My crisis of faith in Bill
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@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
Grady Dick is one thing! Not only was he phenomenal at KU (don’t get me wrong, he shrank in big moments, and it was easy for good teams to take him out of the game–imagine if he had another year to develop!) he’s been great in the league! He’s averaging 16 points. Side note: you said a gosh awful Toronto team. Personally I don’t understand anyone leaving KU for the NBA. The whole league is garbage.
But Johnny Furphy is the one I don’t understand the most. Johnny Furphy showed promise. But he wasn’t that good at KU. He had a stretch of like 8 games where played well. That’s it. KU fans were shocked when he fell to the second round. Why? Would you take a chance on him in the NBA? He’s now averaging 8 mpg, and 2 ppg. Woof.
I feel like this would be a better convo over a beer instead of a message board. But alas…
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@MoonwalkMafia Cliff had moved into the starting line up before the NCAA ended his season.
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@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I’ve repressed the memory of his name and couldn’t care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.
The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what’s happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.
But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I’d be stoked but now I’m just thinking he’s another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the ‘trappings’ that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven’t been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.
Having met Jalen Wilson and seeing as he has had no other issues I take offense to his inclusion on the bad actors list. He made a childish mistake, atoned for it, and didn’t have another single issue - if I’m not mistaken. His attitude and demeanor improved drastically after that and he became a model student athlete on and off the court.
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@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I’ve repressed the memory of his name and couldn’t care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.
The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what’s happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.
But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I’d be stoked but now I’m just thinking he’s another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the ‘trappings’ that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven’t been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.
Most basketball players don’t dream of peaking in college, they dream of playing in the NBA. I’m telling you this from experience with my football career. My dream was the NFL, if I had gotten to play for KU, that would’ve been cool, but ultimately wasn’t my end goal as I would’ve chosen whatever school was going to provide me the best chance to reach my goal of the NFL.
Unfortunately for me, I destroyed my ankle and missed my senior season and all of my scholarship offers pulled. I did have a couple of low level FBS offers from Sun Belt schools and Air Force before my injury.
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Agreed, think Jalen owned it, did great things here and continues to show solid work ethic in the league. But I do believe at the time it happened we were tossing around “here we go again”s on the board.
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Regarding Cheick and Cliffs playing time, I thought there were reasons we kept them out of some games to avoid forfeiture of wins or some such. Not just because Self deemed someone else a superior player.
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@Jhawk69 We can do this all day. Jamari played 222 more minutes than Cliff. That’s quite a difference. Cliff obviously played less games, so that makes sense. And yet, Cliff still scored more than Jamari (73 FGM compared to 67) and outrebounded him (148 to 130), and they tied with the team lead for blocks.
This is the age old debate, though. Short vs. long-term gain. Cliff was the better player. It seemed obvious then. It seems overwhelmingly true now. So he was out of position at times? Cool. He had the higher upside in the long-term, but was probably the better strategic move in the short-term. I remember people debating this at the time. It was infuriating.
As far as Cheik, this debate is kinda pointless because Cheik never played very much (only about 7 mpg), he was also held out of the first 10 games or so of the season. But we knew his upside. And I’ll just never buy into the Landen Lucas stuff. He wasn’t good. He committed to KU after Andrew Tarcewski committed to Arizona, who we had banked the future on. If I remember right, Lucas was like a consolation from the bargain bin when that whole thing fell through.
But who cares about picking over the details from a decade ago. KJ is the perfect representation of this debate. KJ’s great at being in position and defending. But he’s undersized and easy to score over. Flory isn’t a 4 so they’re not playing the same position. But he scores more, rebounds better, gets blocks while KJ…does none of those things.
So I pose this question to everyone with about 2 hours till game time. What do we think is gonna happen today? Do we think we see an actual change today and this team finds its stride? Or do we think guys still play with nerves and struggle to fit together. I think a game in the fieldhouse could really lift this team up if things start off well. My guess is we start Dajuan, Shak, Mayo, Griffen, and HD.
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@dylans someone correct me if i’m wrong, but isn’t it the law in Kansas that if you’re underrage, and drink one beer, then drive it’s a DUI? I was never under the impression that he was hammered and got busted. I could be wrong though.
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Allen .729 (590-212) 24 conference championships 3 final fours 3 Nattys (1 NCAA, 2 Helms)
Owens - 19 years .657 (135-44) 6 conference championships 2 final fours 0 Nattys
Brown - 5 years .754 (135-44) 1 conference championship 2 final fours 1 Natty
Williams - 15 years .805 9 conference championships 4 final fours 0 Nattys
Self - 21 years .804 (588-143) 17 conference championships 4 final fours 2 Nattys
36 years of winning at over 80% we are lucky!
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@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Regarding Cheick and Cliffs playing time, I thought there were reasons we kept them out of some games to avoid forfeiture of wins or some such. Not just because Self deemed someone else a superior player.
Cliff got shut down just when it was starting to click. He was getting ready to be a monster. Damn family messed it up for him.
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Per game Traylor averaged 21 minutes and Cliff averaved 18. Cliff averaged 2 more ppg and 1 more rpg. He was also a significantly worse defender. At that time, Traylor was the better option and it was very obvious. Cliff had more long term potential but he was not going to turn into a great player overnight. He was going to have to stick around for at least another year to be a starting caliber player, so playing him more would not have helped.
Besides, Bill DID give Cliff the starting job anf more minutes to Cliff in hopes that he would develop, only for him to get suspended.
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@dylans said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Allen .729 (590-212) 24 conference championships 3 final fours 3 Nattys (1 NCAA, 2 Helms)
Owens - 19 years .657 (135-44) 6 conference championships 2 final fours 0 Nattys
Brown - 5 years .754 (135-44) 1 conference championship 2 final fours 1 Natty
Williams - 15 years .805 9 conference championships 4 final fours 0 Nattys
Self - 21 years .804 (588-143) 17 conference championships 4 final fours 2 Nattys
36 years of winning at over 80% we are lucky!
An almost impossibly good streak. The next hire is critical, but I’m not sure who the first realistic call should even be. Doesn’t seem like a lot of rising stars are out there.
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I think something everyone needs to understand is that
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If player A has more upside and talent than player B, it does not guarantee that player A is automatically a better basketball player in any given moment of time than player B.
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If player A (who is more talented than player B but not as good a basketball player at the current moment) is given a lot of minutes he is not guaranteed to suddenly become a better player than player B in a short period of time.
A couple examples of this are Frank Mason who played slightly fewer minutes than Naadir Tharpe as a freshman and Perry Ellis, who backed up Kevin Young as a freshman. They stuck around for a long time and eventually developed into players that were miles better than Tharpe and KY. But it took time, there is no evidence to believe this process could have been expedited by playing them a few more minutes per game as freshmen.
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@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Regarding Cheick and Cliffs playing time, I thought there were reasons we kept them out of some games to avoid forfeiture of wins or some such. Not just because Self deemed someone else a superior player.
Diallo wasn’t cleared by the NCAA to practice with KU until right before Maui that season which put his development too far behind to be made up that season for how inexperienced of a player he was. He also had a shitty handler that was prominently named in the NCAA’s investigation against KU.
Cliff’s season was ended by the allegations against his mom coming out in late February which means KU didn’t have him for the Big 12 or NCAA Tournament. Cliff started the last 6 games he played at KU and was developing into a very good post player after some early struggles and was likely coming back for his sophomore season before his mom ruined his career.
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@Jhawk69 I don’t care at this point. It was a decade ago, and up until the 2018-19 team, it was easily Self’s worst.
But I’m curious, what are your thoughts on what KU should do in KJ’s absence? Or where KU has been struggling this year regarding the lack of productivity at the 4?
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@BShark said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@dylans said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Allen .729 (590-212) 24 conference championships 3 final fours 3 Nattys (1 NCAA, 2 Helms)
Owens - 19 years .657 (135-44) 6 conference championships 2 final fours 0 Nattys
Brown - 5 years .754 (135-44) 1 conference championship 2 final fours 1 Natty
Williams - 15 years .805 9 conference championships 4 final fours 0 Nattys
Self - 21 years .804 (588-143) 17 conference championships 4 final fours 2 Nattys
36 years of winning at over 80% we are lucky!
An almost impossibly good streak. The next hire is critical, but I’m not sure who the first realistic call should even be. Doesn’t seem like a lot of rising stars are out there.
I’m more worried about Andy Reid’s replacement. I’d like him to coach forever, but let’s be real there aren’t many JoPas out there.
The irony… Coach K left hero worshipped and hadn’t won a chip since 2015. Self is 3 year removed, has been ranked in the top 10 since then and a lynch mob is forming.
Allen Fieldhouse may be the singular best home court in all of sports, but maybe the fans in Durham are better at realizing what they have. 
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@dylans My thought is Andy will ride it out with Mahomes but he is already 66 so who knows. That is a reset I am NOT looking forward to at all.
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@BShark I’m going to have a hard time watching football post Mahomes, but if they both retire at the same time…Yikes! It’ll be devastating.
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@MoonwalkMafia In KJs absense we should play Rylan and Keese at the 4. Maybe give Storr another chance too, see if we can get him going.
When KJ comes back he should get some playing time at both the 4 and 5, but we should continue to play small ball a lot.
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@Jhawk69 I’m starting to remember why I found this board frustrating in the first place. It’s hard to have this debate one well thought out screed at a time.
The examples you chose are fascinating. Naadir Tharpe and Kevin Young were pretty effective players on pretty talented teams during the years where Frank and Perry played behind them, though they both played a lot their freshman years. KJ Adams is not an effective player, nor is he on a team where we can afford for him to play 35 minutes, get 2 rebounds and 4 points.
Frank Mason is one of the greatest players in KU history. And I’d argue that Perry Ellis should probably be in the rafters. You could see how good these guys were their freshman years. Does anyone remember when Perry Ellis went nuclear against a phenomenal Iowa State team in the big 12 tournament as a freshman!?
But let’s not get too far away from what this debate is essentially about. Playing KJ Adams over players with more upside who make our offense more dynamic.
Bill Self said about KJ’s absence: “He’s played so well the last four games. He’s been without question our best and most consistent performer. I think that’s a blow…” This is delusional.
KJ can’t score. Other teams are daring him to shoot because it’s essentially a takeaway for them. They can sag off of him and our centers have to fend off 3 guys for a rebound. On the defensive end, he’s great at being in position, but he’s undersized guarding the 4 or 5 so he’s easy to score over. Griffen and Flory offer better alternatives to him.
I don’t know what else to say at this point. My whole argument with the Cliff, Cheik, Elijah comparisons were that this isn’t new. It’s who Self has always been. And if you’re still defending this, then I hope you like round of 32 losses.
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I wasn’t really talking about KJ. The point is that I believe Bill Self’s choices in the past are not evidence of a stubborn will to play less talented but more experienced players to the detriment of the team. He assesses who gives us the best chance to win and plays that player. He doesn’t bat 100 but he is right more than wrong and is right more than any of us on this board.
Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.
Now that, I would agree with!
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@dylans I hesitated to include him for reasons like you said but then others might point him out since he contributed positively here.
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I have decided to stop worrying about why we’re not a dominant team… it has been well laid out by many posters here what is wrong the program when seen thru the lens of super high expectations. We are what we are. Let’s just hope that they can jell and play as tough as possible. They are my team win or lose.
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@Bosthawk said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
They are my team win or lose.
I will state my dissatisfaction and complain. I will gnash my teeth. I won’t only state my dissatisfaction and only complain. I won’t only gnash my teeth, but also revel in the victories within the game not just on the scoreboard. I will enjoy the wins. I will take the good with the bad. I will enjoy the growth and wins. I will feel bad in the losses and down times. I won’t take the good times for granted. I am a Jayhawk in all times.
…but man the NIL.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 thanks for the refresher. All that up in your head? Steel trap, well done.
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@dylans well also, if KU had the rosters Duke had over the last decade I dont think we would have people irritated with minutes distribution, Self could throw darts blindfolded and roll out 5 studs, but I might be mistaken.
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Long time no see guys. I think we’ll be ok. Bill is generally flexible. He fell in love with an old love (big man ball) but I’m sure he’ll snap out of it. Just give him a little time, he’s earned it.
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People complain about Bill’s minutes distrubutions for 2 reasons
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They do not understand the difference between talent and impact on the game.
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They do not understand trade-offs.
I talked about talent vs impact above. I will explain tradeoffs here.
There are certain traits that fans want to see in their teams basketball players. If players have such traits, they think that those players are good. If not, they think they are bad. But, these few traits fans judge are not the only traits that impact a game. So a player lacking in a desired trait might be exceptional in other traits. If this player is given minutes instead of someone who has a more desired trait but does not have other traits, it is a trade-off. You trade one skillset for another. Because there are no perfect players, and because every player has different traits and abilities, all playing time decisions involve trade-offs. A coaches job is not to roll out a perfect team, but to analyze the trade-offs and get the best one possible. This will inevitably involve the sacrifice of certain traits being on the floor.
Many of you will claim that this is obvious, but it is clear that not all of you understand it well enough to incorporate it into your opinions of our players and of how our team is managed.
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@COHawk said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Many interesting and some valid points have been raised. It’s so easy to look for mistakes, issues, etc. in coaches and players, especially when we certainly have been spoiled throughout the years. Chemistry is such a huge part of any team; this team right now doesn’t seem to have tons of it. Also seem to be similar to the past couple years in that we’re not very mentally or physically tough. Hard to believe that no one has brought up how bad David McCormick was several years ago and how HCBS protected him. Too soft to be a big winner. Seem to recall Remy was not too highly thought of either for a good part of the year.
Other than the 2019 pieced together Lawson crew this is easily the weakest mental team of the Self era
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@Jhawk69 very valid but Self built this team to have a bench. Dude even said he was thinking about this team while we was getting spanked by Gonzaga. Not sure what planet that at least a fair portion of the blame isn’t on Self and his inability to build a team.
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@Jhawk69 all of that is pretty obvious today
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This team was preseason #1
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@AsadZ That’s normal for Bill. People value his consistency but don’t see the full picture so he gets plenty of hand picked rosters, preseason #1’s and we flame out early
After 30 years of watching it’s his scheme/style of play and definitely roster decisions with how he handles players differently and unfortunately it is elevating middling guys into starter roles that should be there and he holds back the guys with better talent because always in his mind “they aren’t ready”. He doesn’t comprehend letting them play through it and be more equipped in March versus October/November
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I’ve always had my issues with Self, but ultimately, his overall body of work speaks for itself. And I’m not a D1 coach and I don’t attend team practices. Still… I’ll always be a backseat Jayhawk driver. What bugs me:
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Why don’t we come ready to play? We don’t focus on inspiration. This has always been my biggest complaint.
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We don’t change up strategies for who we play. It’s our way or we lose. I do think we are finally adapting slightly. Why don’t we learn a real press? Why don’t we learn better fast break offense?
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We don’t develop players enough. Our guys usually maintain about the same level of basketball IQ during their stay. Skill levels don’t drastically change either. Strengthening modest, too.
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Our guys are soft. Our teams usually are.
I say all of this stuff then 2022 happened and we looked like the best teams in March and we proved it!
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@Jhawk69 @Jhawk69 The evidence and history of under achieving in March actually proves what those arguing with you are saying.
KJ’s doesn’t “overcome his offensive liabilities by doing stuff to make up for it” with what? Defensive rebounding - nope
What does he contribute exactly?
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@Jhawk69 No, I think people do understand that and it’s the difference in who plays, who has a leash and who has “trust” versus who doesn’t.
Anyone who’s played any sort of high level sports knows when your coach allows you to play through mistakes you have a free mind and play hard.
If you are on the wrong side of your coach and with any mistake or 2 you are back on the bench - you play the exact opposite
What I’d argue is if those guys were given the same confidence and leash their impact would have been better because of their abilities shown in brief minutes (while knowing a mistake = a yank). You see the potential/impact and that’s the coaches entire job is to pull it out of them so the team plays its best versus suppressing it. What’s even more maddening is he’s doing this with Veteran guys from other programs while his 4/5 year program guys constantly eff up and are allowed to play through it. This stuff is seen and causing serious dissension which is yet again more proof of his mishandlings. Cal following the same path right now as well - go figure.
Self always trades off the guys he trusts to be in the right spot even if that can’t make the play over letting the guy like Cliff or whomever screw up games in Oct/Nov/Dec and hopefully get it by Feb/March. His patience is very poor and his shortsightedness is why he doesn’t have more titles. I mean Flory/Kj is current proof yet again.
2022 was a completely anomaly and made up for 2010’s collapse against vcu. That took Remy saving us from a Juan meltdown (rd32, sw 16 and title game) while he was literally surrounded by 3 nba wings and the MOP big man.
Self can’t comprehend this which the proof is he never attempted to recruit over him or kj for that matter.
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@Jhawk69 Cliff wasn’t some significantly worse defender
Jamari was good for a chase down lebron block but he was poor in half court and zero threat offensively at the 4 spot (sound familiar)
The excuse of oh he will pick it up in his second year is trash. You have a long armed athletic big and if you can’t teach him to semi defend in 4-6 months you aren’t good at your job. It shouldn’t take that long to teach defense to a stud high school big who had lateral quickness.
Hey speaking of that 4 man not being a threat to score let’s add some more proof….
That year ended in….you guessed it a rd of 32 double digit loss 78-65 to wsu of all teams
Our team had Mason, Graham, Oubre, Selden and Ellis - didn’t get the talent together to score but rather “make guys play worse than us”.
Better to just focus on you playing your best consistently….
When you start to really dig in it gets ugly with all the talent we’ve had.
I heard Tony Bennett of the Midwest and it’s legitimately true as of today. Consistent, won some conference titles, flame out early a lot. Got 1 legit Title with the 3 year guys returning in 2008.
2022 guys returning and the portal miracle. Other portal years aren’t even coming close which is the frustration
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Watch Hunter manage his own game and decide how much energy he chooses to expend on each play. He only has a certain amount of gas in the tank and he decides when he uses it based on a likely outcome of how much impact his presence will lead to a successful end. He knows what is going on all the time and takes into consideration the score and game clock when he decides to act. It may be whether to make one of his suicide dribble drives or hand it off to Juan or Zeke at the top of the key. I think maybe he has inspired Flory to try the suicide dribble drive thing but Flory starts the drive from the defensive foul line instead of his own foul line like his mentor does. You can’t deny it cause you have seen it too! Flory is ballsy enough to do it in a game where Bill gets that oh shit look. I can see the guys back in the dorm say good one dude coach about passed out.
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The Chiefs won by sacking Houston and about knocking out their QB. I left the game thinking about that and a Taylor - Travis - Caitlin sandwich with chips and a Pepsi. I better go back to bed a snuggle up to my own warm baby.
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@kuballin10 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Jhawk69 Cliff wasn’t some significantly worse defender
Jamari was good for a chase down lebron block but he was poor in half court and zero threat offensively at the 4 spot (sound familiar)
The excuse of oh he will pick it up in his second year is trash. You have a long armed athletic big and if you can’t teach him to semi defend in 4-6 months you aren’t good at your job. It shouldn’t take that long to teach defense to a stud high school big who had lateral quickness.
Hey speaking of that 4 man not being a threat to score let’s add some more proof….
That year ended in….you guessed it a rd of 32 double digit loss 78-65 to wsu of all teams
Our team had Mason, Graham, Oubre, Selden and Ellis - didn’t get the talent together to score but rather “make guys play worse than us”.
Better to just focus on you playing your best consistently….
When you start to really dig in it gets ugly with all the talent we’ve had.
I heard Tony Bennett of the Midwest and it’s legitimately true as of today. Consistent, won some conference titles, flame out early a lot. Got 1 legit Title with the 3 year guys returning in 2008.
2022 guys returning and the portal miracle. Other portal years aren’t even coming close which is the frustration
Perry wasn’t a threat to score? Wow that’s a take. That team was also ravaged by injuries by the end. Wayne and Perry were hurt. Cliff had his family issues. The guy that Bill refused to play (BIFM) played 34 MPG that year. Cliff was an absolute foul magnet. He never played man defense in high school (he was the middle of the 2-3 back line) so every minute was a learning experience. As such, he messed up A LOT.
There’s so much revisionist history around Remy, Cliff, and Cheick it’s impossible to have a conversation. The underlying facts aren’t debatable yet people shoehorn their narratives anyway. Cheick’s advanced stats in league play weren’t even that good. And one thing around Landen. Doke passed him a handful of games before he got hurt. Can folks do basic research before popping off? Who would you have played at the 5 other than Landen against Oregon? Dwight? We steamrolled the field before running into Nova in 16.
The Tony Bennett comp is laughable. Bill hasn’t gone a season without a tournament win (barring crazy circumstances) in 20 years. Bennett hasn’t won a tournament game in 5 years.
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@FarmerJayhawk All correct points and none of it will be read or matter to who needs to comprehend it.
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@Zabudda the flory dribbling is funny!
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@Zabudda the flory dribbling is funny and I’d like to hear more about the Tay Tray Cait sandwich
I probably should leave that be and in the conference final who knows there may be a different top or bottom bun in play.
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I think Storr is understanding our system better which is good because I don’t. Griffen did not hoist up one shot. I keep hoping for the trey explosion to come to fruition but not yet. Come on guys you are just remaining anonymous for no reason all I ask is a clean open on balance try. If it’s not there then you may want to guard better because opposing teams are getting those looks. Bill can only yank you in turn and put you back in for the next yank. BTW my grand nephew has a good year with the Jets. 30 carries for 174 yards (5.8) 1 TD. 9 receptions 74 yards 1 TD. 7 solo tackles and 9 returns for 232 yards. Thanks for listening.
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@Zabudda ooooohhh! I’m erasing my thought!
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@Zabudda Rylan had a beautiful drive and dump pass to Hunter I think for a layup or dunk. Very unselfish!
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@kuballin10 Good morning. You made a lot of interesting points and I will try to respond succinctly.
Cliff was a liability on defense. Much worse than Jamari. There is a reason no NBA team wanted to draft him.
There is no reason to bicker about Cliff vs Jamari anyways because Self started Cliff in hopes of helping him click, but then Cliff got suspended and Self had to play Jamari.
Under-achieving in March has much more to do with choking than it does not having a talented enough lineup out there. If you can go 30-4 or whatever in the regular season you are good enough to beat anyone. But you could lose to anyone if you choke.
KJ has both strengths and weaknesses. I am well aware of both. His biggest strength is defense. The KSU game suggests that his defense helps us more than his lack of shooting hurts us.
You are right about Bill Self having longer leashes with some players than he does with others. Everyone makes mistakes so you can’t yank everyone after one. Players that Bill assesses as good are indeed allowed to play through mistakes more than players Bill believes are not as good. Bill gives all his scholarship players chances to earn his trust. He then assigns levels of trust according to how well he thinks they play.
This often results in younger players, who have not had the same chance to earn Bill’s trust, having shorter leashes than older players, even in cases where the younger player has more talent and potential than the older player (recall: more talent and potential does not guarantee superior basketball abilities in the present moment or the near future). But Bill does allow young but talented players to have a chance to earn his trust. If they come in, play hard, and do a few good things alongside a mistake, they probably won’t get yanked. But if they do nothing positive and then make a mistake, they will get yanked.
Should Bill give players who are not as good a leash that is equally as long as better players? I would argue no. The system of reward when things go well and punishment when things don’t has been a backbone of human development, and is the basis for rearing children and economic growth. But, reasonable minds can disagree. A case could be made that allowing certain players to play through several mistakes would help mentally.
Also, arguing that our 2022 title wasn’t legit comes across as a desperate attempt to discredit our program. To be more convincing, you have to acknowledge our success and argue that our short-comings are still enough to cancel it out.
Like I said, very succinct response lol. Rock Chalk.
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Cliff was a liability on defense. Much worse than Jamari. There is a reason no NBA team wanted to draft him.
Man…you can keep saying this, it doesn’t make it true. They fouled at about the same rater per minute, but Cliff was a much better defensive rebounder and Jamari turned the ball over twice as much as Cliff.
It’s hard to find defensive rating or defensive efficiency rating statistics from a pretty forgettable season 10 years ago, but I did come across an article from the Daily Kansan that sums up the situation pretty well. This was from a game at Stillwater in mid-February. Here are some excerpts:
Heading to the half against the Cowboys, the Kansas Jayhawks held a 41-30 lead, and it looked as if the team was well on its way to winning a sixth-consecutive game. Frank Mason, Brannen Greene and Cliff Alexander had flat-out dominated the first half, with a combined 27 points on 10-of-11 shooting from the field. Alexander in particular was having a strong game, as he posted eight points and four rebounds in 12 first half minutes.
However, Bill Self opted to put his first half starters back on the court to begin the second half. With that group on the floor, the Jayhawks allowed the Cowboys to go on a 8-1 run, before Self decided to reinsert Alexander and Greene.
Things settled down a bit…but for whatever reason, Self decided it was time to take Alexander out, despite the fact that the freshman big man hadn’t really done anything wrong in the two minutes on the court… Nonetheless, Self made the change, putting Landen Lucas into the game for Alexander. Lucas didn’t do much for the team overall, racking up just one offensive rebound in his seven minutes of playing time in the second half. Lucas did not record any other statistics during that stretch, but Self continued to stick with him.
When Alexander returned to the game about seven minutes later, he appeared to overcompensate for what he likely felt was his one mistake earlier, hedging too high on a pick and roll, as Oklahoma State capitalized for a two-point basket. Again, one mistake was enough for Self, who took Alexander out of the game after just two minutes. Without Alexander being allowed to settle down and get into a rhythm, he never had a chance to get going like he did in the first half. The Jayhawks faltered down the stretch, and that was that; Oklahoma State won by five.
Jamari Traylor, who played 27 minutes in the game (to Alexander’s 16), had another shaky outing, committing six turnovers, which added to a streak that has sort of gone under the radar. In six of his last seven games, Traylor has record more points than missed field goals and turnovers just one time, while Alexander, on the other hand, has done exactly the opposite. In the freshman’s last seven games, he’s had more points than misses and turnovers six times, and in the one game he didn’t, he recorded zero turnovers.
Going back to Saturday’s loss against Oklahoma State, Self called his team’s effort on the glass “soft,” which was somewhat comical, given the fact that Self handcuffed one of his best rebounders to the bench for most of the night. When Alexander played 12 minutes in the first half, the Jayhawks outrebounded the Cowboys 20-9, which included a 7-3 advantage on the offensive glass. Kansas outscored Oklahoma State by 11 in that period. However, in the second half, Alexander played just four minutes, and the Cowboys dominated the boards, outrebounding the Jayhawks 26-15 (9-6 on the offensive glass). The Cowboys outscored the Jayhawks by 16 points over that period, and Traylor really didn’t help the cause at all, recording just one rebound and three turnovers in ten minutes.
It’s the same story 10 years later. It’s incredible that Self allowed Jamari to make mistake after mistake only to pull Cliff at the smallest one. It’s the type of thing that leads to a player’s confidence just cratering. It happened with Cliff, it’s happened to innumerable young KU players–it’s happening again this year! It’s getting to the point where I wouldn’t blame a young player for choosing not to play at KU, even if it makes the most sense.
Even if we were to accept the premise that Jamari was better on defense, which I don’t, it was marginal at best. What little you would gain from him on defense do not offset his deficiencies elsewhere, which were numerous.
As this issue is not new, so too is this debate within the fanbase about Self as a coach not new. I heard someone say recently, if you’re still trying to justify these head-scratching decisions that Bill Self makes after all these years, you’re not a KU fan. You’re a Bill Self fan.
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@MoonwalkMafia That was the one good game Cliff played in all of conference play. That is an example of cherry picking.
Jamari could stay in position better than Cliff. He could switch onto guards (and Cliff could not). Again, NONE OF THIS IS TO SAY THAT JAMARI WAS A GREAT PLAYER.
But, let’s assume that you are right and that Cliff was better than Jamari. What would you have had Self do differently? Bribe the NCAA so that Cliff wouldn’t get suspended?
