What About Mitchell?
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@jayballer54 Let’s fight. I’ll take a half year from him.
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We land Robinson; wait on the NCAA; he gets a late start; Self says he’s behind; Self won’t play him much; when he plays, we can see his potential; Self says it takes time and that he’s “raw”; Self makes cryptic comments about being in the right spots; meanwhile, other programs play their freshman who need to get experience; posters claim players don’t get better and don’t get more comfortable from playing in games; those who know better take deep breaths so their heads don’t implode; seniors supposedly vote and say they like someone else better (maybe not this time); Robinson doesn’t play much; we lose short of the final four; then the season is over and he leaves – and somehow he looks really good in the NBA D-League, lacking experience and all.
Weighing against that proven scenario - we don’t have Lucas or Traylor on the roster who Self can fall back on because they go to the spots he wants, and know the system – which Self favors over talent. Further, we a desperately thin. We need Mitchell. This is a need deal, too, not just a high talent deal.
The best situation is when Self has to play the more talented player from the start. Here, we don’t have a really experienced guy ahead of him. Maybe Lightfoot knows the system inside and out and we’ll be cursing his minutes vs. Robinson, but a I doubt it. Both Lucas and Traylor were in the 4th season in the system. Ronbinson is sure to get “first big off the bench” minutes at a minimum, assuming Preston and Udoka start.
Really, and not being too dramatic, but this sort of player acquisition makes a national title a realistic possibility. Without it, not so much.
And please, don’t say that Jamari Traylor was a good player. He just wasn’t. He did a few things well some of the time, and had a some good bursts. But that’s it. His PER his senior season was 12.7, which was by far the worst of any regular … by a full three points below the next worst player, and worse than Evan Manning. He was a Bill Self pet. A teacher’s pet if there ever was one. I’d rather take my chances with Lightfoot, no doubt.
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@HighEliteMajor If that is true, why did he start Doke ahead of Landen last year?
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@HighEliteMajor I agree with your points. There is pretty much nothing that would keep Robinson from getting 25-30 minutes a game. I highly doubt that Mitch would be chosen over him. Besides knowing the system better and stuff like that, what can he do that Robinson cant?
Diallo was much different because he was raw and did not learn the system. Robinson knows the game very well and it probably wouldn’t take him very long to learn a good portion of what Self teaches. Plus, he is qualified and eligible to play college basketball, so if he chooses KU, he can start practicing and learning the system even if he has to sit out a year.
Yes, it is exciting to think of the possibilities with adding a player like Robinson. It’s been quite a while since we had two legit shotblockers in the post and that much length in general. Our title defense in San Antonio has a much greater chance of occurring with him than without him.
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KUSTEVE said:
@HighEliteMajor If that is true, why did he start Doke ahead of Landen last year?
That post was mostly about Diallo, I think. That situation was ridiculous. Diallo should have played.
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@KUSTEVE The comparison was Diallo vs. Robinson and the basis for the comparison was that Robinson might get started late because of NCAA issues (like Diallo, as @Bshark observed). So that might exclude Udoka.
But pointing out Udoka makes sense. Self did start him over Lucas, which indicates Self was looking at “merit” not seniority.
Of course, though, I’ve never really figured out Bill Self. Many folks felt that playing Diallo and committing to him early was the best long term move. Self is the boss, and once he committed to Lucas, we ran off a great stretch of wins. Seemed like Self was right there. I was supportive of the move since Self had really not give Diallo the minutes to get better (understanding Self has certain requirements to get minutes in the first place, which we all understand is prerequisite, like it or not), and we had reached February (really the time teams need to be setting rotations pretty firmly). One wonders, though, vs. Nova if a more athletic and better player would have helped vs. Lucas. Who knows. We might not have gotten a #1 seed if we’d committed to Diallo.
What we do know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is Diallo is a better basketball player than Lucas – Diallo is in the NBA. Lucas is playing for the Tokyo Ham Fighters, or whatever the heck they’re called.
@HawkChamp - I saw today that Jesse Newell was predicting 5-10 minutes per game for Robinson. I’d be betting 12-15, which is 3rd big minutes (though playing a four guard starting lineup might change things).
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@HighEliteMajor 67-86. Then the whole team said they wanted Landen. That score is how bad we got beat by Okie St in Diallo’s only start.
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@KUSTEVE if I remember correctly, it was then that Self asked the team who they wanted. This was a solicited opinion on the heels of Diallos only start. I think the question remains whether Self could have gotten more out of Diallo. He didn’t have to ask the team then.
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@KUSTEVE So you polled the entire team? And you really believe Self would do something that drastic if he didn’t think it was best?
64-59 - Score vs Villanova where Lucas was impotent offensively and as usual, zero rim protection.
74-60 - Score vs Oregon where Lucas was way over matched by guys who were athletically similar to Diallo. Cited for the irony, but also for the stark reality that game demonstrated in the post.
Of course, you cited a game that meant very little. I cited the two most important games of both seasons.
That said, Lucas played very well much of the time that year (2015-16). He just had times when he was overmatched due to his talent limitations – where a better player would fair much better. Oregon is a great example. And vs Nova, we sorely needed rim protection, which Diallo offered. None of that is even debatable.
And it’s not debatable that Diallo is a better basketball player. Coaches are tasked with developing that talent, not taking the easy way out and playing the comfortable, low risk option. The real risk is losing when it counts.
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What we do know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is Diallo is a better basketball player than Lucas – Diallo is in the NBA. Lucas is playing for the Tokyo Ham Fighters, or whatever the heck they’re called.
After one year of 24-7 training in the D League, Diallo is probably a better player than Lucas, although he still has to show what he can do consistently while playing with the big boys and not in the Debvelopment or Summer Leagues.
Having said that, there is no question that while both were at KU, Diallo was the player with the bigger potential but Lucas was the better basketball player. Nobody wants to win more than the players and they all thought the team was better off with Lucas…can’t really argue with that.
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@HighEliteMajor @JayHawkFanToo
The same complaints about not using Diallo in 2015-16 were also raised about not using Bragg more, who stayed another year and was virtually useless. Based on “potential” and “talent” Lucas should have been #3 big. Diallo got better in the D league, but not good enough to convince any team he should stay in the League consistently. Bragg didn’t get better despite ample opportunities offered by Doke’s injury.
Sometimes it is a crapshoot when someone will “get it.” Diallo may finally be getting it. Bragg hasn’t yet. Neither of them did during their year together at KU. Lucas was a backup plan forced to the fore, and was good enough to help get KU to 2 regional finals.
In both of those finals, the biggest aberration on offense from the regular season wasn’t remotely Lucas (6 pts, 12 rebs vs Nova; 9 pts, 3 rebs vs Ore). It was dismal 3 pt shooting by players we had relied on all year (Mason and Selden, 1 for 12 combined vs Nova; Graham and Jackson 0 for 8, Mason 2 for 8 ).
To chalk it all up to not having better developed a Diallo or a Bragg because of a lack of rim protection is a bit simplistic to say the least. It was our inability to score both years, including untimely turnovers and fouls, that did us in.
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First off, Robinson vs Diallo is night and day. Robinson will be able to practice, even while the NCAA decides his fate. Diallo got a late start for several reasons. He decided and graduated late and wasn’t on campus until very late in the season. KU could have worked on his eligibility sooner had he committed before May. And that way he could have practiced with the team and built rapport starting in June instead of October. 4 months lost. Bill and the team were put in a bad spot with his situation and lack of transparency. With that said, I think Bill should have given Diallo more minutes even if it meant sacrificing a few wins with the hope it paid off come March. Think U.K. when they were an 8 seed in the NC game because Cal let all those youngsters play and take their lumps all season. It paid off. Talent wins games.
With that said, Robinson is NOT Diallo. He isn’t raw and unskilled. He is a legit footer with basketball skills. And, again, he will be able to practice as soon as he decides. He will have 2 months of practice to learn and compete, and as someone who has played basketball his entire life he should be able to pick up the nuances that Diallo could never pick up in the little time he had to practice. Just 100% nights and day. To be honest, Robinson has the potential to start at the 5 over Doke come year end. Or even, if Robinson can shoot as well as billed he could play along side of Doke and our rim protection could be other worldly. if Robinson commits he will play. Period. He will play 20+ minutes a game. And lightfoot won’t stand in his way, even if the guards like him better. If Robinson commits and doesn’t play, KU might as well not ever try recruiting top 20 post players under Self because they won’t come here. Self will be under the gun to develop Robinson into the lottery pick he was projected to be more than any other post he has ever recruited.
If Lightfoot gets more minutes than Robinson this year and this team doesn’t win the NC Bill should be scrutinized harshly.
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Teams with no post presence don’t make the final four. If Diallo could have potentially given us a post presence we should have played him over Lucas. Plain and simple. Lucas gave us a higher floor, but a much, much lower ceiling. Bill’s competitiveness might very well be his biggest fault. He doesn’t let players play through mistakes (except a select few teachers pets). Being a 1 seed is important and statistics back that up. But a talented team on a roll is the scariest thing in the NCAA tournament. Ask South Carolina, UCONN, UK, Danny Manning, Butler, 2012 KU, etc. The most important thing is that we are playing our best basketball at the end of April. I’d rather be a team talented enough to win a NC who is a red hot 4 seed than a 1 seed with noticeable faults and a small margin for error.
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It isn’t fair to the talent we have in the back court to play it safe in the front court. Players don’t always know what is best, and Bills job is to make the tough decisions and predict the future correctly. I can’t confidently say that he has. From my point of view he has been too short-sided in his decision making and I believe that stems purely from his competitive drive. Unfortunately it apprears Bills biggest strength and weakness is his desire to win. If he never strikes a balance between winning individual games and seeing the big picture, I fear that he will never live up to his coaching potential. We all know he has the talent to be a top 5 coach of all-time. But he has to go on one of those historic runs all great coaches have, and In today’s college game part of that is being able to win with Freshmen being major contributors. K and Cal have adjusted. Bill can too.
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I say this as a Landen Lucas. That is exactly who I was for my high school basketball team. I was. 5’11 C. I rebounded well and was always in the right spot. I kicked the backup C ass every day in practice. He was 6’3 and 215lbs. He could dunk while I could barely grab the rim. He could block 5 shots in a game and I may have blocked 5 shots the entire season. Coach should have played him. Even if, at first, team chemistry would have suffered. He had the higher upside. If we were going to be a good team, he would have had to been the one to play. I gave us a higher floor, but I am a big enough man to admit that he had a much, much higher ceiling than I did. Even if I could outsmart him at practice and use technique and experience to beat him day in and day out. By the time sub-state rolled around, who knows what type of player he would have been had he gotten PT and been given the chance to play through mistakes. It is so frustrating as a coach to watch someone make mistakes in a game. But so much of that is neevousness and comfort level. You only get comfortable when you get enough PT and know that you won’t get yanked out after one or two mistakes.
A coaches job isn’t to win games, it is to win championships, or at the very least, exceed expectations. We have to be lying to ourselves to think Bill is exceeding them in March. Elite 8 losses have to end some way some how. I’m in no way advocating to get rid of Bill. Ever. I still think he is the best guy in the country to run our program. It doesn’t mean we can’t scrutinize decisions he has made and expect him to adjust or learn from mistakes.
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Final thought. We need him. The last two times we had a Robinson on the team we made it to a National a championship…
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@Kcmatt7 I think they would’ve announced it by now.
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@KUSTEVE word on the street is… Coach Self said KU is willing to spend whatever it takes to get you cleared. If we are going to make that kind pf commitment to you we need you to commit to playing one year for us. If you are not cleared you suit up for 2018-2019. So the ball is in Robinsons court. He either plays for KU or goes abroad. It would mess up recruiting and KU’s basketball program would spend alot money getting him cleared. I think he will announce soon but he has to make up his mind and the sooner he does the sooner KU can start the paperwork to get him cleared.
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@HighEliteMajor I didn’t poll the team- Bill did. Ok, so all of our losses are Landen’s fault. Landen made our guards shoot poorly. Landen made Devonte shoot 0 for 7 against Oregon. Landen made Perry and Wayne collapse against Villanova. Come on, you’re confabulating.
Once they put Landen in the starting lineup (after they lost by 19 to Okie St), they won 17 games in row, before losing to the eventual national champion. So, the heinous move bit us once, although when it bit, it bit hard. Here’s the real scoop: we haven’t had a real front line since 2012. Period. Diallo was cast off by the starters and the coach. Was it a bad call? In hindsight…yes, it was, imho. If Diallo could’ve worked through the mistakes, and helped us win against Nova, it was worth it. Jamari was thrown around like a rag doll against the big guy from Nova. No doubt there was some teacher’s pet going on, like you said. To say it was some great colossal mistake is hyperbole on your part. 17-1 is NOT failure.
To say he would start Lightfoot over Robinson is ridiculous. Instead of making up storylines that haven’t occurred to project your distrust of the coach, why don’t you hone in on our true failure…our Elite 8 record where we play tight as drum, and our offense completely collapses?
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@KUSTEVE I don’t. He has spent like 24 hours with the coaches. Coaches he has no rapport with because we didn’t even try to really recruit him. A big decision for this kid.
With that being said, I think we see him announce in the next day or two
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I feel it is important to settle this right now. Mitch will definitely get a lot of minutes this year.
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mayjay said:
I feel it is important to settle this right now. Mitch will definitely get a lot of minutes this year.
So you are saying we will have a lot of blowout victories. Hope you are right.
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Good vibes on the Robinson visit. That is all I am going to say.
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Good vibes on the Robinson visit. That is all I am going to say.
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Why did you have to say twice?
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@DoubleDD must me REALLY good vibes!
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Bad phone service where I’m at.
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No worries just giving you the business. You’re fine my friend.
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@DoubleDD LOL - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BAB
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OK, now plain and simple. YES OR NO Robinson lands at KU and how soon if so. - -Me I say yes & within the next Week. - -Let’s hear ya. = - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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I vote yes.
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This should get interesting…
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If he goes to school yes.
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any reports out there about his overseas possibility? What is his godfather up to?
Obviously this is a decision that he either has to stick with KU for 1,2 years at most or takes a route that will be challenging but not impossible to come back and be highly drafted next summer? Big decision to make. A lot of risk involved…
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BeddieKU23 said:
any reports out there about his overseas possibility? What is his godfather up to?
Obviously this is a decision that he either has to stick with KU for 1,2 years at most or takes a route that will be challenging but not impossible to come back and be highly drafted next summer? Big decision to make. A lot of risk involved…
Some LSU guy saying he will commit to LSU soon.
Based on what statmachine said, seems like he did get that line from Self. I just hope either way it’s decided and announced today.
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Europe is not what is used to be for American players and opportunities not as plentiful, particularly for an inexperienced player like Robinson. More likely destinations are Australia, New Zealand and China, although I understand that living and playing in China is a very trying experience and players cannot wait to leave; Europe can be equally as bad. Former ISU player Paul Shirley wrote a blogs for ESPN titled “My So-Called Career” that describes in vivid detail the trials and tribulation of playing in Europe; eye opening and not what you would expect. Michael Beasley was the League MVP in China and after two stints there he said he rather take his chances in the Summer League with the hope of latching on to a NBA team even it is is for the minimum rather than going back to China" he played for the Rockets and the Bucks in the last couple of years and now he signed with the Knicks for the veteran minimum.
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Language barrier in Europe and China makes it tough for lots of players off the court. Add to that the fact that US players are under a lot of pressure to be superstars because of the way the league rules work. In both Europe and China, each team only has so many “imports” they can have on the team. As a result, the “import” players have to be among the best on the team, if not the best.
In Australia, there isn’t really a language barrier, so the culture shock isn’t as great. Add to that there’s not as much pressure on a US player to be a league MVP level player and it’s a better developmental environment.
On another note, are we seriously re-litigating the Diallo vs. Lucas question? Diallo was raw, but better than Lucas. Self picked the steady production (the choice that has won 13 straight league titles) over the potential (the choice that could get you over the hump in March). There’s no question who had more talent. There’s no question who the better player was. It was Diallo, period.
If Mitchell Robinson comes to KU, there’s no reason for him to play only 10-12 minutes. If he even thinks that’s a possibility, he will not (and should not) come. For his own development it doesn’t make sense to come to KU if he is going to play that little. That’s a lost year of development.
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I think you have a pretty good read on Int’l ball.
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After watching and re-watching Diallo’s high school super performances, I was absolutely drooling at his KU signing. Then reality leaped into the fray and his summer and early season progress were absolutely stymied. Crushed. By now we all know full well that player development under Bill Self is a slow but steady process; and those early non-con games are essential to a freshman’s moving forward to fit into dependable team play by the meat of the league season. Cheick just wasn’t destined to be ready when needed. A kid who might have become one of the most exciting players in the Bill Self years faded into the varnish of the pine. Can’t blame him for packing his bags and moving on. He was much more confident in his potential than were his Jayhawk teammates and many college pundits. As it has turned out, justifiably so. Conversely, I don’t blame our coaching staff for not gambling on his playing time vs. that of the lesser talented but more knowledgeable Lucas. The situation was one big clusterfidaddle.
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A commitment from both sides is the only option. Since he ultimately decided to transfer and KU is one of the only schools with a Scholarship this late in the year he doesn’t have many other options. Fortunately for him KU has one scholarship to give. If he were seeking representation or an agent to play over seas it would be ALL over the news. I think this young mans heart was set on being an OAD and because he let others close to him make decisions for him he is (possibly if he doesn’t get to play this year) now forced to do something he doesn’t want to do. He had a good visit with the coaching staff at KU and no news at this point is good news. If he were going to take another visit or seeking an agent we would probably have heard something. That could still happen today for all I know but at least there hasn’t been any news confirming KU is out.
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Someone on the shiver reported something over an hour ago. KU6thman was his user name. I cant read it because I am not a vip. I am not going to pay for recruiting updates!
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@Statmachine Just asking Matt for an update. Matt knows nothing.
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@Statmachine I asked my manager buddy and he didn’t have any info either though so it may be true that there isn’t any news.
I am not sure if we will here a decision for another week or so. I’m confident that Robinson will, and should, meet with an agent to talk about his overseas options. He wouldn’t be doing his due diligence if he doesn’t at least explore the idea.
Mitchell is a really old freshmen so he needs to think hard about all of this. He will be 20 already when we are halfway through this first season.
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@Kcmatt7 I guess we will all be holding our breathe until we hear what’s going on?
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TBH I really think he thought he could just ride to pine for a season and enter the draft. I think Coach Self said “no way Jose”. That is why he said he would know what he was going to do this weekend shortly after his visit on one of his accounts. Now that he has to commit to suit up for a season no matter the outcome of the NCAA he doesn’t know what to do?
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I would also imagine there is still some family turmoil over what to do as well.
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@Statmachine I wonder if we can legally have him sign something saying he will play a year for us before he goes pro? Like a Non-compete clause.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@Statmachine I wonder if we can legally have him sign something saying he will play a year for us before he goes pro? Like a Non-compete clause.
No.
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@Kcmatt7 Let me rephrase that: he could sign one but it would not be enforceable and would probably get KU in trouble.
