Bill Self "growth stunter"
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If we talk about kids who started off with a bang and don’t account for sitting BMac was pretty special
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And Xavier and oubre I think were on lesser teams to JJ but were close
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@approxinfinity said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
If we talk about kids who started off with a bang and don’t account for sitting BMac was pretty special
I firmly believe we win it all in 12 if Ben could’ve played
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@approxinfinity said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
And Xavier and oubre I think were on lesser teams to JJ but were close
Xavier was on the team that lost to Northern Iowa in the tournament and was a team that should’ve won the title as well as they were #1 most of the season and never ranked lower than 3rd at any point. For my money, Xavier Henry is by far the most underrated OAD to come through KU.
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@approxinfinity Bill messed with Oubre too much Imo. I thought he should have started day 1 and just let him figure out stuff on the court. But that’s never been Bill’s style (except with Grimes which is still weird tbh).
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@FarmerJayhawk Yea I’d bet if you replaced 17 Teahan minutes with BMac and we have a different ball game.
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BMac had an absurd year. Technically a FR but gotta think the off year helped.
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@Kcmatt7 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@approxinfinity Bill messed with Oubre too much Imo. I thought he should have started day 1 and just let him figure out stuff on the court. But that’s never been Bill’s style (except with Grimes which is still weird tbh).
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@Kcmatt7 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
It took Malik Newman like 25 games before he finally “got it” so I’m personally not panicked. Outside of Josh Jackson I can’t remember a single guy who ever came in and just was the perfect Bill Self player in both mentality and talent.
I get what you’re saying, but with Remy it is different. When the guy shoots, he more often than not scores. We don’t want nor need for him to be the volume shooter/scorer that he was at ASU, but do need for him to lead this team and look for his shot more.
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@Kcmatt7 oubre was a bit lazy, I love the guy. The WSU game
, no hustle!
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@wissox funny how others saw what he was and how he can impact this team yet Self decided to take it upon himself to completely change how remy plays taking shots via the media and complaining constantly when he’d have comments on good plays.
Bill doesn’t get our best players to play at their best he picks and chooses who he likes who are oddly never the best guys (traylor, Mostar, ect).
Remy came to Allen and torched us yet now he never looks to get downhill like Frank or graham would (prior to his knee even)…that says enough Self will look back at this team and still not seeing his blindness and lack of maximizing the talent he had
Oh and Baylor torched us that 2020 year in Allen we went back there and won a hard fought game. 2020 wasn’t guaranteed and Baylor just as much could say they could have won it and be back to back
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Do you ever think that’s because Remy can’t beat guys off the dribble that well? Not a strength of his.
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@kuballin10 Agreed about Baylor, but we seemingly had it turned up a notch. They would have been our biggest threat to winning it all.
I really don’t understand your comment about Remy. Why would Bill do that to one of our players?
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@wissox gonna have to ask Bill your guess is as good as mine but everyone knew our O was a mirage with easy schedule.
Sure would be nice if we had ball dominate scoring and distributing Remy when we can’t buy a bucket
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Well Joe and Zach played today, how’d they look?
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Bill wants Remy to score, thinking otherwise is just dumb.
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@BShark scared to make a mistake or else they get the yank. You seen Tristan play defense and rim run at all this year? Different player when his coach instills confidence in him not the short leash one mistake against technical school in November and you’re pulled.
Joe scored 32 on a team Harris and our guards couldn’t get a shot off in the paint. Shows all the potential and now he looks so uncomfortable and not confident out there.
Who do you think did that?
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@BShark really? What about anything self has said this season early on and how remy’s played constantly passing left and right hardly looking for shots says Bill has encouraged it???
Bill has flat out said he takes bad shots at bad times and is all frustrated. Where you been all season?
Also - Self showing his ignorance fronting Harris with “he’s undefeated in summer ball that’s unheard of” literally had me rolling. Yeah summer ball translates to when the lights come on.
Zach we are told dominates in a practice but never gets any run so the whole show us in practice to get minutes is Bs for mr BS
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You are putting too much stock in one 9 game hot stretch against mostly bad competition by Yesufu.
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The far bigger issue for this team is defense, the piece are not there to make it a great defense either. Part of this is recruiting which obviously struggled in 19 and 20.
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@kuballin10 He wants Remy to score within the system. Dotson, Frank, Graham etc all scored within this system just fine.
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@BShark said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
The far bigger issue for this team is defense, the piece are not there to make it a great defense either. Part of this is recruiting which obviously struggled in 19 and 20.
Agree. Not going to be a great defensive team. Need to score.
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@BShark what did he do against the best when the lights were the brightest? Apply your same logic and mine to our guys last year.
You probably played sports. A great coach is tough but instills confidence while wanting you to improve.
Billy never spoke well about Remy from day 1. Everyone’s talked about them “gelling” or each “giving a little”.
That’s all Bill’s fault. He should say we want remy’s D to catch up with his O. He’s so quick he should get 2-3 steals a game and control the game on both ends. We already know he can create just honing in the timing while staying aggressive.
Instead he pumps Harris’ summer gym record like it matters or anyone gives a crap but clearly Billy does…
Meanwhile he trashed remy even when remy saved us one game it was negativity when asked
That’s just being an @$$ not a great coach I’d expect
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@BShark he does? Sure does talk like it because anything remy does on O is questioned.
Bills system is the problem so glad you brought it up. Reason he has minimal involvement in team USA stuff they know how he is and no nba talk in years. The warriors and modem ball has changed just like nfl has and even saban has accepted in college.
Remy will never know the system like 4 year guys and self’s system he’s so rigid in instead of letting guys get good shots within it with a bigger leash.
Harris can’t shoot a bad shot in selfs mind and Remy can’t take a good.
Dave can’t take a bad shot cause it’s in self’s system. Self was mad Dave wasn’t making shots but not Dave chucking up bricks.
The game now is open the floor and spacing. The inside opens it up on the outside is proven true every night the game is played.
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@BShark I agree with this as well. ISU and Tristan plays better (more aggressive) D and we look slow and unathletic on D because we are.
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Tristan has had a couple good games for ISU but otherwise meh, looks like the same Tristan to me.
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@BShark you’ve seen 10 minutes of isu Baylor I’d guess. I watched them in nyc he was night and day different. The aggression, look on his face, all over the floor with his wide wingspan. For that defense we agree on would be nice to have.
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I’m referring to the several games where he had 6 or less points.
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what the hell was that - -no fricken call. Harris got hit in the back
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Good GOD are you serious ?
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@BShark box score watching checking points my point is he’s playing great D, all over the court and getting dunks and put backs. The O isn’t ran through him and he’s excelling playing aggressive while here he made 1 mistake and was yanked.
Only tcu last year he played well and go figure he had a huge leash with other guys out…played loose
It’s all on coach he berates then but doesn’t build them up. His shtick is getting old.
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@kuballin10 I appreciate your take and its part of a natural tension that keeps it real.
The other side being necessary as well. He’s one of the winningest coaches of the last decade. That’s a pretty good schtick.
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@approxinfinity win percentage is nice but only one thing matters…titles
He no doubt wins regular season stuff but same titles as Scott Drew and about to be passed in the next 2-3 years I’d say. Wright, Roy, K…ect. It’s the reason Cal isn’t that great X’s and O’s But he gives his kids long leashes. Lose some in the regular season but be better prepared for the tourney which is more important.One is improving the other is going backwards (Drew vs self).
Pride is a killer.
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I seen this on ESPN traile, now it was eith the 3rd - or the 5th straight loss for KU against a top 25 ranked team longest in Self’s tenure - -not good
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When you literally tell teams you are throwing it inside to start the game the first 3-4 possessions and you dont have Doke…you deserve to lose.
Self said when they had Dok they’d walk into every gym knowing they could beat anyone. We don’t have him now but still trying to get easy buckets the problem with the self logic is the buckets due to the bucketgetter aren’t easy because the player isn’t that good (yes, I stole a word from this site bucketeers or bucketgetter)
Players see our style and see the favoritism for worse players but they are older or “run the system”. Self is at fault because he is arrogant enough to think his system is what wins when in realty it has been and always will be the players.
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@kuballin10 maybe if you’re lucky he’ll be banned.
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Nothing like having a hall of fame coach but knowing some new blood with a new system would help jolt us back to life.
Unc, uk and potentially duke may be down these next 4-5 years. We need to rack up another title at least. If self goes another 3-4 years without one and if we do get to the final four we get blown out throwing it inside while the other team lights us up from deep and plays aggressive penetrating and kicking out for “inside out offense” then yeah self reflection would be nice.
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@kuballin10 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@approxinfinity win percentage is nice but only one thing matters…titles
He no doubt wins regular season stuff but same titles as Scott Drew and about to be passed in the next 2-3 years I’d say. Wright, Roy, K…ect. It’s the reason Cal isn’t that great X’s and O’s But he gives his kids long leashes. Lose some in the regular season but be better prepared for the tourney which is more important.One is improving the other is going backwards (Drew vs self).
Pride is a killer.
I am not totally discounting what you say. I thought that Tristan should have had more playing time, ditto now Adams and Clemence. But am not on board with Self being replaced. Am on board with him being not so loyal to certain players while they are not producing, and making lineup changes when and if necessary.
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@Marco said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@kuballin10 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@approxinfinity win percentage is nice but only one thing matters…titles
He no doubt wins regular season stuff but same titles as Scott Drew and about to be passed in the next 2-3 years I’d say. Wright, Roy, K…ect. It’s the reason Cal isn’t that great X’s and O’s But he gives his kids long leashes. Lose some in the regular season but be better prepared for the tourney which is more important.One is improving the other is going backwards (Drew vs self).
Pride is a killer.
I am not totally discounting what you say. I thought that Tristan should have had more playing time, ditto now Adams and Clemence. But am not on board with Self being replaced. Am on board with him being not so loyal to certain players while they are not producing, and making lineup changes when and if necessary.
can’t agree with Adams & Clemence - -Adams is way to offensive challenged at this point to play extended minutes in Big 1 play & Clemence get tossed aside like a rag doll at this point and also is ANOTHER defensive liability , just not ready
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I think your concept of the only thing that matters in this game is a NC is shortsighted and a negative view of the game. That is a great angle to take when you are a cynic and just want to propel your concepts ahead of a HOFr coach. Only one team wins it all every year and your approach basically says everyone else in college basketball sucks. It shows a complete inability to appreciate the game beyond this one single focus. You must have hated all KU basketball since 2008.
Your approach in here is nearing troll status.
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@drgnslayr Thanks for the response.
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not trolling honest convo about the state of the program in regards to the ultimate goal each year as coaches/players everyone would say
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What do you think of Boeheim? Self is version 2.0 great win percentage but only 1 title to his name. People talk about how difficult it is yet other coaches have 2 that people would say no way are better than Self and point at win percentage.
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You’re right besides 2008 it’s been fun but never reaching the top sucks. That’s the ultimate goal Self would say and everyone else. I weight that more. Going 30-6 and beating up and 20 bad teams doesn’t impress me. Beating up on a bad big 12 bedsides 2-3 teams doesn’t impress me. Self hasn’t played his best players every year which is frustrating.
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How many big 12 titles would you trade for 1-2 more ncaa titles? I’d trade 10 away. The streak is nice but if we were in the acc we wouldn’t have had it. It’s like Gonzaga is doing currently and not getting much respect. All of the sudden other big 12 teams do better in the ncaa and we might go a year or there now without winning the big 12 which doesn’t bother me if we excel in March.
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Self isn’t adapting to the modern game and his defensive philosophy is brutal. The system he prioritizes over players versus the other way around. He for years plays lesser talented guys who know the system thus limiting the teams ceiling but also limiting the teams floor. We win a lot but not the big 12 and definitely not a title because of it.
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This system is also effecting recruiting. Ask other guys in here or on TOS it’s well known in AAU circles how Self is. If I am Scott Drew I’m taking Akinjo at AU and showing how he’s allowed freedom at Baylor versus All American Remy and how he performed here. Self didn’t adapt his system to Remy and that was obvious as the first game Remy didn’t attempt the shot in a half. Same for additional games he isn’t looking to score and even get downhill it’s “run the offense don’t take a stupid shot Remy.”
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This is not trolling but other coaches with better philosophies are getting big boy jobs. These coaches will win some Titles sooner as the game is changing. As Saban has learned he used to win 17-14 but now it’s 44-41. Have to adapt. With the best athletes we want MORE possessions not less. Win 81-78 not 52-49 (see Virginia if you want proof of that. They have 1 lucky title as many could say about us and then have some awful losses - worst in tourney and multiple awful ones every year due to their style ). Utilize your athletes and adjust the system not the other way around.
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Stealing from poster on TOS regarding Self’s philosophy on O that’s poor and how awful we are on D with outdated philosophies. Self prioritized post feeders like Brady and praised him as the best player in the game often (similar to traylor or harris). Self builds up lower guys instead of building up our best players. It’s like Draymond Green having 8 boards 6 assists and Kerr saying he was the best player in the game. Unless he has a triple dub that is never said. He says Steph went off and did Steph things to carry us.
Instead of saying Harris was awesome with his 6 points, 2 steals and 3 assists ignoring his flops maybe encourage your horses (Och and Braun) and have a proper view of why you are winning and push to excel those players further that’s who will carry you.
“ NBA teams run way more pnr and pnp than post ups. We run way more post ups. So we either run outdated offense through our bigs or we don’t have talented enough bigs to run more modern offense with our bigs. It’s probably a little bit of both, but either way, it’s an issue on offense. Self wants to run post up offense through his bigs, even though they’re not even that great at it, and then compounds the issue by insisting on playing Harris all the time because he’s the best post feeder, despite the fact that he lacks offensive skill outside of that. It’s actually incredible we’ve been as good offensively as we have, but as I forecasted, it’s not sustainable because Agbaji and Braun couldn’t maintain their level of play. This isn’t even the fundamental problem with our team, it’s just the one thing that everyone chose to take out of my post. The post offense is irrelevant because our defense is so bad. I also commented on that original post that Baylor is a much better defensive team than us. That’s the major issue and what will hold us back.”
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There is no logical merit in talking about trading conference titles for NCAA titles. Not only can we not do it, but I don’t think there is a logical strategy where we intentionally not care about how we play in conference and have that help us win NCAA titles.
I’ve aired my criticism on Self and staff for years. Sometimes that has involved strategy questions… like questioning hi/lo at any cost.
My biggest criticism remains… Self’s ability to fire up his troops. He is such a mellow man (except sometimes yelling in the huddle). For example… in that TT game, where was the urgency? I only saw it for a minute after Brawn stole the ball at the end and slammed it. He briefly turned up his game. I see a big difference in our teams over teams like Jay Wright’s. Everything we do works so much better when guys play with urgency. I have always challenged this and probably always will.
We have a great group of guys, and I think our coaches want to win. But I don’t think they know how to turn up our guys. We currently aren’t playing at a level of urgency where we can defend and interupt another team’s offense. This was on clear display in the TT game… how TT disrupted our offense but we didn’t disrupt theres. Our talent level is higher so we made the game closer.
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@drgnslayr I can agree with the turning up the players part for sure. Jaybate used to write about amp games vs non-amp games. Which I never really bought fully but maybe partially.
The part I do buy about that theory is that self saves a little something for the games he thinks will be the toughest. Wrinkles as jay are used to say. Different sets, strategies and mindsets for the top opponents. We didn’t see much of that vs Tech maybe because he’s saving stuff for Baylor and UT.
I think self relies on players to bring effort and pump each other up. He often relies on an emotional leader on the floor. I think about graham, and doke in recent years.
I feel like Remy is that guy this year but he’s currently injured. I had hopes that Braun could step up and do it but he hasn’t consistently. We’ve known Och is to cool calm and collected, Dave is too wild, Mitch is too old (jk), and Harris just isn’t it.
Remy looked hobbled vs tech but you could see when he was in, even the way he passed the ball added zip and flash and emotion into the game. Unfortunately without him on the floor right now the guys seem to be lacking that urgency that they will need to take this team to its peak. If they find it, I still believe they can be good enough to win the big 12 AND the national title. And I definitely agree there’s no reason not to try to win both.
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I know you have been around long enough to remember my constant rants about lacking a chip!
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@benshawks08 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
I feel like Remy is that guy this year but he’s currently injured. I had hopes that Braun could step up and do it but he hasn’t consistently. We’ve known Och is to cool calm and collected, Dave is too wild, Mitch is too old (jk), and Harris just isn’t it.
I think Pettiford is that guy. Can’t wait to see him run this show.
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Definitely missed him in this stretch of Remy being injured.
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@BeddieKU23 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
Definitely missed him in this stretch of Remy being injured.
Really hoping this doesn’t derail him. Hoping against hope he can end up the starter next year.
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@BShark Me too. Pettiford is key next season, Harris would be good coming in off the bench - a two-headed point, if you will. Yesufu will be important as well, as either a two starting or first off the bench. We’ll be young, but with alot of depth and athleticism inside and out.
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@BeddieKU23 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
Definitely missed him in this stretch of Remy being injured.
Agreed. I know @BShark was high on this guy from the start and in the limited time I’ve watched him, I think he has “it”. Every move seems to have a purpose and he seems to ooze confidence. It just feels like something good is going to happen whenever he touches the ball. Looking forward to getting him back and giving us that spark we’ve been missing.
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@BShark said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@BeddieKU23 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
Definitely missed him in this stretch of Remy being injured.
Really hoping this doesn’t derail him. Hoping against hope he can end up the starter next year.
Even if Self loved him more then his own son at this point Bobby will have a limited role whenever he comes back unless injury changes that. Self has clearly shown he doesn’t trust anyone that hasn’t played here 5 years already or isn’t 25
