If Bill’s roster falls apart…
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@dylans solid take. Thanks for the financial perspective. I wonder how a stretch of 4 underwhelming years affects brand and valuation.
Maybe a better question. To @Kcmatt7 @Crimsonorblue22 too.
Total hypothetical here. Lets say Bill wants to coach for 15 more years with similar roster problems the whole time and tourney flame outs. Give me a number of years. How many? How many years of this does he get before he needs to be convinced it is time to hang it up?
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Mind you I don’t think that Bill is infallible. His love affair with guys like Juan, KJ, Garrett, Traylor and Lucas have definitely limited his teams at times. I think he has really struggled with 1-year guys historically. In an era of a ton more 1-year guys I’m not surprised Bill is having some issues.
But what is the standard? You can’t go to a Natty or FF every season. Do we really care THAT much about a 2nd round flameout with a team that didn’t’ gel vs. an EE run?
Is he not entitled to a disappointing season after performing what felt like the impossible with some THIN rosters during the streak. The Natty runner up team where Justin-freaking-Wesley was getting rotational minutes should earn you grace when 5-seed season happens.
Coach k was a 6 seed or worse 6 times at Duke.
At KU, Bill Self has never been worse than a 4 seed. I mean, seriously, you folks do not appreciate this level of consistency enough.
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@dylans solid take. Thanks for the financial perspective. I wonder how a stretch of 4 underwhelming years affects brand and valuation.
Maybe a better question. To @Kcmatt7 @Crimsonorblue22 too.
Total hypothetical here. Lets say Bill wants to coach for 15 more years with similar roster problems the whole time and tourney flame outs. Give me a number of years. How many? How many years of this does he get before he needs to be convinced it is time to hang it up?
When he misses a tourney and he’s more than 5 years removed from a Natty, I’ll draft the petition myself.
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@Kcmatt7 all true, but next year will be 4 years if he has a dysfunctional roster.
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@Kcmatt7 Barnes got fired for less
failed to make sweet 16 seven years in a row. but ok. Look at Texas now, right?Thats a number. Thanks.
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The only reason this team is underwhelming is the talent was over-rated by the media, and because there are only 2 “it” coaches right now. That’s creates false expectations of being the number 1 team in the land.
The fans (short for fanatics let’s remember) start to froth at the mouth thinking about winning a crapshoot of a tournament. It’s in the bag with that preseason number one ranking. How could it not be? Then the reality of the season plays out and the team has more of a sweet 16 ceiling. Fans get pissed that they rooted for one of the best 20 teams in the nation, but not the one that got hot during the tournament.
Ever see a snake eating its own tail?
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@Kcmatt7 exactly
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@Crimsonorblue22 i think there were warning signs with Morris that were ignored, and there were other more proven D1 transfers than Timberlake we passed on. Not recruiting another big on that roster made no sense too.
had he recruited someone who could spell mccullar he wouldnt have needed to run him 34.2
I dont really understand how these arent questionable decisions, and how the head coach isn’t culpable, at least from the outside looking in, as we admittedly are.
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@Kcmatt7 it’s like K-Stater’s calling for Bill Snyder’s head. ( I don’t know if they did or not…just an example). That dude single handedly resurrected Purple Football from an absolute death sentence and made them consistently respectable. IMO it’s in line with what Self has done with KU Basketball. Self is not MY problem with KU Basketball right now. It’s the F-ing portal. It’s the NIL. I know I’ve harped on it a lot, but it bugs the crap out of me. I want 4 year players who play for the love of the game and not for God only knows how much pay they get for doing a Ford commercial.
Self is not the (only) problem. They players have to play. Any guy that does THIS - should not have to answer to fans about his performance: He has two national championships, 20 regular season conference titles, nine conference tournament championships and the most wins of any coach in Kansas history.
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 Barnes got fired for less
failed to make sweet 16 seven years in a row. but ok. Look at Texas now, right?Thats a number. Thanks.
For less? Remind me how many National Championships he has? Remind me who has done better since he left. UT or Tennessee?
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@Kcmatt7 right. But my point is that people get tired of fizzling out in the tournament consistently.
We can revisit after year 5 I guess.
If Bill retains his roster next year and bolsters with a few good portal pieces there is a good chance we will not be having these conversations. Fingers crossed
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@nuleafjhawk said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 it’s like K-Stater’s calling for Bill Snyder’s head. ( I don’t know if they did or not…just an example). That dude single handedly resurrected Purple Football from an absolute death sentence and made them consistently respectable. IMO it’s in line with what Self has done with KU Basketball. Self is not MY problem with KU Basketball right now. It’s the F-ing portal. It’s the NIL. I know I’ve harped on it a lot, but it bugs the crap out of me. I want 4 year players who play for the love of the game and not for God only knows how much pay they get for doing a Ford commercial.
Self is not the (only) problem. They players have to play. Any guy that does THIS - should not have to answer to fans about his performance: He has two national championships, 20 regular season conference titles, nine conference tournament championships and the most wins of any coach in Kansas history.
They are so lucky Snyder came back to resurrect the program a 2nd time. He owed them nothing. They did run him off after a couple of missed bowl games, and they got Ron Prince for it. Should be a lesson to all.
Also - Syder had just won 11 games consecutively right before the two bad seasons. But he was washed after two bad seasons… Only to return at age 70 and salvage the program for that 2nd time. And then get ran off for a 2nd time after a 5-7 season 9 years later (having won 8 games the season before). Though I think he did assist in the coaching search and had a lot to do with them getting Kleiman who has been pretty solid.
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@Kcmatt7 said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
Though I think he did assist in the coaching search and had a lot to do with them getting Kleiman who has been pretty solid.
And theres the hook I am looking for, the bridge.
Peaceful transition of power.
I want Bill and Goff to figure out what that looks like before he is riding on fumes.
Goff has to keep Bill on task here.
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 right. But my point is that people get tired of fizzling out in the tournament consistently.
We can revisit after year 5 I guess.
If Bill retains his roster next year and bolsters with a few good portal pieces there is a good chance we will not be having these conversations. Fingers crossed
Fans do get impatient. Kentucky ran off Cal for that.
I think one thing nobody talks about is that UConn collecting infinity stones the way they have has put a lot of pressure on other programs. Fans want that. UNC fans want that. Duke fans want that. KU fans want that. I think it is part of what lead to Cal’s departure from UK. Flameouts and UConn winning back to back kind of broke the camel’s back there.
I get it. I’d like to make some moves on UK/Duke/UNC/UConn and claim our rightful spot as the best program in the country with the titles to prove it.
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Like him or loathe him Scheyer was running much of the show for years already before K stepped away
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
Though I think he did assist in the coaching search and had a lot to do with them getting Kleiman who has been pretty solid.
And theres the hook I am looking for, the bridge.
Peaceful transition of power.
I want Bill and Goff to figure out what that looks like before he is riding on fumes.
Goff has to keep Bill on task here.
Well it helped that Snyder was 79 years old at that time… I get what you’re saying. I personally don’t want Bill involved with his own replacement. It has been a disaster so far everywhere they’ve done that. Syracuse, Nova and UNC to name a few. Izzo was seemingly holding MSU hostage only to be having a fantastic season…
Of course I want a peaceful transition, but I think that could be 10 years from now. You can’t just force this kind of thing on a guy who doesn’t want it.
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@Kcmatt7 I feel like he’s hanging on because it’s expensive to put in new countertops and re-pave the driveway. Wants to save for a nice vacation with the wife. Needs to pay off the car. You know, he’s just a regular guy like the rest of us.
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@nuleafjhawk lolol
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Why this is a lovely thread!
Lots of anger seeping over between KState and the Chiefs this weekend.
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@rockchalkjayhawk I mean we have kept it on the rails and civil. Im proud of us tbh, rough rough week for Kansas sports for sure
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There is a lot of talk here focused on lineups, NIL, and transfers, but everyone is missing the one common factor in all of Self’s F4 teams. What we need to turn around the KU basketball skid is another Teahan.
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2000 was the last time we were an 8 seed. Beat Depaul, played Duke tough. Roy had gone the 3 years (gasp) between the 1997 upset and 2000 without making it to the 2nd week of the tourney and were really pretty low years for this program. But Roy hit some recruiting home runs and the next year we made it to the sweet 16 with the young trio of Nick, Kirk and Drew, 3 first name guys that most of us know well. Bill is recruiting at a high level and makes me think this is going to turn around soon.
Of course this year ain’t over. We don’t have a Danny Manning on this team but I’d say we have guys that are better than anyone else that played on that 88 team. That team lost 5 in a row right at this time of year and of course got hot and made history. We have talent to win a lot of games. Hoping it gels here.
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I don’t believe Self is going to be KU’s coach 5 years from now. I believe he’ll retire within the next 5 years because of how much he detests what college basketball is becoming. There’s a reason why he turned down the NBA when he had a chance, there’s a reason he’s never really been involved with USA Basketball (probably more of an Adidas vs. Nike think though), his dislike of NIL and the transfer portal.
With as much roster turnover as there’s been recently, it’s not going to be a culture shock to have to essentially bring in a new team. I really could see next season being Self’s last with the group he should have next year and then hanging it up.
I do hope that whenever that day comes, it’s something that’s announced either before the season ends or within a week or two of the season ending so KU isn’t the boat of being forced to promote from within because I don’t think any of the current assistants deserve the head coaching job.
Personally, the coach I would go grab is Will Wade. Everything he got in NCAA trouble from is legal now and he could easily be here for 20+ years.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I was just going to say I think next year will be Bills last. He has stated he didn’t want to follow in a trend of long time like K-- Boheim and such. He stated that he wasn’t finished but thought he was on the back nine, wanting to retire early enough to be able to enjoy time with his wife and the grandkids.
Everything I’ve heard and realize that having to recruit kids-- on the road recruiting so much is really grueling /hard being away so much. Coach now with this dam NIL & portal is just to much. ?Basically having to practically recruit huge roster turnover almost every year.
Coach is not a big NIL/Portal guy he said they are good but both of them put together at the same time is not Now he catching all this shade from the 250-0 career beer guzzling/hoagie sandwich Couch Coach’s just to much- -saying screw this , don’t blame him one bit - We won’t have any problem pulling one of these Couch Coachs that know so much more about the game and how it should be run- -we will be fine
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@SlimShaddy54 i’m more of a career 75% rec league win percentage, kombucha guzzling cava munching dad. I’m fancy. But yeah, Im ok with being lumped with the beer guzzling hoagie muncher couch coaches. Its fine, forget I said anything.
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@approxinfinity LMAO , well sir I think when it comes to our selection of our next Upper Crust Coach- - - YOU will have to be relegated to a Tier 2 candidate— - you are just on the edge of credibility lol
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Maybe all the inconsistent play we have seen in the last couple years is player related only. All his talk of what standard he wants from players after games like Saturday is good insight to the struggles. He doesnt sound surprised his team is still playing this way.
No way I want Bill fired but I’m at a loss of words for some of what we are seeing. I think we can all recognize that Bill is in fact in the last years of his career. It’s on the horizon.
I can’t imagine he hangs it up without his legacy having one more big time run. He’s been the ultimate competitor as a coach and that’s been the fuel to much of the success we’ve been so spoiled with. This year was supposed to be high expectations based on the roster churn and enough of a core returning to compete for all of the season accolades. We’ve had no major long term injury concerns that usually derail a season like this. We have plenty of depth at most positions. We have plenty of guys that have scored a lot of pts in their career and won a lot of games. A few of them even played on a National Championship winning team.
So what is the problem then?
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@BeddieKU23 I think there isn’t one single problem with this bunch. Most of the issues the blame falls on Bills shoulders IMO. To walk up to a press conference after you just got taken to the wood shed by Gonzaga and say you were thinking about next years team, building it and how it would be different. Basically in old school terms his mouth wrote a check his ass couldn’t cash. He hand picked these guys and they cohesively suck donkey ass. We all knew AJ was a problem with effort and staying engaged @wissox said it all year last year as a Wisconsin fan. We all knew Zeke couldn’t play defense to save his life. We all knew Hunter doesn’t play defense and KJ isn’t a guy you want starting and playing 30 plus minutes on a good basketball team. We all knew Juan isn’t aggressive enough and doesn’t have any leadership skills. It’s definitely on the players as well but they did get asked to come here. I think this team need a vocal leader as I’ve said many times the best teams I’ve played on and coach had very vocal guys that held each other highly accountable.
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@kjayhawks We don’t actually know what KU’s big board looked like in regards to the transfer portal. We also don’t know a complete list of who did or did not express interest in coming to KU through the portal.
We also don’t know what the scouting reports the assistants put together that were responsible for scouting potential transfer players because Bill isn’t doing that on his own.
In regards to AJ, KU struggled to manufacture points last season because they didn’t have anyone who could do that. What was AJ’s reputation on offense? Someone who could create his own shot. The logic was fine in pursuing AJ and we’ve seen Self and staff turn other players with similar reputations into serviceable players. We’ve also seen it backfire as well even before AJ. I’m also not ready to fully write AJ off yet because we were having these same discussions about Remy Martin this time of season 3 years ago before the light finally came on for him. That also doesn’t mean I expect the same thing to happen with the light coming on for AJ, just that it didn’t happen for Remy until March and there were similar discussions of people writing him off in February as well.
The scouting issues are also why I believe there’s needs to be a shake up with the assistant coaches because that’s where a lot of the deficiencies in regards to being prepared and who to target in recruiting comes from. Self is the big picture game plans, but the assistants are doing to poor job of preparing those plans.
We also know Hunter is the source of the chemistry issues on this team. There’s too much smoke there for it to not have some merit. We saw that with Arkansas last season with their rumored guy love triangle within the team and that turned a team picked 3rd in the SEC and a dark horse Final Four pick in the preseason to a losing record overall and a 12th place finish in conference play.
Getting Hunter out of the program I think will be good, and hopefully KU doesn’t give any more players 7 figure NIL deals to transfers because those don’t seem to work to well for many of those players.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 all valid points for sure and yes I agree whomever is doing our scouting/recruiting is absolutely terrible at their job. One thing that continues to drive me insane is with our depth, why don’t we push the ball more? Basketball 101 easiest way to score is to beat the others teams defense down the floor. Remember when we used to be deadly in the open floor and teams were scared of us running. Now Juan for some reason just lazily walks the ball up the floor 99.9% of the time. When we push he ain’t doing it.
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If it’s me, I’m hiring a front office type group with a GM, recruiting guys, and analysts to do all the portal scouting and most of the recruiting. It’s clearly paid huge dividends on the football side and I’m not sure a small handful of assistant coaches can handle coaching, scouting, the portal, and NIL. Go get some young, hungry guys who want to prove themselves. I’d look at the NBA first.
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Telling @approxinfinity he’s “really f…ing stupid” is without a doubt the worst thing I’ve seen written by a bucketeer ever. Approx saved us from being lost in cyber space when we left the LJW chat site. He found us and we came and barely skipped a beat. I don’t know any clue how he sets this up, maintains it, pays for it, and/or tolerates the inane comments from so many of us and keeps it going. I didn’t find his position on Self to come anywhere near to intolerably disagreeable, just an opinion that some agree with, others might not.
Thanks Sir for what you do. We appreciate it. This is a great community.
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@FarmerJayhawk not a bad idea we have to do something different obviously. As much as I’ve stuck up for Self and enjoyed his time here. This is a new age, we can’t go out there and do the same thing as the past 20 years and be successful. Like I said on another thread losing at home to average teams, getting blown out on the road and going home first weekend of The NCAAs. That’s not Kansas Basketball unless we keep down the same path. Stat people I’m curious how many home games we have lost the last 5 or 6 years think it’s now over half Selfs 20 home losses. God AFH used to be the most feared gym on planet now it’s just another court to shoot on smh sad sad reality.
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@wissox for sure it was a little harsh which I know I am at times especially with @Texas-Hawk-10 but he’s truly on of my favorite people to go back and forth with and would enjoy having a beer with most of posters on here.
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Great idea
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@kjayhawks said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Texas-Hawk-10 all valid points for sure and yes I agree whomever is doing our scouting/recruiting is absolutely terrible at their job. One thing that continues to drive me insane is with our depth, why don’t we push the ball more? Basketball 101 easiest way to score is to beat the others teams defense down the floor. Remember when we used to be deadly in the open floor and teams were scared of us running. Now Juan for some reason just lazily walks the ball up the floor 99.9% of the time. When we push he ain’t doing it.
Basketball 101 also says if you have the more talented team, you want to increase possessions to exploit that talent gap. This team doesn’t have that talent gap, so this is why I’ve advocated going back to Self’s bad ball of turning games in rock fights played in the 50’s and 60’s. The best KU has looked overall this season was when Self went with a defensive oriented line up and turned up the pressure on that end.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 at times both have worked for this team. I’m not sure which is the correct for going further in March at this point in time
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@Crimsonorblue22 Who wouldn’t want to coach at KU? But we have got to make the position available first, right? That’s the hardest part.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
If it’s me, I’m hiring a front office type group with a GM, recruiting guys, and analysts to do all the portal scouting and most of the recruiting. It’s clearly paid huge dividends on the football side and I’m not sure a small handful of assistant coaches can handle coaching, scouting, the portal, and NIL. Go get some young, hungry guys who want to prove themselves. I’d look at the NBA first.
That’s how I see it too, model it after the pros. That’s what college bball is now.
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I wonder if a good ol’ student protest would shake things up here—maybe with some catchy chants like, “No Trophy, No Tenure!” This feels like another wild what-if scenario. Honestly, there are probably a ton of colleges out there with a “win or walk” contract: if the head coach doesn’t haul in a national championship within eight years or at least crash two Final Fours, he’s getting the boot. No pressure, coach!
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Never let the inmates run the show. That’s what I’m gathering here. Lol
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@wissox appreciate the encouragement, but i want to be able to wear my normal dude hat and not be an admin and Matt brought the energy and the debate. I am no doubt an instigator, but we stayed on the rails and got to a good place. All good here.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 @kjayhawks imo starting Dajuan Mayo Rylan Bidunga and Hunter gives us our best chance. We need scoring and defense to start and we can then morph into a defensive lineup if we build a lead to protect with Shak at the 1 or 2, and KJ as the other big alongside Flory.
All other lineups are liabilities imo, unless luck is on our side. There is no offensive oriented equivalent that doesnt blow donkey butt.
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@kjayhawks said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Texas-Hawk-10 at times both have worked for this team. I’m not sure which is the correct for going further in March at this point in time
KU’s not going to have the more talented more for most of their match ups past the first round. I’d go with slow it down and muddy the games up to limit possessions.
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I’d be interested to know what our time of possession is on offense currently and where that ranks to past teams/national rank. I’m not sure limiting possessions on that end helps us with a whole bunch of guys who can’t shoot well. Your two starting bigs are making only 50% of their attempts. This has been a very limited offensive team outside a handful of games. But I’m sure there’s probably something to gain by limiting possessions once you accept you don’t have an offensive juggernaut team. Is that even something that can be changed this late?
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I realize we don’t have the make up on this team at the present to do this but I still think our best team is when we get out and run, run , run , after missed Ft’s- after made Baskets- - after missed shots.-- just RUN Roy use to have us running loved it.
I think we DO have some that could fit that type now-- like Flory - – Diggy - - --Rylan- - -Peterson next year , we need good fluid mobile five man - -sure not like Dickinson - -really good fluid smooth wings - -PG’s - -( umm hello Darryn ) let it fly . Recruit fluid , mobile , quick depth bench wise also - -just GO work other teams over with the pace-- just think a lot better way to go other then post some sloth down low and wait for him to miss chip shots off his 2 inch explosion and offense that is slow and methodical limited possessions are in the past , we got to go
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@dylans Did you see “Takin Care of Business”? (Old show with Jim Belushi)
The inmates DO run the show! lol
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@approxinfinity 3 years*
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Bill has never emphasized or pushed playing the run, run, run game
We have to be down 10-15 and then we push it (I’m meaning even good 2022 teams)
I 100% agree based on what this years team has shown we gotta try to win ugly but had we leveraged our talent early like against Duke it’s the opposite of go out score people
We play our best when maximizing possessions and it’s why we look good early on every year. Then bill says we didn’t play defense
Then we do whatever that looks like and the offense completely plummets
When he lets them play free and get out offensively we got a better chance than “winning ugly”
This years team sucks because of the big 3 and they can’t hardly score with anyone so you gotta win 61-59 which won’t work for 6 straight games but it is their only option based on the neutered roster
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@kuballin10 Nah, not just because of the big three, I’d say. A great coach will be able to model plays based on each player’s capability, instead of forcing them to play his way. That’s what we’re seeing night in and night out. Flory will flourish had he played in teams like Miami, or MSU. There’s something really wrong when you see transfers’ numbers go down across the board. The system is bad. Period.
