Coleby Transfers
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I’m a bit nervous about losing Dwight.
If you go over to KUSports website, Tom mentions possible minute distributions for next year.
At the 5 we have Doke. Behind him is small guys without big boy bodies. So… we have Doke at the 5 and that is pretty much it. We know he will be pushed on conditioning and he is a risk at foul trouble.
What happens when we face a team with a good 5? He goes inside and draws 2 fouls on Doke in the first 5 minutes? You know that is going to happen.
Dwight offered girth. He was a reasonable defensive backup.
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The way basketball is being played now, having a big, punishing 5 man is bordering on obsolete. Pace and space is the new black of fashionable basketball. That’s the way the game is being played. There’s still room for a mobile big man like Azuibuke, but bigs that are not mobile are finding themselves without a real place in today’s game. We have entered the era of positionless basketball and the era of the stretch 5 simultaneously.
KU’s best lineup last year may have been one they used for less than 10 total minutes all season - Jackson, Svi, Vick, Graham, Mason. That lineup doesn’t just lack a traditional 5, it doesn’t have a traditional inside player at all. But here’s the question that every team would have had to ask against that lineup - who do you put your big man on? You can’t guard Jackson with a big guy. He will torch him. If your big can’t chase Svi out to the three point line, that’s trouble. Same for Vick and you can forget about putting a big man on Graham or Mason. And unless you have a big man that can literally score every time in the post against Jackson or Svi, your size advantage is rendered irrelevant.
That’s where basketball is going. If you aren’t mobile as a big man, you can basically forget it unless you are able to bull your way to the rim and score 7 out of 10 times, and even then, teams are going to put you in so many pick and rolls that your head will spin. Did you see what Steph Curry did to Rudy Gobert last week. Basically turned one of the best shot blockers in the world into a pretzel on the perimeter.
Good 5 men are much less valuable now because you can exploit them on the other end defensively by forcing them to come out and guard shooters on the perimeter (or rain open threes). It’s an athletes game. Look at the best two big men in this year’s recruiting class - Ayton and Bamba. Both are slender athletes that can run and jump and catch lobs. That’s today’s game. Unfortunately, Coleby returning from his injury is a throwback to a time that has passed. I hope he regains his explosiveness, but I understand his decision to move on and wish him the best of luck.
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How well did it work for Purdue with its two big men Swanigan and Haas?
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@justanotherfan Great post! Perfectly described the shifting paradigm of today’s game, it’s happening in the NBA, and its now happening in college.
Size can matter, but only if it comes with mobile, happy feet. Look at Embiid. He may be 7ft, 270lbs, but he is a ridiculous athlete, he can pop threes, he can drive by you (now). If there’s any hope for a 5man, they have to have the mobility/agility/in-out-versatility mold.
Agree 100%.
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This is too bad. I was looking forward to Dwight’s development this year into a reliable post player. I share @drgnslayr’s concern about the lack of interior players. I know we have proven we can survive without it as @justanotherfan pointed out, but we didn’t survive because Oregon killed us inside when our outside game disappeared at the worst possible time against Oregon. I just think balance is better.
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@wissox agree, also, there’s no josh Jackson to play the 4 spot!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Why is JJ going pro?
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@wissox school out?
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@wissox I don’t like it- not one little bit. I am afraid beyond Doke, we aren’t going to have that much. At least size wise.
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True 5’s are rare commodities. KU will in better shape next season than this past season in the paint even with Coleby leaving. UA, Whitman, and Preston are all capable of playing and defending in the low post.
KU has the depth to play a more traditional 2 big line up next year than this past year.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I hope you are right. I haven’t heard anything great about whitmans D and the few games I’ve seen of Preston, doesn’t appear he likes to get after it.
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Don’t count Mitch out. He played good defense and he is an opportunistic rebounder, he just needed bulk to stay with the bigger players…one summer of Hudization might do wonders for him.
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@JayHawkFanToo Lightfoot is a great kid and I think nothing but the best of him. But I’ve always wondered even when he signed just how he fit Self’s big system? I’m sorry he doesn’t hold a candle to Condor and he had the slowest feet I’ve ever seen on a 6-10 Center. Also, the two have a lot of similarities. I’d take Condor because he at least played with some physical players and actually put Opie Taylor aka Tyler Handstoobored, what his name? in his place during that KU UNC game. Then I remember OKC and UNI. UGH UGH the pain and I drive by the Chesapeak, formerly Ford Center every day.
I hope you’re right. I hope Lightfoot comes back in beast mode with an attitude. But I think LFoot looks more choir boy than PF in D1 basketball. Have you seen his arms? Hudy needs to get that kid on something and get him some bulk.
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@KUSTEVE I worry about Doke’s stamina. He will need some breathers. That kid plays his heart out up and down the court all night long. He will wear down and foul out if Self doesn’t manage his wind.
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@Crimsonorblue22 6 more days!!!
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Don’t sell Mitch short. He was the Arizona Gatorade player of the year and at the Ballislife All American game he led all scores with a record 32 points including 27 in the second half to a win. Look at the rosters and you will see some very familiar names including Charlie Moore and Sam Cunlife and other big names including Lonzo Ball, TJ Leaf, Miles Bridges, Terrance Ferguson, Andrew Jones among others; at least 3 first round picks in the upcoming Draft.
I believe he will be a serious contributor before he is done; Coach Self seems to think so as well.
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@JayHawkFanToo when @Kcmatt7 told us awhile back coleby was leaving he also said ltfoot was playing awful.
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We will find out in about two and a half months…
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You make a good case for teams going 5 out and 0 in.
But consider this: isn’t the correct strategic response to 5-0, or 4-1, a zone, or switching m2m, that keeps your bigs from chasing on defense, and lets them kick ass inside on the glass on defense, and inside on offense?
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This may be the death of Muscle ball as we see it? Go back 5 years and I’m not sure Coach lets Colby leave. Was last year the beginning of a new dawn of KU basketball?
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Its also possible that Self has another hat rabbit to announce and he happens to slot in where Colby plays. Or perhaps Colby struggled academically. I really can’t imagine Colby left because he didn’t want to play 15-20 mpg at an elite major, or that Self sent him packing because Self has fallen in love with small ball.
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But Oregon didn’t kill us offensively with Bell. He protected the rim with his athleticism and used his quickness on the glass.
Jackson could have matched Bell’s quickness and athleticism.
@jaybate-2-0
You can switch, but sooner or later, a switch will be late, or someone will get backcut and you give up a layup or open three anyway.
Zone is too vulnerable to perimeter shooting. You have to be able to match up man to man.
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Will miss an athletic, fast-twitch banger like Coleby. The Wm&Mary guy may be more versatile, we’ll see. He will definitely have the crowd going with fake 'staches…
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I think I became my own devil’s advocate in my previous post.
I’m the guy who is “pro x-axis”… pro 4-guard lineup… pro small ball. But I posted my fear of our possibility of being short on girth in the post.
I felt good about having Dwight on our team to backup Doke. Dwight wasn’t a tremendous defender, but he often showed how his girth helped us in the post.
I’m never for adding a big girthy slow poke in the post. Our 5s need to be able to get out and run. Run back on defense and stop a score… run out on a break and finish at the other end, often putting back a missed layup… run around in the half court and not be a ball and chain for the rest of our defense. Dwight was reasonable in those areas and was supposedly still getting his snap back.
Essentially… we have traded Dwight for Jack. Jack’s offense in the low post should definitely be a plus. I just wonder about his defense. Will he get pushed around or will he stand his ground like Dwight did?
The Oregon game still haunts me. We were completely dominated in the paint. Dominated. I know Doke changes that… but only if he stays out of foul trouble and improves his condition to be able to run.
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@justanotherfan Your post “oregon didnt kill us offensively with Bell”, only made me think about that game, which was like seeing old footage of a bomber getting attacked in a running battle and then finally going down in a long downward blaze.
Bell didnt kill us offensively, but he F’n owned Lucas. Lucas couldnt do anything. Totally exposed. Athleticism is a currency all its own, Bell possesses, Lucas clearly does not. BigDoke has it (but does he have the conditioning?), eventhough from skillset standpoint, Doke is still raw. But look what Doke did even in 1 game against Duke. Coleby had it–nasty quick stickback dunks after offensive rebounds. A rarity in 5yrs of Lucas. And, make no mistake, Bill Self replaced his “trusty” 5th yr senior in the starting lineup with Doke, only to lose Doke then to the ligament injury. Self made his choice early, which really messed with Lucas’ psyche for a few weeks.
Pedestrian post-play is how I’d describe last year without Doke. Let’s not get started about the hole in the floor that Bragg fell thru, all on his own. Because he did arrive with ability, we saw it as a frosh, even as early as the WUG games. But that’s pretty much on Bragg.
The most vexing thing about that Oregon game was watching the WRONG coached-gameplan for the 2nd half to make hot-hand Mason actually try to dish repeatedly to Lucas in the post. Take the ball out of Mason’s hands to “get teammates involved”. Tale of 2 halves: check Mason’s stats: 17pts 1st half, only 4pts 2nd half, and ask yourself why? When nobody in the nation was able to stop that tank from scoring? Come on, Bill–poor game mgmt–you stopped Frank. Josh tried the 2nd half. Should have been 2 alphas just going to work. Josh needed Frank to be Frank. Bill clearly wanted Frank to become Aaron Miles or RussRob in the 2nd half…(distributive PG), or so it would appear…
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@drgnslayr What we’ve been missing since Perry Ellis (who had his own shortcomings), is a money-man in the post. Prior to this last season, the weakest post starting tandem was 2013 with Withey and KYoung. Both were role players, Withey defensively and rebounds, and KYo the rebounds. That offense had to be highly orchestrated to put those guys in positions for scoring, thus putting a lot of pressure on the guards, which then led to breakdowns, like the whole TopekaY comment and Self blasting EJ and Naadir. In years past you could just give the ball to Marcus or Markieff or Thomas Robinson, and they could get a bucket a variety of ways on their own, in addition the the orchestrated set plays.
Lucas looked good against cupcakes, or unsuspecting foes in the paint who he could seal off and get a post entry feed, but he also got such perfectly executed plays blocked at the rim by recovering or help defenders who were athletic enough to do it. So of course that happens in March Madness in the E8. You will get exposed. And we have time and again. Stanford exposed P.Ellis in a different manner (couldnt score over length, and didnt have the brawn or the mentality to play as a power4. He a finesse4).
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I’m going to miss this guy next year.
See the doubt creeping into Bridges eyes?!? (No emoji for pee-puddle)
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Coleby looking at a bunch of Mid-Majors plus possibly Seton Hall… Believe he’s visiting Western Kentucky soon. Sounds like Dwight understands his limits and is looking for the right level to have a good final season. More evidence to suggest he was never in the cards for next year after the slow rehab
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BeddieKU23 said:
Coleby looking at a bunch of Mid-Majors plus possibly Seton Hall… Believe he’s visiting Western Kentucky soon. Sounds like Dwight understands his limits and is looking for the right level to have a good final season. More evidence to suggest he was never in the cards for next year after the slow rehab
Not surprising but thanks for the update.
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@BeddieKU23 WKU would be a great place for a guy like him. They have some young talent coming in that needs some vet leadership.
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Will be interesting to see if he’s scared by the OAD they signed Mitchell Robinson. Wherever he lands hopefully he’s healthy and has an opportunity
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In the press release, Self seemed to go out of his way to gush about Coleby. I’d say he’s leaving on the best terms I’ve seen in a long time.
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What a guy and great student athlete. DC came and filled a role that was needed during his time with the team. He truly did what he needed with the time he had at KU. I’m glad he got the chance to play and finish his degree at KU. He deserves nothing but the best in all he does. Rock Chalk Dwight
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Ya think we will be in 10 times better shape than last year with Preston>Bragg, Whittman>Coleby, Doke>LL, Sophomore Lightfoot> Freshman Lightfoot. If Svi stays in the draft we could land another big as well, maybe Justion or another grad transfer.
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@kjayhawks juiston signed w/unlv
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I’m not so sure on the grades theory. I really think Coach is changing his approach.
Lets be honest Muscle ball is great in the regular season, not so much in the tournament. When was the last great Muscle Ball champion? It just doesn’t play out like that anymore. The game is changing, and Coach is taking notice.
Sometimes the college game effects the NBA and sometimes the NBA effects the college game. At this point in history I think the NBA is effecting the college game.
The Three point shot and guard play are becoming king.
To many bigs coming out today can step out and play in the air force game. You can’t bruise a four when they can’t beat you off the dribble and pull up for the spot three.
The game is changing.
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Recruiting, seeding and whistle asymmetries appear to be forcing lots of improvisation among the school’s like KU that appear to be getting shorted.
Duke, UK and UNC, and anyone that can still get the horses, appear to be playing more and more conservatively and using bump and grind to win the Carney.
Self apparently has no choice but to improvise. He cant really fill a roster with credible bigs as he once could, and as Duke, UNC and U.K. Still can.
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@kjayhawks I’m not sold on Whitman yet, I hope I’m wrong.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Didnt see the Justion news, I thought that ship sailed but I don’t think Self will sit on a scholarship ether. My bet would be that Svi returns at this point. I’m excited about Whitman, Kevin Young was from a smaller school and was a big part of the 12 FF team and Tarik Black was a really good grad transfer for us ( he would’ve looked a ton better had Joel been healthy).
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One more thought,:it’s pretty clear from the rule changes the last few seasons that TPTB want more treys and driving and less banging and so THAT’s why you see less bang ball among the shorted teams , but still some from apparently favored programs like Duke, UNC and U.K.
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@kjayhawks yeah I loved those 2. Weird feeling I guess. Any nados around your area? Not much but rain here. There were plenty around ks though!
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I don’t see a lot of banging anymore. I’m not saying I like it. Just acknowledging what I’m seeing.
A four has to dribble and hit the spot three, and a five has to block everything.
You’re right the rules may have changed how the game is being played.
I’m actually sad to see Colby leave. I feel us KU fans are being cheated with what Coach could do with him. However Coaching is a job and Coach has a job. He has to do what he thinks he has to do.
Basketball always has changes. It’s the only think we can count on. Just glad Coach is leading KU into the new changes.
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I think the Coleby transfer deal has come clearer into focus. The KC Star reported that Self and Coleby talked and it was arrived at that Coleby would be best served going somewhere else. Right, he wasn’t going to play.
Coleby said, “It’s tough to leave but something that had to be done,” Coleby said. “He (Self) said he didn’t want me to leave, but he agreed it was probably best for my future. If I could put up the numbers it probably would be the best thing I could do.”
Self said, “Dwight and I have visited about this multiple times since the end of our season and he has worked so hard academically to put himself in a position to make this decision,” Self said. “We wish Dwight nothing but the very best moving forward. He felt the opportunity to go to a place and have the option to play quite a bit more and have more of a significant role would enhance his chances to play professionally in the future.”
Jack Whitman’s arrival sealed the deal.
Coleby was nudged out. Strategically. Gently. Diplomatically. Zero doubt now. One of those deals where Self supplied the information and Coleby was left to make the decision – maybe not this harsh, but “Dwight, we love you. We want you to stay. But you won’t play much.”
We’ve seen it before.
Self did the guy a favor. And he cleared a scholarship. Funny how that works.
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I’m a big believer in the idea that we view the world with a subjective POV and a lens in search of some slightly more accurate objective understanding of things “out there” acquired through discourse. Each of us has a POV that can be more or less similar and dissimilar with other aliases. The lens we look through at the game of basketball tends to be the KU lens. What we regularly watch, becomes what we look for, and notice either the presence, or absence of, and praise, or question, when we think about the game more generally. We project not only our present lens of KU basketball, but our past lens of KU basketball, on to the game generally. In turn, we perceive changes in the game, when we see changes in KU basketball, or fail to see changes in KU basketball. It can be a tricky process of analysis. Some of these changes in the game that we perceive are real, and others are less so, or not at all. The role of discourse here, and, of statistics, and reflection on apparent perceptions, is to get closer to a characterization of what is going on out there than we can achieve from our single points of view.
Thus disagreement does not necessarily imply “spinning my words,” or lying, or insouciance (though it certainly can imply any or all of these), but rather different POVs looking through the KU lens and possible inferential error about KU and about the game at large.
You may be quite right that there is less banging. I tend to agree that there is less, because of rules changes, and the asymmetries I have mentioned in recruiting, seeding pathways, and whistles a coach has to anticipate, rather than an insight on Self’s part that less banging is a more effective means to win at basketball no matter what.
Change the rules and asymmetries back to the way they were 8-10 years back and bang ball would be back on the upswing.
Change the rules and asymmetries back to the way they have been the last 2-3 seasons and what we now observe would once again be on the upswing.
We live in a highly managed and engineered age in which use of rules and asymmetries in broad application to achieve objectives that benefit a few, and shift costs onto the many, or to the context, or both, has been normalized. Maybe it has always been this way, but we can be highly confident it is this way now.
This game, as do most organized activities in our cultures, over time tend to take on, and so embody, the techniques and values of its times.
Like beauty, banging is not entirely in the eye of the beholder, but it is surely partly in the eye of the beholder.
Thus, I can speculate that while we agree banging has lessened, we disagree some on the drivers of the diminishment and on how consistent and pervasive it is around the college game.
Banging seems pretty prevalent when you play Jaimie Dixon’s team, or Tubby Smith’s team, where they are having to make due with less skilled players until they can ramp up the talent to more skilled players. Thus they muscle up and then play a rougher game aimed to disrupt the more highly skilled teams in the Top 20.
But further I think playing more and more skilled players in a more and more finesse game reaches a point of diminishing returns at places like Duke, UNC, and UK, where they can and do regularly load up on more top players than non Nike schools like KU can apparently attract.
Basically, if you can attract great physical talents with great skills and at most all the size ranges available, these players can play either a skill/finesse game, or a power game. So: a coach like K, or Roy, or Cal, thinks we should always be a little more physical than our skill level may require, because since we have the numbers, whenever we take the game into a physical realm where more fouls are called, we win a war of attrition game and then once they are fouled up, then we overwhelm them with our athleticism and skill.
Self has often tried to do this, too, against lesser teams, but increasingly he just does not have the horses inside and the numbers across the board of Final Four caliber players to play this way effectively in the tournament. So: Self has defaulted to a more skilled and finesse-style game that eventually runs into a deep team that can beat up on KU,. especially on a cold shooting night.
As always, the teams with the most talented players in the greatest number of the kind of physical and skill attributes best suited to the positions on a 5 man basketball team are the ones good coaches can take the farthest and more often win rings with. If you have fewer good bigs you play more on the perimeter. If you have more good bigs, you play more inside. If you have both, you attack the opponent’s weakness regardless.
Pointing out a a winner like UConn a few years ago is just the exception that proves the rule.
Self keeps trying to get as many great players as he can at as many positions as he can, and he jumps at any big man with talent and skill, or the potential for acquiring both, because at the end of the game, a footer is still a footer, and jumpers jump shorter and shorter verticals.
It has never been essential to have bigs, but it has always been desirable.
It has never been essential to have out side shooters, but it has always been desirable.
It has never been essential to have guys that can both bang and transition, but it has always been desirable.
Underneath it is all is a calculus not unlike that of navy admiral thinking about what combination of ships can bring the most force to bear most advantageously on an opponent. When subs went nuclear in drive and their weapon payloads they moved up the pecking order of importance in the attack regime, but they did not eliminate the desire of the admiral to have aircraft carriers. Battleships are also useful in a digital age, because their 16 inch shells are dumb and so not susceptible to gps interference the way smart weapons are. But the admiral sure as hell wants the best new smart weapons and the best old weapons, also. Study of strategy endlessly teaches that the old and new persist in tandem, because there are synergies in retaining both, especially during transitions to more emphasis on the modern. But study of strategy also teaches us that only the best admirals see clearly what the right mix of old and new strategies is. Coach K, Roy and Cal have had good strategic vision among those with lots of talent. Perhaps Roy has had the best based on how many rings he has won the last 13 years. But what they have done has a common denominator of an abundance of talent significantly in excess of what Self has had most seasons, especially over the last 3.
Hope this clarifies my thinking to you. The way I think about things precludes me from becoming prickly about differences of opinion, speculation, and facts. I only become playfully poking, when confronted with neurotically, and/or calculatedly provocative rhetorical techniques aimed at smearing and thread cracking. And even then I remain playful. You never seem engage in those kinds of activities and so I both respect you for it, and learn from you from time to time.
Rock Chalk!
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Agreed.
Coleby apparently given the choice of stay and sit, transfer and play (aka SASTAP).
I think William and Mary has an opening.
One more thought. Imagine how much Self must wanted to run Bragg to drive him away by playing another guy he wanted to run!
Yet one more thought: running two guys at the same position in a single off season, one with the other, and one with an incoming transfer, THAT is a new level of hardness even for Self!
Players in roster slots 8, 9 and 10 that aren’t constantly looking to transfer out of KU are fooling themselves. The only reason to come to KU as an 8-10 guy is to grade up and transfer ASAP!
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@jaybate-1.0 All the stuff with Bragg adds up to a guy with a major marijuana problem. Lots of whispers on that topic. But he seems like a guy with a good attitude. Was positive on the bench. That has to be it. And it would explain his middling performance. But of course, there may be other off court stuff beyond what we know, or facts that aren’t public too.
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@HighEliteMajor Agree on Bragg, and now he picks a party school, AzState, as a place to try to get serious
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JhwkrRedLegs said:
Agree on Bragg, and now he picks a party school, AzState, as a place to try to get serious
Matbe he is going to a school where the partying kids can teach him how to handle it better!
