Starters next game
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Holy Cross is quite a test. They beat the juggernaut Harvard Crimson by a point. We better be very careful how we construct our lineup. Certain guys just aren’t ready for crunch time in a contest like this. I sure hope we play a 60-50 game here. If we just go out and make shots, then that will give us a false sense of security on our other phases of the game.
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@HighEliteMajor I see your sarcasm but I actually do think they will test us. Not because of their talent, or size, or anything other than their tempo. They play one of the slowest tempos in all of college basketball. With all the talk we’ve had about the big guys, this game will only be a blow out if the guards can pressure the ball and push them into an up-tempo game. Bill Self will try this early. We will see the press. But if they play flat or tired or too many minutes or not focused or uneven or foul too much, it may very well end up being 60-50!
But you better believe the bigs will make sure no Holy Cross player will dunk without getting put to the floor!
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@RockChalkRedlock More likely he would say we don’t win the game without Hunter, thereby boosting the guy he maybe should have given more minutes!
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Don’t get your hopes up about Mickelson getting more playing time. He might get a couple more minutes than fall right back down to where he was.
He said it about Mickelson last year and nothing changed.
Self said the same thing about Frankamp TWICE his freshmen year but nothing changed.
He said it about Andrew White.
Said it about Geeene his Freshman year.
The only common detonator in these situations is Self never honestly changed anything.
Mickelson can go for 20 and 15. But when the games on the line, he will be riding the pine.
I feel bad for Hunter. He deserved a chance to play ball somewhere.
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@JhawkAlum or perhaps they under perform at practice after he says these things?
Maybe coach says these things to open the door for them and then they go to practice and underperform or when they do get in the games they forget what they are to do?
I don’t know I have never been to a Bill Self coached practice. Have you?
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@JRyman Not a fan of passive aggressive communication but I’ll reply.
I have not been to a practice. It seems unlikely that all of those players just happened to start underperforming the moment Self said that.
But if that is the basis of how you think, I hope I don’t ever see you question who Self plays because you aren’t at practice.
Question his strategy against an opponent because you weren’t at their film session.
Be critical of Self’s in game adjustments because you weren’t in there at half time.
Wonder why Self didn’t nab a recruit because you didn’t accompy him while he was on the recruiting trails.
But it is my assumption (even though I’ve never been in your house or watched a game with you) that you been critical of Self in one way or another. Also assuming here, but I would also bet it’s because you have seen the same thing over and over.
When you see the same thing happen repeatedly with different players, it’s fair to say it was Self. Not the player.
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@benshawks08 boy me too, I suffered all through the summer months, waiting for this Baseball is soooooo, boring and to think I used to Love baseball, I played baseball, actually worked out at a minor tryout for the Cincinnati Reds in the 70’s was a pitcher, and a left handed pitcher at that, and in the 70’s lefties were a big deal not as many as today use to love it, but now as I’m older I wonder how I ever managed it, just drags out. BUT anyways I am so ready for games, and it seems probably just me but it seem are games are really spread out, seems like we use to almost play every other night a few years back now not so much. Or maybe its because I’m older and my little peaa brain doesn’t remember as well lol, but I’m ready ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@JhawkAlum nothing passive aggressive to what I said. But it’s arguable depending on wait side you see it from so I’ll stop with it here.
I have stated many times to many other posters the same thing about practice. We aren’t there so how are we to know who should be playing in certain situations. Who should be starting against certain teams. What offense we should run.
We can all voice opinions but to pass ten off like a fact or knowledge of the situation is a farse at best.
I don’t know if you’ve played sports or at what level. But there are some guys are gamers, they aren’t great prescribe guys but they kill it in games. There’s other guys who show up to practice as all Americans but in a game and under the bright lights the faulter.
There are guys that are great teammates on teams and guys who don’t mesh well with his fellow players.
A coaches job or his staff is to figure out who is who. In a young season they rely on practice die to not having enough game film to represent each and every player in a position to get playing time.
As a fan, short for fanatic, I do get to yell at my tv, shake my head and ask why. But as someone who has played, coached and worked camps I get it. I get that there are things we don’t see or know. Things we don’t even have a clue about. Any good coach is t going to show his hand I. A post game interview or on his weekly radio show. It’s called gamesmanship.
That could also be a reason coach self isn’t playing the young ones is due to hiding them from scouting reports? I don’t know. Just an opinion as I have no insider knowledge or contact with coach.
For all those players you listed and to why they’d didn’t play?? I don’t know I was offering an idea an opinion. Then again it’s coach Selfs system maybe they just didn’t want to follow it his way? Of they came to KU they knew what they were getting into. If they didn’t then wow that’s on them for just guessing how it was going to be.
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@Statmachine LET me ask you this bud, just asking don’t want it to come across the wrong way, as I also understand, BUT do you feel its right because a kid is a 5 star recruit and that kid has had pretty much whatever he wants through out his high school days, do you feel that its right for a 5 star player to expect to come in to a school and just have a starting spot handed to him without working and earning it? I do feel that maybe Self feels to a certain point has a obligation to 3 and 4 year players that have put in the time to develop, he feels that obligation to play them, start them UNTIL the quote unquote 5 STAR actually shows, proves and actually earns that starting spot instead of just handed to them on a platter. It’s great to have one and dones, but no matter you have to have and you need to have those 3 and 4 year solid role players also, and they bust their ass, and I personally would if it came down to it, I would just as soon as you mentioned, I would just as soon have the 3-4 year player that are willing to put in the time and work hard to get where they are and is or really cares about the school instead of a bunch of 1 and done to where they aren’t even at the school long enough to care about the school, all they are is just a bunch of NBA robots, just curious, do you feel it’s fair or for them to believe that they should be handed that starting spot without earning that spot, like any other player on the roster? ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@JRyman If you were actually wondering if I’ve been to practices, then I apologize. But if it was a rhetoric question under the assumption that I haven’t, it was most certainly passive aggressive.
Being frustrated with the lack of in game strategies is doing exactly what you are so against. How do you KNOW there weren’t a lot of changes.
As fans, all we have are assumptions. If you haven’t seen Lucas shoot the 3, it’s a reasonable conclusion to assume he can’t shoot the 3 even though you aren’t there at practice watching him practice jumpers.
Likewise, if we have seen Self say “He deserves more playing time” and the players PT doesn’t change in the long run, why would we expect anything different?
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@JhawkAlum look I get it. Everyone is upset that we had a close game with Harvard. I get that people aren’t happy about Diallo not playing at the 5 for 30 mins a game.
I get that people want to voice their complaints and angst as the season goes on.
One of the things I was trying to get at was to look at it another way and not just half empty.
Look after the MSU game I raised questions and had opinions. I’m not saying one can’t. Just saying look at it in a different way.
You aren’t the first nor will you be the last that I’ve thrown that out there on about being at practice. If I say something that sounds like I’ve been there then please call me out on it.
Checks and balances.
It’s all good to disagree. If not then why is anyone here? Is that passive aggressive? Nope but that was
Anything between *** and *** sarcasm font.
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Everybody wants to play. I agree with @JRyman on that.
But the thing is, some guys know they aren’t ready for D1 ball yet. Those guys are generally your 1 and 2 star players. At KU, other guys realize they aren’t going to start because they flat can’t out play some of the other guys in practice every day. That’s what happens to 3 star talent at KU. Those guys simply cannot hang with the elite players.
The four star guys is where it starts getting interesting, because some of these guys were underrated at HS players, and could have been 5 stars if they had gone to the right school or been on the right AAU team, etc. But for many 4 star players, particularly at KU, they have a limited number of elite recruiting options. Programs aren’t holding spots open for them. Legerald Vick jumped at the KU opportunity, but that opportunity existed only because Malik Newman, Jaylen Brown and others went elsewhere. If the question was Vick or those guys, Vick ends up somewhere else. That’s the nature of the 4 star player.
So because of that, 4 star guys may look for PT, but they are also going to go to the best possible program that mixes PT with overall opportunity and experience.
But 5 stars can go anywhere. @Statmachine is right. If I am a 5 star and I see that now, two years in a row, KU has landed top recruits and they are in the bottom 5 among top 25 recruits in minutes, that would give me pause. I’m gonna go to KU and sit behind a guy that, on his career, averages 5 points and 4 rebounds, or 4 points and 4 rebounds? Really?
If we aren’t going to play a top 10 recruit, then why recruit a top 10 recruit. There is no argument that can be made that either Lucas or Traylor is as good at basketball as Bragg or Diallo. NONE And yet they sit. Don’t recruit over a guy if you aren’t going to play over him.
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I hate to break it to you but every 3 star and above ranked player thinks he is the next Jordan or LeBron and college is a rude awakening for most since they are convinced they will be starting form day one. Look at the recruiting boards and you will see low ranked recruits with lists that include all elite programs…some are downright laughable…that is the current generation and its sense of entitlement rahther than hard work.
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@JRyman I have been on record to saying I don’t think the 5 point win is a big deal. I also said that Lucas was our best chance of winning that game.
Diallo only playing 7 minutes and winning by 5 was irrelevant to my post.
I said Mickelson won’t see a different in PT because Self has never significantly changed someone role after stating they deserve for playing time.
And I will be the ultimate troll to you now :).
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So you’re going to make the case that Landon and Traylor should start over and play more minutes than Bragg and Diallo?
No serious question? Please do tell, because I’ve yet to hear a point view that has changed my mind that Bragg and Diallo shouldn’t garner the most minutes to play along side the designer.
Yet then again what do I know as I don’t attend practices and don’t coach the game. I’m just that fan that has no right to an opinion even though I watch ever game I can and even pay money to watch those games.
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…and where did I say that? Are you sure you meant to reply to me?
I simply indicated that most every players thinks he is a star and has a rude awakening once he gets to college…what does this have to do with Lucas and Traylor?
But since you brought it up…
Bragg and Diallo have a much higher ceiling than Lucas, Traylor or Mickelson. No one disputes this.
In a couple of months Bragg and Diallo might be playing better than Lucas, Traylor or Mickelson. No one disputes this.
Right now, Bragg and Diallo are not better than Lucas, Traylor or Mickelson. No one should disputes this either after watching Bragg and Diallo at the Harvard game,.
Again, I am not talking about potential, or who is better one or two month from now, or whether they should be playing to learn regardless…I am simply stating that…at this time…Lucas, Traylor and Mickelson are better players than Bragg and Diallo. Of course it is just my opinion and I am sure some will disagree.
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Maybe Bragg and Diallo could be better in mere weeks if they got the playing time? It’s been my experience the only way to get better is to play. Alas I guess will have to wait until conference play is almost over before these two actually get to play. Then coach will have a short leash on them. Please do tell me again how KU is going to win a NC with Laden and Traylor manning the paint? I need some Kool-Aid to drink.
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Again, read my post. I never said that Traylor and Lucas are the long term solutio,n but they are the better option until Bragg and Diallo become productive…and KU needs to win games until they are ready, right?
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If Coach can’t play Diallo and Bragg against the likes of Harvard, then when will they play?
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@DoubleDD you are whining
koolaid! They will play before the end of conference, ok?
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If coach can’t play Bragg and Diallo against the likes of Harvard? Then will they play?
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Nah not whining. Just know talent when I see it. Not playing the likes of Bragg and Diallo only delays the learning curve.
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@DoubleDD ok, just trying to make you feel better!
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They will play when Coach Self feels it will benefit the team and the players the most…he really, really is a good coach and makes an ungodly amount of money to make just this type of decisions and he will know when the time is right. Trying to will something, over which you have no control, to happen will only give you an ulcer.
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Tonight could very well be the night. Coach Self has been on the recruiting trail. He needs to show potential recruits something. Speaking of potential, wasn’t Steph Curry once a recruit that a lot of D-1 Schools passed on? Could you imagine the recruiting war in hindsight? Wow. It appears in that situation, all he needed was a chance. I see something special in Vick. I am not saying Steph Curry special, but he just has it, in my humble opinion. Looking forward to watching him play. As far as Diallo and Bragg, I am glad they do not appear to complain about their situation. There opportunity will come soon. It has to.
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Sounds like tonight we will see a shakeup in the bigs minutes. Self said Traylor is nursing an ankle injury, Landon has the toe injury. Perry has the hip… as long as we aren’t in a 2 possession game I think Self will let Bragg & Diallo play 15-20 minutes each…
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@JayHawkFanToo You said, “Right now, Bragg and Diallo are not better than Lucas, “______” or Mickelson. No one should disputes this either after watching Bragg and Diallo at the Harvard game.”
I’m looking at all games all players have played.
With that, I dispute your comment regarding “_______” and in large part Lucas. I don’t regarding Mickelson. Actually, in his time on the floor in two games, Diallo has been perhaps one of our most productive players. Bragg has had more minutes under his belt and thus more ups and downs. Diallo, when you look at his minutes played, has been better than all three of our vets.
Oddly, I’d say that our best player (per minute) has been Brannen Greene, for what that’s worth.
Both he and Diallo have only two game sample sizes, but they have been pretty good in their time on the floor. I’m not big on two game sample sizes though.
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@HighEliteMajor Yeah, tough to compare per minute production when the total minutes is barely 1 half of a basketball game. This has always been my problem comparing stats per minute. I know it’s about the fairest way to do it but it still isn’t fair. I mean, obviously Greene isn’t going to continue to shoot 100% from the field.
And to me there are a lot of less obvious contributors that make per minute comparisons tough when the subjects being compared have vastly different overall minutes. Things like fatigue, slumps, competition played against (not just teams but individual match-ups), role while in the game, pace of game while playing (I know they can take care of this one with per possession stats but again not the full picture), etc. Not to mention aspects that there are not even stats for, like hustle plays, correct positioning, energy exerted, energy given to the team, good passes that lead to missed shots, hockey assists. The list goes on and on.
I know you work with the best information available to you and often do a good job of providing some of that unquantifiable context in your analysis. Don’t think I am saying you don’t! However, all of this data, even when taken in context, can only give a snapshot of how well a player is playing. And it would be like that picture was taken from very far away with the camera from my old flip phone. You can see it, it just is pretty hard to make out anything with clarity.
Eventually it really comes down to “the eye test” and “feel” which is why there is so much disagreement because it’s all so subjective. Trying to make it not, neglects the full story. It’s why some coaches can cut it and others can’t. It’s why statisticians can be valuable assets but do not get paid like the coach.
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“If coach can’t play Bragg and Diallo against the likes of Harvard? Then will they play?”
Depends how they have been practicing.
We all want these guys to start getting minutes so they can become seasoned for March. Self wants that, too.
But this early in the season, it is important for these young potential stars to EARN their minutes and eventual starting position. EARNING minutes on a court helps young players take POSSESSION of their PT and become RESPONSIBLE and ACCOUNTABLE for what they do with their time on the court.
Self is spot on with his comments about players “getting it.” (or not)
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@benshawks08 One thing that I find very interesting is that Self many times goes against the stats. A good example is the Player Efficiency Rating. It is a well respected, advanced stat that uses a number of metrics to measure a player’s total contribution. It a great, all in one stat.
I don’t think any stat is ever the total picture, and the eye test is very important. I tend to think the stats do match the eye test a great deal of the time, and particularly with the one, most polarizing player on Kansas.
Last season, I felt that Cliff looked very good in his time on the court. I posted about it many times. I even said a few times that he was our best performer overall. Folks said that Self knew what he was doing. Fine.
However, Cliff’s Player Efficiency Rating (PER) last season was the best on the team among regulars. The best.
Our regulars, in order:
- Cliff
- Ellis
- Oubre
- Mason
- Greene
- Graham
- Lucas
- “______”
- Selden
This seemed to square, for me, exactly with the eye test except that I would have had Mason over Oubre and Selden ahead of “_____”. Again, this is related to net production during minutes on the court.
I felt Greene should have been starting over Selden as we moved into January. I said that. I suggested making him the 6th man off the bench because he was playing so badly, to change his perspective, to get him reenergized – I don’t know why Self didn’t do that, to be honest.
Actually, I think the PER stat provides us exactly what our best starting lineup should have been last season given the structure of the team. That may not always be the case, and probably isn’t.
By the way, Mickelson, who wasn’t a regular, would have been 2nd behind Cliff. After Maui, he was near the top this season. I haven’t checked it though recently. One of the reasons I am a big Hunter Mickelson fan is that, first, he looks good on the court. Many good qualities that we saw in Korea. Further, his stats back it up.
I really like your comment – “Not to mention aspects that there are not even stats for, like hustle plays, correct positioning, energy exerted, energy given to the team, good passes that lead to missed shots, hockey assists”
The eye test is really, really important.
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I’m going to wish upon a dream and pencil in Hunter as tonight’s surprise starter. He’ll play ten consecutive minutes before he gets yanked for Traylor, but that will be long enough for him to stuff the stat sheet to the tune of a half dozen points, rebounds, and two blocks. All of his defenders will feel exonerated even in the event he never sees the court again all season.
That said, I’ll have a slug of bourbon ready in case Lucas ambles onto the court for the opening tip.
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@benshawks08 Well put. I have always thought that the items you mention (“good passes that lead to missed shots”, etc.) are the ones that Self evaluates that most of us don’t see (or only see part of the time). Or if we see them…we don’t put as much value on these little things as coaches do. Hence his comments about Lucas in the last game.
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William Bruce Cameron famously;y quoted "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
It is said that Albert Einstein had the quote written on the backboard in his office and the quote has also been attributed to George Gallup, the creator of the Gallup polls and a very well known statistician who quoted it often.
You seem to fixate on certain numbers and leave out a lot of factors that do not fit your narrative. a good example is your opinion of Alexander when you completely ignored his weaknesses in defense and how often he got caught out of position and his man would just score or the times he failed to provide weak side help to prevent the ball handler to score…just to name a couple…and solely concentrated on numbers that made your case. Again, these are thing that are not easily measured but a very important part of the game, particularly with Coach Self’s system that emphasized defense.
Again, there is no denying that Diallo is an athletic freak with extremely long arms and a huge upside and Bragg appears to be one too; however, and as the announcers/analyst in both games he played indicated, he is greener than green when it comes to basketball IQ and at times he seems completely lost on the court. Embiid started the same way but was what I call a “savant” insofar as the game came to him so naturally; I cannot think of another player like him. Yes, Diallo has played in only two games but he has been practicing with team for a while now and I don’t believe he is the savant Embiid is/was.; at least I have not seen it.
Now, you take an inordinate amount of time to look through the equivalent of an atomic microscope the performances of Traylor and Lucas and come up with very negative assessments. if you do the same analysis for any of the other players and looking though the same biased lens, you would come up with similar conclusions for every and all players. I would do it but frankly…I don’t have the time or inclination to arrive at what would be a preconceived result anyway. Will Rogers famous;y said…there are lies, damn lies and statistics. We both know that statistics can be selectively manipulated to indicate whatever you want to convey; you do this very well.
You don’t respect Traylor as a player - We get it.
You don’t respect Lucas as a player - We get it.
You don’t respect Bill Self as a coach - We get it.
Everybody in this forum knows I dislike Zenger because his actions have personally affected me and many other Jayhawk fans and I have described in detail before the reasons; however, you don’t see me dissecting the contract(s) he signed on a game to game basis just to show how incompetent he is, do you? I simply state…I still hate Zenger…and everybody knows what I mean.
Maybe in the future, instead of writing a 15 bullet essay on the shortcomings of certain players and coach, you could simply write:
I still hate Traylor, Lucas and Self.
…and I can guarantee you that we will all get the message loud and clear and save a lot of bandwidth in the process.
@HighEliteMajor , I do respect your knowledge of the game and the effort you put into trying to get your point across but a lot of it comes out as more visceral than pragmatic…which is fine, because it is just your opinion and you are entitled to your opinion in the same way that those of us that do not share you opinion are entitled to ours. This by no means indicates that you are right and the rest of us wrong or the other way around…we simply see things differently, which is what makes our system so great. However, discussing the same thing over and over and over results in diminishing returns and will not change minds anyway and it gets to the point where it amounts to basically wasted time…wouldn’t you agree?
Sometimes we just need to skip the details and cut to the chase…
BTW, I still hate Zenger.
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@JayHawkFanToo I kind of thought I was in a discussion with @benshawk08 and that the PER is a quite relevant piece of the puzzle and his very relevant eye test comment. The Cliff example seems interesting, at least to my small brain. But you have been quite reserved in your prior replies, I figured this was coming at some point – and I know you are diametrically opposed to my position.
I respect you and your opinion. I’ll keep this all in mind.
At the very least, I’ll try to limit my posts to a 12 bullet essay.
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@HighEliteMajor @JayHawkFanToo
Strunk and White rule #13: Omit needless words!
Oops. That probably wasn’t necessary.
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@benshawks08 In my field, pithiness is next to godliness. The objective is to convey the greatest amount of information in the fewest number of words. Clearly, others here are in a different profession…;)
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No problem, it’s all good and we all learn something in the process. Look at this article by Ken Pomeroy about the plus/minus, which at one time was though/predicted to be the ultimate statistic and turned out to be of no use in college basketball.
I keep thinking of how much of the game is not quantifiable. For example, take the 51 second in the Harvard game where Perry scored on a 3 point platy to break the tie followed by a jumper that put KU in command for good. To me, these 51 seconds were the biggest difference in the game and yet you can’t really quantify in way that gives it the weight it deserves…or the breakaway dunk that breaks a tie and the opponent’s momentum and spirit? All these intangibles are what makes the game so unpredictable, frustrating and at the same time so darn exhilarating and rewarding…oh well.
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@JayHawkFanToo I don’t agree with the shorthand. I don’t come to this site for shorthand, I’d go to LJW and read comments if that was what I wanted.
I love @HighEliteMajor analysis and thoroughness even when it re-iterates an old argument as it adds weight to the argument. I learn something more each time and can watch the game with more knowledge.
That said, I can appreciate counter arguments to round the overall analysis. Too many take a response from HEM as personal attack and belittlement. That’s where we can all step back at times and take a deeper breath.
Or, find a way to bring solid reasoning and facts to rebut. What doesn’t sit well is appeals to authority alone, but everyone agrees we’ve got a hall of fame coach. The dialogue teaches Selfs ears and he addressed. I guess we’ll see what changes tonight if even briefly.
I won’t however, as I’ll be on a plane part of the time, but I will be logged back in and be on ESPN3 to see for myself at some point.
Rock Chalk.
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@wissoxfan83 What other site? There is another site? Who the heck is Keegans? In general, WTH you talkin’ bout?
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@Bwag Omit needless words is not a call for short hand or even shortened responses. It is a quote from a book called “Elements of Style” and can be a useful hint if writing a two sentence response, or a novel. Length has nothing to do with it! Just an English teacher reminded of his Junior AP English class. No judgement intended.
(Guess I could have just said “no malice”)
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@benshawks08 Strunk and White has been panned in some recent reviews. e.g., this article a few years ago from the Chronicle of Higher Education.
http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497
Not that it doesn’t have some good points, but not everything in it should be considered gospel.
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I don’t believe my intent was or my words meant to limit comments and I did not mention shorthand at all. I simply suggested that, for expediency sake, to “cut to the chase” as it were. You are welcome to post whatever you want and only the board moderator/owner has the discretion to limit comments, I certainly don’t.
You must not come to this forum much if you don’t know that some of the issues have been rehashed over and over and over and at this time, members have their own opinions and likely will not change…repetition notwithstanding. So post away and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. least of all …me.
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@benshawks08 “English is a stretch language; one size fits all. That does not mean anything goes; in most instances, anything does not go. But the language, as it changes, conforms itself to special groups and occasions.”
- William Safire, “On Language.” Another book worth checking out.
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@tundrahok Agree S an W is past its prime! #13 is the only one that stuck with me after high school. Don’t know whether it is due to the familiarity of the number or the rule itself. I still think at least that one is still good!
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@HighEliteMajor By all means, do not limit your analysis based on what a Bill Self cheerleader said. By his logic, he could just simply write, “Bill Self made the right decision. He has never been wrong, nor will he ever be. He gets paid a lot of money to coach basketball, ergo, he’s infallible.”
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I just want to apologize to you for firing on you even though you may have not have deserved it. Yet I’m tired of KU fans that question coach this year being label haters.
I don’t hate Coach and I don’t hate Landon, and I don’t hate Traylor. Yet I do love the Jayhawks. So yes I’m not happy with Coach.
So forgive me and take my comments for what they are worth.
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No need to apologize. What we say here in the context of a discussion is just opinion and we all have different ones. It would be pretty boring if we all the exact same opinion. I take your comment as those from valued member of our little forum; i might not necessarily agree with them but it does not make them wrong or right…just different.
