ISU Game Thread
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@FarmerJayhawk what’s Kenpom weight remy’s effect on the team to win versus his actual output (stats in games played)
If you’re going to go all analyst on me that’s fine appreciate the conversation at least. Haven’t been on the board in years because guys can’t handle a conflicting viewpoint if you don’t bow at the alter of Self. When I tried to pontificate on how the games played or really talk ball others just call names because they haven’t played a day in their life and literally besides name calling or grammar analysis they can’t keep up.
I appreciated HEM because he’d call people out begging for other viewpoints to discuss instead of
“Trust self” “He can do no wrong” “You don’t see practice”
We come to this board to discuss if people can’t do that because they have nothing to add then what is the point here?
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@rockchalkwyo whether 2-0 or 155-153 just win…however since those aren’t legitimate options let’s look at what maximizes wins.
The better the team the more possessions helps them as they can score and other teams can’t keep up.
The opposite of this is Tony Bennett who I know the majority on this board want nothing to do with because he has his 1 lucky title and then some of the worst losses imaginable.
When you slow the game down and limit possessions you literally play into what an lesser team wants.
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@Crimsonorblue22 assumed the clown reference is me. Again just throwing jabs not talking ball. Just proves my point.
I’m throwing out reasons on why the team has struggled not just this year but last year as well (you all never miss a game I’m sure like myself). The way we play, defensively and offensively along with what’s been said, adjustments that haven’t been made and then results again aren’t acceptable.
For the “we are a top 10-15 team and right there to win big 12 and elite 8 ceiling” crowd then if that is the new goal yearly for blue bloods let me know we can all adjust our standards.
For self that shouldn’t be the goal but based on how he’s handled things these last two years the buck stops with him.
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@kuballin10 all you do is complain, never anything positive. I’d guess you were Remys dad. That seems to be your priority. All of us want him to do good and Self was talking how bad we need him in post game.
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It’s a little hard to tell where this team will end up. I think some here see a great ending, some are bearish on our future. This team has been an enigma most of the season. We’ve got brilliant Ochai, much improved Braun, role player Harris, improving Wilson, enigmatic Big Dave whom I think is to blame for the last two games, Mitch is who we know he is, disappointing Remy, really the season hinges on him, and newcomers who are still trying to break into the rotation. I really don’t know how this is going to end up.
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Idk what is to be upset with as far as recent performance.
4 years ago we made a FF. 3 years ago Doke got hurt which sucked. 2 years ago we were the favorites to win it all. Last year we sucked (nobody is winning with that group). This year Bill is pulling strings and working this team.
Dave only played 10 minutes tonight. KJ started. And JCL probably plays 20 minutes if he doesn’t catch an elbow. He played Bobby even though he’s practiced almost none.
The best part about this season so far is that it doesn’t feel like we’ve hit our stride. Seems clear to me this team has another gear they just haven’t hit yet. But it isn’t from Bill not trying
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@Crimsonorblue22 if that was the case with Self why didn’t Remy play more minutes and why was his hook so quick?
What I don’t get is why self trusts lesser talented players instead of riding the guys who can get him to a title.
Remy came here having been the man at asu I get gunning it like crazy. He didn’t do that his freshman year he wasn’t the guy but he was a stud as we witnessed at AFH.
Where did that player go? The guy who could beat his man and make other guys better?
Akinjo went 1-7 from deep tonight Baylor lost but drew trusted him and he’s been letting him shoot all year.
We did the same with graham and mason self trusted them. Why does self not trust remy? Because he had a couple loose shots in fall practice? He’s gonna carry you to a title and Bill treated him like a freshman he needed to “break”.
The issue is self. If he likes you then you hardly ever take a bad shot and no quick hook. If he doesn’t like you any shot that he deems quick or not within the offense is bad. Mason and graham, akinjo and whoever come down on breaks jack wide open 3’s. Majority of the time they go in we win and move on. Self in his mind to break remy of bad shots stripped him of his aggression in scoring what we desperately need right now.
Not remy’s Dad by any means but I’m connected with some asu alumn’s who are pretty in touch with the situation (Hurley’s a joke everyone knows that).
Had remy went to duke, uk, unc you think he’d shoot this little?
Can you fathom graham or mason not shooting at all for an entire half? Thst was remy against msu. Unfathomable.
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@wissox great analysis. I agree and think had Bill loosened the leash early on in the non-con these guys he’s now stuck playing because those who he thought would lead are so bad…we’d then be better off and more prepared.
Same thing this board, TOS and countless fans have said about him for years. It’s catching up to him his lack of adapting.
Transfer rules, one and done, it’s no surprise it hurts him because he wants to make you buy in to his system and you have to earn his trust otherwise it’s quick leash in games and zero learning experience.
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@Kcmatt7 appreciate the input.
Should have tried this earlier but that’s been said plenty.
The proof I’d have is guys are leaving our program and bring more successful elsewhere. They have longer leashes, play with confidence ect. You’ll get the rebuttal of they weren’t KU material well they are at other D1 schools excelling. The goal as a coach is to have guys play their absolute best and when they do that elsewhere and not here that’s something that needs to be examined.
Nobody likes the teachers pet imagine how that feels being a player on the team watching the coach have 1-2 when you aren’t the favored one yet more talented and a way higher ceiling. I’d transfer too.
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@kuballin10 said in ISU Game Thread:
@Kcmatt7 appreciate the input.
Should have tried this earlier but that’s been said plenty.
The proof I’d have is guys are leaving our program and bring more successful elsewhere. They have longer leashes, play with confidence ect. You’ll get the rebuttal of they weren’t KU material well they are at other D1 schools excelling. The goal as a coach is to have guys play their absolute best and when they do that elsewhere and not here that’s something that needs to be examined.
Nobody likes the teachers pet imagine how that feels being a player on the team watching the coach have 1-2 when you aren’t the favored one yet more talented and a way higher ceiling. I’d transfer too.
Remy came in with a me first attitude and got called on it. He bought in and started having fun winning then he got hurt. End of that story. When he’s healthy he will play big minutes. He and Dave are unfortunately what this season hinges on because they are the unknowns.
Say what you want about Harris but he makes plays in crunch time. Game winner tonight, diving steal the other day. He’s a gamer. Nothing flashy but all heart. I see why self loves him. Sad you don’t. Basketball is fun. Watching basketball is fun. Makes me sad for you that you can’t enjoy an exciting win over a top 15 team.
No one is going to accuse this team of peaking too early in the conference season. That’s for sure! But it will be interesting to see how they turn out in late February, March, and hopefully April.
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After 3 frustrating years with Dave and 25 years with Mitch, Self is adjusting and not playing the teacher’s pet at Self’s beloved 5 position. KJ got to start both halves and finish the last 30 seconds, as a freshman. That should show you who he currently trusts.
Remy is a different story. He needs to learn the system first / be 100% healthy, then be unleashed. And I would bet anyone that he will be unleashed.
I do get where you’re going with this, and appreciate the bigger picture perspective.
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Remy came in with a me first attitude and got called on it. He bought in and started having fun winning then he got hurt. End of that story.
- feel free to share where on earth you got that story from as it couldn’t be further from the truth. Remy came here because he loved KU (always wanted to play here we turned him down) and wanted to be coached by the best (Hurley sucks), to improve his overall game. The thought process that he must completely forget about scoring and only distribute and defend like he’s Harris is where this coaching staff went very wrong. Kids so good he can buy in and be above it all even when he can see it ain’t what he signed up for. He is unselfish as they come can play with multiple stars just because he didn’t at asu because they were awful… people have no clue about his attitude that is claimed. Self wanted Remy to do it his way…Self got what he wanted and now is realizing what he wanted and asked was dead wrong and why he didn’t utilize Remy like the last three stud lead guards (Dotson, graham and mason) no one will ever know but self.
Say what you want about Harris but he makes plays in crunch time. Game winner tonight, diving steal the other day. He’s a gamer. Nothing flashy but all heart. I see why self loves him. Sad you don’t. Basketball is fun. Watching basketball is fun. Makes me sad for you that you can’t enjoy an exciting win over a top 15 team.
- He made one clutch play yes, let’s not go overboard. If you think we can win it all with him you are going to be sadly mistaken. This is Kansas the expectations are supposed to be different.
No one is going to accuse this team of peaking too early in the conference season. That’s for sure! But it will be interesting to see how they turn out in late February, March, and hopefully April.
- I agree we definitely aren’t peaking too early.
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@kuballin10 he’s also dominated the ACC. I think defense wins you ballgames, it’s just harder to get red hot for 6 games when you hang your hat on D.
Do you ever wonder if guys like Self would have won more titles staying at a program like Illinois where he wasnt expected to land top 50 guys? Where he might have same level talent for a year sometimes 2 longer?
Do you think he wins a title earlier with Luther Head, Deron Williams and Dee Brown? Does he have less of a challenge recruiting undervalued talent to the Big 10?
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@rockchalkwyo great post.
Yes, Self has no choice because Dave’s been that bad. The issue is we need good Dave to even remotely have a chance for the big 12 and ncaa title. I thought after Dave’s showing in stilly we’d see him start any ideas why Self didn’t give him the go after the good performance?
It’d been the perfect atta boy based on him winning his job back. Dave when we aren’t required to post feed him is better than Mitch. When we play UK Oscar is going to eat Mitch and kj alive. Dave is our only hope.
If you want to hit on big transfers they system can’t be so complex they can’t pick it up easily. Remy’s played plenty of ball it shouldn’t take over half the season for him to go back to bring aggressive remy. That’s poor coaching.
Same issue though with recruiting and stud freshman staying. Self is extremely likeable but other coaches can sell against him easily with his track record and loyalty to his way and his system.
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Remy was late getting here too.
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@approxinfinity said in ISU Game Thread:
@kuballin10 he’s also dominated the ACC. I think defense wins you ballgames, it’s just harder to get red hot for 6 games when you hang your hat on D.
Defense wins ballgames but it’s harder to do for 6 games??? Somehow defense helps you win just not enough?..so you’re saying being a better offense team will mean you win more? That I can agree it’s the age old adage of basketball give me 5 gifted offensive players and I’ll teach them to be dogs and play D. If you give me 5 defense players they won’t get it done because I can’t create in them offensive skill set. I can draw up plays for easy buckets but if you can’t “go get yours” as the best for KU have done then we aren’t winning crap.
Do you ever wonder if guys like Self would have won more titles staying at a program like Illinois where you aren’t expected to land top 50 guys? Where you might have same level talent for a year sometimes 2 longer?
For Self 1000% agree he’s better off having guys stay 3-4 years so he can feel like he trusts them in his system and quits his short leash/quick hook deal. So yes, he’d be better off at a place like Illinois especially with the chitown connection.
I should add his 1 title was with upper classman. How often do stud freshman arrive only not to play how we expected them to come in or the minutes or a senior less athletic/potential gets minutes over them? That’s happened time and time again here so your logic is dead on.
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@Crimsonorblue22 agreed no doubt about that. For him to be coached to change his game this drastically was a mistake.
Self wants guys to play with a free mind and just go play but system takes precedent over freedom to play. Similar to what I’ve pointed out in the game thread. If och comes down goes 1 on 5 and shoots Self isn’t mad or yanking him. Go watch any early games and tell me what happened with Remy. Remy plays less minutes than Harris and they took the ball out of his hands. I guess going undefeated in open gyms means more to a HOF coach than actual D1 games that were played. Never knew summer league practice would carry more weight than a years of games and resume’ a guy like remy had built up.
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That has nothing to do with anything. Harris is not about Harris. He’s about moving the ball and setting up his teammates. The ball doesn’t stick w/him. He penetrates and dishes. He does the dirty work. He had to play a lot of mins today without remy to help. He does have a nice shot, look at his throws. He lacks confidence, I think we can all see that. That will get better. He needed another guard to help bring up the ball against the press. Hence more to’s than usual. Remy will get healthier and Bobby will get more practice reps.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in ISU Game Thread:
That has nothing to do with anything. Harris is not about Harris. He’s about moving the ball and setting up his teammates. The ball doesn’t stick w/him. He penetrates and dishes. He does the dirty work. He had to play a lot of mins today without remy to help. He does have a nice shot, look at his throws. He lacks confidence, I think we can all see that. That will get better. He needed another guard to help bring up the ball against the press. Hence more to’s than usual. Remy will get healthier and Bobby will get more practice reps.
Not sure Bobby is all the way healthy either.
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@benshawks08 agree. That injury may make him skiddish too.
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I heard in the post game Ochai say he learned to speak French during the pandemic.
Pleurage!
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@Crimsonorblue22 I agree. KU needed Harris and he scored the ball when KU needed it. I can’t understand why Braun and Ochai were so ineffective the last 8 minutes of the game. KU really missed Remy’s scoring last night; KU desperatley needed a third scorer last night and Harris was just enough to get the win.
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I’m happy we won. I thought we looked like last year w/o Remy. Glad to see KJ get some minutes. It’s nice to know we can play some defense when we have to.
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@kuballin10 who specifically is leaving and thriving?
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I think it was great to see the team react, execute to that late game situation with the game on the line. That really hasn’t been something the team has dealt with much so far. I think that win does a lot of good for guys mental state. They know they didn’t play great but got a hard fought win despite that and injuries etc.
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@Kcmatt7 said in ISU Game Thread:
@kuballin10 who specifically is leaving and thriving?
It’s not a list that exists. Guys that did okay statistically via volume (ie Andrew White) weren’t winning.
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Well, we won! I had a long winded post ready last night, but my internet crapped out before pushing send. So, this one will probably have fewer cuss words! I was surprised at how pesky Iowa State’s defense was. That made for an u-g-l-y first half. Extremely surprised to see KJ starting!!! He was a little bit lost at times, but I think with more PT he’ll be less lost and hopefully less stiff.
Semi shocked that Self is still trying to sort out who plays at this point in the season.
This is a weird season for Self. For some reason it really stands out how he’s trying to “herd” his players into whatever mold he sees fit. I’m not really getting it this year.
I think both teams were hurt and helped by poor officiating last night. KU for sure caught a lucky break on that non goal tending call. Game changer.
That Brockenwhatever dude has an amazing pull up midrange game. Did he miss in that range? His shooting form is perfect. Straight up, straight lines, release high.
Great second half for KU.
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@rockchalkwyo I was intrigued when KJ subbed in for Mitch at the end of such a tight game. Indeed, that shows KJ has earned Self’s trust. It doesn’t matter who starts the game (according to Self), but when the game is on the line, it sure matters who ends it.
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KJ started and barely played. Seemed like a message for both Mitch/Dave to get it together. Don’t think it worked but perhaps Self should stick with it
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The reason he’s still messing with the lineup is due to all the injuries and failures of the upperclass men. Wilson should be better, even if he can’t shoot he should be able to help out in the other phases. I watched the isu/tt game, it was as ugly as ours.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in ISU Game Thread:
The reason he’s still messing with the lineup is due to all the injuries and failures of the upperclass men. Wilson should be better, even if he can’t shoot he should be able to help out in the other phases. I watched the isu/tt game, it was as ugly as ours.
Dave should be better too. I’m sure Bill would love to be playing him more if he could.
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@BShark said in ISU Game Thread:
@Crimsonorblue22 said in ISU Game Thread:
The reason he’s still messing with the lineup is due to all the injuries and failures of the upperclass men. Wilson should be better, even if he can’t shoot he should be able to help out in the other phases. I watched the isu/tt game, it was as ugly as ours.
Dave should be better too. I’m sure Bill would love to be playing him more if he could.
Getting to a point you need to just give Dave a ton of minutes again and say “we need you” or to sit his ass on the bench for good and let KJ, Mitch and Jalen man the 5.
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@BeddieKU23 said in ISU Game Thread:
KJ started and barely played. Seemed like a message for both Mitch/Dave to get it together. Don’t think it worked but perhaps Self should stick with it
I’ll stick with my refrain: MORE KJ!!! Bouncy and energetic are both good things for this lineup.
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@Kcmatt7 the million dollar question! I’d keep throwing him in there. Dang he just had a dble dble 2 games ago. It’s in him. I’d get him a therapist.
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@Crimsonorblue22 it pains me, but personally I think we need him. So tend to agree with you.
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Sooo decided to check out Iowa St site, oh they all up in arms over what they say blatent , clearly missed goal tending call against McCormack late late in the game with like either 1:48 seconds or 1 : 28 seconds to go, and from the video footage the replay that shows - -they very well might be right. We were up 58-54 at the time - - Guy was laying it up for easy two looks very much like the ball hit the backboard and McCormack slapped it off after it hit the back board to keep it from going in - - pretty clear - - I dunno likes it might of been
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@kuballin10 said in ISU Game Thread:
@FarmerJayhawk what’s Kenpom weight remy’s effect on the team to win versus his actual output (stats in games played)
If you’re going to go all analyst on me that’s fine appreciate the conversation at least. Haven’t been on the board in years because guys can’t handle a conflicting viewpoint if you don’t bow at the alter of Self. When I tried to pontificate on how the games played or really talk ball others just call names because they haven’t played a day in their life and literally besides name calling or grammar analysis they can’t keep up.
I appreciated HEM because he’d call people out begging for other viewpoints to discuss instead of
“Trust self” “He can do no wrong” “You don’t see practice”
We come to this board to discuss if people can’t do that because they have nothing to add then what is the point here?
Ken doesn’t explicitly weight for individual players as far as I know. The fine details of his model are proprietary, but I could probably get close to replicating it based on the details he’s published. It’s more like how many points do you score and how many do you give up, then adjusting that by opponent strength to estimate probabilities of winning using the methods from Lawrence legend (and KU fan!) Bill James back when. So if you score a shatload of points against a high efficiency defense, that’s really good, irrespective of who actually played. For example, if a starting lineup of Harris, Yesufu, Wilson, Mitch, and Dave (and all played 35 minutes) hung 100 on LSU (the #1 ranked defense) that would be the same as if (pick your 5 and minutes) also scored 100 against LSU.
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Remy is not an efficient offensive player and never has been. That was always the concern with him and Carr. You don’t know how they will translate. Carr has had a similarly rough go of it, being hot and cold.
I like sitting him until he is healthy because he was a net negative against Tech with the scuffed knee. He couldn’t even stay on the court without fouling. Self has his faults as does any coach but I wouldn’t say he has mis-handled Remy. Just this year there is a far worse case, how much he plays Lightfoot.
Yes he has a system but it doesn’t hold back talent. Dotson couldn’t shoot and averaged 18 a game as a Sophomore. Remy’s problem is that he struggles to get by his man and has a slow/flat release. His last two seasons at ASU he averaged 6 makes a game on 15 and 14 shots a game. That wasn’t going to happen here with Ochai back.
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@Kcmatt7 white, grimes, Tristan and biggest one Gethro.
Gethro with Drew would thrive he’d be given opportunity, miss defensive assignments but learn and do that early in the year in games we win either way. Game experience is the best Self can’t wrap his brain around this.
Gethro is 6’10 230 and long and athletic. Rim run, set screens, dunks, dump offs and put backs. You want to get to the league well this is what you do here…look at Thamba at Baylor identical.
Gethro at UNM averaged 9.8 ppg and 5.1 boards on 19.8 mpg.
I get we say “he couldn’t get minutes here” and yet look what we are running out there.
Here’s the reality. Self plays favorites based on who he trusts. How he comes to the trust conclusions no one but self knows. Practice, summer league whatever it is…it isn’t games for this trust.
Quick leash for those he doesn’t and stunted growth. Long leash for those he trusts and can do no wrong even if turnovers or bad shots are taken.
Apply it to remy, grimes, gethro whoever.
He didn’t make Grimes better…Sampson did that.
I can add Cheick too. He couldn’t “grasp” bills system or whatever your insiders claim close to the program. He’s in the wrong spot whatever yet he isn’t played through it against cream puffs he’s relegated to the bench.
Everyone who’s followed KU knows Self prioritizes system over better athletes and potential so that entails the system is literally stopping better players with higher ceilings to improve and REACH that ceiling in season.
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@kuballin10 said in ISU Game Thread:
@Kcmatt7 white, grimes, Tristan and biggest one Gethro.
Gethro with Drew would thrive he’d be given opportunity, miss defensive assignments but learn and do that early in the year in games we win either way. Game experience is the best Self can’t wrap his brain around this.
Gethro is 6’10 230 and long and athletic. Rim run, set screens, dunks, dump offs and put backs. You want to get to the league well this is what you do here…look at Thamba at Baylor identical.
Gethro at UNM averaged 9.8 ppg and 5.1 boards on 19.8 mpg.
I get we say “he couldn’t get minutes here” and yet look what we are running out there.
Here’s the reality. Self plays favorites based on who he trusts. How he comes to the trust conclusions no one but self knows. Practice, summer league whatever it is…it isn’t games for this trust.
Quick leash for those he doesn’t and stunted growth. Long leash for those he trusts and can do no wrong even if turnovers or bad shots are taken.
Apply it to remy, grimes, gethro whoever.
He didn’t make Grimes better…Sampson did that.
I can add Cheick too. He couldn’t “grasp” bills system or whatever your insiders claim close to the program. He’s in the wrong spot whatever yet he isn’t played through it against cream puffs he’s relegated to the bench.
Everyone who’s followed KU knows Self prioritizes system over better athletes and potential so that entails the system is literally stopping better players with higher ceilings to improve and REACH that ceiling in season.
If these are your ideas of guys who left and thrived we are living in two different realities.
Grimes first year at Houston was wildly inefficient. Basically his results here, just with more volume.
White got beat out by BG. We all watched it. If BG wasn’t a 50% ringer from deep White would have played here.
Enaruna is getting 17 mpg and scoring 6 a night for ISU.
Gethro put up those numbers while shooting under 50% from the field, and before his accident had just left that program too. Against the only P5 team they faced, he put up a 1/4 shooting night with 5 points and 5 boards. Quite the smoking gun you have there that Bill Self can’t develop players.
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@Crimsonorblue22 send him to Dr. Phil, we’ll make a game thread.
“Welcome to a special live edition of my show! Today’s guest is David McCormack, a center for the Kansas Jayhawks men’s basketball team. David, you were once affectionately called Big Dave but now some are calling you Little D instead. What is going on with you?”
“Dr. Phil, I don’t know, sir. That’s why I’m here.”
“Well, we’re gonna get to the bottom of it, don’t you worry. We’ll be right back, after this commercial break.”
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That was a good question by Dr. Phil…
