three NPOY Bill has overcome whole at KU. Roy overcame exactly zero NPOY in the big12.
5 NPOY from the big12 over the last 14 years is pretty salty!
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So…if Gonzaga decides to really load up on the imports, gets the best Canadian, Australian and Euro players and wins the NCAA 5 years in a row, would the WCC become the best and strongest conference? Just sayin’…
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Here are the top 2 NCAA seed teams during the streak:
2 - Oklahoma State 2005, Oklahoma 2009, Oklahoma 2016, K-State 2010, Texas 2006, Texas 2008, Missouri 2012 (7 total)
1 - None
Williams years
2 - Iowa State 2000, Iowa State 2001, Oklahoma State 1992, Oklahoma 2002 (4)
1 - Oklahoma 1989, Oklahoma 1990, Oklahoma 2003, Texas 2003, Missouri 1994 (5)
I would go on a limb and say the best team during the Streak (probably the 2009 Oklahoma squad that lost to eventual champ UNC) isn’t as good as either the 1989 or 2003 OU teams, the 2003 Texas team or possibly that '94 Mizzou team (undefeated in the Big 8 ).
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Yes, I think Duke would be duplicating what we’ve done. UNC has been up and down a little bit, heck, Roy didn’t win this league but 9 out of the 14 years he was in town.
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@DoubleDD did I miss something? - -who said the Big 12 is the weakest conference? - -are you talking of the 3? - - -not sure about that, I know and I’m just speaking on my own behalf - I sure don’t think we are the weakest - -I think we are stronger then the SEC. - -But the question pertaining to this thread was could Kentucky do what KU has done, and to I have to respond that I think they would have a chance, that doesn’t speak for the entire conference, the conference as a whole I think Ku - -Baylor - -Oklahoma - -West Virginia - -Iowa State - we are stronger then the SEC as a Conference, maybe not yrs back but in the present tense - -our teams would match with theirs I have no doubt. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Lots of gray. No doubt, the Big 12 is weaker than the ACC and Big 10. No way we win 13 in a row in the SEC with UK and Florida. I doubt anyone disagrees there. No way we win 13 with Arizona, UCLA and Oregon in the Pac 12. Are they better? Not sure. How about the American?
In the American, there is UConn, WSU, and Cincinnati – all arguably better programs in the last five years than any other Big 12 team aside from Kansas. Arguably. UConn for sure is. The Big East? Butler, Nova, Creighton, G’town, Providence. Big 12 is probably better.
Am I not giving the Big 12 enough credit?
There is just too much history of big time NCAA tourney failure against the world of CBB to give the Big 12 any real credit as a conference as a whole.
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Don’t forget Michael Beasley, I seem to recall he was co-player of the year with Hansbrough and at the time KSU also had Walker and other good players.
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@HighEliteMajor Giving just the right amount of credit. When games matter, Big XII has been awful.
Non-con record doesn’t mean anything when other teams are prepping for the tournament. OSU taking UNC to the wire in November means nothing come March. TCU starting 18-0 going into conference play means nothing when all 18 games were against schools for the blind.
When teams cut their rotations and play their best basketball, Big XII has been getting beat. As simple as that.
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I posted on the weakness of the current B12 as a reality check on our future- not to run down our prolific conference winning streak, which is one of the most amazing streaks in the history of college basketball. It is simply an incredible achievement, and I am very proud of our coach, our players, and our program.
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@KUSTEVE Don’t you know by now that we have entered the era of forced absolutes, when subtlety is forbidden and seeing both sides of an issue is fatal?
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@mayjay You can’t see both sides but apparently it’s all right to see “many sides” - though who it’s fatal to is sadly another question.
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I’m not sure anybody would argue that the Big 12 is the strongest. Yet I have to question those that think a Duke, UNC, or UK could accomplish what KU has done in the Big 12. Weak or not. Winning a conference is an accomplishment, and when you win it 13 years in a row. Well that is one for the ages and record books.
I’m not trying to be mean or pick a fight. Yet some of you act is if it’s a no-brainer that Duke, UNC, or UK would do the same if they played in the Big 12? Yet didn’t UK miss the tournament one year. Hasn’t both Duke and UNC had some down years during KU’s streak?
I look to the old Big East when it was in it’s heyday. There was a team that dominated that conference for I think 3 years? Yet they never had any success in the tourney. Even though the foes they beat through out the year had way more success in the tourney. What was that school? Pitt.
Maybe I’m wrong I just don’t see how one can correlate a strong conference with how well it does in the tourney. I mean yes has it’s place in the discussion. Yet one KU fan here posted that teams in these tough conference aren’t worried about winning the conference as they are preparing for tourney play. So these games of matchups mean nothing. OK well if that’s the case how can we draw the conclusion that this or that conference is strong because they have a few teams do well in the tourney? After all they are preparing for the tourney and don’t put much importance on non-con games and conference games.
Another problem I have with the concept of tourney success deciding what a tough conference is. Well the tourney is largely based off matchups. Who here is going to stand up and argue that Duke doesn’t get the easiest paths to the final 4? Yes you still have to play those games and win. Yet it sure helps when the committee has your back. Lets not mention the seeding process of the NCAA committee is something less then to be desired. Come on we all know it and have seen it. There have been some good teams that could pushed down to a lower seed so the NCAA/CBS and get a must watch game. Plus the NCAA tournament is a OAD. One bad night and the season is over. The best team doesn’t always win. It doesn’t mean that team played in a weak conference.
Someone posted my argument was flawed. Yet I’m thinking if you solely base conference strength just off tourney success? Well I kind of think that is flawed too.
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@DoubleDD Pitt definitely made a FF in the Old Big East during their solid run.
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@DoubleDD It isn’t like we are basing our argument on one or two tournament showings. We are talking about the Big 12 for 13 seasons. We are talking about 50+ games. Plenty large enough of a sample size for things to even out.
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Did they make it to a final 4? I wasn’t sure about that. I know they had some early exits, and flirted with being the first #1 seed to lose in the tourney.
Maybe I should check my facts before I post?
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Am I missing something? Decided to some research and it shows Pitts last final four in 1941? Also it’s only final 4.
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@DoubleDD you’re right. I thought their elite 8 run was a FF run.
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@DoubleDD I would agree. I don’t think any other team in the country would have done what Bill Self has done if they were in our place in the Big 12. What Bill Self does in the regular season, and in getting the most from some lesser talented guys, is unmatched. That’s his clear strength.
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DoubleDD said:
Ok so let the arguement begin. Could UK, UNC, or Duke duplicate what KU has done these last 13 years? If UK, UNC, or Duke were in the Big 12 would they be on the cusp of setting the record for the most consecutive conference championships?
Duke, UNC, UK don’t care and that’s why they wouldn’t be able to replicate KUs streak. These programs have made it pretty clear- all they care about are championships and they make sure all their recruits know it also. Conf wins/streak is a nice to have, but, since Self is a steak guy, i use this analogy:
you go to a steak restaurant for the steak, not for the appetizers. Sure the appetizers help and the joint can have the best tasting appetizers consistently each and every day, but they will always (rightfully so) be judge on their steak.
